Talk:Buzz Aldrin/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

claiming or indicating he felt forced to defend himself?

He claimed he punched Sibrel because he felt forced to defend himself. Punching someone does not automatically 'indicate' self defense. For great justice. 21:08, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

That misconstrues the new statement: he personally indicated, his punch didn't indicate; he "indicated" rather than "claimed". "Claimed" is a loaded word that connotes "claimed falsely" in this kind of usage; "Kenneth Lay claimed he had no idea Enron was in trouble..." "Indicated" is a neutral substitute. - Reaverdrop 21:16, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I claim that I think that's ok as long as we disambiguate the word 'indicated' from the act of punching. My worry is that we are claiming that the act of punching indicated that he felt the need for self defense! Thanks for discussing it! For great justice. 21:17, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Is Bart 'agressive' or 'assertive'

Agressive has conotations of violence, and Bart was not violent. Assertive implies persistance, which he certainly showed. For great justice. 21:13, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Aggressive doesn't necessarily connote violence. Stalking a total stranger for years, sneaking up on him and his relative on an evening out and insisting that he put his hand on a bible and swear that his Moon landing was not a hoax, is already way beyond justifying "aggressive" and making "assertive" way, way too tame and slanted in his favor to be NPOV. - Reaverdrop 21:18, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

In the context of Buzz's violent outburst, it makes it look as if Bart's thorough investigation is somehow unreasonable. How can we make it clear that Bart was in no way physically agressive? For great justice. 21:23, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

It already doesn't say he did anything physically aggressive... but, per my comments above, this John Hinckley-esque behavior was already far askew from a mere "thorough investigation", and even merely "aggressive" is almost too gentle a description to keep NPOV. The only surprising thing is that Sibrel hadn't already been apprehended by the police for stalking. - Reaverdrop 21:29, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't see what assassination has to do with it. Trying to get a key member of the hoax to swear his innocence doesn't seem unreasonable to me. For great justice. 21:31, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

He tracked him and other astronauts for years, frequently lying to gain access to them, personally confronting them in the midst of their social lives. This is stalking and it is criminal behavior, of a behavioral pattern nearly indistinguishable from John Hinckley's in the years leading up to his encounter with Reagan. Real historical, journalistic and scientific investigators and polemicists do not engage in criminal stalking. Sibrel should already have been in prison, and I have little doubt Aldrin was both legally and morally justified in defending himself and his relative with physical force by that point. But your matter-of-factly referring to the Moon landings as "the hoax" makes your particular point of view clear. - Reaverdrop 22:30, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I presume that if it were criminal behavior, Aldrin would have pressed charges. Your point of view about Aldrin is not relevant. The video is clear, Sibrel does not threaten Aldrin. For great justice. 15:48, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Wrong Arm

Isn't his left arm crooked, not his right? --MosheA 00:34, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Moving Page?

"Buzz Aldrin" is a tad informal. Shouldn't this page more properly be located at "Edwin Aldrin, Jr.", with a "Buzz Aldrin" redirect? Jenolen 10:10, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

He apparently had his name officially changed (see article). AnonMoos 16:58, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Problems Aldrin overcame

I'll admit I only skimmed the article, but I didn't see anything about Aldrin's depression and alcoholism - two big parts of his life. If someone can do a little research and add a passage about these problems, the article would be much more complete. 69.210.56.40 00:10, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Flag fell over

I have removed the claim that Aldrin "revealed" on 13-03-2007 the flag fell over. While he did mention it in that lecture, he has been telling it for years. On a sidenote, I though that in that 13-03-07 lecture he said Armstrong saw it falling over, but most sources say Aldrin saw it. They didn't immediately inform NASA about that, because they didn't want to spoil the fun. But it has been kown for years. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.161.74.202 (talk) 13:45, 16 March 2007 (UTC).

I see the comment has been placed again into the article. Why? It is incorrect. I will not remove it again, but would like to know the argument supporting placing that claim agin into the article, when that claim can be easily proven wrong. I know it's been on the news, but that doesn't make it right. The fact is known for years, and ALdrin has been telling it for years. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.161.74.202 (talk) 11:06, 19 March 2007 (UTC).

I looked it up, it's in Aldrin's 1973 book "Return to Earth", where he states he (Aldin) could see the flag fall over at ascent. I have removed the comment. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nicolas Herdwick (talk • contribs) 11:32, 19 March 2007 (UTC).

Eugene

Only in Wikipedia have I ever seen the name "Buzz Eugene Aldrin" — I've always heard it as "Buzz Aldrin" and believe that he dropped "Eugene" along with "Edwin" when he changed his name.Kevin Forsyth 14:14, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

First on the Moon?

OK, someone go look at the Trivia section and see #9 "Aldrin lobbied very strongly to be the first one out of the lunar module and thus becoming the first man to set foot on the moon on the Apollo 11 mission"

I wasn't alive when this happened, but I think all those books (and wikipedia articles) I've read all correctly state that Armstrong was first on the moon. It seems to be backed up by a source. Yet when I go to the Armstrong page it reads: "...famously known for being the first human ever to set foot on the Moon"

I'm at a loss of words right now. Someone

That just say that he really wanted to be first on the moon, not that he actually WAS the first on the moon.. (he failed in his lobbying campaign obviously)

The sentence was worded in an ambiguous way. I've fixed it by deleting the word "becoming". Pat Berry 04:56, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Dr. Rendezvous

This article says... "due to his inability to talk about anything other than rendezvous operations". I feel this isn't being very fair to Buzz. He got his nickname because he completed his doctoral thesis on space rendezvous. I don't want to change the page because I've gotten my hand slapped for changing pages without the Wiki gods approval, so I'll simply ask that whoever is keeping up with this page please change the line so it reads a little nicer. The way it reads now makes Buzz sound like a babbling idiot. 67.142.130.14 05:56, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

You have correctly identified the source of that nickname. While he might have talked a lot about it indeed, Dr Aldrin got his PhD on rendez-vous, invented strategies for rendez-vous, and practiced them during the Gemini program. So he wasn't called Dr Rendez-Vous as much for talking about it as for being the first astronaut to have a Ph.D and being the reference on the subject. He might have talked a lot about it too, I don't know about that. Will somebody rewrite that point in the article? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nicolas Herdwick (talk • contribs) 11:28, 19 March 2007 (UTC).

Done. Pat Berry 05:00, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

'saving the space program' - source?

What's the source for saying that Deke Slayton credited Aldrin with 'saving the space program'? (It's quoted at the end of the first para under Time as an astronaut in the Biography section.) I seem to remember from Deke! that, while not being exactly derogatory about Aldrin, Slayton wasn't his greatest fan either. I just did a quick skim through the pages where Aldrin's mentioned in the book, and it doesn't say anything about it there. Anybody any clues?--Whoosher 17:41, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

vidio clip removed

i've removed the clip of aldin stepping on the moon. i've looked at the page in IE7, Firefox, and Opera, and in all three i get the following error onscreen "<imagemap>: unrecognized shape at line 3, each line must start with one of: default, rect, circle or poly". if it's not happening for anyone else, then by all means restore it - but it's the only page on wikipedia that i've ever visited that generates this error, so it sure doesn't seem like it can only be me.Anastrophe 06:57, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

following up on myself - i think this may be an internal wikipedia error, rather than somethign wrong with the video clip itself - going way back in the archives - two years - it shows the same error with it. i'll restore in hopes the problem is fixed. Anastrophe 06:57, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Roles in the arts

Anybody else think this section is getting a bit out of hand? Surely, only the most notable roles should be listed here, but I'm not sure of the criteria for choosing which are the most notable roles. IMDB lists Aldrin participating, either as himself or in an acting or voice role, in nearly 50 projects, so presumably the list on this page could get a whole lot longer if it's not managed.--Whoosher 10:21, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

hansen quote

this is just a general comment on process - i noticed that two editors have added hidden commentary to the article, discussing whether a quote qualifies for inclusion in the article. i would respectfully submit, this is what the talk page is for. please discuss it here, rather than within hidden comments within the article. it's much easier for others to address the issues collaboratively when it's out in 'the open'. Anastrophe 08:22, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry about that "hidden" discussion

I presume I'm one of the editors doing a hidden discussion. Sorry to rile people--nothing nefarious going on. It was just that I had so many queries --which I did mention in the "save" subject line--that it seemed simpler to request that people go to the text itself. There, in the best of all worlds, a record of who edited what (a la MSoft Word) would present itself, or editors would sign their changes. Alas, an idiotic and unworkable thought on my part.

