Talk:Butterfly (TV series)

Max/Maxine

How does the style guide for names apply to fictional characters? The plot summary of the first episode here introduces a character called Maxine and has the episode end with her wanting to be known from now on as... Maxine. User:Bilorv reverted my edit that opened with Max with an example of how we would naturally say "when Muhammed Ali was born", but an article like Ali (film) literally opens its plot summary using the name of Cassius Clay and switches the name when it happens in the story.

Note that I haven't seen the Butterfly series. If the character is calling herself Maxine all through the episode and it's only her parents who start using the name, the article should be clearer about this. --Lord Belbury (talk) 16:36, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

@Lord Belbury: Thanks for opening the discussion. To clear everything up: throughout the first episode, the protagonist is known as "Max" and described using male pronouns. At the end of the first episode, another character announces that the protagonist wants to be called "Maxine" and use female pronouns (which we see throughout the rest of the series that she consistently does). Some relatives of the character continue using "Max"/"he" in later episodes but the character is predominantly described by "Maxine"/"she". As the character is female (essentially the whole point of the series) and described as such throughout most of the programme, it's definitely not right to call her by "Max" in the lead paragraph, as your edit did.

However, I understand that it's a little bit confusing to describe the character as "Maxine" in the first episode, when she is known as Max and described using male pronouns. The character has a clear female gender identity throughout the episode (though it's expressed through the language of a child e.g. "I don't want to be a boy" or "I feel like a girl") but they are only known as Max and other people use "he/him". My solution was to add the clause the latter of whom is currently known as Max and referred to by the characters with pronouns he and him, which we could reword or expand upon. The issue I see with using "Max" is that it has clear male gender connotations and it's also clear in the series that the character is always female, even before a diagnosis or other characters describing her as such. Another option would be rewriting to avoid use of name and/or pronouns altogether but this seems near impossible (or would produce a very clunkily written result) for the first episode summary, which is primarily about this character's experiences.

If this was a real person then MOS:GENDERID would apply and we'd either have to [refer] to [the person] by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification (on a biographical article) or use context to determine which name or names to provide on a case-by-case basis. As a fictional character, this is an edge case, but I previously erred on the side of caution: it's considered very impolite to refer to a real person by their deadname and most style guides warn against it, so by the same logic we should avoid using Maxine's deadname (that is, avoiding use but not mention of "Max"). — Bilorv (he/him) _(talk) 21:49, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

Fair points, I think it's just an issue of clarity in the writing. The first episode plot summary is currently "here's Maxine, here are some things that happen to her, and now she wants to be known as Maxine". This is potentially a bad summary of the plot if it's misrepresenting how the story is told and how characters are presented to the audience, in the same way that a mystery story plot summary wouldn't (I think) open by revealing the name of a character whose identity is concealed from the audience until the third act.

Is this a story about a girl who has always called herself "Maxine" and privately thought of herself as female finally finding the strength to tell people, or is this about a girl unsure of her identity gradually finding it during the course of the first episode and then publicly adopting a new name? Either way, I'm sure this can be written respectfully. --Lord Belbury (talk) 08:24, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the response and I completely get where you're coming from. I think it's more the second one—someone who knows they're a girl and wears female clothing in private at home, but doesn't have the words to express themselves until the end of the first episode, where they find a new name for themselves ("Maxine") and ask others to use female pronouns for them. To be honest, I think whatever option we choose has an issue with either describing the character accurately or coherence of the plot summary. I can see how it makes sense to use "Max" throughout the first episode summary, and then perhaps it's possible to rewrite it to avoid using pronouns of any sort to dodge that question. — Bilorv (he/him) _(talk) 11:57, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

Female pronouns seem fine after being explained at the start of the episode synopsis, I just think it needs a pass to clarify the actual plot structure as it develops, without the reveal-to-reader at the end that the character has not actually been being referred to as "Maxine" by anyone until this point. A line like "Vicky and Stephen explain that Maxine has wished to wear girl's clothing" sounds like they're using that name in their explanation, and it'd be clearer to say "Max" (in quote marks) if that's what's in the script. Perhaps that's the only misleading line, reading it through. --Lord Belbury (talk) 16:47, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, that makes sense. What you're saying about not using "Maxine" in the description until it's used at that point in the programme does make sense. I've changed "Maxine" to "Max" throughout the first episode summary, and added a new bit in the first sentence about how she wants to be treated as a girl, but currently isn't. If that bit is unclear, feel free to reword it or suggest new wording. — Bilorv (he/him) _(talk) 22:22, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

All looks good. I've taken out the scare quotes on the final "Max" in episode one, since the name has been used without quotes in the rest of it. Thanks for talking it through. --Lord Belbury (talk) 08:06, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

No problem, and thanks for the responses! — Bilorv (he/him) _(talk) 09:04, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Butterfly (TV series)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: MWright96 (talk · contribs) 08:08, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Going to be reviewing this article as part of the GAN Backlog Drive of April to May 2020. MWright96 (talk) 08:08, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

