Talk:Bengal monitor

	Bengal monitor is part of WikiProject Amphibians and Reptiles, an effort to make Wikipedia a standardized, informative, comprehensive and easy-to-use resource for amphibians and reptiles. If you would like to participate, you can choose to edit this article, or visit the project page for more information.Amphibians and ReptilesWikipedia:WikiProject Amphibians and ReptilesTemplate:WikiProject Amphibians and Reptilesamphibian and reptile articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Afghanistan Low‑importance

	Afghanistan portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Afghanistan, a project to maintain and expand Afghanistan-related subjects on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.AfghanistanWikipedia:WikiProject AfghanistanTemplate:WikiProject AfghanistanAfghanistan articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

India Low‑importance

	India portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject India, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of India-related topics. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page.IndiaWikipedia:WikiProject IndiaTemplate:WikiProject IndiaIndia articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Bangladesh Low‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Bangladesh, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Bangladesh on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.BangladeshWikipedia:WikiProject BangladeshTemplate:WikiProject BangladeshBangladesh articles

Low

This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

WikiProject Bangladesh To-do list:

Add more images to Bangladesh Liberation War and related pages
Clean up Climate change in Bangladesh, it needs a lot of work
Clean up History of Bangladesh after independence, it needs NPOV
Improve Bangladesh back to FA as it was demoted (see discussion)
Improve Bengali language back to FA as it was demoted (see discussion)
Improve Bengalis and related pages
Take a look at the requested articles.
Make a MRT line 3 article.
Extend, add an infobox and a map of New Eskaton to New Eskaton.

Indonesia Low‑importance

	Indonesia portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Indonesia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Indonesia and Indonesia-related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IndonesiaWikipedia:WikiProject IndonesiaTemplate:WikiProject IndonesiaIndonesia articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Southeast Asia: Laos Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Southeast Asia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Southeast Asia-related subjects on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Southeast AsiaWikipedia:WikiProject Southeast AsiaTemplate:WikiProject Southeast AsiaSoutheast Asia articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by WikiProject Laos.

Vietnam Low‑importance

	Vietnam portal This article is part of WikiProject Vietnam, an attempt to create a comprehensive, neutral, and accurate representation of Vietnam on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page.VietnamWikipedia:WikiProject VietnamTemplate:WikiProject VietnamVietnam articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Nepal Low‑importance

	Nepal portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Nepal, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Nepal-related topics. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page and add your name to the member's list.NepalWikipedia:WikiProject NepalTemplate:WikiProject NepalNepal articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Tanaji Malsure used a monitor lizard to climb up the fort wall

Source:

http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:91V79RpwWkoJ:www.auromusic.org/online%2520books/An%2520_approach_to_indian_history-Kittu/10.htm+Ghorpad+Tanaji&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5

Atulsnischal 20:32, 3 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please provide a reliable source for this. A music website is not at all a reliable source for such historical anecdotes. Please provide a reference from a book or scholarly article that supports the claim. Thanks. --Ragib 20:39, 3 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

For the last time, a "cache" to a music site is NOT a reliable source. Provide a solid reference, otherwise the material will be removed. --Ragib 21:46, 3 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

References I could find

Wait for help from others

Atulsnischal 22:33, 3 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Let's look at why these references are NOT all useful. The first one is from a Music site!! The second one is from indbazaar.com. None of these sources are valid or even scholarly historical sources. Please look into reliable sources policy for citations. Any one can open a website and claim amazing things, and that doesn't automatically become true. This is an encyclopedia, and hence needs to have information verifiable from reliable sources. Unfortunately, none of the above count as such. Thank you. --Ragib 23:02, 3 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I noticed User:Ragib started editing the the bengal monitor page by distorting the historical anecdote of Maratha over Mugal victory first. Strange. Made it into a "persistant myth" from fact, now he wants a reference for each sentence otherwise he threatened to take the pagragraph out.