The second is more prosaic: I left a note on the Neal Armstrong entry for help in getting into the Aldrin discussion, which, as a newbie, I had forgotten how I had done it before. Again, I'm fully an open wikihead. Best to all. Shlishke 18:24, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Aldrin "too big ego" either should get massively referenced or be cut

I believe this has not been satisfactorily resolved. The hot-wire passage begins with

...or simply that Aldrin had "too big an ego."

which is referenced to Hansen chap. 25, is just too hot a remark to be made w/o a page ref (I know editions change; that can be fixed in the ref list) and a squib there about who said it and on what occasion.

The quote marks in the phrase are weird. They differentiate the text from the other two paraphrases, but all three are presumably from the secondary source Hansen. This muddies the issue. It can be read two ways: Either the author(s) of the Wiki piece are being extra-responsible (or, cya) by quoting exactly from the book for this last bit, and thus need a more particular ref; or, somebody in particular said those exact words, and he or she damn well better have (if only according to Hansen), which requires the exact ref and explanatory squib.

Otherwise it should go. It's a shitty thing to say about anyone, living or dead, and if we're going to be perpetuating a disparagement, we're not in a schoolyard, with a did-you-hear-what-he said mode. Plus it explicitly violates a bunch of Wiki policies.

The sentence appears in the Armstrong entry as well, but the discussion belongs here.

Best to all, Shlishke (talk) 07:35, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Wiki stuff: 1) from WP:CITE

Biographies of living persons should be sourced with particular care, for legal and ethical reasons. All contentious material about living persons must cite a reliable source. Do not wait for another editor to request a source. If you find unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about a living person—whether in an article or on a talk page—remove it immediately. Do not leave it in the article and ask for a source. Do not move it to the talk page. This applies whether the material is in a biography or any other article.

2) The whole article, essentially, of WP:LIVING

I'm checking out of the "ego" business; I made a change in text

End of my [ personal :) ] "ego" thread with revision 00:09 8 December. I replaced the explicit phrase with quotes with a more defensible one lifted from Armstrong article. Hasta la vista! Shlishke (talk) 00:17, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

MILHIST class assessment

I assessed at start due to the absence of citations in the honors section, and becuase that section in its current form seems a little too pop culture-ish to assess as B. TomStar81 (Talk) 06:01, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Plastic Surgery?

From the UFO section:

When Aldrin appeared on The Howard Stern Show on August 15, 2007, Stern asked him about the supposed UFO sighting. Aldrin confirmed that there was no such sighting of anything deemed extraterrestrial, and said they were and are "99.9 percent" sure that the object was the detached panel.[14][15][16][17] He also said that he had plastic surgery.[18]

I am going to remove that last sentence. It has nothing to do with the supposed UFO sighting. JBFrenchhorn (talk) 22:46, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Is Buzz Aldrin Swedish-American?

I saw him in the article Swedish American and he is listed as one in the categories at the bottom. Is he?

Aldrin is Swedish name, indeed. I think his family is from Scania (like Charles Lindbergh's), but I am not sure. // JiPe (217.208.136.32 (talk) 00:25, 15 January 2009 (UTC))

Biography and band

The Trivia section currently includes this statement: "Aldrin's 1989 biography Men From Earth was the inspiration for the band of the same name." That's nonsense. First of all, Aldrin's autobiography is Return to Earth. Men From Earth is not a biography and was not published in 1989. And if you actually follow that link and look at the band's website, you'll learn that the band's name was not inspired by Aldrin, but by the TV show Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons.

I'm going to delete this statement from the article. Pat Berry 04:48, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

His name Buz was his pilot name I know this because he was a friend of my Dad who flew with may of these guys and knew Buz. It came from a term of a flyby, "Biz" they would say lets biz tower or base to shake up the brass.

It was fun having a dad that knew all these guys from the X15 progam in plamdale to the cape in Florida. I remember asking him the same question he said thats his pilots name son. Terry Fadden son of late Mr.CJ Fadden North American,Rockwell's "CJ" Retired Decorated "Mr T2 Trainer". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.73.212.235 (talk) 08:06, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Absence of gravity on the Moon?

This is cut and pasted from the article on Bizz Aldrin - And because of the absence of air and gravity on the moon, both Aldrin's and Neil Armstrong's footprints are still there, untouched. Without human interaction or other disturbances the prints will likely be there for an indefinite period of time. [8]

Really - no gravity on the moon? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.70.160.153 (talk) 20:47, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Sibrel punch

Okay, this page now has no mention of anything about the Sibrel punch. This should definitely be mentioned, if not have discussion about the entire incident. Tithonfury (talk) 02:01, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

What's his present full legal name?

Yes, Buzz Aldrin is how most people know him, but since this is an encyclopedic work, why not follow convention and have the lead paragraph start off with his complete legal name, as in:

Buzz Eugene Aldrin, Jr., (born Edwin Eugene Aldrin, Jr., January 20, 1930) is an American aviator and astronaut who was the Lunar Module pilot on Apollo 11 etceteras....

Yes, it looks a little unusual, but we really need to know his full present legal name before anything should be done. Did he only change his first name, or did he also eliminate his middle name at the same time?

Also, for those who didn't catch it, an external link has been added to the interview he did with the New York Times in commemoration of the first moon landing's 40th anniversary (repeated here: New York Times interview, June 2009: Questions for Buzz Aldrin -The Man on the Moon)

--Signed: Harry-dotting-the-I's-&-crossing-the-T's-Zilber, a.k.a.HarryZilber (talk) 04:12, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

deep diving astronaut

"Aldrin is the only NASA astronaut that has participated in a deep-submergence dive.[citation needed]"

I believe this is not accurate. cf the work of Malcom Scott Carpenter in the US Navy Sealab experments. I would like to discuss this before making any changes.

I am making a small correction under Personal Life

" He is employed as a car salesman. " to read "He was employed..." Throckmorton Guildersleeve (talk) 12:58, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Page Lock/protection

I was thinking, we should add a page lock (or some sort of protection) for this page--considering the anniversary. It would be a prime target for vandals and trolls--24.210.221.242 (talk) 21:23, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

This article has been vandalised several times claiming that Aldrin is dead which is clearly not true. Definitely needs locking and reverting to its original state - every time I remove the parts about him being dead they go straight back on.

who keeps sayinghe is dead. this is very unpleasant. what is the matter with some people... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.213.97.22 (talk) 22:07, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Criticism of NASA

I've added details about Aldrin's criticism of NASA's vision and objectives. I included it in its own subsection but if another editor feels it could be worked into an already existing section, feel free to have at it.
--K10wnsta (talk) 22:01, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Guest Host of 5/17 "Monday Night RAW?"

Aldrin is expected to be announced as the next Guest Host of RAW on the 5/10 edition (when Flava Flav will host). Should we include this once this announcement is made Monday on "RAW"?98.209.57.0 (talk) 00:05, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 70.161.132.64, 18 May 2010

{{editsemiprotected}}

He was on dancing with the stars in 2010 he did very well for his age.

70.161.132.64 (talk) 23:12, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

The article already mentions this fact in the section Pop culture and media: "ABC announced that he would be a contestant on the 10th season of Dancing with the Stars and ... [o]n Monday March 22, 2010, Buzz and Ashly scored 14 points out of possible 30 points during competition ...". Please replace the {{editsemiprotected}} if there is a change you wish to see made, and include the text you wish to see changed and the text to replace it. Thank you. Intelligentsium 23:18, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Science Fiction books

Is there a reason the two books Aldrin wrote in collaboration with John Barnes aren't mentioned? I couldn't remember their titles and came to his wikipedia entry thinking it would list them but they aren't there. The books themselves have entries, I think it would be useful to link to them. Encounter_With_Tiber. The_Return_(2000_novel). Ghworg (talk) 18:54, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Supported. 82.163.24.100 (talk) 21:56, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Criticism of Global Warming

Aldrin has been publicly skeptical of the AGW movement. Should this be included on his page? JettaMann (talk) 14:22, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

If a valid news source can be cited, I find nothing wrong with adding it to the article. There are other mentions of him being critical of NASA among other things. 64.138.206.249 (talk) 03:09, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Adding a new external link?

