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Talk:Borys Oliynyk (poet)

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Requested move 7 June 2017

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. The RM has been listed twice, and opinions are split between those who state that the poet has greater long-term significance and is primary due to his page views, versus those who state that the two have equal long-term significance, and that the "poet" moniker is helpful for precision. We therefore stay where we are.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:07, 26 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]


Borys Oliynyk (poet) → Borys Oliynyk – Per WP:TWODABS. The dab only contains one other entry. The railway director doesn't have an article and doesn't appear to be independently notable. This could be handled with a hatnote pointing to Ukrainian Railways#Directors. Nick Number (talk) 20:59, 7 June 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. Andrewa (talk) 03:06, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

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@Onel5969: no longer redlisted, and substantially Ukrainian language sources do pass WP:GNG. In ictu oculi (talk) 06:43, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Strike support comment as rationale no longer appropriate. Onel5969 TT me 12:23, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relisting comment: I have just closed as move a very similar RM at Talk:Vasyl Melnychuk#Requested move 7 June 2017. I note that both pages were recently boldly moved... 03:57, 30 May 2017‎ Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk | contribs | block)‎ m . . (2,053 bytes) (0)‎ . . (Aleksandr Grigoryev moved page Borys Oliynyk to Borys Oliynyk (poet)). Perhaps Aleksandr Grigoryev should be allowed to comment? Andrewa (talk) 03:06, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. - independently notable? Railway director is no less important and played a key role in establishing the unified railway administration in Ukraine which completely integrated into the Soviet system. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 03:13, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I do agree the other Oliynyk (Borys Stepanovych) is notable (although the disambiguation "Ukrzaliznytsia" doesn't make sense. He was only at Ukrzaliznytsia from 1991-1993) but I don't think he is as notable. I checked the traffic on both articles on the Ukrainian and Russian Wikipedia since January, and the poet (Borys Illich) has more than twice as much traffic on both (ignoring the traffic after his death). Borys Illich isn't hugely notable but I think he's more notable than Borys Stepanovych. —МандичкаYO 😜 06:40, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose neither are super notable, and there's no advantage to anyone from removing (poet) from the article, and a quick double click through the dab won't hurt anyone either. In ictu oculi (talk) 06:43, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • @In ictu oculi: How do we know whether or not something is notable enough to be the primary topic? WP:PRIMARYTOPIC just says whether or not it's likely to be the article is what people are searching for when searching the article name. Since traffic is double on the poet, wouldn't that make him the primary target, since more people are interested in that topic? —МандичкаYO 😜 06:50, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The railway article has only just been written expanded. Give it six months. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:08, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@In ictu oculi: That's why I didn't bother comparing the traffic on the English versions. If it wasn't clear, I only checked the traffic on the Russia and Ukrainian versions, which have both existed for some time. —МандичкаYO 😜 07:18, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Restore this article as Boris Oleynik per common/his own spelling, move the railroad dude to Borys Oliynyk, delete disambiguation page. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk · contribs) moved the Boris Oleynik article to Borys Oliynyk on 29 May 2017 with no explanation‎ at all. According to the article, Oleynik is how he spelled his own name (Aleksandr Grigoryev added this to the article himself). He used the Russian "Oleynik" (Олейник) and not the Ukrainian version, Oliynyk (Олійник). There are more Google hits for "Boris Oleynik" (1,360) than "Borys Oliynyk" (976), and most seem to be about him and not the railroad guy. Ping previous voters @Onel5969 and Andrewa: —МандичкаYO 😜 07:18, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Distinguishing some Ukrainians by spelling their names in Russian is a really bad idea. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:26, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@In ictu oculi: Russian/Ukrainian title spelling for articles about Ukrainians takes into consideration which version they prefer themselves (just like any other article in identifying people by the name they prefer rather than official names, such as people who go by their middle names). This guy preferred the Russian version. —МандичкаYO 😜 07:30, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Where's the guideline that says that? Even if there is such a guideline, that wouldn't change the fact that distinguishing some Ukrainians by spelling their names in Russian is a really bad idea. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:32, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know if there is an official guideline for Ukrainian names but I've participated in many discussions before. It follows the same idea as WP:COMMONNAME for people who elect to change the spelling of their names or go by middle name (such as Jude Law, not David Law). Renaming articles about Ukrainians who prefer Russian spelling in order to use the Ukrainian spelling purely for nationalistic reasons is equally bad. There are Ukrainians who do not want the official Ukrainian version the state assigns them, for whatever reason (ie being ethnic Russians, being pro-Russia, or simply preferring the name their parents gave them, such as Ukrainians named Nikolai who do not want to be known as Mykola). This would work the same way in reverse - ie Russian-born Ukrainians who use the Ukrainian version rather than the Russian version. (Btw I want to emphasize I don't have any pro-Russian bias. I've tried and failed along with everyone else to get Wikipedia to move the Russian Kiev to Ukrainian Kyiv...😠 😠 😠 ). —МандичкаYO 😜 07:35, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Agree that distinguishing some Ukrainians by spelling their names in Russian is a really bad idea. Andrewa (talk) 09:17, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nomination. When considered in terms of Ukrainian cultural legacy, the poet immeasurably exceeds the railroad executive in historical significance. The Ukrainian article, which is appended as a cite, describes him as a legendary figure, the author of over 40 books, whose poetry and prose has been translated into numerous languages, including Russian, Czech, Slovak, Polish, Serbian, Romanian and Italian. As far as transliteration of his name is concerned, there is also no question that it should be the Ukrainian form, "Borys Oliynik". In linguistic terms, a poet's most intimate relationship is with the sound and expression of his native tongue and, for Oliynik, it was Ukrainian — the language of his poetry and thought. As an intellectual, he was also a fluent writer in Russian and wrote his name in its Russian form, "Boris Oleynik", when circumstances warranted, but there should be no question as to his Ukrainian identity. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 04:59, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

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Railway director is no less important... Thanks for joining the discussion. Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline reads in part If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article or list. Are there such sources? Or is there another notability test that the Ukrzaliznytsya director satisfies? I note that all but two of Ukrainian Railways#Directors are currently redlinks. Andrewa (talk) 04:47, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Andrewa, Of course, there are plenty of sources. One should spent a time to find. Please, check my latest edits at Borys Oliynyk (Ukrzaliznytsia). Borys Stepanovych Oliynyk is definitely more notable that the poet. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 05:34, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If there are plenty of sources, can you give some examples? Andrewa (talk) 06:48, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Traffic on the RU/UA version of articles suggest the poet is more notable. —МандичкаYO 😜 07:30, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
This is getting quite complicated. Those articles are not themselves considered reliable sources on English Wikipedia, but the sources they cite probably qualify (but may not as the English Wikipedia policy on sources may differ from that of the Russian and Ukrainian Wikipedias). So we still need to cite these sources. Two of the three cited in our article at Borys Oliynyk (Ukrzaliznytsia) appear to be obituaries, and don't establish the notability of the subject IMO. Andrewa (talk) 05:31, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
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