Talk:Black hair

Myth

You are being ridiculous — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.230.224.243 (talk) 19:52, 30 October 2019 (UTC) I think this page needs to state that true black hair doesn't actually exist and that it's just a very dark shade of brown as i like to call it, virtually black, and i think it should state that the darkest shade of hair (as close to black as possible) exists within people of non-european ancestry/non-caucasians, a european/caucasian with virtually black hair will not be as dark as an african or asian with virtually black hair, this is due to all europeans/caucasians having some sort of blonde ancestry — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.174.147.166 (talk) 08:01, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Here, black is used just as informal description of the color. I don't think anyone actually believes that black hair is hair completely absent of color. Many things are referred to as black-colored without people feeling the need to explain that it is not "true black". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.160.236.81 (talk) 22:30, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

The way this article refers to black hair is as if it actually exists when it doesn't, I strongly think that this page needs to say black hair is common among non-Caucasians and that it's technically an extremely dark brown which is why brunette (brown) is a commonly used term to refer to virtually black hair and that a more appropriate term for virtually black hair is noirette or raven head. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.174.147.166 (talk) 12:22, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Let's not be splitting hairs here (pun intended). True blackness would imply that the object absorbs light entirely and does not reflect any light, and least not in the visible part of the spectrum. In that strict sense, there are hardly any "true" black objects in existence, and still people commonly use the adjective "black" to refer to things which are, to all appearances and for practical purposes, black. Why shouldn't we follow that usage when it comes to hair? SchnitteUK (talk) 15:44, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

I strongly agree that a note on this fact would serve the article well. There is a huge amount of ignorance on the subject of black hair (i.e. many people do assume that black hair is literally black.) Druff (talk) 17:21, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

This is a completely ridiculous qualification. There are no true blackbodies in nature, and in fact, there are also no materials with a truly flat absorption spectrum. Therefore, if we restrict the word "black" to only blackbodies, then we have to call every single object commonly called black something to the effect of "extremely dark [insert hue]". I've seen my hair after getting a haircut. It is darker than my black leather shoes and my black plastic laptop charger. It's as dark as matte black spray paint and my suit jacket. If you went into photoshop to digitally lighten my hair until its hue became visible, it's as likely to come out green or purple as brown. My hair is not unusual or unique, and I know many people whose hair is similarly dark. The disclaimer that black hair is a myth is confusing and optically meaningless. The only meaning I can think of for it to have (which is not given in the article) is that black and brown hair share the same eumelanin allele genotype. However, seeing as black hair is more common, earlier in evolutionary history, and more representative of the eumelanin phenotype, it is clearly more appropriate to say that brown hair is an intermediate between black and blonde hair with the addition of some moderate pheomelanin.

On a final note: In a culture that is happy to call European skin "white" and African skin "black", are we really going to refuse to call a colour that is actually very close to black by its most descriptive name? appa609 (talk) 11:52, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Indo-Europeans in Lithuania immediately went blonde from black

Then lots of people died out, there's a mutation, low food supply, mass population reduction, genetic drift, selective pressure against black and for blonde because of distinction and that blonde turns gray much later, and that's the explanation. Brown hair is a heterozygous condition. Redheadness is when the auburn allele is expressed with a blonde allele. In Indo-European places like Iran and even India, you'll find many people with a mix of red and dark in their hair because they lack the blonde allele --75.159.2.59 (talk) 07:26, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Corrections

Africans have the most ancient alleles (genes), which means they are the most genetically diverse. Therefore, Africans can have curly, straight coarse, wavy hair textures and ranging from jet black to red, brown, or blonde. Black, red, brown and blonde hair colors are also found among indigenous Australians, as well. Blonde hair existed among African populations before migrations to other continents where human geographical adaptation ocurred. Ariagia 04:42 Ariagia (talk) 20:48, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

it's most genetically diverse because Africa is multi racial continent. most genetically diverse means most multi-racial not most ancient, which makes no sense. -Leonidas-

Some minor tweaking

Someone included a picture of an Aeta woman and said she was of African descent, so I decided to go ahead and get a better picture (of a much prettier lady at that!) while I was editing. ~~X-Calator 02:23, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Question

What the hell does the statement ...africa, india and asia have black hair. Is India out of Asia? Maquahuitl 07:25, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

i don't know either... is it still there??Australian Jezza 08:14, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

No, India is part of Asia. Who's bright idea that was I'll never know. That's like making Ireland part of Egypt. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.79.254.63 (talk) 20:01, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Nonsensical

"with completely black or deep black"... someone tell me the difference 134.82.90.100 03:48, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

lately heard of black brown, soft black and like pure black. a lot of black-haired ppl, like me, will show certian tone under the sunlight, but some wont. anyone have more idea?--MeowKun | Meowi Talk 02:23, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Consensus?