Atulsnischal 00:38, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Huh? Where does "maratha vs Mughal" even come into the picture!!! You add a tidbit to an article, when asked for references provide a google cache link to a music site, and now making even more misleading claims about what I stated!! Why don't you just provide a reference for the information, from a reliable source (which is not from a google cache of a music site). Verifiability is Wikipedia's basic principle, and instead of finding hidden motives, why don't you just dig up a usable reference? Waiting for that. (I frankly don't care whatever the myth is about, but it needs to be verifiable. Thanks. --Ragib 00:48, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have rolled back to an earlier version. This is more of an urban legend in that it is so casually spoken, replicated widely withno scientific/historic references either suggesting it or denying it. I have spent some time getting info and pictures on this page and can be sure that a monitor lizard cannot hold on to vertical or even horizontal surfaces in the manner suggested as to support a human. I converted the original statement to the current form as a statement of an urban legend and think that the onus of giving references is on those who suggest that it is true. A publication from a journal like Hamadryad or suchlike with information on an experiment with a live monitor and load bearing ability is all that is needed. Historical information can easily be spiced up and cannot be verified, the biological facts are easily verified. Shyamal 02:07, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Great. However, if there is indeed a myth, as suggested by the sentence in the intro, that should have a reference per WP:V. Thanks. --Ragib 02:13, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is the hard bit. Most herpetologists would laugh at the whole thing without a second thought. However the myth itself is so widely spread by mimetics that the references given by Atul could be considered suitable. It is so easy to throw around some of these folk beliefs, and I think a debunking statement that "there is no support" cannot require a citation. Shyamal 02:22, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Let me explain my point. I have no problem whatsoever with the myth. No problem of having a reference to a folk tradition either. No problem having a historic anecdote too. BUT, if this is a widespread folk belief, at least one book, or something else must have been written about this. I am not ready to take information off a music site and paste them into an encyclopedia. That's where my objection lies -- not the wording, not the myth, not mughals/maratha whatsoever. Per WP:V, we cannot allow all the junk floating in the Internet to seep into Wikipedia. I'm not saying this is one, but that's why the citation supporting the folk belief/myth is needed. And whoever adds information/fact into Wikipedia is required to provide supporting references from reliable sources. Thanks. --Ragib 02:27, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My books on Shivaji are still packed for a move, but this story is pretty well documented.

See, for example: The Bengal Monitor - Page 494 by Walter Auffenberg - Nature - 1994[1]

Thanks Nemo, for providing the reference. That's exactly what I was asking for. I've added the note to the page, referring to Auffenberg's book. --Ragib 02:47, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A really great reference. Thanks for the pointer. Shyamal 09:41, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is an incedent from a "very well" documented "History" not some spinned "LEGEND" or "MYTH", I have been taught this in the school history class

In time all concerned please get all reliable sources and give true historic fact its due credit, or just email the Chancellor of Universty of Pune closest to Sinhagad fort requesting him to write about it in detail with all sources and references or another willing professor. They can site detailed print references and books that are not yet available on the web.

The herders are said to train Monitors lizards for climbing locally, there must be more on that too, I have often seen Monitors sun themselves on verticle rock faces or old fort walls, and running up the verticle wall when disturbed. Being reptiles they have to bask and warm themselves in early morning sun to get their body heated. Monitors are good at climbing trees too.

Thanking you all in advance

Atulsnischal 04:49, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Kindly, see WP:NOR and WP:V. Thanks. --Ragib 05:00, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Common Indian Monitor Lizard and its rock climbing abilities

Hi Shyamal (and also all readers and editors of this page)

I have seen lot of Monitor Lizards in the field, like other cold blooded reptiles they have to bask in the sun in the morning to warm their blood to get active. For this you can see them clinging to verticle rock faces to get maximum exposure from the morning sun rays, have seen also on old fort walls and such. I have seen them run up old fort walls etc when disturbed, they also climb trees easily.

As for Tanaji and Sinhagad episode it is not a myth, it is "HISTORY", if you do find out which I am sure you will in due course please change words like LEGEND or MYTH etc. abouth the episode and the capabilities of Common Indian Monitor, also it was mentioned that cattle herders of the time in the area trained it for taking the rope up to help them climb, there must be some mention of this tradition too in the history pages.

In the long term I and sure you will be able to find credible sources

Thanks

Atulsnischal 15:40, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Here is great scientific explanation from cold blooded page on Wikipedia

Types of temperature control

Examples of temperature control include:

Snakes and lizards sunning themselves on rocks.

Hope this helps, thanks again Atulsnischal 15:54, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Atul. The photograph of the monitor on the article is an individual that I know well and yes, I am aware of the habits of basking and that of poikilothermy, neither of which are in contention. The use of monitor lizard for scaling walls is unverifiable and much closer to what is termed an urban legend. Yes, it has been said and written about Shivaji and there is even a title Ghorpade which is derived from the monitor. (We even have some naturalists with that name!) The grip of a monitor is however vastly over-rated and larger individuals are not very arboreal. There is no evolutionary advantage for a species like that to be able to cling on to a wall and support the weight of even an additional 30kg load (a boy) leave alone Shivaji's men or an elephant as I found on website supporting this theory. Shyamal 16:37, 4 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There is no evolutionary advantage for a species like that to be able to cling on to a wall ????

