Talk:Brandon Teena/Archive 3

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Speaking of citations

I would like to respectfully point out that the article cites this BBC article as support that Brandon was transsexual. The article refers to her as "she" and as a "girl." I don't agree with the usage of pronouns in the Wikipedia article. However, as I've said previously I have no wish to edit war over it and will not, but only would like to remind that pronoun usage in no way defines trollish or vandalistic behaviour in the context of this article. Thanks for listening. Gwen Gale 11:01, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

In and of itself, no - but repeating your fallacious argument over and over again (is it a dozen times now?) on an article about a transgendered murder victim could easily be interpreted that way by some editors.

If you're wiling to leave the issue alone, then do so already. Stop repeating your tired and erroneous claim that the usage of pronouns in the press should determine WP pronoun usage rather than the WP policies regarding self-identification. Feel free to take your argument to the WP policy area governing pronoun usage. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 14:38, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Please review WP:No personal attacks and WP:Civil, thanks. Gwen Gale 15:07, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

My comments were neither uncivil nor a personal attack. Don't throw those around so flippantly. If you have valid complaints, you know where to raise them. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 15:10, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Editors who bring up this issue on this talk page are not trolls or vandals, which is all I have to say here. I suggest you think long and hard before carrying on with your personal attacks and uncivil behaviour towards my good faith, citation-supported comments on this talk page. Please drop it and I'll drop it. Thanks. Gwen Gale 15:17, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Please see my comment above. I trust you realize that ongoing, persistent attempts to ignore WP pronoun usage policy on a BIO page of a murdered transsexual (rather than dealing with the policy issue on the relevant page) is a bad idea. Such conduct only erodes any validity an editor's argument might have had. If you're not interested in disrupting WP, you should choose another forum to resolve the policy question.

Since you started the thread, I hope you'll not require the last word - as I'm happily dropping the issue here, with this response - if you want to make constructive improvements, you might want to stop using a BIO of a transsexual murder victim to debate WP pronoun usage for transsexuals. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 15:27, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I support WP policy, am sensitive to the article's content and have no wish to disrupt the article. Thanks for taking the time to reply. Gwen Gale 15:44, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I've decided to stop watching this article. I have too many worries of my own about arguing over murder-victim Teena Brandon's corpse (so to speak, anyway). This is a public wiki and since I edit here under WP policy I'm ok with the consensus of editors who disagree with me on the points I've raised. Thanks for listening and cheers to everyone :) Gwen Gale 14:44, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Help with References

Ok, so I tried cleaning up the referances a little bit because they were hard to accsess and understand... at least for me. Could someone work on them? I just made in worse >.< Eirra 18:24, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I reverted your repeated placement of the same link as overkill. As far as the changes to the content, my gut tells me that the prior version was superior, but I'll take a look when I can... --- User:RyanFreisling @ 18:27, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

K, thanks. Yeah, sorry. I basiccly found the infoprmation and put it in, but, yes I could have done a better job. Sorry. Anyways, the prior version was extremly short and undetialed. Eirra 17:57, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Tone

Indeed, with regards to content, caution should be exhibited. When content/context is added, we need to be careful to use encyclopedic language. The article is tending to read like a novelette. ZueJay (talk) 22:53, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, sorry. Basiclly, I got the information put in, but it definetly does need some revising. Eirra 17:57, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Carolyn Gage's essay 'Unmaking of a Lesbian'