The edit summary for this new page claimed that this page was created after a consensus decision. Could someone link me to this consensus?--HubHikari 18:05, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Please check the Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jet black hair page. 168.253.15.112 18:39, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Western popular culture section

Interesting topic, but this section needs sources and some discussion of other attitudes to black hair. What about Snow White, for instance? See [1]. Or the 'tall, dark and handsome' cliché hero? --HJMG 16:15, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Japanese Schools

The part about Japanese schools forcing students with naturally different-colored hair to dye their hair black sounds suspicious. There are plenty of Japanese with naturally brown or red hair,No, Japenese people Only Have Black hair, your wrong and I find it hard to believe that schools force them to dye it black. What, do they get suspended if the go too long between dye-jobs and their light roots start to show?

Since it's unsourced and uncited, I'm going to remove it until someone has more info. Roland Deschain 14:00, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Eh? I thought "my hair's naturally brown" was just an excuse students used in order to get away with dyed hair. --Kjoonlee 02:31, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, im Chinese, and when i was young im have like natural chestnut brown hair with like a little red or blond streal, according to my mom. When i was young i have teacher asked me if my dyed my hair and kids pick different colour in my hair. then when i get older my hair do turn darker yet i still have like highlight and blond hair and so on, i am not sure if that is the case. --MeowKun | Meowi Talk 02:21, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

• My fiancee is Japanese and her sister has naturally red hair. It's not red the way someone from my (Irish-American) family would have red hair, but red nonetheless. Roland Deschain 05:20, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Photos, Phonecians and 'Fros

Just explaining a few changes I've made:

• Whoever removed the picture of the Asian guy gave no reason, so I put him back at the top of the page. I like this pic because it clearly shows the hair. I also added the pic of the goth girl, because it seemed relevant to the "Culture" bit (got that pic from the gothic subculture article). I removed the photos of celebs (Pierce Brosnan, John Travolta, Steven Saunders and Elvis Presley) because they didn't really add anything and it was just a long column of pics with no text beside them. Maybe if the article grows they can be added again to give a bit of color.
• I took out the sentence: "This anthropological strain is believed to originate from a mixture between the dark Phoenician settlers and the blue-eyed Celtic invaders." (in relation to black hair in Ireland and Britain). There was no source for this and I find it unlikely that the Phonecians added any significant genes to these populations. Feel free to reinstate the sentence if you find a reliable source.
• I added a bit about hair texture. In particular, I thought the link to afro textured hair was relevant.Fionah 14:29, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Black or possibly brown?

When you look closely at African, Mediterranean, Arabian and Indians you can see that its dark brunette, not really black. Does this means that they are actually not black hair? East Asian have the darkest black hair, its virtually jet black. CanCanDuo 07:40, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Hmm.. I'm Asian too and mine's just dark brown. Just saying. mirageinred 19:12, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

An Asian friend of mine (from Japan) told me that most people from her country DO have black hair, and that even dark brown is very scarce among Asians. She added that most people who claim to have a brown shade merely dye slightly their hair to look different (or use some light products to bleach a very small way their natural black hair). What is more, she told me how disappointed she felt to hear many people claim to have 'very dark brown hair' just because they were unwilling to admit that they had true black hair. Like her, I wonder why so many people are eager to use the wrong way the word "brown". Is it just to feel closer to Caucasian people? Why do so many people look for a highlight in their hair not to admit they have black hair? I also noticed that this weird behavior is far more common among non-white people. Is this the expression of a racial complex? I am afraid so...

@cancaduo: are you serious, African and Indian people have brown hair? Nope, they have black hair and this suits them perfectly. As to mediterranean people, they too have very often black hair (I have travelled and met people from over the world, so I can tell: if we exclude small cheat just what I said above about some Japanese people, very very few have brown hair, they just won't admit it).