I am sure there must be MANY, they evolved to bask in sun and climb for food. In the field they are seen on vertical rocks and cliffs spread out to catch the early morning sun all the time and anyways it is not for us to "decide", for and on behalf of all mankind, we should rather just study and make new discoveries.

Tanaji using a Monitor to climb a vertical giant rock face on which the Sinhagad fort sits (I have trekked all around this Sinhagad fort wall, the back of the fort facing away from Pune City is just a giant boulder, no fort wall) and this incident is a part of Well documented HISTORY, we all just have to find correct reference and not make comments on how other scientists think, on our own without talking to any reputable scientist studying Monitors or their capabilities.

There are many skeptics plaguing the scientific fields, their fast held "Mental Blocks" do more disservice to Mankind then their contributions.

sincerely Atulsnischal 06:06, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Frankly, if what Shyamal wrote about the website's (unreliable source anyway) account of elephants hanging off the monitors, that is a sure sign of it being a "legend", rather than any believable piece of history. As for scientists, they HAVE done extensive studies of the monitor (for example, Auffenberg has a lot of books on monitors). The current scholarly references show that there is a "legend" about the monitor's being used, and that's all. It has been stated already in the article. It doesn't hurt to be a skeptic in this world of amazing and often unbelievable claims. An amazing claim requires an amazing proof, so goes the saying. --Ragib 07:31, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Atul, please don't misquote me. There is an evolutionary advantage to being able to climb trees and rocks, but not to take additional loads of the kind being suggested. In addition the musculature of reptilian limbs is not suited for the kind of gripping of walls as suggested. I can think of scenarios by which it may indeed be possible to climb a fort, but there are many other reptiles that can do it. As I know it, there are no modern examples of this application of Monitors in the fashion in which Monkeys are used for gathering coconuts. All the historic evidence merely states that it is said to have happened (in other words hearsay). For instance see

The chief of Mudhol belongs to the Bhonsle family of the Maratha caste or clan, descended, according to tradition, from a common ancestor with Sivaji the Great. This name, however, has been entirely superseded by the second designation of Ghorpade, which is said to have been acquired by one of the family who managed to scale a fort, previously deemed impregnable, by fastening a cord around the body of a ghorpad or iguana. All that is authentically known of the history of the family is that it held a high position at the court of Bijapur, from which it received the lands it still holds. The Mudhol chiefs were the most determined opponents of Sivaji during his early conquests ; but on the overthrow of the Muhammadan power they joined the Marathas, and accepted a military command from the Peshwa.
— Imperial Gazetteer of India v. 18, p 12

Science does indeed involve a good deal of cautious scepticism, whatever else you might term it. I encourage you to consider writing to scientists who may know more, and in the end, yes, it is about getting the best possible evidence regardless of the results. Wikipedia verifiability is about whether one can find the statements in a suitable primary reference. Scientific verifiability is about whether the possibility exists and whether it is repeatable or falsifiable. The statement as it stands is a good compromise between the two.Shyamal 06:55, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently the topic has been discussed in a paper in the Hamadryad. RAMAKRISHNA, N.1983. The unknown soldier. Hamadryad 8 (2):11-12. This is supposed to have information that all army soldiers were trained in the use of Ghorpads. It may have been followed by rejoinders, unfortunately I do not have access to the paper. This could be cited after sufficient study of this and other relevant literature. There is apparently another mention in GADDOW,H. 1901. The Cambridge Natural History. Volume 6: Amphibians and Reptiles. Macmillan, London. But if it was really of veracity, I think Auffenberg would have mentioned it or reviewed it in his comprehensive book on the species. A pity he is no more. Shyamal 08:15, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Current Review

This is a near complete article with many details on every facet of the lizard. The article has extensive reports about monitor behavior such as diurnal habits and predation. The subsections that the ecology and behavior sections lack are social behavior, since that communication is such a huge aspect of population biology and survival fitness. The article should expand more on the breeding section because it brings up interesting facts about male competition and females faking nests, which are interesting facts the reader would want to hear more about. Lastly, although habitat is touched on slightly in the general description on the top, it should be expanded upon and better organized by being in the range and habitat section of the page. N.sekar