Is simply not notable enough to be encyclopedic on an article about Brandon Teena, and I've reverted the inclusion of the link by anon. Sorry, but it's my opinion (pretty strong opinion after a bit of research) that Gage's essay (posted on an unverifiable web site, no less) simply does not meet the standards to be cited as a valid source on WP, in terms of notability, undue weight, verifiability, etc. for starters. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 23:09, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree entirley. After reading the article, I find it unreliable (there were several statments that contradicted with other information that most sources agree on) and it seemed to come from a VERY biased and untrustworthy view. It seems someone has added it back, however. I'd rather not get into an edit war, but I do agree on this issue. Eirra 16:00, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I read parts of the essay, and it seems to be promoting an agenda rather than providing information about Brandon Teena's life and death. I think its strongly POV nature advises against including it in Wikipedia, unless in the context of an opinion of one of the transgender-related articles. In that sense the website (rather than the specific essay) is rather important, because it delineated a not-often-exposed reaction of the transgender identity. LeaHazel : talk : contribs 14:45, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree that the website is important, in and of itself... it is unverifiable (there is no identification of the organization involved) and non-notable (it does not appear to be well-known at all). The anti-transgender views of some radical feminists is well-known (Janice Raymond's book, for example) but this website is an anonymous set of essays and as such doesn't meet the level of reputability to serve as a source for WP... and of course incorporating the POV of such radical feminist condemnation to the bio page of a murdered transsexual is highly questionable. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 15:23, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I see your point. Clearly, I need to do more research into the subject. LeaHazel : talk : contribs 08:52, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Dropping random names

The article drops random names as if we are supposed to know who they are. Editing for proper introductions to people requested.

-- unsigned at 10:23, 28 March 2007 by

Thanks for pointing this out - there's a low-key edit war over the cited material that introduces these names. An IP editor who claims to have been there, but has not yet provided contradictory sources of information, keeps blanking the bit that intro's those names. ZueJay (talk) 14:56, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Did Brandon Teena date Lisa Lambert?

An anon keeps reverting the section stating that Brandon Teena had dated Lisa Lambert prior to the murders, citing personal experience. Needless to say, that's not sufficient for WP. The anon then put a link in to what appears to be a Dutch site, without apparent attribution or verifiability that did not appear to back up the assertion. In a few minutes of searching I found this:

(December 03, 1996) Marvin Thomas Nissen, serving a life sentence for the 1993 shooting deaths of Brandon Teena, his girlfriend Lisa Lambert, and friend Phillip DeVine, will try to convince the State Supreme Court in Nebraska this week that he deserves a new trial due to errors made by police and the judge. [1]

On 31 December, Nissen and Lotter went to the home of Brandon's girlfriend Lisa Lambert and killed her, Brandon and a friend of theirs, Philip Devine. [2]

If there is indeed a source to substantiate they were not dating, please provide it. I frankly don't care about this issue either way, but we need to reflect the verifiable facts of this case in the article, not anonymous accounts. Thoughts? -- User:RyanFreisling @ 14:31, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I am the anon you talk of and I am at a loss of how to provide proof of what is in my head. My ex is the former Carrie Gross, Lisa Lamberts roommate at the time of the murders. This is substantiated in both a book "All She Wanted", thru numerous articles on line, and several TV shows including A&E American Justice "The Life and Death of Teena Brandon" plus the doc "The Brandon Teena Story". If anyone would know the actual facts it would be Lisa Lamberts former roommate. She has stated that Brandon and Lisa were never an item and never dated. I have yet to see any truly verifiable source that says they were actually dating. As for me, I have a site on Yahoo: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Brandon93/ It is a member only site to keep out porn bots, so just ask and I will be more than happy to open the door for you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12:04, 31 March 2007 (talk • contribs) 63.215.29.115

Unfortunately WP isn't a news agency, and since your representation is also not a first hand account, but only hearsay ('my ex knew the victim'), I can't see how WP can accept your account as fact without verifiable, notable corroboration. Right now, GLAAD and other sources represent Lisa Lambert as Brandon's 'girlfriend', making the clear representation that they were 'a couple' at the time of the murders. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 22:22, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I am trying to understand your point. How is it GLAAD has information that is correct, when I knew the victim on a personal basis and mine is hearsay? My ex not only knew all 3 victims, she was living in the same house as all 3. How is it GLAAD knows more than any of us who were there? I am trying to understand what makes them a verifiable source of information over someone they never knew, and not a spinner of tall tails to advance their own agenda.

