Talk:Battle of Goychay

Battle of Goychay has been listed as one of the Warfare good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: December 30, 2019. (Reviewed version).

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Battle of Goychay article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Battle of Goychay was nominated as a Warfare good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (August 28, 2019). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated.

Military history: World War I

This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles

Associated task forces:
/
	World War I task force

Azerbaijan Low‑importance

	Azerbaijan portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Azerbaijan, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Azerbaijan-related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.AzerbaijanWikipedia:WikiProject AzerbaijanTemplate:WikiProject AzerbaijanAzerbaijan articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Georgia (country) Low‑importance

	Georgia (country) portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Georgia (country), a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Georgia and Georgians on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Georgia (country)Wikipedia:WikiProject Georgia (country)Template:WikiProject Georgia (country)Georgia (country) articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Armenia Low‑importance

	Battle of Goychay is within the scope of WikiProject Armenia, an attempt to improve and better organize information in articles related or pertaining to Armenia and Armenians. If you would like to contribute or collaborate, you could edit the article attached to this page or visit the project page for further information.ArmeniaWikipedia:WikiProject ArmeniaTemplate:WikiProject ArmeniaArmenian articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Soviet Union Low‑importance

	Soviet Union portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Soviet Union, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR) on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Soviet UnionWikipedia:WikiProject Soviet UnionTemplate:WikiProject Soviet UnionSoviet Union articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Caucasia (inactive)

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Caucasia, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.CaucasiaWikipedia:WikiProject CaucasiaTemplate:WikiProject CaucasiaCaucasia articles

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Battle of Goychay/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Kges1901 (talk · contribs) 00:15, 26 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Nice to see an article from an under-represented area, but as currently written, this article has major issues that would prevent it from being GA:

Suggest getting a copy edit from WP:GOCE as there are many partial sentences, tense errors, run-ons, etc. giving the impression of a translation by a non-native speaker. The prose in this article is currently not up to GA standards.
Almost all of the sources are from the Azeri or Turkish perspective, raising questions of whether this article is WP:NPOV. There are only three Russian and English sources, leading to the conclusion that only the Azeri/Turkish perspective is being represented here.
Inconsistent use of sfns
Significant number of duplicate links - terms only need to be linked once in the lead and once in the body
The original English version of Muratov and Allen should be cited, not the Russian translation
Ganin's entry on Bicherakovy does not support the statements it is cited for "I refused the command of the army of deserters and cowards", he wrote to his brother, Georgi Bicherakhov. In total, over the period of the fighting, according to Bicherakhov himself, his unit lost more than 100 soldiers. and these sentences are a direct translation of text from the Russian Wikipedia article on Lazar Bicherakov
Rüştü's memoirs are not WP:VERIFIABLE in the way that the citation is currently formatted Kges1901 (talk) 00:15, 26 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

Is it well written?
A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct:

B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:
Is it verifiable with no original research?
A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:

B. All in-line citations are from reliable sources, including those for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines:

C. It contains no original research:

D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:
Is it broad in its coverage?
A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:

B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):
Is it neutral?
It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:
Is it stable?
It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:
Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?
A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:

B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:
Overall:
Pass or Fail:

Comments

Well, @Kges1901:, thank you for reviewing this article!

Yes, I'm non-native speaker, also this is the first article that I've ever nominated for GA on English Wikipedia. And process is largely different from its Azerbaijani counterpart. The article was translated from Azerbaijani Wikipedia with some additions to it. I submitted a request for getting a copy-edit here.
Unfortunately, this topic has been poorly covered and there are no online sources for it (apart from some mentions from pro-Azerbaijani or state-sponsored sites). I might have to check the library for Azerbaijani and Russian sources, and even get PDFs of the sources to prove their validity.
Y I think I fixed the sfn issue.
Y Removed the duplicate links.
Y added the original 1953 publication in English + made it an sfn.
Y added a link that mentions the statement from a Russian-language Armenian website.
Y I added more information on Rüştü's book. Fortunately, someone added a link to the book itself two days ago. I also added links to the other sources. --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 06:06, 26 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the responses and attempts to address the source disparity. As the article is a long way from meeting criterion 1 (being well written), however, I am failing this nomination without prejudice against a renomination following the GOCE copyedit, as the main significant issue with the article is criterion 1. Kges1901 (talk) 00:06, 28 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Copyedit comments

