Talk:Battle of Paštrik

What brigade of the KLA was active at the Battle of Paštrik?

The source (Hockenos, Paul (2003). Homeland Calling: Exile Patriotism & the Balkan Wars. Cornell University Press. pp. 238–239. ISBN 0-8014-4158-7.) is quite explicit that it's actually the 121st Brigade. @Adhurim Jakupi: is there a reason you reverted my edit? Here's the diff. Also, I tried to talk to you in your Talk page about similar behavior in the Battle of Košare article, and you haven't answered.--Aleksamil (talk) 00:38, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Two brigades from the operational zone Pashtrik fought during this battle; the 121st brigade 'Ismet Jashari' and the 123rd brigade, the 138 brigade 'Agim Ramadani' was not even a part of the same operational zone as these brigades. 138 was in operational zone Dukagjin. Durraz0 (talk) 10:39, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Is the Kumanovo Agreement a result of this particular battle?

I don't think this is corroborated by the sources provided in this article. @Adhurim Jakupi: do you have any sources to back that up? Also @Sadko: you're both close to breaking WP:3RR, as a more experienced user you should try to avoid this WP:EDITWAR. Adhurim doesn't seem to be responding to me, how do you propose we can deal with the edit war here (and the simultaneous one in the Battle of Košare article)? --Aleksamil (talk) 10:18, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

I do not plan to break 3RR. It's very little that we can do (but revert up to a limit) because there is zero communication from the other side. Do you happen to have more sources talking about the outcome of the battle? ty, Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 12:39, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

I don't. But what we're generally supposed to do is enter anything from the sources directly into the body of the article, whereas the infobox should serve solely as a summary. That said, I haven't seen any source indicate the Kumanovo Agreement being a result of the Battles of Košare and Paštrik, both patrolled by user Adhurim Jakupi. If this goes on, I suppose we should try dispute resolution--Aleksamil (talk) 15:35, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

That seems like a good idea Aleksa. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 16:42, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Hey, Aleksamil. In modern warfare, in general, *one* battle cannot dictate the outcome of a war and the treaty that ends it. It has to do with the complexity of modern warfare which nullify the effects of the "grand battle" strategy. So - although they're educated assumptions based on general bibliography- I don't think that a source will emerge that would put forward the idea that this particular, single battle affected the whole war so significantly that it dictated the terms of the treaty.--Maleschreiber (talk) 23:45, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

Agreed, Maleschreiber. I posted this section because of an ongoing edit war, unfortunately the reverting user didn't give his opinion on the issue. They're temporarily banned, as far as I know, but even if they decide to chime in, I agree there's unlikely to be a source that this particular battle resulted in the end of the entire war.--Aleksamil (talk) 00:05, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

And the same goes for Battle of Košare, where I have removed the agreement in the infobox. --T*U (talk) 11:08, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 June 2021

93.87.128.3 (talk) 20:10, 12 June 2021 (UTC)Tactical defeat of the KLA and NATO.

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Bsoyka (talk · contribs) 20:59, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

Norway, Albania

@Durraz0: Thank you for the article's expansion. I did some cleanup. Norway which has been added as a supporting force in the battle, seems to have assisted via the donation of a field hospital for wounded combatants and Albania provided artillery support. The average reader will not go into details and might think that they participated with active troops. I think that their involvement should be discussed via more specific terms on the infobox.--Maleschreiber (talk) 17:59, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Hello there! Yes I agree with the fact that we should mention the involvement of Norway in the page as well. The participation of Norway was not with active troops as you said but with a field hospital which was donated by the Norwegian Ministry of Foreign affairs (UD). however the doctors and nurses at the field hospital were Norwegian. Albanian army supported only with artillery and tanks, the tanks were only used to fire at VJ position over the border. I think we should mention both in the info box. perhaps something like "medical and artillery support" to clarify what the Albanian army and Norwegian states involvement was for the average reader who will just shim through the article. What do you think? Durraz0 (talk) 23:54, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Artillery Support - Albania and Medical Support - Norway will work well.--Maleschreiber (talk) 21:35, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

I agree. Durraz0 (talk) 03:18, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Update

I have contributed a few updates to the page as I could see some errors and conflicting information.