Here's the short version - I think it's clear WP cannot recognize you as a valid source of information for the following reasons: 1. you are an anonymous user claiming to have knowledge that contradicts a notable source's account of a public event. You need to establish your identity and credentials as a witness and provide your account in some other forum (because WP is an encyclopedia, not a news agency) or point to a notable, verifiable source that has already published an account that corroborates your view. If you have any more questions about your validity as a source for the article, I recommend you raise the issue on one of the administrators' pages, like WP:AN/I. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 00:59, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

No. No more questions. I am done with wiki. Thanks for checking out my web site to verify who I am. Good day.

personal attack deleted. It's all heresay. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.229.136.49 (talk) 21:52, 12 April 2007 (UTC).

personal attack deleted—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.215.29.119 (talk) 20:33, 14 April 2007 (UTC).

I see this user is back and reverting to a version eliminating the mention of Lisa Lambert as Brandon's girlfriend at the time of his move to Falls City. Note that when Brandon was killed, he was killed in Lambert's bed. In light of the mention of this fact in the article and the three sources that establish that they were dating when Brandon moved in, I consider it more informative to include the 'girlfriend' information in the 'Living in Falls City' section. If there is evidence other than an anon claiming personal knowledge (as discussed earlier in this section), please cite it. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 23:08, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

In this part of Nebraska if you move in with a girlfriend and start dating her friends you won't wake up one morning. This entire sentence makes Lisa and Brandon sound like a couple of freaks. They were neither. And Brandon was found dead on top of her bed at the foot, not in her bed. Lisa was covered up, Brandon was not. As for calling this vandalism, it was not. There are more than a few people who disagree with this statement. You encourage people to make chages as long as they agree with your view? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.215.29.115 (talk • contribs).

My view (and the deleted content I reverted back) is well cited. Again, you can't make personal comments or claims to substantiate your edits. WP demands that we ALL provide citations to notable sources that validate our desired edits. If there is content in the article you object to that's this well cited, you can't claim it's in error based in personal information. Cite it.

Last, your comment "In this part of Nebraska if you move in with a girlfriend and start dating her friends you won't wake up one morning.", beyond being somewhat horrifying in itself, is ironic in that Brandon Teena was indeed murdered. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 23:25, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I am well aware the fate Teena Brandon suffered. We all are and is one of the reason's we came in here. And yet Lisa is not only lumped into being the girlfriend of someone she was only good friends with, she evidently didn't mind him messing around behind her back with her friends. This is all so wrong. She helped out someone in need and now she gets labeled as a cheap loser who's supposed boyfriend likes to cheat on her with her supposed friends. That just isn't right. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.215.29.115 (talk • contribs).

People fall in and out of relationships for all kinds of reasons. Of course no-one's being labeled as a 'cheap loser' by reflecting the fact that all accounts indicate they had a relationship. If that's not the case, there should be (verifiable, notable, independent) accounts of that. Your personal uncorroborated and unverifiable account just isn't acceptable evidence on WP. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 23:52, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps this should stand as a lesson for us all. Lisa opened her home and risk (and lost) her life to help a very troubled soul. And now she and her son get to pay for it. Clearing her name won't be possible, so perhaps this will serve as a lesson to the rest of us who would have tried to help someone like this in the past. Maybe this will actually save some other innocent life. Lesson learned. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.215.29.115 (talk • contribs).

Hope so. Thanks for your views on the matter and I'm sorry you feel that way. Now, will you please agree to stop making uncited edits and to provide valid citations to validate your future edits? Again, thanks. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 00:07, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

As I see it, you found one source stating that Lisa and Brandon dated. I don't see how that one source can block out others that do not support you view. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Faytay2002 (talk • contribs).

No, I found 3 sources.

(December 03, 1996) Marvin Thomas Nissen, serving a life sentence for the 1993 shooting deaths of Brandon Teena, his girlfriend Lisa Lambert, and friend Phillip DeVine, will try to convince the State Supreme Court in Nebraska this week that he deserves a new trial due to errors made by police and the judge. [3]

On 31 December, Nissen and Lotter went to the home of Brandon's girlfriend Lisa Lambert and killed her, Brandon and a friend of theirs, Philip Devine. [4]

And the third is the source cited in the article - the very same source you use below to make your point about whether Brandon was found in Lisa Lambert's bed, at the foot of the bed, or what have you:

"Brandon" came into Humboldt, about eighty miles south of Lincoln, and stayed with a girl named Lisa Lambert. Lisa fell in love with him, but he soon had his eye on someone else. That's what got him into more trouble than he'd bargained for. [5]

I have now worked to find 3 sources that validate this text and there are none that substantiate the objection. Please provide similar sources or stop reverting that text without valid cites. Without any presentation of proof, such repetitive reverts are disruptive. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 00:30, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Funny. I find it disruptive that you continue be so set on providing inaccurate information. Those sources you used sound exactly the same. Like they were taken word for word and used as a source for each other. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Faytay2002 (talk • contribs).

