User talk:ElderZamzam

A belated welcome!

Here's wishing you a belated welcome to Wikipedia, ElderZamzam! I see that you've already been around a while and wanted to thank you for your contributions. Though you seem to have been successful in finding your way around, you may still benefit from following some of the links below, which help editors get the most out of Wikipedia:

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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Again, welcome! Aasim (talk) 18:20, 17 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Two Questions

Hi there.

First of all, I wanted to ask if you could send me the passages of text within the citations for your edits on Botushë? I'd be very interested to read them after translating them myself, as none in the village have ever recounted the presence of Serbs in general, even in folk legends. The investment from Stefan Decanski himself is also pretty intriguing.

Also, in reference to your edit https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Erenik&oldid=1049631050 and the description that followed, I want to clarify; in Albanian - the official language in Kosovo that is used by the overwhelming majority of the population - these are the terms used not only by the people, but by the government as well. So yes, they are indeed the official names. However, you are right in using the official, neutral English term as this is English Wikipedia after all. Botushali (talk) 13:07, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@ElderZamzam: I have just noticed your edit on Rugova Canyon and the comment you left there, too. You changed 'Bjeshket e Nemuna' (which is the official name in Kosovo, which is where the Rugova Canyon is located) to 'Prokletije'. That is not the official name in Kosovo, nor is it the official name in English. I have changed it to 'Accursed Mountains' as, once again, this is an English-language wiki. Furthermore, at the time where "Peja Bistrica" was titled 'Peja's Lumbardh', the moves of all "Bistrica" articles in Western Kosovo to the official name of 'Lumbardh' remained unchallenged for months and were only reverted recently after disputes with a single admin on unrelated article moves. Botushali (talk) 13:07, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hello @Botushali:, I thank you for your work so far and for creating this page. Based off the photos it looks to be a wonderful village worth visiting. On page 145 of Kalezic (2002), it is mentioned that an Orthodox Church was built and consecrated in 1330 with the help of Stefan Decanski Батуша, У горњем току Рибника, око 15км северо зазападно од Ђаковице, налази се Српско село Батуша, које је Краљ Стефан Дећански (1321-1331) поклоно храмом Св. Николе (1330). According to page 188 of Novak (1954), the ethnicity of the population of Botushë isn't mentioned and based on the consecration of a church, the locals are assumed to be of the Christian Orthodox faith Село Батуша и црква у њој дата је повељом манастиру Дечанима са људима који су у то време били на cелу...У Батуши је било 7 кућа...Oво село је одузето манастиру, након што су Турци заузели ове крајеве. Својом повељом кнегиња Милица га је вратила Дечанима и остатку имовине. However, at the time ones ethnicity was tied to a region and not a nationalist label as seen today. With regards to the 1850s comment, page 109 of Ivic (1988) mentions that there were 8 Serbian homes out of an unknown total Прогона православни хришћанцког дела Срба, чињенично је забележено, и И. Јастребов који је налазио, за време око Кримског рата и пре тога да су села Пећке и Ђаковичке каже… Батуша (8 кућа). I have a keen interest in folk legends. If you have any from the Botushë village, please add them as they would be a gem and welcomed addition. In regards to Kosovo village/city toponyms, it is a heated issue and I have seen a number of Wikipedia contributors drawn into protracted debates. Some have even been banned after heated nationalistic debates and it is a shame to see because good Wikipedia editors are lost over minor issues. Hence, I have continued to edit accordingly by restricting the use of both Serbian and Albanian names with diacritics to more neutral anglicized names until sometime where a talk page discussion can come to a ruling. With regards to the Rugova Canyon, for some reason I could not manually edit it and could only "undo" the previous edit. Thank you for making those changes.ElderZamzam (talk) 23:48, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@ElderZamzam: It's good to see you don't have nationalist intentions in regards to the Rugova Canyon edit - any quality edits or improvements on my contributions is more than welcome. Neutral toponyms in the English language are always preferred when available, I agree with you - in the absence of English toponyms for places in Kosovo, I would argue the Albanian version would take preference due to it's use by the local government. I now see the meaning behind the early sources; followers of Serbian Orthodox religion, not necessarily ethnic Serbs, which would make sense due to the conversion events in the region during that time period. I still have my doubts in regards to the last source (the estimation of a Russian consul), but I'll counter that once I have these two books on the village available. I have two books on Botushë but I do not currently have them in my home. As soon as I obtain it, there will be a lot of information I will be adding in regards to history, inhabitants, events, folk legends etc. from sourced material. Glad we have come to an understanding, and thanks for the sources! Regards. Botushali (talk) 02:14, 14 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