Hi,

I hope this is not too a silly a question to ask here.

I am host an amateur astronomy podcaster and would like to include an interview I recorded with Buzz Aldrin during his visit to the UK in 2008. The interview is available at this link http://astrotalkuk.org/2008/04/20/episode12journey-to-the-moon/

I would like to add that link to "External Links" section. How can I do that? Perhaps this page's moderator can do it?

Thanks in advance. Gurbir2704 (talk) 13:57, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

It seems comprehensive enough for a valid external link. I'll go ahead and add it. ThemFromSpace 20:16, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Threw out UFO sighting story

I reverted the anonymous edit of 24 July 17:20, which claimed that Aldrin confirmed in an interview that the Apollo 11 crew saw UFOs on the flight. As everyone knows, "UFOlogy" is a deeply unscientific and fact-free discipline and should not be dignified in this way, unless verifiable proof is presented. Apart from this general situation, my problem with the edit in question is that the two sources cited are an entry on www.ufoevidence.org and a Scottish tabloid newspaper printing two-inch-big headlines. In other words, the sources are squarely ridiculous. --Geheimdienst 20:44, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

It's all the news today for some reason; not just dubious sources. I guess a documentary came out? — Omegatron 21:04, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Attempts to determine the nature of unidentified flying objects can not honestly be said to be unscientific by nature. It is a field of study that has been plagued by hoaxters and pseudo-scientific characters to be sure, but that does not mean UFOs don't exist (they do - it is their nature which can not be honestly said to have been determined), nor that attempts to determine their cause should be dismissed out of hand (an action that would be dogmatic and unscientific itself). Either way, the interesting piece is that he has chosen to make the claim after so long and also stated that the space agency covered it up. Regardless of whether or not the claim is true or whether, if true, it was actually aliens isn't the point. Him making such controversial statements is noteworthy either way. 208.3.253.171 22:01, 24 July 2006 (UTC) Christopher

The documentary is going to be on the science (Discovery) channel over the next 4 days (according to tvguide) [1]. I'll be making an effort to watch for this clip (about 15mins into the show apparently).

Buzz definitely said these things - check out the documentary yourself. It's worth noting that the sighting of an unidentified flying object does not mean there were aliens - only that there was an object that was unidentified. The only language entered here referring to aliens has to do with Buzz not reporting the find directly due to a fear that it would be interpreted as aliens and they would be ordered to turn back. There is nothing pseudo-scientific here. Of most worthy note, IMO, is his claim that the space agency covered it up. 208.3.253.171 22:01, 24 July 2006 (UTC) Christopher

The crew of Apollo 11 did actually see a UFO. It was later determined that it was one of the LM garage panels floating about 100 miles off. I'm sure this could be worked into either this article or the Apollo 11 article proper.35.11.183.95 01:35, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

In his 13-03-2007 lecture, Aldrin said that it was a panel, but because they didn't know which of the 4 panels it was, it was indeed undentified. He laughs at the "UFO" status of the sighting himself. And about the agency covering it up: the crew didn't mention it to NASA until after the mission because they didn't want to look like fools seeing UFO's, so if anyone was "covering up", it was the Apollo 11 crew. Instead of notifying ground control of what they saw, they just asked where the rocket stage was. Upon hearing it was over 6000 miles away, they concluded it must have been one of the panels. They didn't inform NASA about the sighting until after the mission, after which it was confirmed that indeed most likely it was one of the panels. I don't know how long it took before that got public though.

This does not belong in Buzz Aldrin's encyclopedia article. What is wrong with you people? Please delete this. 76.170.29.216 (talk) 06:45, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Skepticism of anthropogenic global warming

First line says:

In 2009, Aldrin said he did no believe humans were causing current climate change: "I think the climate has been changing for billions of years.

The "no" should be changed to "not":

In 2009, Aldrin said he did not believe humans were causing current climate change: "I think the climate has been changing for billions of years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.194.54.33 (talk) 20:21, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

 Fixed - Good catch, if you see anymore, just post it here and someone will fix it.--NavyBlue84 02:15, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

LEM pilot

Aldrin is usually cited as the Apollo 11 LEM pilot and yet Armstrong landed the LEM on the moon. Anyone explain? Wessexboy (talk) 14:56, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

"Lunar Module Pilot" is the crew title, not the actual job description. The commander actually has the assignment of piloting the lunar module. I believe that Alan Bean is the only Lunar Module Pilot who actually piloted the lunar module. If I recall correctly Pete Conrad surreptitiously gave him controls on the far side of the moon, outside of Houston's monitoring and control; I believe this was during the return to the command module. TJRC (talk) 22:02, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Bart Sibrel section

It seems to me that it the Bart Sibrel incident shouldn't be included in the article. This man initiated that situation for the very purpose of generating controversy. Bart Sibrel is a basically a lunatic. I don't like the idea that a lunatic can force their way onto an international hero's article simply by harassing them. In my estimation, that incident, punch or no punch, is completely non-notable in comparison to Buzz's actual life accomplishments. It's kind of a slap in the face to Buzz for us to include it. Jason Quinn (talk) 05:33, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Apollo 11 communion -- secret or not??

In the section about Aldrin's NASA career, it is mentioned that "he gave himself Communion on the surface of the Moon, but he kept it secret" because of previous problems with religion on NASA spacecraft. A link is given to the page about the Apollo 8 Genesis reading so I clicked it. On that page, it says, "on the Apollo 11 mission, Buzz Aldrin received communion on the lunar surface shortly after landing. Although he did not keep his actions secret, he only said a non-religious sentence on the intercom, and read from the scripture off-air." The source quoted on the Apollo 8 Genesis Reading page, http://www.snopes.com/glurge/communion.asp is pretty clear that it was NOT a secret, he just didn't read the scripture on the air. Unless someone can find a better source that tells otherwise, I'm pretty sure the phrase "he kept it secret" is totally incorrect here.

By the way: I'm not going to change this now. I'm leaving that up to others to review, since I know nothing about this topic and just noticed a mismatch between pages. Guypersonson (talk) 19:19, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Article semi-protected for two months

Due to persistent IP vandalism, the article will be protected for the next two months. IP editors with a legitimate edit request may ask for it here. Thanks. Jusdafax 10:47, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

"Regrettably" isn't NPOV

"[[Regrettably, Sibrel suffered no permanent injury." - Regrettably? That's not really NPOV, hoping that people suffer injuries I do not know when but he went on Letterman after he punched Sibrel. It was during the section where Dave answers mail from viewers. One viewer wrote in asking if Dave believed someone has went to the moon. Dave said he believed so or something. Then Buzz came out and said no, "We were just trying to beat the damn Ruskies(sp?)" or something like that.

Should Aldrin's appearance on The Simpsons be mentioned twice? Gildir, Jan 17, 2006

I have now been bold and deleted the second reference to The Simpsons. Gildir, Jan 19, 2006

This isn't Buzz Aldrin Fan'opedia - an attempt at neutrality when dealing with him punching someone in the face would be nice! 67.40.249.122 05:12, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

And the facts that lead up to it, for instance the slander/libel by Sibrel. Bubba73 (talk), 17:16, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Are represented - I'm sure you read the passage in question - "In September, 2002, Bart Sibrel's repeated demands (over several years) that Aldrin swear an oath on the Bible that he had walked on the Moon, or admit that it was all a hoax, came to a head. Aldrin had pointedly ignored Sibrel, refusing to swear an oath, and Sibrel was becoming much more aggressive with Aldrin and several other Apollo astronauts. Sibrel often gained access to the astronauts by lying, claiming to represent organizations that he does not, and assuming false identities. When he approached Aldrin in September 2002, he cornered Aldrin and a young female relative, stood in their way as they tried to leave the area and shoving a Bible towards Aldrin several times, called Aldrin a "a coward, a liar, and a thief". Aldrin punched Sibrel in the face, claiming that he felt forced to defend himself and his companion. Sibrel suffered no permanent injury. Although the Beverly Hills police investigated the incident, charges were dismissed. (See here for a video clip of the incident.)" 67.40.249.122 17:54, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Aldrin doesn't have to sweet on the Bible for Sibrel. A person (in the US) only has to do that for a legal court. Sibrel is at fault here. And even if Aldin did swear on a stack of Bibles, Sibrel and others like him wouldn't believe it. Bubba73 (talk), 18:07, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting that he does, merely reporting what happened. 67.40.249.122 18:09, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Because of the large number of people who believe that the first lunar landing was a hoax, shouldn't the first paragraph of this entry say something like, "...is an American pilot and astronaut who, as believed by many, (or something to that effect) became the second human to set foot on the Moon..." in order to make the entry more neutral?

no. Fact is not decided by popular vote.