If you feel that GLAAD, Crimelibrary and an author on Google books are in collusion, I'm afraid that's way beyond the scope of this article. The citations are different in many ways that leads me to disagree.

Also you may note that the 'crimelibrary' site is not one to which you object to make a point in the section below, but on this point by your account alone we should consider them inaccurate (again, without valid evidence). On this too I disagree - your uncited views are not the basis for an encyclopedia article.

I asked if you'd stop making these uncited edits and you haven't answered, would you please answer for the sake of courtesy?

Last, again to be courteous please sign your edits with -- ~~~~. It really helps others to follow the discussion. Thanks. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 00:41, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I never said they were in collusion. Calling this an encyclopedia article is an insult to encyclopedias. Is it not well known that it was in fact Lana Tisdale who was Brandon's girlfriend? While Lisa may have had feelings for Brandon, and I don't know that she did, it does not in fact mean they were dating.

Again, I asked you a question and I would appreciate at least a 'no'. To be courteous please sign your edits with -- ~~~~. The sources available describe Lisa as 'Brandon's girlfriend', and that she was 'in love with him'. This is unrelated to his well-known relationship with Lana Tisdel. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 00:46, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I will not give you a 'no' since I am not done with this yet.

Lisa has often been linked, mistakenly, with Teena Brandon as a romantic partnership. Lisa's only true love was her son Tanner. "Brandon" was seeking refuge from her attackers and she gladly gave comfort and shelter to a bruised and battered human being. For this she gave her life.

www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page_gr&GRid=17993044

Hmm. To your comments all I can say is please familiarize yourself with WP:SOAPBOX, WP:POINT, WP:V, WP:NOTE, WP:RS and WP:STYLE. If you continue to simply repeat claims without evidence, to claim personal firsthand knowledge and to refuse to provide valid cites that verify your claims, you will eventually be seen as disruptive. And I'll ask you again to be courteous and please sign your edits with -- ~~~~. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 01:11, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I just gave you evidence. I did not say I have first hand knowledge. I do not. Earlier you stated you don't care either way if they dated or not. So why do you continue to change what I and others have been taking out? I think you have me confussed with another user. We are not the same person. Faytay2002 01:16, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

That's why I asked you multiple times to sign your posts. How does that 'evidence' prove your point at all? It's a gravestone finder. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 01:21, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

According to SOAPBOX propaganda and advocacy is not allowed. And yet many of the cites being listed here are from GLAAD or liked to them, which clearly has an agenda to advance their own cause (as do most groups). Isn't allowing such cites a violation of the spirit of your own rules in wiki?

They're not my rules, and no, it's not a violation to provide a citation from a notable source like GLAAD, especially when corroborated by other sources. If there are contradictory notable sources, then we can certainly include them as well - as I've said from the start. So far, not a single source has been provided by this rash of anons and single-role accounts to justify the repeated removal the content. Provide valid cites to justify your edits. And please sign your talk page posts. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 01:28, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Then please explain how such a source, that you know will not be unjaded, is notable?