Hi @Solavirum:, here are some comments:

'The Red Army forces, which began to gather at Kazi-Magomed Station, set off on 10 June to go to Ganja, then capital of Azerbaijan Democratic Republic. There was a small military unit consisting of Georgians and Azerbaijanis against the Red Army. Georgian-born Levan Makalov was the commander of this group.[2] The coalition forced seized the Syghyr Station on 10 June. During this time, Shaumian learned that the Ottoman military forces had not yet reached Ganja. Armenian residents of Ganja were clashing with the Ottoman–Azerbaijani troops. He wanted to take advantage of this situation, which was in favor of the Baku Commissioner.[3] The seizure of the Syghyr Station was highly encouraging to Shaumian. On a telegram he sent to Vladimir Lenin, he wrote:'

needs to be edited so that aren't so many short, stopping sentences. I would do this, but I don't have the sources so I thought it best that you do it. More comments soon. Willbb234^Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 12:05, 12 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hello there @Willbb234:, I tried to have less sentences and more run-on sentences as much as possible. Hope it is okay enough. Good luck! --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 14:30, 12 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Solavirum: 'during the beginning of the battle, number of Turkish military forces that have reached Azerbaijan was less than 5 thousand. While number of Red Army forces had surpassed 30 thousand with the arrival of Armenian groups'. I'm guessing this has been poorly translated, but my guess is that it should read 'during the beginning of the battle, the number of Turkish military forces that had reached Azerbaijan was less than five thousand. Meanwhile, the number of Red Army forces had surpassed thirty thousand with the arrival of Armenian groups' Comments:

'Armenian groups' to 'Armenian soldiers' or something like that?
The Red Army would no longer be the Red Army if the Armenians were in there. Instead, does it mean the coalition forces?
It might be worth removing the quote as it does cause a little trouble, but if you do want to keep it, please try and translate it well, as we need to accurately mirror what the expert was saying. Regards, Willbb234^Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 15:50, 12 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I also have concerns with 'The number of Azerbaijani soldiers who fought in the battle is unknown, but it had to be less than 5,000, as the first military institution, the Azerbaijani Special Corps (ASC), led by Ali-Agha Shiklinski which was established on 26 June, consisted of less than 5,000 men, although their possible involvement is unclear.' Could you translate the source in the area that says this and tell me what it says, so that I can write up something easier to understand. I've tried my best but, without the source, it is still confusing. Willbb234^Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 15:56, 12 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This is a little confusing 'under the overall supervision of the Grigory Korganov. However, Bicherakhov did not fully obey Grigory Petrov's orders' so, are these two people supposed to be different, or are they the same person, just a mistake? Willbb234^Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 16:07, 12 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

'The members of the army in Ganja came to the conclusion that there was no physical barrier between them and the railway, and that this situation would pose a great threat to the capital' clarification needed. what railway are we talking about? What would pose a threat to the capital? Willbb234^Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 16:10, 12 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there Twofingered Typist. I have copyediting this article but was struggling, especially in the Comparison of Forces and First assault sections. Please could take a look and see what you can do. I was asking as you are a lot more experienced than I am, and I really am struggling with some of the text. Regards, Willbb234^Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 16:15, 12 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Willbb234:.