Lead

• "who begins to realise that she is a trans girl." - transgender
• "and made available on American subscription service Hulu." - on the American
• "though the programme also received some criticism." - maybe briefly explain what the critics exactly thought what was wrong with the show?
  • Hmm, a difficult task. The only commonality in criticism is some opposition to presentation of transgender issues, so I've reshuffled the overall lead summary so it reads: Critical reception was very positive, with reviewers praising the actors and scenes that they found particularly emotive. Further praise was given to the subject matter of the story, though this also received some criticism. — Bilorv (talk) 20:20, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Production

• "who became the youngest British girl to receive sex reassignment surgery at age 16." - PinkNews mentions that this took place in 2010 and it might benefit the inclusion of the year
• ".[4][5][2]" - refs in numerical order please
• "The miniseries was announced in September 2017," - please state who announced the series in that month for reasons of clarity

  I've said ITV announced it, per the BBC's: In its announcement, ITV described Butterfly as "a powerful family drama about this life changing decision in a boy so young". It seems like ITV sent press releases to newspapers to announce it, rather than doing it publicly; there were at least four article published on 14 September 2017: [1][2][3][4]. — Bilorv (talk) 20:20, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

• "In preparation for filming, both Scanlan and Friel visited families who are supported by Mermaids." - the text in bold is too closely written to the one in the Radio Times and will need to be rewritten to pass WP:LIMITED
  • You forgot the bold but I see the issue. RT: In preparation for filming Butterfly, Friel and Scanlan met with some of the families who are supported by Mermaids. New article version: As research before filming began, Scanlan and Friel visited families that Mermaids work with. — Bilorv (talk) 20:20, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Episodes

• "On Max's first day at high school," - shouldn't it be secondary school or this school specially a designated high school?
  • It's actually news to me that "high school" is American English because that's what I (a Brit) called it. Changed to "secondary school" for unambiguity. — Bilorv (talk) 20:20, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
• "A flashback shows Stephen slapping Max. Max discovers a video about trans people online." - Try not to have the last word of a sentence start the next one like this
  • Yeah, sometimes tricky to avoid these. I've gone with: A flashback shows Max being slapped by Stephen. Max discovers a video about trans people online. — Bilorv (talk) 20:20, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
• "the doctor recommends them to a gender identity service Ferrybank." - to Ferrybank, a gender identity service.
• "to get puberty blockers." - how about obtain instead?
• Perhaps clarify that Boston that is talked about is in the United States for reasons of clarity
• "Stephen pursues a criminal case;" - what for exactly?
  • Good question: Stephen pursues a criminal case against Vicky for parental child abduction. — Bilorv (talk) 20:20, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Broadcast

• "EITB in Basque Country in Spain." - in the Basque Country in Spain.
• "It premiered on M6-owned paid channel DTT" - on the
• "the miniseries aired in Germany" - broadcast is more formal
  • I've used "aired"/"airing" four times in this section to cut down on repetitive language, "broadcast" being the only other major option I can see (one "appeared on" construction but that seems equally as informal). Can change them all to "broadcast" if you feel strongly, but I'd prefer to keep them. — Bilorv (talk) 20:20, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Reception

• Briefly explain who Ash Palmisciano is to the uninformed

  Ash Palmisciano—the first transgender actor on the British soap Emmerdale—praised Butterfly ... — Bilorv (talk) 20:20, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

• "whilst also dealing with difficult themes." - which themes?
  • Hard to be more specific here, relevant passages from the article (and its variety of authors) include: trying to fit in but not fitting in, trying to please others, trying to please society but desperately wanting to be myself [...] months of unexplained distress [...] well-meaning relatives presuming a child is making a cry for help because of their parents' break up; those who think it's a trendy fad that a child can be coerced out of, and the fact that the reactions of others can cause great misery [...] upsetting to constantly explain a non-negotiable part of your identity, justify your clothes, name and pronouns [...] that is often a long, difficult process that is full of shame, secrecy and hardship. Parents of trans children often go through their own transition before they are able to come to terms [...] Parents that have trans children can testify that this is often very difficult for them. I've now said "who found the programme to present accurate and positive portrayals of trans people, whilst also displaying the difficulties of transitioning". — Bilorv (talk) 20:20, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
• "described having a very similar situation to that of the programme's characters and said the programme" - avoid close repetition of the word "programme" in the same sentence
• Wikilink Gender Identity Development Service
• "and reporting that fewer than 1%" - please avoid using the percentage symbol per MOS:PERCENT
• "Green cited a 2016 Stonewall survey in which 45% of transgender children" - same issue as above

Critical reception

• "he brought "believable vulnerability" to the character.[38][30][34][37] " - refs should be in numerical order
• "finding her character "phoned in".[38][32]" - same issue as above

References

• The publisher of Reference 9 should be changed to BBC News

Will put the review on hold to allow the nominator to respond/query the points raised above. MWright96 (talk) 15:07, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Alright, all comments addressed in this edit and I've also replied to some of the non-trivial changes. Let me know if you've got any follow-ups to these points, or any other comments. Thanks for the review, under 24 hours must be a record time out of the articles I've nominated. — Bilorv (talk) 20:20, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

• @Bilorv: Now promoting to GA class. MWright96 (talk) 10:44, 30 April 2020 (UTC)