Sorry? Are you saying that GLAAD (the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation) is not a notable source regarding information on a murdered transgendered person? If you feel they're biased, you need to demonstrate that bias with contradictory evidence, but that has no bearing on whether GLAAD is notable. They are. And again, if only to help differentiate your comments from the other accounts posting here (whether they are your accounts or not), please please sign your talk page posts with -- ~~~~. Thanks. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 01:35, 16 May 2007 (UTC). -- User:RyanFreisling @ 01:34, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Marvin Thomas Nissen, 22, also of Falls City, has been convicted of one count of first degree murder in the death of Brandon Teena and two counts of second degree murder in the deaths of Lisa Lambert, whom Brandon was living with at the time, and Phillip DeVine, a friend who http://drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu/~julie/text/teenrage.html

No mention of girlfriend. Just the person Brandon was living with at the time. And to your above comment, it is also debated whether Brandon was truly transgendered or not. Her greatest fear, according to acquaintances, was to be touched sexually by a man, and she was especially afraid of being raped. In fact, one male relative had exposed her to repeated sexual abuse, so her male appearance was as much a disguise as a guise. taken from www.crimelibrary.com

Faytay2002 01:46, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

'No mention' of something does not imply its non-existence - that would be illogical. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 01:48, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

How is it anything I give you you argue with? What is illogical is how set you are on fighting about this. I have to ask again, if you don't care as you stated before, why do you insist on putting it back in? Faytay2002 01:53, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

www.cnn.com/2003/us/central/12/28/brandon.death.transgender.ap/index.html

John Lotter and Marvin Nissen were convicted of murdering Teena, who had dated a female friend of the two men. They also killed Lisa Lambert, 24, and Philip DeVine, 22, who had witnessed Teena's death in a farmhouse. Faytay2002 02:01, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Just because a group is named Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation does not mean they do not posses an agenda. What makes this group scholarly and quotable? If a group has an agenda what makes anything they publish reliable, verifiable, or neutral as required by wiki guidlines? I think this is crossing the line and this entire project is tainted.

1. It's not that I argue anything you give me. I've argued with the gravestone link (because it doesn't demonstrate anything at all about Lisa Lambert) and I argue with the concept that 'no mention' of something proves it does not exist. Your CNN cite above similarly doesn't demonstrate that when Brandon moved to Falls City he moved in with his girlfriend, Lisa Lambert. Claiming 'proof by omission' is a logical fallacy on your part.

2. I believe the content establishing they had a relationship is well-cited, and therefore it should not be removed because a number of anonymous and single-role user accounts claim personal knowledge but cannot verify it in any way. That's not how WP works.

I've told you repeatedly what constitutes a valid source (WP:RS, WP:V, WP:NOTE, etc.), and to be useful for the purposes of your edit, the source needs to actually verify your claim that the media reports are in error and there was no relationship between the two. Unless you can cite your claim, there is no controversy over this issue aside from your continuing posts here.

3. Bias and notability are different. Take up your concerns about the notability guidelines on the respective pages - that's a separate issue and doesn't belong here.

The content doesn't require blanking simply because you believe it should be blanked. WP is based on verifiability - and you've not provided any verifiable proof. As I said a month and a half ago at the top of this thread:

"Unfortunately WP isn't a news agency, and since your representation is also not a first hand account, but only hearsay ('my ex knew the victim'), I can't see how WP can accept your account as fact without verifiable, notable corroboration. Right now, GLAAD and other sources represent Lisa Lambert as Brandon's 'girlfriend', making the clear representation that they were 'a couple' at the time of the murders."

Since then you've done nothing but revert the edit over and over, and have not provided a single source that disputes this well-cited account. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 02:05, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

So you are saying that they must have been dating just because they lived together for awhile? I'd say that is a fallacy on your part. And again, I am NOT the person who posted about my ex knowing the victim. I have found several sources for you now that mention Lisa as only the person he was living with, not a girlfriend. The fact that these sources have omitted this fact is because it is not true. If in fact he had been dating, doesn't it seem reasonable that the cnn article would have stated that? But they didn't. It was stated that he had been dating a friend of the killers. That was in the article because that is the truth. Faytay2002 02:15, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Also, using the very wiki sourses you refer to, the cites provided are invalid as well. It clearly states a source must be neutral. How can you justify otherwise?