October 2021

Please do not remove content or templates from pages on Wikipedia, as you did to Prilep, Kosovo, without giving a valid reason for the removal in the edit summary. Your content removal does not appear to be constructive and has been reverted. If you only meant to make a test edit, please use your sandbox for that. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 22:40, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This is a standard message to notify contributors about an administrative ruling in effect. It does not imply that there are any issues with your contributions to date.

You have shown interest in the Balkans or Eastern Europe. Due to past disruption in this topic area, a more stringent set of rules called discretionary sanctions is in effect. Any administrator may impose sanctions on editors who do not strictly follow Wikipedia's policies, or the page-specific restrictions, when making edits related to the topic.

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Hello Drmies, thank you for your message. Could you please clarify in what way my edit on the Prilep page was disruptive so that I can avoid it in the future? I remove content and provided an edit summary stating Kosovo War sources are two Youtube videos with no commentary (unreliable). The death toll does not match the memorial list. How can the same people be killed twice, once as militants and once as civilians? It does not make sense. I will seek clarification from the original author to rectify the content.ElderZamzam (talk) 22:48, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. There are two more sources in the content you removed. With memorial list? Is that in the source? So then there is a source which you accept, but the text doesn't match it? On a larger level, it seems like you are removing information that could be considered negative to Serbian supporters, based on sketchy arguments, and of course you also removed the paragraph which did not have those two sources you decried. Drmies (talk) 23:42, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the clarification, I accept that I am guilty of overkill and will be mindful in future in addition to ensuring my edits are neutral on Balkan related topics. Correct, the victim/memorial list comes from a kind of online memorial book with the original author stating that 12 members of the Yugoslav forces and 4 Albanian militants were killed in battle, while 4 civilians were killed of which 3 were Albanian and 1 was Egyptian following the end of the battle. The memorial book in fact states that 9 combatants were killed with 1 civilian death from June to November 1998 in the village of Prilep, Kosovo.^[1] The list only identifies ethnicity and does not list who a deceased was fighting for. All of the dead could in fact have been serving in the Yugoslav army/police and such a list could have derived from Yugoslav government records, with KLA figures being published elsewhere. The original author has tried to construct a narrative which is commendable of them, however it is bordering on WP:OR as the original author is making inferences based on a few sources which in turn, has resulted in some confusing text. Any narrative on atrocities are probably best referenced by ICTY court documentation. ElderZamzam (talk) 00:34, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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2021 Waukesha Christmas parade attack

Please see WP:BLPCRIME. We cannot say that he did this "deliberately" until those charges are adjudicated by a court of law. TheTechnician27 (Talk page) 23:07, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have sent you a note about a page you started

Hello, ElderZamzam

Thank you for creating Bruneian nationality law.

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More references are needed for the article, but I think this can still pass review for now. More references that are not primary sources are needed.

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Doug Weller talk 14:11, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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July 2023

Hello, I'm TylerBurden. I noticed that you removed topically-relevant content from Serbia. However, Wikipedia is not censored. Please do not remove or censor information that directly relates to the subject of the article. If the content in question involves images, you have the option to configure Wikipedia to hide images that you may find offensive. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you may leave a message on my talk page. Thank you. TylerBurden (talk) 11:14, 10 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hello @TylerBurden. I assume you are referring to the removal of the picture of Slobodan Milosevic, added one day ago with the caption His leadership became associated with numerous human tragedies and acts of violence during the breakup of Yugoslavia. The caption does not relate to the text in any manner as "numerous human tragedies and acts of violence" are not discussed in the text in any manner. The caption also states that Slobodan Milosevic was a prominent political figure in the former Yugoslavia, this too is incorrect as I am not sure how Slobodan Milosevic takes more prominence over Josip Broz Tito. I am not offended by the image, the issue I have is that it adds zero value to the page, with the image caption bordering on POV pushing. Unfortunately, the contributor who added the photo didn't bother to create a talk page discussion and thus, a healthy discussion could not have taken place. ElderZamzam (talk) 12:11, 10 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that justifies removing the image entirely, since Milošević is discussed extensively in the section it accompanies. However you are correct that the caption should reflect the article or at least be sourced, so perhaps consider altering the caption instead of removing the image entirely. You also have the ability to start a talk page discussion if needed, it would be better if you both use the talk page instead of edit warring back and forth. TylerBurden (talk) 10:08, 11 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. Noted. ElderZamzam (talk) 12:40, 11 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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Hello

On the demographic history of Kosovo for the 17th century why did you remove the account of Evliya Celebi ?