In the original text, it says "erməni dəstələri" which is translated as Armenian groups, but "Armenian detachments" can also be used.
The translation of Görüryılmaz's work to Azerbaijani states: "Savaşın başladığı dövrdə Azərbaycana çatan türk hərbi qüvvələrinin sayı beş min belə deyildi. Qızıl Ordu qüvvələrinin sayı isə erməni dəstələrin qatılması ilə 30 mini aşmışdı". No mention of a coalition there, but technically speaking, yes it was a coalition of two separate groups.
Now that part is bit interesting. The only fact I could find about the Azerbaijani forces is that there were less than 5 thousand of soldiers fighting for Azerbaijan. In "Birinci Dünya hərbində Türk hərbi, Qafqaz cəbhəsi, III ordu hərəkatı" it mentions Ali-Agha's involvement in the battle, and during that time, he did led an army that had 5.000 members.[1]
That one is from Paul Muratoff's book. I couldn't access the original, so I had to translate a text from this article. I think I made a mistake there. In reality, G. Petrov did not obey Bicherakhov's orders, not the opposite.
I believe that the original text refers to a railway that stretches from Baku to West, as shown here. There is this text from Rail transport in Azerbaijan: "The first long-distance railway line was opened in 1883, which led from Baku to Tbilisi in Georgia". Only railway line that goes from Baku to Tbilisi passes from Ganja. And in here it mentions a railway line that compassed Baku, Ganja and Tbilisi.

I hope my comments were helpful enough. --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 23:16, 13 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hey @Twofingered Typist:! Thank you for working on the article. But I'd like to mention some stuff.

In the "At the time of the attack, the reserve forces..." part you have added the {{whose?}} template. The text refers to the Ottoman-Azerbaijani coalition forces. So, it would be: "At the time of the attack, the Ottoman-Azerbaijani reserve forces..."
In the quote "Many of our soldiers fighting in this fierce warm died of dehydration. Since you're not joining the army, at least you have to help by carrying food and water for these soldiers", you have changed warm to war, which is wrong. The original quote is like this: "Bu şiddətli istidə savaşan əsgərlərimizdən bir çoxu susuzluqdan ölmüşdür. Madam ki, könüllü olaraq orduya qatılmırsınız, heç olmazsa bu əsgərə yemək və su daşıyaraq yardım etməniz lazımdır". The word we are talking about is "istidə", which can be translated as "in warmth" or "in heat".

Good luck! --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 10:15, 15 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hello: I had a great deal of difficulty deciphering the meaning in some sentences. Hence the "misunderstandings". I have made the corrections as you have suggested. I'll point out that you can make these changes, or any others where I've erred, yourself. Twofingered Typist (talk) 11:51, 15 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Battle of Goychay/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: CPA-5 (talk · contribs) 10:51, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Claim my seat here. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 10:51, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The Battle of Goychay (Azerbaijani: Göyçay döyüşü, Russian: Геокчайский бой, Turkish: Göyçay/Gökçay Savaşı) or Raid on Goychay (Azerbaijani: Göyçay basqını, Turkish: Göyçay/Gökçay Baskını) Unlink both Russian and Turkish languages.
operation to prevent the Ottoman army from recovering in Ganja --> "operation to prevent the Ottoman Army from recovering in Ganja" Pipe Ottoman Army to the Ottoman Army (1861–1922).
Red Army is overlinked.
but Mustafa Görüryılmaz notes that in reality Is there a link for Mustafa Görüryılmaz?
fight against the Ottoman-Azerbaijani coalition forces Unlink Azerbaijani.
led by Osman Bey, was sent to the Garamaryam front Link of Osman Bey?
Islamic Army of the Caucasus in Myusyuslyu, Nazım Bey Link Nazım Bey?
the 28th Battalion was caught in a Soviet ambush having failed to take timely measures --> "the 28th Battalion were caught in a Soviet ambush having failed to take timely measures"
The 29th Battalion, which was attacked from both sides, was able to move to the village of Veysalli after a very bloody fight --> "The 29th Battalion, were attacked from both sides, were able to move to the village of Veysalli after a very bloody fight"
neither side was able to defeat the other in the hot summer weather --> "neither side were able to defeat the other in the hot summer weather"
the double envelopment maneuver used by the Ottoman army in such battles was not applied --> "the double envelopment manoeuvre used by the Ottoman Army in such battles were not applied"
According to reports, Bolshevik Red Army forces had burned down American burned.
were able to recruit Armenians and Russians from surrounding Unlink Russians because of common term.
the Islamic army of the Caucasus after its formation --> "the Islamic Army of the Caucasus after their formation"
disappointment to the public in a speech given in the town center American center.
the 5th Caucasus Infantry Division was preparing for its first combined operation in Azerbaijan --> "the 5th Caucasus Infantry Division were preparing for their first combined operation in Azerbaijan" and unlink Azerbaijan.
while the 2nd Cavalry Regiment was going to attack the Bolsheviks --> "while the 2nd Cavalry Regiment were going to attack the Bolsheviks"
of about a thousand troops, two cannons and two machine guns American plural form of cannon.
but were fully defeated by 7:00 AM --> "but were fully defeated by 7:00 am"
The 9th Caucasian Regiment, which was stationed in Poylu --> "The 9th Caucasian Regiment, were stationed in Poylu"
which consisted of less than 10 thousand soldiers --> "which consisted of less than ten thousand soldiers" in the note.
The coalition force seized the Syghyr Station on 10 June Change force to forces.
advantage of this situation, which was favorable to the Baku commissioner American favorable.