Yes, this should be mentioned. For great justice. 17:02, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely not. Just because a tiny minority of the population is uneducated doesn't mean we have to mention them. Apollo was real, period. Don't bother arguing. The hoax claims have been debunked repeatedly. Please, give. up. --J. Atkins ^{(talk - contribs)} 20:19, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

those debunking attempts are mostly terrible and only the gullible would believe them — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.13.53.93 (talk) 02:12, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Mr Aldrins not swearing on the Bible could have something to do with his Masonic Membership. While Masons swear on the Bible in Court etc. To use the Bible in a 'Stunt' like that may be seen as disrespecting the Deity, as would using any Holy Book. Masons place a high importance on respecting all Faiths.Johnwrd (talk) 02:35, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Edwin Aldrin dedicated and ultimately risked his life many, many times for science, NASA, and the USA. Men such as he can let their accomplishments do the talking. I could see just about any man loosing his temper with a person such as Sibrel especially after being called coward and the rest of the garbage that was spouted.

As for Sibrel, a man who invents lies and feigns falseness simply to gain a position allowing him to put a person on the spot, does the fact that he disseminates lies and feigns indentities to gain position prove that he is dedicated to truth or does his usage of prevarication and its dubious outcomes indicate something far more ?

Should the layperson need proof of the landing simpy view the footage of the astronauts as they move across the surface of the moon. Look closely at both the horizontal and vertical componenents of the image. You will find the horizontal component to be very quick as if the man in focus was feeling the effects of 1/6th gravity. A 180 lb man with a 100 lb suit now only weighs 40 lbs, is used to carrying a 180lb load. feels a bit like like superman, and bolts across the landscape with alacrity. Now look at the vertical componenent and focus on the belt area. Notice how slow the up and down motion is and how wide the belt area traces a parabolic arc. It is as though the person in focus is feeling the effects of a much weaker gravitational force. If this footage was spoofed by simply speeding-up the camera, both vectors would be appear rapid. How does one spoof only one vector? Redstone Engr.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.127.181.211 (talk) 20:34, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Now buzz aldrin is on dancing with the stars!!go buzz —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jalc12 (talk • contribs) 23:57, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

I removed a section of this article that alleged Aldrin was a freemason.

The source used to back this outlandish claim was a conspiracy theory website of extremely questionable veracity. I would like to request that this page be locked from edits contributing to such claims. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.108.77.245 (talk) 01:51, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Year of HS graduation?

I don't have the cited source available to me right now, but did Aldrin graduate high school in 1946 or 1947? Since he was born in January 1930, if he graduated in 1946, he was only 16. Did he skip a grade, or did the school system allow early admission? Hard to tell if this mini-"edit war" is based on vandalism or not. JustinTime55 (talk) 20:57, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Place of Birth?

I'm not sure what the rules are for Place of Birth...although Aldrin may have been born at a hospital in Glen Ridge, it is well-known that he lived, grew up and graduated from high school in the town of Montclair, NJ not Glen Ridge. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.215.33.194 (talk) 19:02, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

The hospital now known as Mountainside Hospital straddles Glen Ridge and Montclair. Most of it is in Montclair. The hospital says they are in Montclair, and list the address as; "HackensackUMC Mountainside

One Bay Avenue Montclair, NJ 07042", but you can also find the address listed as: 1 Bay Ave, Glen Ridge, NJ. My daughter was born there and the birth certificate says Glen Ridge. DavidRavenMoon (talk) 17:51, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Place of birth (II)

Problem , Grew up in Montclair NJ Not Glen Ridge nj — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.92.108.125 (talk) 18:23, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

We have two citation footnotes in the text which verify that he was actually born in a hospital bordering the town, and that his birth certificate says Glen Ridge. That does not contradict that he grew up in Montclair, and is what we have to go with. Please stop changing it. JustinTime55 (talk) 20:05, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, people born at Mountainside Hospital have Glen Ridge on their birth certificates, even though the hospital lists itself as being 1 Bay Ave, Montclair, NJ. DavidRavenMoon (talk) 17:56, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Archiving talk

This talk page has 42 43 sections, and goes back almost a decade, and old dead conversations no longer being monitored are getting noncontemporaneous responses. Unless someone objects, I will turn on auto-archiving to clean it up. TJRC (talk) 23:31, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

No objections in almost a week, so I'm turning on archiving. TJRC (talk) 00:29, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 June 2014

Please edit the "Military Career" section of this article. It states that "[Buzz Aldrin] once flew a F117 on an experimental flight at Groom Lake."

Aldrin retired from active duty in 1972 and the F-117 Nighthawk (commonly known as the "Stealth fighter") did not fly until 1981. If there is any evidence for this it should be cited. Herocydides (talk) 03:25, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Yup - unsourced, and implausible. I've removed it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:53, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

I would like to see the Bart Sibrel quote changed

I noticed that this page isn't editable by me, so I figured I'd come to that talk page. I would like to see the Bart Sibrel quote amended to include the full accusation he made at Aldrin. Currently, it reads that Sibrel called him "a liar and a thief", but I think the article would benefit from the full (and more accurate) quote "You're a coward, and a liar, and a thief." I feel that omission of the the accusation of cowardice doesn't accurately describe the gravity of the situation, considering the risks he had taken. Thanks 50.174.135.49 (talk) 04:17, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

What day did Armstrong and Aldrin step onto the Moon?

If you, like me, are one of millions of older Americans living in the Eastern time zone, you probably remember watching this late on July 20, the same day they landed. President Nixon's White House phone log records he spoke to the astronauts just before going to bed, ~11:00 PM.

Watch out, trick question! The WP:WikiProject Spaceflight community has established a consensus (somewhere, it might have been on another talk page) that we should use UTC for off-world events, since no extraterrestrial time zones have yet been established, and of course we wish to avoid regional bias. Since it was after 3 AM London time, it qualifies as July 21 in UTC. Please don't "correct" it to July 20. JustinTime55 (talk) 19:39, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

The consensus in question can be found here: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Spaceflight/Archive_5#Spaceflight article standards and conventions JustinTime55 (talk) 21:06, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 July 2014

Under section 4 Personal life… the last comment reads “Aldrin is a Freemason, a member of Montclair Lodge # 144 of New Jersey.” I would like the comment to read as “Aldrin is a 50 year Freemason, a member of Montclair Lodge # 144 of New Jersey and Clear Lake Lodge # 1417 of Texas.”

Reference 40 (page 5) already details this information.

Thank you, Travis M. Major Clear Lake Masonic Lodge No. 1417 travismmajor@gmail.com

76.30.2.8 (talk) 04:59, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. The reference you directed me to stated nothing about being a Freemason for 50 years. —cyberpower ^Chat_Online 10:22, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Notable appearance?

Voice-acting the epilogue (as "Stargazer") in Mass Effect 3... -- megA (talk) 21:35, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

EDIT: Sorry, it's in a different section than I had expected... -- megA (talk) 21:47, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Birth Place

In the Biography section of the article it mentions that Buzz Aldrin was born in Montclair, NJ. However the right column of summary information states his birth place as Glen Ridge, NJ. I believe this is due to the confusion as to where the hospital in which he was born, Mountainside, exists. I can't answer if the hospital is part of Montclair or Glen Ridge, and therefore can't answer where Buzz Aldrin was born, but the Wikipedia article should at least be consistent.209.137.140.218 (talk) 20:07, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Bringing the following back from archive 1: (looks like another FAQ) JustinTime55 (talk) 20:23, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Place of Birth?