"In 1660 Çelebi went to Kosovo and referred to the central part of the region as Arnavud (آرناوود) and noted that in Vushtrri its inhabitants were speakers of Albanian or Turkish and few spoke Bosnian. The highlands around the Tetovo, Peja and Prizren areas Çelebi considered as being the "mountains of Arnavudluk". Çelebi referred to the "mountains of Peja" as being in Arnavudluk (آرناوودلق) and considered the Ibar river that converged in Mitrovica as forming Kosovo's border with Bosnia. He viewed the "Kılab" or Llapi river as having its source in Arnavudluk (Albania) and by extension the Sitnica as being part of that river. Çelebi also included the central mountains of Kosovo within Arnavudluk."

So he included Western and Central Kosovo and the Llapi river in north-east Kosovo as Albania in the 1660's. Also the towns were mainly Albanian as noted by Malcolm and other sources of that time such as Prishtina, Prizren, Peja, (Gjakova most probably too), Vushtrri too. (You also had Albanians in the town of Novo Brdo, Janjeva etc.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evliya_%C3%87elebi , the part about Western Kosovo being Albanian speaking in the 17th century that has been quoted has been written wrong, it's about Catholic minorities in Kosovo and that the Catholics in Western Kosovo spoke Albanian, the ones in most of Eastern Kosovo spoke Serbo-Croat , it's about Catholics whom at that time were a minority from Catholic sources, not a demographic discription as a whole if you actually look at the book.

Also why did you remove the 20,000 Albanians and the 5,000 Muslim Albanians that revolted . The quote from Jagodic is a unreliable source and out of context, he is the same one who claims there was a forcible settlement of Albanians in the Toplica (we also know there were movements there in general) but if you actually look at registers and placenames it was inhabited by Albanians from before. Also many Slavs moved into the Nish and Kosovo area after 1690 too, they came from areas like Montenegro , Serbia etc.

Also where is the evidence the 30k-40k Serb refugees came from Kosovo ? Nowhere is there any mention of all the refugees coming from there, in fact most of the refugees listed came from Serbia, Montenegro etc, Pandemics and killings by Ottoman-Tatar troops took peoples lives too or people returned . The towns which had mainly an Albanian population lost considerable part of their population also. TheCreatorOne (talk) 12:46, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For example here he describes the Llapi river in North-East Kosovo as having it's source in Albania:

"Through this part of the plain flows the Llap river, which has its source in Albania, (8) joins the ..... river at the foot of the aforementioned fortress of Mitrovica, and then joins the Morava river, which flows into the Danube."

Taken from the book translated by Robert Elsie: http://www.albanianhistory.net/1660_Chelebi/index.html

I just want to write what the information of that time says,as far as I'm concerned nothing supports some of the things claimed from Serb sources. Seems like it's a bunch of invented history to fit Serbian nationalistic views. TheCreatorOne (talk) 12:56, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello @TheCreatorOne, thank you for reaching out and for your apology. The content you want to add are already covered in the article under (17th–18th centuries) and already utilizes Noel Malcolm as primarily a sole reference. Adding more content related to Malcolm will distort the neutrality of the article even more as Malcolm has received criticism for being biased in his writing. Celebi noted the mountains to be of "Arnavuduluk", however we can't make an assumption about the population group because Celebi didn't make a connection. Making a connection between the two goes against WP:OR. You are very passionate about this topic which is good, however you have to be cautious when balancing different viewpoints from multiple sources. If one source goes against longstanding views, then it falls under WP:FRINGE. It doesn't mean the viewpoint can be excluded, however if it is included, it must be written to show that it goes against mainstream views. It is also important not to let your personal views dictate your actions because we have to abide by WP:NPOV. For every editor contributing to the Balkan pages, they are dealing with their own issues of biases as the Balkan topics are so heated and divided. Before you contribute again, such as your recent edits on the Niš page, have a read of the talk page because 9 times out of 10, a discussion would have already occurred on the topic you may want to introduce to the page. This will save you being reverted for the work you added, which can be frustrating, especially if you put a lot of time and effort into it. ElderZamzam (talk) 23:35, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dude

