Talk:Bicycle kick

Origin - Unzaga?

This article is tendentious. It completely hides the true inventor of the bicycle kick, Ramón Unzaga: "The important seaport of Chile in Talcahuano also has a bicycle kick tradition dating back to the 1910s, when Ramón Unzaga, a Basque athlete born in Spain and a naturalized Chilean supposedly invented the maneuver known locally as chorera (also alluding to the local demon)? In addition, confuses the reader with respect to the death of David Arellano: "his untimely death on that tour due to an injury caused by one of his acrobatics"? This is not true. Arellano died of peritonitis after receiving a strong blow, product of the fall of a rival in his stomach (Arellano previously suffered from a hernia). Many efforts to hide the 'chilena', its origion and difussion. A-orionis (talk) 17:31, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

The maneuvre's origin is unclear, as indicated by the sources, so no assertion is made as to where exactly it was invented. Only possibilities and likelihoods are mentioned.

Arellano did, in fact, die as a result of his acrobatics. Certainly, his "rival" did not murder him.--MarshalN20 ^✉🕊 21:18, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

The maneuvre's origin is unclear only for one part involved. Theory about the 'chilena': Player: Ramón Unzaga Asla. Date: January, 1914. Field: El Morro, Talcahuano. What did Unzaga say?:

"On two occasions the referee charged me a  foul  for a luxury jump I gave to reject the ball, alleging that I committed foul against the opposing player del Río. This same player took advantage of my movement and the referee charged me the foul. I was forced to observe the referee's error, claiming that recognized judges had not penalized me". (El Sur, Concepción, December 31, 1918).

Theory about the 'chalaca': Player: ? Date: ? Field: ? What did Jorge Barraza say? (The journalist who supports this theory): I have no doubt that it is 'chalaca', but the world already knows it as 'chilena' and it is difficult to change it. Rare that in Peru they have not looked for the proofs that demonstrate it. (twit dated on april 4, 2018). Regarding Arellano, He died as a result of an unfortunate accident. Nobody talks about a murder. https://elpais.com/deportes/2018/04/11/actualidad/1523445557_582852.html Greetings. A-orionis (talk) 01:28, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

For specific information regarding Arellano's death, the article David Arellano is available for improvement. The source cited indicates Arellano's acrobatic showboating is what ultimately caused the injury that, in turn, led to his untimely death. This is relevant information about an article concerning an acrobatic football skill, which he reportedly performed in numerous occasions.

As for the origin of the bicycle kick, the sources indicate that this is unclear. Wikipedia is not the place to right great wrongs.

By the way, Unzaga's cited statement is vague about what exactly he performed that the referee charged as a foul.--MarshalN20 ^✉🕊 01:51, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

"After Unzaga demonstrated his aptitude for the jaw-dropping stunt several times during the 1916 and 1920 Copa America tournaments, many Spanish Speakers took to calling it a "chilena" a designation that endures to this day. https://www.fifa.com/the-best-fifa-football-awards/news/the-bicycle-kick-football-s-most-spectacular-sight-2862019 People already know. Greetings A-orionis (talk) 04:37, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing that article. To quote it, "But whether it emerged from Brazil, Chile or Peru, all the evidence does seem to point towards South American origins."

Basadre never writes about the bicycle kick, nonetheless, so the article itself is not free from errors.

Anyhow, unless you have any other points to address about the article, this discussion seems to have run its course.

Regards.--MarshalN20 ^✉🕊 05:03, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

I wish you success with your legends A-orionis (talk) 19:31, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

Alright. Thank you.--MarshalN20 ^✉🕊 22:04, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

definition

I would argue that the bicycle kick & scissors kick are not the same. I fail to see any 'bicycle' movement in the scissor kick in which the legs are essentially straight. The bicycle kick when I played was a method of getting over the ball when it was above ground level but below waist height. The player jumped in the air, did a cycling motion with his feet and connected with the ball. The obvious difference is that in the scissors kick the ball arrives above waist height, with the bicycle kick it arrives below waist height.Labocetta (talk) 13:46, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

English football fans have been getting this wrong for decades. Ask a Spanish speaker what "La Bicicleta" is and you'll get a totally different move. After all, the South Americans invented La Bicicleta and the English took the name and used it for a totally different move, which is known throughout the World as the scissor kick. In Spanish speaking countries the Scissor or Overhead kick is known as "La Chilena". However, getting a know-all English fan to admit their error is pointless as they never will. Prudens Hominem (talk) 17:28, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