1. Casualties: Serbian casualties were updated to (25 dead, 126 injured). I translated (Google translate) the referenced article in question and the previous statistics refer to losses sustained in the entire region from an unspecified time frame. The losses from this specific battle are listed as (25 dead, 126 injured). In addition, according to the Serbian Wikipedia page, 500 KLA troops were wounded. This uses the same reference as the current English Wikipedia page which states that 200 were wounded. This needs clarification. 2. Strength: The KLA figures are derived from the Albanian version of this page with no references attached. Given that this battle was a major offensive, it is impossible that 150 soldiers were initially put into action. Forage (2001) states that General Wesley Clark puts figures at around 1,800-2000. In addition, Task Force Hawk and the Albanian 2nd army were added, as stated in Forage (2001). 3. The sentence:

"Albanian refugees from Gorozup, Milaj, Gjonaj and Planeja at the slopes of Mount Paštrik reported that they had been beaten, killed and forcefully driven out of their villages by Yugoslav army, police and paramilitaries..."

uses a reference from April 1999. A better reference post conflict (June, 1999) would be better.

4. The sentence:

"Only around 250 KLA insurgents actually saw combat during the operation..."

Incorrectly states that the referenced author in question has come to this conclusion. This is false as the entire narrative states:

"Most reports indicate that up to 4,000 insurgents were involved in the offensive, while some have as few as 250 insurgents engaging the Yugoslav army."

The author of this article highlights that this is a disputed fact and provides no final consensus in the article. Further clarification is needed.

In all, great article.ElderZamzam (talk) 07:44, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

In addition, a reference needs to be found for the strength of the Yugoslav army. It currently stands at [450 men (initial),1,000 men (May)]. This does not make any sense as didn't the battle commence in May? The (initial) infers that the battle started before May? I suggest this breakup of initial troops and follow up troops be removed until a viable source can be found.ElderZamzam (talk) 12:35, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

I removed all figures. Mondo.rs is WP:TABLOID and the source about KLA didn't specifically discuss battle of Pashtrik. Forage writes that Though NATO's battle damage assessment of these strikes has not been made public,60 Colonel Delic acknowledged suffering many casualties in the area. Delic commented that his troops had been under constant bombardment: 'Our positions resembled the surface of the moon from all the bombs we could not even count. Some 100 troops a day were incapacitated but new ones came to replace them.'61 In a speech on 12 August, 2000, General Lazarevic also conceded that 'we lost many heroes, who laid down their lives at Pastrik, Planeja, Cicavica, Gorozup, Kosare, Dulj, Reljan and other battlefields --Maleschreiber (talk) 20:08, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Good work Maleschreiber, the info box looks much better now. Thank you.ElderZamzam (talk) 22:26, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

If it falls under the category of Wikipedia:TABLOID, agree in regards to the removal of Mondo. However, the other source on Yugoslav military casualties that was also removed is an official Serbian MoD report on their site. EkoGraf (talk) 18:31, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

the 25 number comes from the 549th brigade only." U operaciji „Strela“ brigada je imala 25 poginulih i 126 ranjenih, a neprijatelj daleko više. U zoni odbrane brigade ukupno je poginulo 87 boraca, a 300 je ranjeno." this translates too "during operation 'Arrow', the brigade saw 25 dead and 126 wounded, the enemy fighters had far more. A total of 87 fighters died and 300 were wounded in the brigade's defense zone". Durraz0 (talk) 07:08, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

If it only refers to the casualties of the one brigade, and there was more than that one unit involved in the operation/battle, then we can add a note stating the casualties refer to that one brigade only. EkoGraf (talk) 16:35, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