What a silly fashion: some people are so eager to get closer to European standards, even in the very words they use to describe themselves. They willingly avoid the word "black", for their eyes, hair and sometimes skin, even when it is the mere truth about them, because "brown" sounds cool in our Caucasian-center society. If you have any doubt, please watch this: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9142171923095749295 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.167.84.2 (talk) 13:15, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

it just called black hair even though it is just really extremely dark brown hair, this is because with out putting light straight into your hair, or the sun is straight in you hair, it looks blackAustralian Jezza 08:13, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Well some people do have really dark brown hair, but I know for a fact that I have black black hair, because there is absolutely no other colored highlight it in.

Having truly black hair, or black anything is next to impossible, to have proper black hair it would have to absorb all frequencies of light which only a few objects are capable of. So yeah, black hair is really just very dark brown hair, it's why some black hair dyes look really strange, it's because they use dark blue instead of dark brown to create the look of black hair. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.46.59.96 (talk) 11:13, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Copyedit

I've made some much-needed copy-edits to this article. I reorganized content, and removed some redundant or senseless content (see my HTML comments in the article).

The article is either completely OR or is simply undercited. I have tagged the article accordingly. --Otheus 22:14, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Is this for real?

The original hair colour of Homo sapiens?

Lunakeet 20:23, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

All great apes have black hair, except for Orangutans (apes that have no souls). --75.159.2.59 (talk) 22:43, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Since this was in the article since this 2006 edit, without a source, even though tagged about a year ago, I have now removed this statement. The editor who originally added this statement is not around any more to ask him. Debresser (talk) 17:15, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

Other hair colors?

Do some people have hair color that is outside of the range of the human visual spectrum? like somebody might have infrared hair, or ultraviolet hair. sometimes i look at bald people and think they might just have a whole mane of hair emitting a wavelength of like 2.4 Ghz. i might try to get bald people to come over and see if they interfere with my phones or wireless LAN.

seriously, it's possible.

66.190.142.200 (talk) 08:23, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

brunettes are definetely dominate to blondes —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.14.15.122 (talk) 00:49, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

That is ridiculous, to you their hair may look transparent, but your implying that blad guys have invisible hair ?????? --75.159.2.59 (talk) 22:58, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Lacking many details

This article is very short and poorly detailed compared to the ones on red hair and blonde hair. Can't we provide more more for this page? Especially someone made a comment about pop culture references such as "tall dark and handsome" being left out on this page, as well as notable dark-haired people such as Snow White, Harry Potter (character) ( his mom got a mention in the red hair article by the way, along with the Weasleys and Albus Dumbledore, whom I didn't even know was a red-head) Amy Lee of Evanescence, Elizabeth Taylor among many other references in pop and general culture as well. Even the scientific part of the article (which is basically the whole article) is very short form. It's practically a stub. --Crackthewhip775 (talk) 22:04, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

More than 14 years later, this article remains poorly sourced. So much so that I can’t understand (from the current reference list) why this topic is notable enough to have an article at all. Brianjd (talk) 07:39, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Pierce Brosnan, Jennifer Connelly, Catherine Zeta-Jones, Courteney Cox Arquette, Demi Moore, Michael Ballack

These actors all have dark brown to very dark brown hair NOT black. I am removing Pierce Brosnan from this list. Also, his natural hair is a very dark chestnut brown, but now dyes it a very dark warm brown (like Jennifer Connelly's and Demi Moore's).--CreativeSoul7981 (talk) 01:44, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

VERY DARK BROWN HAIR (German Michael Ballack) - I am deleting his photo, too, since dark brown hair can appear almost black in some light. His photo does NOT belong under Black hair. Just look up his photos in google images or yahoo images.--CreativeSoul7981 (talk) 06:29, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Gallery

With this edit, I am restoring an earlier version of the gallery, now alphabetized. Editors should feel free to add photos if they are of good quality, but changes ought to be discussed on the talk page and/or in edit summaries. Adding or removing without commentary or explanation is bad manners. The Greek girl photo, Greeknoirette.jpg, is terrible and I will propose deletion: it's some holiday snapshot of a girl with sunglasses, and she's sitting in the shade. Surely we can do better than that. Drmies (talk) 18:25, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