Dude you are telling a completely false version of Kosovos history , I don't know how on earth someone like you is allowed to be an admin here, or any of these other Serbs for that matter and call actual historical evidence as nationalistic nonsense, what you are spreading is nationalistic nonsense, dude. how can you even live with yourself ? Dude, the books I quoted are historian and from Austrian military archives and from Ottoman archives that , there is nothing that supports your version of history, it is nothing but an invented fairytale ... you literally removed the sources that say the people that revolted were Albanians, you removed the sources of various travellers that included it as part of Albania etc, you even removed about the second battle of Kosovo 1448 , because you are pathetic, you should be banned from here you nut job .... I have never in my life seen such false history of Kosovo. You low life pathetic losers. It is well known Kosovo didn't get an Albanian majority until mid 19th century when Albanians were expelled from Sanjak of Nish, not 18th century. You pathetic low life scum. The books of Malcolm and Anscombe that have been used is not even what they say. History is not on your side when it comes to Kosovo you degenerate scums, once you start telling the true history of this place you obviously see this is not your land. You remove anything that is a threat to your agenda despite it based on factual and historical evidence yet spread your nationalistic nonsense fairytales about a great migration of Serbs, something that literally has no evidence as also pointed out by both Anscombe and Malcolm. TheCreatorOne (talk) 17:22, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"This essay examines both the historical facts concerning the migration of Serbs from Kosovo in 1690, and the claims made about that migration by subsequent historians—claims which, at their most extreme, suggested that hundreds of thousands of Serbs departed, with huge effects on the ethnic composition of the region. This essay demonstrates that there was no large-scale organized exodus of Serbs under the Serbian Orthodox Patriarch, Arsenije Crnojević: his departure from Kosovo in early 1690 was extremely hasty, and he had not, in any case, been leading organized resistance to the Ottomans. A large number of Serbs did move with the Patriarch to Hungarian territory later in that year; he himself gave their numbers as 30,000 or 40,000. But they had gathered, from many areas, in the Belgrade region, and only a small proportion were from Kosovo itself. One unsupported claim was made many years later, by a Serbian monk, that the Patriarch had brought 37,000 families to Hungary; and in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries many Serb writers interpreted that figure maximally, while also assuming that all those people had come from Kosovo. This essay analyses the ideological influences (operating primarily on Serbs within the Habsburg territories in the nineteenth century) that helped to shape that interpretation; it also criticizes excessive claims made by modern Albanian and Turkish historians."

https://academic.oup.com/book/37426/chapter-abstract/331513844?redirectedFrom=fulltext

THERE IS NO EVIDeNCE as explained by the author!!!!

Even Anscombe says there is no evidence!!!!

There is your great migration fairytale , an invented nationalistic fairytale in the 19th-20th century that basically invented that all the refugees came from Kosovo, not only this but even 40,000 families , just like they invented they were invited to Hungary.

Kosova was Albanian and the people that revolted were Albanians in fact, both from Northern Albania and Kosovo. They claim there was a mass exodus of Serbs in areas that had an Albanian majority, something impossible. This conflict has nothing to do with Muslims vs Christians, you are telling some false version of history, Albanians belong to both religions and have no problem with each other, these are nothing but invented lies. TheCreatorOne (talk) 17:28, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reported

You should be reported and definitely removed from the moderator position. What you and other members here are spreading is false history of course. And nationalistic nonsense that is not supported by any historical sources. It is ironic I was reverted when what I wrote in the Kosovo section is actually based on historical sources. There is no evidenc of any great migration , it is a fairytale as pointed out by Malcolm. Also if we look at the demographic situation of Kosovo prior to that right before these events, Orthodox Serbs were a minority in Western-Central Kosovo , in the towns and the Llapi area. This is also based on sources from that time. Many Serbs also moved into Kosovo in the 18th century and onwards. TheCreatorOne (talk) 14:05, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Hello, ElderZamzam. Thank you for your work on Pančevo executions. SunDawn, while examining this page as a part of our page curation process, had the following comments:

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^ "Kosovo Memory Book".

[1] "Kosovo Memory Book".

[1]