No I'm saying the WP article says that she was his girlfriend at the time he moved in because 3 notable sources meeting WP:V and WP:NOR establish it. Your personal claims and your claim that your sources 'omitted this fact (?) because it is not true' are, to be kind, personal opinions - and edits on that basis alone (without valid cites) violate WP policy ([6]). Last, if you could provide a link saying a valid source for a citation has to be neutral, please do. What I found was this [7]. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 02:20, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Yet again, you are confussing me with another. I have no personal claims, as I did not know any of these victims. But I fail to see your point that these articles would leave out an important fact such as any kind of romantic relationship they may have had. If it had been true, it would have been stated. But it was not. It was stated he was dating another woman, but living with Lisa.Faytay2002 02:31, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

The article describes Lisa as his girlfriend when he moved in, not when he was dating Lana. And of course, your comment "If it had been true, it would have been stated." is completely illogical and false. Correctly cite it (without violating WP policy or basic logic), or drop it. Good night! -- User:RyanFreisling @ 02:39, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

By reinforcing the importance of including verifiable research produced by others….How does GLAAD fit into verifiable research?. “There is no firm definition of reliable, although most of us have a good intuition about the meaning of the word. In general, the most reliable sources are books and journals published by university presses; mainstream newspapers; and magazines and journals published by known publishing houses. Again, explain to me how anything from GLAAD fits this criteria.

Link to that text, please? Here's mine (with a link):

There is no firm definition of "reliable," although most of us have a good intuition about the meaning of the word. In general, the most reliable sources are books and journals published by university presses; mainstream newspapers; and magazines and journals published by known publishing houses. As a rule of thumb, the more people engaged in checking facts, analysing legal issues, and scrutinizing the writing, the more reliable the publication. Material that is self-published, whether on paper or online, is generally not regarded as reliable, but see Wikipedia:Verifiability for exceptions. [8] -- User:RyanFreisling @ 02:56, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

GLAAD is certainly notable, and the information cited to them is verifiable. Furthermore any concern about 'bias' regarding the content in question (beyond being somewhat silly to imagine GLAAD calling Lisa Brandon's girlfriend because of a pro-gay bias), is dealt with by additional corroboration by additional sources. In contrast, despite a wildly spinning argument in which you have cited sources and then claimed those same sources are inaccurate, you have provided no sources that contradict this content.

Cite it properly without violating logic or WP policy or drop it. Good night.-- User:RyanFreisling @ 03:01, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree with the other poster Ryan. I don't see how GLAAD can be called reliable when it is neither "books and journals published by university presses; mainstream newspapers; and magazines and journals published by known publishing houses". Seems CNN would be a more reliable source than anything from GLAAD.Faytay2002 03:02, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

You're welcome to follow whatever recourse you wish to pursue your idea that GLAAD is not a reliable source for the article, but it certainly won't fly. I suggest you read the policy pages carefully and if you'd like to go to WP:DR, feel free. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 03:05, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Using the above statement, how is it GLAAD is a book or journal published by a university press; mainstream newspaper; a magazine or journal published by a known publishing house? I can't see how they can be used as a source and still meet any of the criteria. That is like allowing the American National Socialist Party to write the story of Adolf Hitler. I am not trying to link them to NAZI's, it is just an easy example of how someone with an agenda towards its members will not provide as a source you can count upon. (Can NAZI's read or write, anyway? I never met one.)

• Sigh*! Nazis? I can only direct you to read the policies, and in general, you will find that single selected sentence is not the end-all the definition of a valid source for WP. Last, I hereby invoke Godwin's Law. Stop going around in circles (GLAAD's verifiability, tombstones, nazis, illogic, etc. - what's the next one?) and either open an RfC or other means of dispute resolution, or leave it be. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 03:09, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

• LOL!! You can always tell when someone's run out of arguments when they invoke Hitler and the Nazis. Geez. And yeah, (neo-)Nazis can read and write, at least the one I blocked indefinitely on here last week did :) - Alison ☺ 03:15, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Hello Alison. I am far from running out of arguments. There are dozens more to come, just using the links inside wiki that RF gave me to read. I can get some reading done on what is legal and allowed and I will be back within a few days. Thanks for all the help tonight. I think we shall be in for an interesting few days. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.215.29.115 (talk • contribs)