That is fine. Actually, I'm pretty sure that girl's hair is dark brown anyways, and it just looks black in that lighting. I was referring to the person who removed the Japanese man's photo in my edit summary earlier.--CreativeSoul7981 (talk) 23:49, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

I think all hair types should have a gallery or not. Hastengeims (talk) 01:51, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Black Hair Image

Could someone add a photo of a Nordic person with black hair? Like the article states, black is the most universal hair color, so I think it would be great to emphasize the fact with a photo of a nordic person with black hair. I'm finnish, and I have black hair (EXTREMELY rare here!) but I don't really know how to upload pics —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.130.22.154 (talk) 17:56, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

• It better be natural black hair, because alot of them dye their hair black so we can't be too sure unless we see blonde roots growing out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.159.2.59 (talk • contribs) 22:56, 20 June 2011

Black haired Nordic People

Some Sami people have been noted to have black hair, and they are indigenous to Scandinavia, other than that it is pretty rare, when I first read that statement, the first thing that came to my mind is black haired Nordic people. --75.159.2.59 (talk) 22:52, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

You heard the Guy!

User:82.130.22.154 has a good point. If black hair can occur anywhere, why not emphasize that through images on this article! Gigogag (talk) 15:29, 29 December 2009 (UTC) Whil your at it, guys, check out my user page: User:Gigogag.

C'mon!

All this time and STILL nobody's listened to those guys suggestions! C'mon! Dock26 Pwnage (talk) 20:27, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Blond, brunet, redhead...

There are the terms blond, brunet, and redhead but, is there a term for people with black hair? 142.167.188.210 (talk) 02:47, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, noirette. Or, just black-haired, raven-haired. CreativeSoul7981 (talk) 12:36, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Cool, I like ravens! Anyway, thanks for your response, now I know what to call my friend. : ) 142.167.189.102 (talk) 02:10, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Pakistan and Anatolia

Please do NOT add Pakistan to the list, though Indo-European Pashtuns and other Aryan tribes/those of mixed Aryan descent may have dark hair and light eyes. The referenced articles do not mention Pakistan by name anywhere. Only the listed countries or peoples in the article are allowed unless a legitimate source can be added that specifically mentions Pakistan, Southern India, or other Indo-European country or specific tribes/peoples. Please note the source here as well. Thanks. CreativeSoul7981 (talk) 01:18, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

I have edited the title of this section to include Anatolia. Please do NOT add Pakistan or Anatolia to the list regarding dark hair and light eyes. Although the referenced article mentions Anatolia, it is not referenced to in the section written about dark hair/red hair and light eyes like Iran and northern India. I am not saying I disagree, but please follow Wikipedia rules and add a source that specifically mentions Pakistan and the region of Anatolia/Turkey with regards to the dark hair and light eyes description of this article. Thank you. CreativeSoul7981 (talk) 19:52, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

Not a Myth

I'm mainly of Portuguese descent, with some African (1/8) and possibly some Native Brazilian ancestry, and I have jet black hair. See pictures here: http://imgur.com/a/dNxxV

My great-grandmother is said to have had pure jet black hair, so I suspect she had some Indigenous ancestry and I inherited the black hair from her. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:908:F68A:B80:1176:9936:6FE2:C962 (talk) 03:23, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Laurence Mettewie.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 18:38, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

Regarding the density of black hair.

The statement regarding the density of black hair on the main Human Hair Color page directly contradicts what is said on this page.

First, it is unclear what is meant by density.

The main page states: "It has large amounts of eumelanin and is more dense than other hair colors."

This page states that: "It has large amounts of eumelanin and is less dense than other hair colors."

Both statements apparently used to cite different sources, but only the main page does now. This page no longer cites a source as of this writing. The Human Hair Color page cites: Ito, S.; Wakamatsu, K. (2011). "Diversity of human hair pigmentation as studied by chemical analysis of eumelanin and pheomelanin". Journal of the European Academy of Dermatology and Venereology. 25 (12): 1369–1380.