I agree we should add a note. I speculate that it refers to the casualties of the unit by air air strikes and fighting with KLA. according to Forage the Yugoslav commander admitted they saw hundreds of casualties daily during the battle. Statements about the casualties seem to contradict. Durraz0 (talk) 16:53, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Durraz0:@EkoGraf: I think that we have to discuss how to compare and contrast different sources. The article is not an official publication of the Serbian MoD, but the comments of retired general Stojan Konjikovac in a book presentation. Konjikovac claims that the 549th Motorized Brigade and other Serbian units were 14,000 in total and that the 549th had 25 KIA and 126 wounded. In a Balkan context, the distinction between official reports and personal comments in a semi-official context is important because in the aftermath of the Yugoslav Wars, involved states did not publish official figures for killed/wounded soldiers and different factions in each military apparatus put forward different estimations. About the casualties of the 549th, Forage (2001) writes: Though NATO's battle damage assessment of these strikes has not been made public, Colonel Delic acknowledged suffering many casualties in the area. After President Milosevic awarded the 549th the National Hero Medal on 16 June 1999, 'for heroic achievements in the defence of [Yugoslav] territorial integrity and sovereignty', Delic commented that his troops had been under constant bombardment: 'Our positions resembled the surface of the moon from all the bombs we could not even count. Some 100 troops a day were incapacitated but new ones came to replace them.' --Maleschreiber (talk) 17:03, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

I read through the article, which was published by the Serbian MoD on their site to inform people about the book promotion and indeed does include quotes by Konjikovac, but also text to frame the story, so not everything in it is quotes by Konjikovac. Indeed yes the strength figure is quoted/cited to Konjikovac, I agree on that. However, the casualty figure is not a quote by Konjikovac. A "–" (dash) in the article indicates a quote, while where there is not a dash its part of the article published by the MoD. And there is no dash at the sentence regarding the casualty figure, which means its not a quote to Konjikovac. Also, please take into account, that the Forage source dates back to 2001 (17 years before this article), while the Delic quote itself is even more way back from 1999. Compared to this 2018 source, Forage/Delic is way outdated and it stands to reason that the situation is more clearer now. In these situations, we usually use more up-to-date sources/information on Wikipedia. Further, we have these reports by Serbia's public broadcaster RTS [1][2] and Serbia's daily newspaper Politika [3][4] from 2019 (so even newer sources) reporting 26 soldiers were killed in the battle/operation. So it stands that we should even possibly use these instead of the 2018 report since they are newer. One of these sources also includes an interview with Delic (who you mentioned) who is not contradicting the reported figure of 26 killed even when it is mentioned to him. In any case, we have multiple sources (per the newer ones for 26 dead) which show a widely accepted account on the number of dead per Serbia and there is no reason to exclude it. If we can find a source as per the Kosovo Albanians how many of the KLA's fighters were killed we should include it as well. EkoGraf (talk) 19:41, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Several more sources citing the widely accepted figures of 25 or 26 dead [5][6][7] during the battle, including one from last year (2020) by the regional public broadcaster in the Serbian province of Vojvodina. If you wish, we can attribute the figure to Serbia, so it would be clear to the reader it is coming from them. I also have no problem to include the Forage source in the main body of the article to cite the estimation on the casualties from 1999/2001, but to acknowledge that today it is widely reported to be 26 dead, including (among others) as per the same person who was quoted by Forage. EkoGraf (talk) 19:55, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

The most recent addition to this article stating that 16 KLA troops were killed was removed. The reason being is that the article in question quotes a KLA regional commander immediately after the war. The same commander states that 180 Yugoslav troops were killed, which has proven to be inaccurate. The "Unknown" status is most appropriate, given the varying figures posted. The Albanian language page of this article lists (73) KLA troops killed, the Serbian (1,400), French (71), Croatian (Unknown).ElderZamzam (talk) 23:54, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

The Albanian, Croatian and French WP articles all have no sources for their casualties. the Serbian WP article uses a Serbian source which is Serbian POV. I never put the number of Yugoslav dead as 180, just as we are using the claims of Yugoslavia/Serbia for their own casualties (25-26) we should use the claims of the KLA for their own casualties. Durraz0 (talk) 09:52, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