I'm not sure what the rules are for Place of Birth...although Aldrin may have been born at a hospital in Glen Ridge, it is well-known that he lived, grew up and graduated from high school in the town of Montclair, NJ not Glen Ridge. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.215.33.194 (talk) 19:02, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

The hospital now known as Mountainside Hospital straddles Glen Ridge and Montclair. Most of it is in Montclair. The hospital says they are in Montclair, and list the address as; "HackensackUMC Mountainside

One Bay Avenue Montclair, NJ 07042", but you can also find the address listed as: 1 Bay Ave, Glen Ridge, NJ. My daughter was born there and the birth certificate says Glen Ridge. DavidRavenMoon (talk) 17:51, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Place of birth (II)

Problem , Grew up in Montclair NJ Not Glen Ridge nj — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.92.108.125 (talk) 18:23, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

We have two citation footnotes in the text which verify that he was actually born in a hospital bordering the town, and that his birth certificate says Glen Ridge. That does not contradict that he grew up in Montclair, and is what we have to go with. Please stop changing it. JustinTime55 (talk) 20:05, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, people born at Mountainside Hospital have Glen Ridge on their birth certificates, even though the hospital lists itself as being 1 Bay Ave, Montclair, NJ. DavidRavenMoon (talk) 17:56, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I just rewrote the paragraph to make the dual location of the hospital and the town where he grew up explicitly clear. I don't know what more we can do. JustinTime55 (talk) 20:35, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

I've just added a FAQ to this page, so it will remain even when the discussions roll off to the archives again. TJRC (talk) 03:16, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

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Depression and alcoholism

It would be instructive to hear an opinion - either from Aldrin or his therapists - as to whether these problems stemmed directly from the effects of space-travel, or just from reactions to overnight fame. Valetude (talk) 12:29, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

First Person to Pee on the Moon

I propose removal of this post. It is obviously fictitious, and I will remove it in June 2016. LorenzoB (talk) 05:15, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

It's sourced to National Geographic, which in turn bases the statement on Aldrin's own statement, and another source. Doesn't seem fictitious to me. One can argue that it's not appropriate for a Wikipedia article, but the veracity doesn't seem to be in question. TJRC (talk) 21:52, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Source for "freemason" category?

Usually categories must be reflected by sourced article content. This doesn't seem to be the case, because this article is in Category:American freemasons, but there's no content in the article saying this. Can we get a source and put it in the article? Or am I looking through it too quickly? --BurritoBazooka (talk) 02:29, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

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Talking in article

“…US DoD regulations clearly state however all US military/uniformed service* awards take precedence over civilian awards or those from non-uniformed services... *Note the US military/uniformed services include: the US Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard, NOAA, and PHHS not, for instance, the USPS, FBI, CIA, CAP, NASA, or the Office of the President, etc.”

Earlier I posted the previously statements however I now stand corrected based on other/newer regulations I have since found in the course of more research. Subsequently I have italicized the two key words which make these statement untrue.

For further clarity note the confusion, for some, may lie in the fact US military awards do come before civilian awards MOST times but not ALL the time. For example US military personal decorations (e.g. Medal of Honor, Navy Cross, Purple Heart, etc.) do indeed come first then US military unit awards THEN civilian personal decorations (e.g. Presidential Medal of Freedom, Congressional Space Medal of Honor, NASA Distinguish Service Medal, etc.) then civilian unit citations, then US military awards (e.g. National Defense Medal, Korea Service Medal, Global War on Terrorism Medal, etc.) and then foreign personal decoration, unit citations, international awards, state honors, etc. Doctordrew (talk) 04:00, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

Mother's Name

It is given as "Marion (Moon) Gaddys". To me, that suggests a nick-name of "Moon". Or a birth surname of "Moon" changed by marriage to "Gaddys".

Several sources on the web, eg http://familypedia.wikia.com/wiki/Marion_Gaddys_Moon_(1903-1968)and https://www.geni.com/people/Marion-Aldrin/6000000004906445002 and http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/21/magazine/21fob-q4-t.html state that her family name is "Moon", with her father being named "Faye Arnold Moon". And none that I found lists a marriage to a "Gaddys", just one marriage to Edwin Eugene Aldrin Sr. RobertMartinAyers (talk) 18:22, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Unverified, but I'd guess Gaddys was her middle name. Since she was the daughter of a chaplain, I don't think it likely she was previously married. I changed the name to conform to MOS recommendation using "nee", and removed "Gaddys" pending verification. JustinTime55 (talk) 19:40, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Neil Armstrong's bio, First Man, calls her "Marion Gaddys Moon Aldrin". Hansen, James R. (November 27, 2012). First Man: The Life of Neil A. Armstrong. Simon and Schuster. p. 349. ISBN 9781476727813. TJRC (talk) 23:30, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

And Aldrin's Return to Earth uses "Marion Gaddys Moon" as her name prior to marriage. Aldrin, Buzz; Warga, Wayne (December 15, 2015). Return to Earth. Open Road Media. ISBN 9781504026444. Her name was Marion Gaddys Moon until the day she married my father... TJRC (talk) 23:35, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 July 2017

Delete this. Reason: People feel sad at deaths of friends, family. But that is not a "significant" –like in this article– part of personal life.

"Aldrin commented on the death of his Apollo 11 colleague, Neil Armstrong, saying that he was "deeply saddened by the passing. I know I am joined by millions of others in mourning the passing of a true American hero and the best pilot I ever knew. I had truly hoped that on July 20th, 2019, Neil, Mike and I would be standing together to commemorate the 50th Anniversary of our Moon landing...Regrettably, this is not to be."[71][72] Fellow Apollo astronaut Edgar Mitchell died on the eve of the 45th anniversary of Mitchell's lunar landing.[73] His death was widely reported, and fellow Apollo astronaut Buzz Aldrin tweeted the following morning, "It's the 45th Anniv of the #Apollo14 landing on the moon & yesterday we lost another Lunar Pioneer Edgar Mitchell."[73] 2405:205:1006:ED2:607A:5308:AA91:8EC7 (talk) 10:36, 11 July 2017 (UTC)"

Not done: as per WP:CENSOR. regards, DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 13:43, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

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Category

How come someone removed this article from Category:Apollo 11? This article most definitely belongs there.--Solomonfromfinland (talk) 23:49, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

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Depression and alcoholism

His autobiographies... both provide accounts of his struggles with clinical depression and alcoholism in the years following his NASA career.

Were these problems caused by the pressures of fame, or by the physical or psychological effects of the space journey itself? We ought to know. Valetude (talk) 23:14, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Buzz

It might be worth mentioning that Aldrin legally changed his name to Buzz. Patrick Moore is a source for this, but I don't have reference details. --Peter Ells (talk) 00:25, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion, but it is already in the first paragraph of the article. Kees08 (Talk) 22:50, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

Work list

Anyone can work on any of these points if they wish.