• Please tell me this is not a legal threat. However, we're here to write an encyclopedia, not do battle. I've no interest in this article other than being called in some time ago due to POV-warring. I'm still here. As the article is now semi-protected by another administrator, if you can provide reliable, relevant, cited sources for encyclopedic additions, I'll even help you add them yourself. Deal? - Alison ☺ 04:09, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Legal threats? Against wiki? That would be a huge waste of time and money. No, this is more of a challenge. To know the truth and fight for it. Even if someone else will eventually come along and change it back to something wrong again. I like a good challenge. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.215.29.115 (talk • contribs)

• I'm okay with that. If you can find valid references for your edits, I'll be delighted. Seriously. Anything that helps improve the project is welcome here. If you're here for disruption, you'll be blocked from editing pretty quickly. But if you can justify your edits and play by the rules, then go for it! - Alison ☺ 04:53, 16 May 2007 (UTC) (ps: can you sign your edits with "- ~~~~", please? Your comments are getting lost here)

Taken from All She Wanted by Aphrodite Jones

"When Reanna got back outside, Daphne had just pulled up with Carrie Gross, her buddy from Humbolt." p. 115 fyi- Reanna and Daphne were girlfriends of Brandon's while still in Lincoln. I am only posting this to bring up Carrie Gross, who was Lisa Lambert's roommate.

"When Brandon and Daphne arrived, they didn't even see Humbolt. It was one of the coldest autumns in Nebraska on record, so they saw nothing but bleak winter farmland. Carrie brought them directly to Lisa Lambert's farmhouse, a tiny gray one-story shack with three small bedrooms just two miles south of town.
Lisa rented the place for $125 a month, so she could afford to be gracious, and let friends stay there for little or no charge. Carrie Gross and her boyfriend Mike Lang were already living there off and on, so hosting Carrie's friends wasn't a big deal." p. 118

Here is the proof you have been asking for that shows Brandon did not move in with his "girlfriend" Lisa Lambert. Faytay2002 15:10, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Needless to say, that account doesn't contradict the other accounts. It doesn't speak to whether there was a relationship or not. I'll take a look at the book in more depth and see what it does say.

As an example, a citation that says "contrary to news reports, Brandon and Lisa were never in a relationship" or the like would at least establish a controversy around this issue. Right now, it strikes me as WP:OR to draw the conclusion you've sought to draw from that example.. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 15:13, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, Jones book, which is published by a note worthy author and by a well known publishing house, meeting all of wiki's criteria, is the only true source meeting the strict rule of wikipedia for verifiability and NPOV. Her book is in direct conflict of much of this article, and many of the other sources being used to back up claims within this article. The name Brandon Teena in relation to Brandon in this book. The author, who used both family and friends, uses the name Brandon or Teena to refer to this person. Also, how is note 6 a valid not? It uses IMDB. IS this any more acceptable than the FIND A GRAVE that was shown earlier. Both of these are web site, not verifiable and certainly not legal by wiki standards. Either allow both to be cited or remove IMDB and note 6 as a cite.

I have no problem with Jones' book. I had a problem with your citation from that book being used to try to prove something it clearly does not. And if you feel Jones' book is indeed a valid source (I'd agree), here's what it does say about his relationship with Lisa (at least, a citation attributed that I need to verify at the library):

"Both of Brandon's Humboldt girlfriends, Lisa Lambert and Lana Tisdel, were being harassed at their workplaces and at social events. One of Lisa's friends described Lisa's dilemma: "Everyone in Humboldt knew about Brandon. Lisa didn't try to hide it. Lisa couldn't believe something like this happened to her. She made it clear that she was too caring to shut Brandon out. She was mad and hurt about it, but she didn't want to hurt him [sic], didn't want to turn him [sic] out on the streets." (Jones, 205)

So Jones says that Brandon dated two women in Humboldt - Lisa and Lana. Thanks, and I hope we can now put this issue to rest. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 02:28, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Sure, now you have agreed we can start using Jones book to remove some of these other cites. For instance, number 6 that you ignored me post on. It is invalid by using your own criteria. It is a web site and not a true wiki notable source. Thanks Ryan, I think we can do bussiness together now.