"La Bicicleta" and "a Bicycle kick" while having superficially similar names have never been confused for each other. Hence why the Portuguese describe the latter as "pontapé de bicicleta" rather than just "bicicleta". The Spanish "Bicicleta" is what we refer, in English, as a "Step over". Now you can ask why that article doesn't reference the Spanish name for the same move, but claiming that the "English" have confused an overhead kick with a dribbling motion is not only very unlikely, but also not supported by any reliable sources. Koncorde (talk) 19:54, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Furthermore, asserting what "Spanish speaking countries" call the move is problematic. As indicated in the article, the name varies depending on location. Trying to impose a name over another just because that's what you think it should be called isn't correct. Let everyone enjoy the game their own way.--MarshalN20 ^✉🕊 21:44, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Bicycle kick is either jumping up, or falling backwards, and using your feet to strike the ball that is above your head. In both cases the ball arrives above shoulder height (usually) and you are using your momentum to drive your feet at a ball that you otherwise cannot strike.

The bicycle motion was in the generation of that momentum, usually while bringing up the kicking leg after using to to propel upwards, the other leg is brought down sharply and are in a cycling motion. Fundamentally it might look like a bicycle motion, or scissor motion of the legs. However a lot of players achieve it just with straight legs, or do so at a position somewhere between waist and shoulder. The common theme would be both feet from the ground and an expectation that the body is at least horizontal.

What you describe (which sounds similar to Di Canio's volleyed goal against Wimbledon, or McManaman's CL goal for Real Madrid) may also be described as a scissor kick, or scissor motion, or may have a cycle motion with the leg but it isn't what this article is about, nor supported by a reliable source. Koncorde (talk) 16:58, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

Gareth Bale?

No mention of Gareth Bale's wonder goal in the 2018 Champions League Final? For me and many others superior to the Ronaldo goal from the same year which is included in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 154.159.140.225 (talk) 13:40, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Bicycle kick and Scissors kick.

"Bicycle kick" and "Scissors kick" should not be exchangeable.

A bicycle kick is an overhead kick if the player's back is closer to the ground than his side when performing the feat.

A bicycle kick is a scissor kick if his side is closer to the ground than his back when performing the feat. The orientation of the body of the player won't allow the ball to be above his head. So, there is no way it can be called an "overhead" kick.

The problem is that both feats involve a scissors-like movement. So, terms like "bicycle kick" and "scissors kick" are somewhat ambiguous. Neither would make good "umbrella" term, in my opinion. But, I guess its use is too spread in English.

Overhead kick is a good name if the ball is above the head when performing it. It is called chilena or, chalaca in Spanish.

Scissors kick, in my opinion should be used for what in Spanish is called tijera or, media chilena.

In the Spanish Wikipedia there are two entries as you can realize. So, why should they be the same in English? At least, there should be two sub-sections in this article.

In Spain, they initially used the terms, "tijera" and "media tijera", respectively, in the early days of these feats (which made things confusing). But, that didn't last too long. They, later, adopted the most common terminology used in South America.

Additionally, I consider the term "bicycle kick" to be misleading or too vague. In my opinion, it never resembles a pedaling-like movement. Even further, as it has already been noted at this talk page, "la bicicleta", in Spanish, is a feint used to puzzle an opposite marking player in an attempt to clear him or a goalkeeper before shooting to goal.

Source: I am Ecuadorian. (Yes, Ecuador is in South America) Do I need additional credentials?

George Rodney Maruri Game (talk) 04:59, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

This is the English language article, so everything is defined by the usage in the English language. This article is about the Overhead Kick only (per all the photographs and the diagrams). The reference to a Scissor Kick is because of the leg motion, however almost no English commentators would typically use the term scissor kick to describe an overhead kick, they do often use Bicycle Kick however. It is mentioned in this article because some sources do use the term however, because functionally the technical aspects are the same. Nobody in English speaking would use the term "la bicicleta" to confuse the subject as it isn't a kick. Koncorde (talk) 15:34, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

It's not clear to me what exactly is being suggested as a change. Regardless, Koncorde is correct in that the entry here is a reflection of the usage in English. Other languages are mentioned for their interesting history in relation to the maneuver, but that's about it.--MarshalN20 ^✉🕊 22:22, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

This also happens in Australian rules football ...

Soccer is not the only football code which has this move. It is also in Australian rules football. But mention of it keeps getting removed. There are some prominent Goal of the Year (AFL) examples.

Here is a very recent example: https://7news.com.au/sport/afl/watch-collingwood-big-man-brody-mihocek-pulls-off-miracle-soccer-style-scissor-kick-to-seal-win-c-10574774 Rulesfan (talk) 04:23, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Disagree. In your example, Mihocek kicked the ball softly over his head while falling backwards with one foot still on the ground - does not meet the bicycle kick definition. At best, it occurs occasionally by accident in Australian football, so far short of its status as a highly celebrated soccer skill that it does not bear mentioning. Aspirex (talk) 04:18, 10 May 2023 (UTC)