• Expand intro |  Partly done We need more from the past few decades especially about Mars. We might need to trim what I wrote as well.--- Coffeeandcrumbs 23:13, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
• Replace IMDB references |  Done --- Coffeeandcrumbs 10:25, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
• Expand early life section
• Finish converting to sfn references |  Done --- Coffeeandcrumbs 08:44, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
  • Not sure what to do with the Hacker citation; the links are directly to the pages. I suppose leave out of sfn and keep as a 'normal' citation? |  Resolved --- Coffeeandcrumbs 23:17, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
• Write about astronaut selection, move to a different section
• Apollo 11 section needs major expansion, should be somewhat similar to Armstrong's (a comment from FAC was to include training for Apollo 11, for example)
• Awards and honors needs prosified
• Trim external links down
  •  Done Kees08 (Talk) 05:07, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
• Finish citing filmography
  •  Done Kees08 (Talk) 05:04, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
• Decide if he did two or three spacewalks on Gemini 12. Starting to lean towards three, seems like a lot of sources are counting his standup as an EVA. Incorporate into the article as necessary
• Verify his ancestry (Armstrong's was wrong)

This list will be expanded as I scrub the article. Kees08 (Talk) 03:20, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

@Kees08: Do you mind if I use {{harvnb}} instead of {{sfn}}? The output is identical but sfn is not editable in WP:VE. With VE, it would take me almost no time to convert the whole article. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 04:39, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

I have no preference either way. Fire away! Kees08 (Talk) 06:17, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

As for a secondary source for his alcoholism/depression, I believe both Collins' book and A Man on the Moon talk about it with some degree of detail. I will try to take a look later today on that. Thanks for all the help thus far! Kees08 (Talk) 18:59, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

No mention of Freemasonry

Why is there no mention of his involvement in Freemasonry? He was raised to the sublime degree of Master Mason and was a longtime member of Montclair Lodge No. 144 in Montclair, New Jersey which is now known as Essex Lodge No. 7 in Caldwell, New Jersey. He eventually demitted from New Jersey and joined a lodge in his new home town in Texas. I think this is very important to mention. YborCityJohn (talk) 08:07, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Buzz Aldrin/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Balon Greyjoy (talk · contribs) 03:47, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

Looking forward to completing this review! Giving the article and the talk page a once-over shows it's already in pretty good shape! Balon Greyjoy (talk) 03:47, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

I have begun adding comments. Please feel free to begin making changes! Balon Greyjoy (talk) 01:35, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

1. Is it well written?

   A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct:

   Lead

   Include "Col, USAF Ret." after his birthday in the lead sentence

   Not doing this, as it conflicts with MOS::BIO, and another editor will just ask for it to be rtaken out again. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:35, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

   Change "Command Pilot" to either "fighter pilot" or just "pilot." Command pilot is just a status in his flying career and a reflection of years of flying/total hours.

    Done Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:35, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

   Change the intro for "Commisioned in the United..." to something along the lines of "He commissioned in the US Air Force, and served as a jet fighter pilot..." You have a repetitive sentence structure with its previous sentence.

   Y Re-worded. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:35, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

   Remove the part about "flight commander" and just say that he later served in the 22d Fighter Squadron. Flight commander is an administrative duty, and much less significant in terms of responsibility than its Army-equivalent of company commander. If you would like to leave it, it should at least read "a flight commander in the 22d Fighter Squadron," as there are multiple flights per squadron.

   Y Removed the whole sentence as unimportant. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:35, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

   "One of his first NASA missions was on Gemini 12" This doesn't really make sense, as it was his first flying mission, not one of his first. My guess is that you meant that he had previously non-flying responsibilites with NASA, but this isn't very clear.

   Y Re-worded. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:35, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

   "he successfully proved that extravehicular activity (EVA) could be performed by astronauts, spending over 5 hours outside the craft, thus achieving the goals of the Gemini program and paving the way for the Apollo program" A couple things here: 1) Remove "successfully," as "proved" denotes the success of his mission 2) It's not clear how he proved the success of EVAs, as several had been accomplished on Gemini 4, 9, 10, and 11. Aldrin had the best EVAs by the metric of time and not getting tired, but this was also built on the previous EVAs by White, Cernan, Collins, and Gordon. 3) While EVAs were part of the Gemini program, I think it's a stretch to say that Aldrin was the one who achieved the goals of the entire program. 4) Since the entire Gemini program was to prepare for the Apollo program, it's redundant to include this in the leading paragraph after stating that the goals of the Gemini program had been met.

   Y I don't think that was the intention. I have re-worked the text to make it clearer. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:35, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

   Move "Dr. Rendezvous" back to the sentence about his doctoral thesis; also, I would put the name in quotes.

    Done Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:35, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

   Combine the facts about Gemini 12's rendezvous and docking with the sentence about the EVAs, and just have a one sentence summary of the mission.

    Done Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:35, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

   Combine the sentences about the religious ceremony and taking communion.

    Done Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:35, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

   Remove the part about rejection from the NASA astronaut program because of being a test pilot; I think that is too detailed for the lead paragraph. Instead, talk about how Aldrin became Commandant after leaving NASA, and retired from the Air Force in 1971.

   Y I liked the bit about him not being a test pilot though. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:35, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

   Inlcude more about his life post-NASA/USAF.

   Early life

   Can you expand on the career of Aldrin Sr. (his branch of service, his rank, years of service, his job, major accomplishments, etc.)? It's vague to say that he is a career military man. I can't point to specifics, but I remember from some astronaut's autobiographies that they described Aldrin Sr. as a powerful man who advocated heavily for Buzz. In First Man, Hansen discusses how Aldrin Jr.'s identity was heavily influenced by his father. It would be significant to discuss his career.

   I wouldn't have described him that way; he left the Regular Army before Buzz was born. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:50, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

   I understand that he wasn't still active duty at the same time as Buzz, but I think his career deserves more of an explanation than "career military." Balon Greyjoy (talk) 15:06, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

   Mike Collins' dad is what I would have described as a career military man. I have created an article on Gene Aldrin. Will update Buzz's article soon. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:34, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

   Nice job with the Gene Aldrin page. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 05:11, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

   Y Added a bit. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:11, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

   Shorten the sentence about the nickname. Do you have the name for his sister? My take on it is "His sister (her name) misprounounced "brother" as "buzzer," earning him the nickname "Buzz," which became his legal first name in 1988.

   Fay? Yes, she's still alive too. The "th" sound is hard for many childrern. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:34, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

   Ooops. Fay died on 28 February 2012; Madeleine on 22 July 2015. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:39, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

    Done Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:11, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

   Remove the "During the childhood years," as the Boy Scout information is already in the "Early life" section, and it is assumed that his Boy Scout years were during childhood.

    Done Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:11, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

   I would reorder the information about his high school years, as the current version emphasizes his time on the football team, which is not a significant fact for the remainder of his life (as he didn't play beyond the high school level). My take is "Aldrin graudated from Montclair High School with an A grade point average, and was the starting center for the school's undefeated 1946 state champion team."

   Since the graduation date is in the previous sentence, change "After graduating in 1947," to "After high school," and change "went to" to "attended"

   Y He didn't. Corrected. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:11, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

   Military career

   My feedback for this entire section is to expand on it. There's a 6-year period between Aldrin's commissioning and beginning his doctorate that involves going to the Korean War, seving in Europe during the Cold War, and working as a gunnery instructor. It seems like there should be more information about this time period, such as major events, projects that Aldrin worked on, locates that he was deployed, etc.

   Personal preference for me is to include college experience, including service academies, in the early life section, and leave them separate from military career. However, I think this is a gray area.

    Done I generally put everything up to graduation under "early life". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:02, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

   Combine the first two sentences about his career at West Point. Remove "good start," as that is subjective. Also, it needs to be clarified that USMA is referred to as West Point. I know it's fairly common knowledge, but it should be explained for the sake of unfamiliar readers.

   Y "United States Military Academy at West Point, New York" should do the trick.

   Is there any more information about Aldrin's time at West Point, such as training events he went on, extracurriculars in which he was involved, etc.?

   Looking for it. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:02, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

   The time period of Aldrin commissioning and then going to the Korean War should be greatly expanded upon. First, I would include a note explaining to readers that the Air Force Academy did not yet exist, which is why Aldrin went to an Army school and then commissioned in USAF. Second, explain Aldrin's training, such as the different locations that he attended pilot training. Also, include his initial squadron that he deployed with to the Korean peninsula.

   Y Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:02, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

   Remove "Mikoyan-Gurevich" as that is the company that produces the MiG-15, and not a relevant fact.

    Done Actually, it was the bureau that designed it, not the company that produced it. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:02, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

   "After the war" should have a more specific date/time, such as "After returning from Korea in 195X, Aldrin was assigned"

   Y Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:02, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

   Remove the sentence about Squadron Officer School, at is was (at the time) a 12 week course, and isn't some significant event in a given USAF officer's career.

   Be that as it may, I think it was a significant event at the time, and demonstrates his career progression, which was still following the usual course. I have included it in the bios of many officers. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 07:46, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

   Is there anything more to add about Aldrin's service in Europe?

