Talk:Bicycle kick/GA1

GA Review 1

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Reviewer: Alpinu (talk · contribs) 18:35, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Neutrality

Adjectives should be avoided:

(section: "Name"): "there exists a fierce controversy between Chile and Peru—as part of their historic sports rivalry—over the naming of the bicycle kick" (the text should read "there exists a controversy over the naming of the bicycle kick").

"less tendentious" (this text should be omitted).

Alphabetical order:

(section: "Name"): "; Peruvians call it the chalaca, while Chileans know it as the chilena" (the text should read "; Chileans know it as the chilena, while Peruvians call it the chalaca" [compare "The controversy over the move's invention and name in Brazil, Chile, and Peru" in the intro]).--Alpinu (talk) 18:35, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Answer: I've addressed the "alphabetical order" point, despite considering a totally irrelevant matter to raise. In fact, it is very ridiculous to consider the order of two statements in a sentence to be a problem of neutrality. That type of suggestion isn't fit for a professional review. There is also no reason to remove what you claim are "adjectives"; these are sourced explanations that are perfectly valid.--MarshalN20 ^Talk 04:27, 22 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Objectivity

The article has a variety of references, and shows different viewpoints. Congratulations.

Nevertheless, and taking into account material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, references should always be objective and factual and not based on someone else's assumptions or on sources with mistakes: Barraza mentions rather vague Chilean sources ("Chilean newspaper records from 1900 also name the bicycle kick as a chalaca"). In addition, there is information which is not accurate: the first record of the chalaca dates back to 1924 [1], the Chilean newspapers citing it are from Santiago in 1935 [2] and the manoeuvre called chorera / chilena dates back to 1910s [1914: O'Brien, Richard (2005). «Soccer: How to perform a bicycle kick»], [1918: [3] ].--Alpinu (talk) 20:44, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Answer: Yes, the article has a variety of references from different viewpoints. I've worked hard to read all of the available literature on the topic prior to submitting it for GA review. That is how I work; that is why I already have written, submitted, and gotten approved three featured articles. Anyhow, moving on to your points:

I have included the 1924 date into the article.
Roberto Castro does not state that the newspapers are from Santiago. Please read the text again: "De hecho, por ello durante algún tiempo en Chile a la jugada se la conoció como chalaca, tal como ocurre en otros países de la región como Ecuador o Colombia" (In fact, for some time in Chile was known as chalaca, the same as it occurs in other countries in the region like Ecuador or Colombia).
The 1910s date has been added. It's a complicated matter since different sources provide different dates for Unzaga's first kick: 1914, 1916, 1918. There's nothing exact about it aside from the 1918 date, likely due to the legal nature of it (the fist fight is a wonderful anecdote, by the way).--MarshalN20 ^Talk 04:51, 22 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for including the 1924 date into the article. If the first record of the "chalaca" dates back to 1924, it certainly deserves to be included.
R. Castro states that the manoeuvre was performed in Santiago and that is why it was known as "chalaca": "Años después, en 1935, cuando Alianza Lima hizo la famosa gira por Chile en la que saltó a la palestra el afamado 'Rodillo Negro' del ataque íntimo, Villanueva ejecutó la jugada y maravilló a la afición de Santiago, que aparentemente no la había visto muchas veces. De hecho, por ello durante algún tiempo en Chile a la jugada se la conoció como chalaca, tal como ocurre en otros países de la región como Ecuador o Colombia." Was it known (only) orally...? If there were records, they would be from newspapers from Santiago.
Yes, it is a complicated matter because depending on the source there are different dates for R. Unzaga's first kick (1914, 1916, 1918), but since we have to provide all the available viewpoints based on the records/references... (and yep, the fist fight is a great anecdote).--Alpinu (talk) 20:05, 22 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Answer: There's a problem of interpretation here. The word "Santiago" only appears a couple of times in the article, neither in reference to newspapers. Regardless, "Chilean newspapers" are inclusive of those from Santiago (assuming that is your concern).--MarshalN20 ^Talk 16:49, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Reliability

Ref 43: Kike Giles, "La 'Chalaca' de Ronaldinho" does not seem to be reliable: ("Todo indica que (la jugada) es peruana, se le conoce internacionalmente como chilena, lo patentó un español y tomó nombre en Argentina. Los primeros en hacerla, según testimonios periodísticos muy antiguos y relatos orales, fueron los negros del puerto del Callao, donde tuvo su nacimiento el fútbol peruano [...] A fines del sigo XIX y comienzos del XX, eran frecuentes los enfrentamientos entre chilenos y peruanos, muy conectados a través de los viajes marítimos entre Valparaíso y el Callao. Allí fue donde los marineros y futbolistas chilenos y británicos habrían visto hacer esta maravilla futbolera", acotó Barraza [...] Inclusive fueron los mismos chilenos quienes llamaron a dicha jugada 'chalaca', gentilicio propio de los oriundos del puerto limeño, lo cual reforzaría la teoría de que la pirueta tuvo su origen en nuestro país. Entonces, ¿cómo se llegó a llamar 'chilena'? Cuenta la historia que en 1917, el chileno Ramón Unzaga (futbolista español que jugaba por la selección de Chile, cosa permisible en esa tiempo) realizó varias veces esa jugada en el torneo Sudamericano de Argentina, y las personas comenzaron a llamarla 'chilena' ").

Rather vague sources: What ancient records? Could either oral tradition or tales be accurate to transmit this kind of information? Most of that text seems to be speculation. In addition, the ref. has six mistakes according to the facts:

If the manoeuvre had been called "chalaca" in Chile, it would have been in 1935's newspapers [4] not before (consider that the first record of that name in Peru dates back to 1924 [5]).
Ramón Unzaga became a Chilean citizen in 1912, when he was 18,[Palmira Oyanguren, (27 de enero-3 de febrero de 2006). «La "chilena" es cosa de vascos». Euskonews.com; César Ortúzar (3 de septiembre de 2008). «La jugada más bella». Deia] therefore he was not a "Spanish football player" in 1917.
Unzaga was a member of the national football team in 1916 [6] and in 1920 [7], not in 1917.
Unzaga did not take part in 1917 Campeonato Sudamericano [8].
The 1917 edition of that championship was not in Argentina but in Uruguay [9].
The manoeuvre was called "chilena" by Argentine press in 1920 [Carlo Giacomini (2005), «8. São Paulo 3 x 3 Corinthians (1942)». São Paulo: dentre os grandes, és o primeiro. Rio de Janeiro: Ediouro Publicações. p. 64. ISBN 85-00-01572-1; Palmira Oyanguren, (27 de enero-3 de febrero de 2006). «La "chilena" es cosa de vascos». Euskonews.com].--Alpinu (talk) 06:17, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Answer What is the Kike Giles source citing? Ah, yes, a direct quote from Barraza. Is it citing any of these things you point out? I'll let you answer that one.--MarshalN20 ^Talk 16:34, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have written "Ref 43: Kike Giles, "La 'Chalaca' de Ronaldinho" does not seem to be reliable" (regardless of what it cites) and the evidence: vague sources and a series of mistakes (one mistake could pass, two mistakes could be a coincidence, but three mistakes are a custom). You should cite Barraza's article(s) instead. Best regards.--Alpinu (talk) 03:43, 30 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]