No, the criteria are not mine, they are WP policy. I really recommend you read the links in the page's top banner and honestly try to understand the WP approach to using sources in order to present the verifiable points of view on issues (there can be multiple points of view, where cited). Well-known and reputable websites like IMDB, non self-published books, media reports, etc. can often be considered reliable when used to represent a verifiable point-of-view. And Jones' book, where it contradicts other citations, is as good as any source to illustrate such a controversy or difference in the reported events. Please read WP:V.-- User:RyanFreisling @ 03:01, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

That is fine. I notice you have added a cite for FindAGrave for Teena Brandon. Please add this one as well for Lisa Lambert http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=17993044. If Find a Grave is a valid source then let us use it all of it as such.

I didn't add the cite. But the cite is there because it is relevant to a verified controversy (the name Brandon and his family used to refer to him). I think you'd agree there's no such controversy regarding Lisa's name (or other questions the gravesite data could shed light on), and therefore we don't need a gravesite link for her on Brandon Teena's page. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 06:08, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

If one cite on Find A Grave is allowed, then all must be allowed. You can't use one page and not another on the same web site. Either allow Lisa Lamberts page or exclude the Brandon page. Speaking of names, I am still looking thru Jones book and at no point is the term Brandon Teena used. Not from the mother, any family member, none of the frineds, or even from Brandon himself. This appears to be a term rather than a name.

Needless to say, you appear to fundamentally misunderstand the use of citations. Your statement 'If one cite on find a grave' is allowed, all are allowed' ignores the important issue of whether other cites are necessary. Since there's no information to be added by a gravesite reference to a person other than Brandon to this article, I personally don't see a reason for it (you're welcome to make the edit and see how the community responds).

As far as the name 'Brandon Teena' is concerned, that issue (a controversy over whether he used the full name 'brandon teena' in life) is represented in the article. There is evidence that supports both viewpoints, so the issue is accurately described as such in the article. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 13:22, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

A 216 anon has introduced a number of uncited edits, including the removal of the attribution of 'girlfriend' to Lisa Lambert. Expressing a number of individual POV's and without citation, these edits have been reverted. If you want to cite your edits, you're welcome to re-introduce any and all of them. Since the article has been disrupted on an ongoing basis, and most recently required semi-protection, edits of a controversial nature to this article are best accompanied with the required citations. Thanks. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 21:11, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

The 63. anon (very likely the same editor as the single-role accounts here and the 216. anon) has again deleted the word 'girlfriend' - and as before, has done so without citation/verification and in defiance of numerous citations that state that they were dating.

Anon, claiming a fact is substantiated by an ex-girlfriend isn't an acceptable basis for Wikipedia edits. Repeated deletions of cited content - without even making an effort to provide notable, verifiable sourcing or rationale for the deletion - is plainly disruptive conduct. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 21:41, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

All I could find in the cite was this reference: ""Brandon" came into Humboldt, about eighty miles south of Lincoln, and stayed with a girl named Lisa Lambert. Lisa fell in love with him, but he soon had his eye on someone else. That's what got him into more trouble than he'd bargained for." Can someone show me where it says Lisa was a girlfriend?

And back to the beginning we go. For the third time, here are the sources (including the source cited directly in the article)ake a peek at the very first entry in this section for two, and then three links that state exactly that:

(December 03, 1996) Marvin Thomas Nissen, serving a life sentence for the 1993 shooting deaths of Brandon Teena, his girlfriend Lisa Lambert, and friend Phillip DeVine, will try to convince the State Supreme Court in Nebraska this week that he deserves a new trial due to errors made by police and the judge. [9]

On 31 December, Nissen and Lotter went to the home of Brandon's girlfriend Lisa Lambert and killed her, Brandon and a friend of theirs, Philip Devine. [10]

"Brandon" came into Humboldt, about eighty miles south of Lincoln, and stayed with a girl named Lisa Lambert. Lisa fell in love with him, but he soon had his eye on someone else. That's what got him into more trouble than he'd bargained for. [11]

-- User:RyanFreisling @ 00:42, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

she a girl not a guy

why do they keep saying that shes a guy hes a girl its as simple as that she tried to make her self look like a guy and lied to everyone but she still was a girl by saying that shes a guy and referring to her as he are they who wrote the article trying to respect what would be her dieing wishes or something? i mean come on