   Y Against hope, I found something. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 07:46, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

   "under the auspices of the Air Force Institute of Technology" reads awkwardly, and doesn't explain the connection between the two schools. My take is, "Through a program with the Air Force Institute of Technology, Aldrin attended the Massachusetts Institute of Technology"

   While the Air Force is generally considered a high tech outfit, the "hump" of officers commissioned during World War II meant that in the 1950s its officers had a lower level of education on average than their counterparts in the Army and Navy. The crunch came with the 1957 Sputnik crisis. The Air Force decided that education was important, even at the expense of flying service, as technology became more complex and missiles made flying less important. AFIT paid for officer education at Wright-Patterson or civilian universities. By 1963, 2,800 officers had seized the opportunity for further education. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 07:46, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

   Shorten the info about the Masters/Doctorate. My take is "in 1959, with the intention of earning a master's degree, which he changed to a doctorate degree.

   I think it is okay as it is. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 07:46, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

   I've read his thesis btw. It's very good. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:43, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

   NASA career

   Include the Gemini Target Office info in the previous section, as it was during Aldrin's time with the USAF prior to his astronaut selection

    Done Hawkeye7 (discuss) 07:46, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

   "His initial application to join the astronaut corps was rejected on the basis he was never a test pilot." Please explain this more thoroughly. When did he apply and from what group was he rejected?

   Y In 1962, for Astronaut Group 2. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 08:39, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

   "With the removal of test pilot experience as a prerequisite for astronaut selection, Aldrin became eligible and in October 1963, he became a member of NASA's Astronaut Group 3." This should be broken up, as a lot happens over the course of the sentence. Is there any additional info as to why the test pilot requirement was removed? Are there any details about Aldrin's application process? Was he selected in October 1963 or was that when training began?

   Y No, that was when it was publicly announced. Since 1959, there has been a public announcement of each group, with a press conference. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 07:46, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

   "His selection made him the first astronaut with a doctoral degree." This could be a fact on the end of the sentence about his selection into the astronaut corps.

    Done Hawkeye7 (discuss) 07:46, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

   "gave him the nickname Dr. Rendezvous" Are there more details about this nickname? Who called him that? Was it a widely accepted name? I'm not disputing its legitimacy, but am curious if it was a one-off nickname that Aldrin still referred to after the fact, or it was a widely accepted nickname among the other astronauts.

   Y Added a bit from Walt Cunningham, who was always goods with the scuttlebutt. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 07:46, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

   Gemini program

   In keeping consistency with the later Apollo program sub-header, there should be a separate sub-header for the Gemini 12 flight specifically.

   Y Bleh. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 08:39, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

   "With Gemini 12 scheduled as the last mission, this was a dead-end assignment" Combine this with the previous sentence, explaining that they were the prime crew for Gemini 13, but the last flight would be Gemini 12.

   Y Re-worded. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:25, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

   "With normal crew rotation, this confirmed Aldrin's spot as a pilot on Gemini 12." This makes sense, and I know that Chaikin references the crew rotation repeatedly. However, are there any sources for when Lovell and Aldrin received official word on their selection to Gemini 12? I think the section would read better if it explained that they were formally assigned to the flight, as right now it ends that they should have the assignment, and next thing is that they do.

   Y Re-written. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:25, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

   Change "fly the two together" to "fly the two spacecraft together" to clarify what the two in question is (spacecraft instead of two astronauts)

    Done Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:25, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

   Shorten the description of previous EVAs (each attempt doesn't need to be referred to) and instead give an explanation of the major issues (mostly crew fatigue)

    Done Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:25, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

   Downplay the responsibility for Aldrin and the success of Gemini's EVA program. Aldrin played an important role in its development, and it was crucial that he perform well on his EVA. But the developments that enabled him to EVA successfully were from lessons learned on previous EVA attempts that were (arguably) as important to the success of the program.

    Done Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:25, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

   Add the info about the manual rendezvous to the previous sentence. My take it "...unusabnle, forcing the crew to rendezvous manually."

    Done Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:25, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

   Explain why Lovell was unable to dock and how the switch to Aldrin occured. The previous sentences portray them working as a team, so it seems like a dramatic switch to swap roles in said team.

    Done Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:25, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

   Include more information about the launch of Gemini 12. Give a time and date for the Gemini 12 launch, and then specify that the target vehicle was launched half an hour prior.

   Y Added.v Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:25, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

   Rwrite the first sentence, as it has a lot of pauses in it and reads awkwardly. My take is "Aldrin performed both a standup and a free-flight EVA during the mission."

    Done Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:25, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

   Replace "so he could compare" with "to compare"

   Prefer the original. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:25, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

   "suceeded in accomplishing the work demonstration" This reads awkwardly. I'm assuming this means that he demonstrated working outside the capsule during an EVA, but it has too many verbs to easily explain what he did.

   Y Deleted it. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:25, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

   Instead of "the next day" do you have a date, or at least the mission day (first day, second day, etc.)

   Y Added dates. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:25, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

   "Aldrin performed tasks like installing electrical connectors and testing tools needed later for Apollo." Change this sentence significantly. Currently, it needs more punctuation, and comes across that it may be an all-inclusive list. My take is "Aldrin performed nummerous tasks outside the spacecraft, including installing electrical connecting and testing tools for the Apollo program."

    Done Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:25, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

   Do you have any more information about their landing/recovery?

   Y Plenty. Added a bit. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:25, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

   Elaborate more on his wife noticing depression, as that is the end of the paragraph and then not discussed until much later in the article.

   {{ }} Haven't got anything. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:25, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

   Using "later" and "after the mission" is redundant

   Y Deleted. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:25, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

   Apollo program

   This section needs to be expanded upon. There should be information about Aldrin's selection for Apollo 11, what other roles he fulfilled in the Apollo program, and more about his prep to go to the moon. The paragraph about the decision on who would step down first is pertinent, but there is more to Aldrin's story about going to the moon than that.

   The Apollo 11 sub-header should have more mission details, including launch date/time, major mission milestones, the landing process. Also, include more exploration-type details if available, as the majority of the on-moon description is about communion

   Remove the Psalm 8 quote, and just reference the verses.

   Retirement

   Change this section head to something like "Post-NASA career" as he did leave NASA, but then the first paragraph is about his time in the Air Force, followed by the rest of his career.

    Done Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:55, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

   "Aldrin did not have managerial or test pilot experience, which caused him to perform poorly in his new venture." Explain how he performed poorly, as this just cites a lack of experience, and then the next sentence explains that he developed depression.

   "returned to the Air Force" add "as a civilian" as this sentence could be interpreted as he returned to active duty

    Done I guess. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:55, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

   "in a managerial role" Explain what this role was. Where did he work? What was he in charge of?

   Y Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:54, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

   "blighted by personal problems" Explain what personal problems he experienced

   Personal preference, but I prefer not referencing books in the sentences themselves. Instead, just state the information (struggle with depression and alcoholism) and cite the books.

   I will add the information, but normally we mention important books written by the subject, and this seems a good place to do so. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:55, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

   Explain further developments with the Aldrin cycler. It was proposed in 1985, and then the update is that he continues (implied to present day) to research it with Purdue. What has come of subsequent research?

   When did Aldrin talk to David Morrison to explain the confusion?

   Added "in 2006" Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:55, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

   The documentary itself did not cut the conclusion. It should state that the documentary does not include it, or the documentary crew cut the conclusion.

   Y Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:55, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

   Views

   As this is not a wide-range of views over numerous subjects, and all in support of a manned Mars mission over moon missions, both sub-headers could be rolled into one section (titled something like "Manned Mars mission advocacy") and moved to a sub-header under the "Post-NASA career" header

   Advocating for explanation on C-SPAN in the previous paragraph should also be included.

    Done, but left it as a section, as it is fairly large. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:55, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

   Remove the short quotes and paraphrase them, specifically "master plan" and "tour of duty of ten years" as neither of those are particularly profound or unique terms that need attribution, and should instead be paraphrased.

    Done Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:55, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

   Awards and honors

   Combine the two parts of the section that describe Aldrin's military awards.

    Done Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:55, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

   "President Nixon presented Aldrin and the rest of the Apollo 11 crew..." change to "President Nixon presented the Apollo 11 crew..."