I guess someone REALLY likes that number 16 and didn't take too kindly to your removal of it, so the ridiculous claim is now back in the article. 178.221.64.252 (talk) 14:51, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Sylejmani interview

@ElderZamzam: can you quote where in the interview of Agim Sylejmani it is claimed that the Albanian army was one of the combatants in the battle of Pashtrik? An interview is not a good source for WP:EXTRAORDINARY claims, but before I remove it - as a native speaker of Albanian - I want to know from which part of the interview you inferred the content of your edit.--Maleschreiber (talk) 19:35, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

The claim isn't WP:EXTRAORDINARY, the page prior to my addition discussed the involvement of the Albanian army by multiple sources. My addition is a clarification of minute details of who exactly in the Albanian army was involved. If I was able to read the interview and make an inference from it, you being a native speaker of the Albanian language would also have reached the same inference. Did you read the entire text, or did you dismiss it? For clarification, during the interview, Sulejmani is asked Dihet mirëfilli se pjesa veriore e Shqipërisë, gjegjësisht zona kufitare ku ishin ngritur qendrat stërvitore të UҪK-së dhe bëheshin përgatitjet për frontin e Koshares dhe të Pashtrikut në kuadër të operacionit “Shigjeta”, ishte nën përgjegjësinë ushtarake të Divizionit të Kukësit në krye me Gjeneral Kudusi Lama. A mund të na thoni konkretisht, cili ishte roli i Gjeneral Kudusi Lamës me Divizionin e Kukësit, në përgatitjen logjistike për Operacionin “Shigjeta”?. To which he responds Divizioni i Kukësit dhe gjeneral Kudusi Lama ishin bartësit kryesor të luftës që zhvillohej në gjithë atë front të gjerë, aq sa ishte edhe vija kufitare Shqipëri-Kosovë. Ne kishim djem e vajza të gatshëm të jepnin edhe jetën e tyre për lirinë e Kosovës, por pa Divizionin e Kukësit, e sidomos të vetë gjeneral Kudusi Lama dhe gjithë stafit të tij ushtarak, as që mund të imagjinohet lufta e UÇK-së në kufi me Kosovën, ku ishin të përqëndruara njësitë elite artilerike e tankiste të ushtrisë serbe të shoqëruara nga njësitë paramilitare serbe dhe mercenare ruse. Kundër këtyre forcave të mëdha në numër dhe të paisura me armët më moderne të kohës nuk mjaftonte vetëm vullneti për të luftuar, por duheshin edhe mjetet përkatëse për të përballuar armikun shumëfish më të madh në numër dhe të paisur. The fact that you have already planned to remove the content without a valid discussion shows that you have no interest in engaging in any sort of constructive dialogue to advance this page. ElderZamzam (talk) 22:30, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

It will be removed because nowhere does it claim or imply that the Albanian army was a combatant in the Battle of Pashtrik or that Kudusi Lama was a commander in any way, shape or manner in that battle. I didn't remove it beforehand in order to give you a chance to remove it yourself.--Maleschreiber (talk) 00:27, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 July 2024

I've got multiple sources on the Albanian Casaulties and the Result, i want to change some mistakes. 46.161.116.17 (talk) 19:37, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. RudolfRed (talk) 02:41, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

15 or 16 dead?

There are two citations for the claim that 16 KLA fighters died, but only one of them (a contemporary article from The Guardian) actually states 16 died. The other, which is from a website run by veterans from the KLA's 128th Brigade, states that 15 died and provides a photo of a memorial with 15 names on it.

This seems to me like an open-and-shut case, but since this page has been the target of edit war after edit war, I thought it'd be best to consult y'all. Better to be incredibly cautious than start a day-long argument with a Balkan stranger. ZionniThePeruser (talk) 02:20, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Since nobody has replied in more than a month (eons in Wikipedia time), I'll just WP:BOLDLY do what I initially thought should be done. ZionniThePeruser (talk) 20:02, 17 October 2024 (UTC)