Apparently, black hair color is not co-related to hair density, according to this source. It says that while Asian black hair is the least dense, African black hair is quite dense. By the way please remember to sign your posts with four tildes ~ Zacharycmango (talk) 05:30, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

It looks like someone's already corrected this contradiction (though without a source). I've added a CN tag and removed the notice. Edderiofer (talk) 16:08, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

References

Problematic sentence.

There's a bolded sentence that reads simply "I don't like black people honestly."...

I'm not sure how to edit things yet as I would remove this myself; but I am going to presume someone wrote that hatefully. Also would like to note that there are (perhaps uncoincidentally) no images of African phenotype black hair in this article whatsoever. Potatobird52 (talk) 22:49, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Nothing about African people?

I notice that this article has a lack of information on black hair in African people or people with African descent, nor are any such people featured in the gallery. The only mention of these people is in the sentence "Black hair is most common in Asia and Africa." in the Distribution section. I'm not at all an expert on genetics or on hair, so I've added a POV template in the hopes that someone with more knowledge can add this information. (If I've used the wrong template, please WP:BEBOLD and correct it.) Edderiofer (talk) 16:40, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

I think all hair color articles should have a gallery and not emphasize hair color by a specific ethnicity. Hastengeims (talk) 03:01, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Black American Music 209

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 23 October 2022 and 15 December 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): EmBug2004 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by EmBug2004 (talk) 16:57, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Inheritance

i removed two uncited descriptions of black hair as a "dominant trait". human hair color and other pigmentary traits are very complex and do not boil down to a simple mendelian complete dominance/recessive inheritance model such as the Davenport model; see the following links for explanations:

https://www.thetech.org/ask-a-geneticist/articles/2013/how-can-you-tell-which-features-are-dominant-in-a-family/

https://www.evergreen.edu/sites/default/files/trio/upwardbound/docs/eyecolor.pdf

there is already widespread public misunderstanding about inheritance; might as well do better for our readers and keep it simple.

there is another problem in this article i should comment on. it delves in to all this stuff about the special EDAR gene in East Asians and Native Americans, but this gene has nothing to do with black hair.

also, in the galllery there are pictures of Native American women with various hair textures, and they are billed as having the "G-alelle" or "A-allele" of EDAR. but, it doesn't look like the women in these photos were a part of any kind of study that would determine that. i suspect that what has really happened here is this: someone found pictures of Native American women, and brainstormed that those with straight hair have the "A-allele", and those with curly hair have the "G-allele". that's original research, no? 2603:8080:2C00:1E00:A59A:F7B2:415:5E02 (talk) 18:31, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Still propose deletion, “black” hair does not exist

Black hair does not exist any more than black skin does (only very dark brown). Calling hair “black” is simply a racialized way to indicate a non-white person with dark brown hair.

There are many non-factual statements in the article.

At an absolute minimum, the biological non-existence of black hair should be stated at the beginning of the article. AveryBarr (talk) 20:39, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Hi, black hair exists! I'm a latino from Brazil, I'm a white mestizo and I have natural black curly hair (3A hair type) 45.165.128.25 (talk) 09:34, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

It's not a myth, I have black hair and it's very rare 45.165.128.25 (talk) 09:53, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

I can take photos of my hair if you want to see it 45.165.128.25 (talk) 09:56, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Not everyone with Black hair is having a brown pigment 2601:46:37F:930:C5DD:1D0:EA7:38C4 (talk) 01:00, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Are all shades of black hair brown

Black hair is often believed to be brown but i think that it’s usually blue for Hispanics and brown for the lightest shades 2600:4040:7342:7100:85FD:4F2D:2B91:E338 (talk) 20:23, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Black hair exists! But it's rare

Hi people, black hair exists and it's rare! I'm a latino from Brazil, I'm a white mestizo and I have natural jet black curly hair (3A hair type), there's a difference between black hair and dark brown hair, combine the two into one category is so wrong 45.165.128.25 (talk) 13:28, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

One of the provided sources states that "Black is the commonly seen hair color in Asia and Africa due to the fact that the people in these regions tend to have lower levels of tyrosinase in their bodies." Some users have been trying to change this article to refer to a subset of what's currently defined as back hair only. Please discuss changes first. User-generated sources like Quora, or inappropriate sources like "Hair color personality test" will only get reverted, and WP:EDITWARRING will get you blocked. Greenman (talk) 22:30, 22 April 2024 (UTC)