    Done Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:55, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

   "The Apollo 11 trio" should be consistent with the rest of the parahraph "The Apollo 11 crew"

    Done Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:55, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

   When was the duplicate award presented? I'm assuming sometime post-2012 after Armstrong passed away

   Personal life

   Describe his battles with depression and alcohol, instead of stating that the accounts of them can be found in his book

   Since this section is broken up into distint mini-parahraphs for different topics, the part about the GOP support should be separate from the section about depression and alcoholism. Additionally, use a consistent naming scheme, as it describes Aldrin as a member of the Republican Party and then supporting GOP politicians.

   I don't see where it says that he is a party member. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:55, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

   I phrased that poorly; my point was just to use a consistent naming scheme for Republican Party. Many American readers will be able to associate Republican and GOP, but I don't think that is common knowledge for those unfamiliar with the American political parties.

   Y Removed "GOP" and linked the name of the party. Australians often ask me what GOP stands for. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 12:32, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

   "he had recently had a face-lift;" When did he have a facelift? Either include a date/time period, or remove the date reference entirely

   It already says 2007. If this is not good enough I can remove the whole sentence. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:55, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

   Remove the purchase date and sale price for the condo, as neither of them are particularly significant or notable.

   Y I thought that they were more than the average American could afford, but I defer to your knowledge of US household incomes. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:55, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

   Definitely more expensive than your average American home, but not notably expensive for the Los Angeles region (not that I could afford to have a house there!)

   Is there an update on where he lives (presumably still in Satellite Beach)? The "As of" date is 2016.

   Y Updated to 2018. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:54, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

   Film and television

   Remove "to rapturous cheer," as that is a subjective assessment of the cheering

    Done Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:55, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

   B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:

   I made corrections above for some words to watch. The lead section should also include more about Aldrin's post-NASA career.

2. Is it verifiable with no original research?

   A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:

   No concern. However, my personal preference when citing a book multiple times over is to make a ref name, and include the pages in a given use of the citation, so every book still only has one entry into the References list.

   B. All in-line citations are from reliable sources, including those for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines:

   There is a citation needed tag after the sentence about the fifth rendezvous and fourth docking.

   C. It contains no original research:

   D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:

   According to Earwig, there is quite a bit of copied material. Earwig Link. Check to see the parts that need to be paraphrased.

   Y Quotations. Nothing to do here. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:00, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

   It looks much better on Earwig (nothing but direct titles or quotations!) than when I first reviewed it. Nice job!

   A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:

   As stated above, some of the missions could be expanded

   B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):

   No concern.

3. Is it neutral?

   It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:

   No concern.

4. Is it stable?

   It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:

   No concern

5. Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?

   A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:

   No concern.

   B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:

   The caption of the picture of the Gemini 12 EVA begins with "Another view of Aldrin in space..." This is the only picture of Aldrin during an EVA not on the moon, so the caption doesn't make sense.

   Y Changed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:55, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

6. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

I have completed my initial review. Please let me know if you have any questions or concerns. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 10:43, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

• I plan to get to this, a little busy lately. @Hawkeye7: are you interested in writing the military career section? Kees08 (Talk) 01:15, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

  Sure. No problem. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:29, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

  Sounds good. I'll check back in periodically; don't hesitate to write on my Talk page if you have any questions or comments. Good luck with what you have going on! Balon Greyjoy (talk) 15:06, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

• @Hawkeye7 and Kees08: I am traveling to the mainland for the long weekend, and won't be on Wikipedia Friday-Monday. It seems that the article is coming along very well, and I'll check back once my trip is over. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 11:11, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
• Sounds good. I may be able to get to some points this weekend, but still have real life responsibilities impeding (suppose I should have waited to nominate). Thanks Hawkeye for picking up my slack with such fervor, I really do appreciate it. Kees08 (Talk) 22:10, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

  You never know when a article will be reviewed. I will try to address all Balon Greyjoy's issues on the weekend. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:37, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

• Back from my trip. I will hopefully look over Hawkeye7's edits tomorrow. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 09:13, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Additional corrections

Since this article was extensively rewritten, I wanted to include a separate section for the updated material.

There was no intention to rewrite the article. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 12:28, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

"Rewritten" may have been poor word choice on my part. What I meant was that a lot has changed since my original review, and I wanted to differentiate a section with what minimal cleanup items I had. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 11:55, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

• "To many in the Air Force Aldrin remained the heroic fighter pilot." This seems very subjective; Col Aldrin is certainly a hero, but it seems to be a stretch that many in the Air Force consider him a heroic fighter pilot. My anecdotal evidence (from 2013 to present day) would say that Robin Olds or John Boyd are much more celebrated as Air Force fighter pilots.

  Y Removed. (Are we thinking of the same John Boyd?) Hawkeye7 (discuss) 12:28, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

  This is the John Boyd that I'm referring to. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 11:54, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

  John Boyd never shot down a MiG in Korea. Aldrin got two. I'm placing Buzz higher on the ziggurat. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:50, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

  Remove "deranged" from the Bart Sibrel description. It's editorializing to describe him as such.

  Y Removed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 12:28, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

  "Aldrin was an active supporter of the Republican Party" Isn't he still active, if he was supporting Dan Crenshaw in this most recent election?

   Done I didn't add this. I added details about his campaigning and endorsements. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 12:28, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• All points addressed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 12:32, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

  I have removed two extra commas in; I made each a separate edit. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 12:06, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

  "Air Force had lost interest in space" While the Air Force, and the public, may have no longer been as excited for space exploration than during the race for the moon; this seems very speculative, and somewhat untrue, as the Air Force continued to have an interest in space, with its numerous satellite programs and support for NASA astronauts still employed by the Air Force. This should be rephrased.

  Y Changed to: "With the Apollo Program winding down, the Air Force's interest in space diminished." I didn't mean the original to say "lost all interest" Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:50, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

  Definitely knew that you didn't mean that the US Air Force had lost all interest in space, as you have clearly researched a ton about space exploration. I was just noting how it came across.Balon Greyjoy (talk) 14:05, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

  The photo caption with "Instructor Buzz Aldrin" should remove or relocate the word "Instructor," as it is not a title, but a job. It would be more fitting to have it later in the caption, such as "Buzz Aldrin as an instructor pilot..."

   Done I think it was capitalised as the first word in the sentence. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:50, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

It passed!

There were a lot of fixes for this article, and Hawkeye7 really came through for the fixes. I am happy to pass this article, nice work Hawkeye7 and Kees08!

Gemini crew rotation

I have a problem with the way something is worded:

Jim Lovell and Aldrin were selected as the backup commander and pilot respectively of Gemini 10, which under the normal mission crew rotation scheme lined them up to be the prime crew of Gemini 13. This was a dead-end assignment, because Gemini 12 was scheduled as the tenth and final Gemini mission, and there would be no Gemini 13.

This comes off as sounding a bit like original research, that the Gemini 10 backup assignment "lined them up to be the prime crew of Gemini 13". (Does Hansen actually use that wording in First Man?) Deke Slayton's rule of thumb about backup crews being promoted to prime three missions later was just that, a default rule-of-thumb which didn't guarantee any of the astronauts anything; he could and did override it as he saw fit based on various factors such as the astronaut's performances, and falling off the end of the program. I'm sure Slayton was smart enough to know there was no Gemini 13 when he gave them the backup assignment.

How about rewording it to something like this?

Jim Lovell and Aldrin were selected as the backup commander and pilot respectively of Gemini 10. Backup crews were frequently promoted to the prime crew on the third following mission, but in this case was a dead end, as that would be Gemini 13 which did not exist; the last mission in the program was Gemini 12.[Hansen] But the February 28, 1966 deaths of the Gemini 9 prime crew, Elliot See and Charles Bassett, in an air crash, led to Lovell's and Aldrin's being moved up one mission on March 21 to backup for Gemini 9,[Hacker and Grimwood] which put them in position as prime crew for Gemini 12.[Chaikin] JustinTime55 (talk) 22:40, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

I've adopted your wording. The term "dead-end" is lifted from Chaikin. Hansen quotes Aldrin, who says: "under prevailing custom I would skip two flights and be on the prime crew of Gemini XIIl", a mission he knew would not be flown. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:50, 7 November 2018 (UTC)