Infobox

"27 June – 1 July 1918 (4 days)" Place the days below the date.
"35,000 (including Dashnak groups)" Same as above try to make "(including Dashnak groups)" below the strength.
Who's the later of the Soviet Russians?

Images

Why is File:Battle of Goychay plan.jpg in PD? The date part of the images means the original date.
File:Ottoman soldier in Azerbaijan.png Same as above. BTW if the author is unknown how do we know it is in PD in the US?
File:Azeri army soldiers.jpg There should be a US tag same with the other images if they are in PD.
Try to avoid. If you click on the images File:Rushdi Pasha.jpg and File:Stepan Shaumyan.jpg then you'll go to their articles.
Also try to have links to the sources in images who're in PD.

Sources

Ref 1, translate the title.
Birinci Dünya hərbində Türk hərbi, Qafqaz cəbhəsi, III ordu hərəkatı is it a book? If it then place it to the "Sources" section also why doesn't it have no link or book code?
Ref 7 has no link.
Ref 18 needs a translated title.
Süleymanov's source needs an access-date. And translate its title. Same with all foreign languages in the "Source" section.
Remove David Allen, William Edward; Muratoff, Paul's book's link and the archive because we only need the book code and a Google Books' URL if they give us a preview.
"Göyçay və Cavad qəzalarında erməni vəhşilikləri"'s link is dead.

That's anything I think there is a hope of work in the sources and the images but I think it can pass it these comments are addressed. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 19:45, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

Text

Y Removed both links. All languages were shown with templates, so I removed the templates too.
Y Fixed. Changed naming and the link.
Y Fixed. Left only one link to the Red Army.
? You mean a Wikipedia article? No, there is no Wikipedia article of Görüryılmaz. There is a page dedicated to him in kitapyurdu and biyografi. He seems encyclopedic enough, I actually can create an article about him.
Y Fixed. I was confused when writing this article. I really didn't knew who could Osman Bey could be. I linked him with Topal Osman. He fought in Caucasus and was a Yarbay, just like the Osman Bey in the article. It seems like he is referred to as Osman Bey in some sources.
N There is no Wikipedia article for Nazım Bey. His full name is . There are articles about him in University of Ankara and DergiPark.
Y Fixed.
Y Fixed.
Y Fixed.
Y Fixed.
Y Fixed.
N Changed it to Russians in Azerbaijan.
Y Fixed.
Y Fixed.
Y Fixed.
Y Fixed.
Y Fixed.
Y Fixed.
Y Fixed.
Y Fixed.
Y Fixed.
Y Fixed.

Infobox

Y Fixed.
Y Fixed.
* Russian SFSR and Baku Commune were different things. The latter was independent of Russian SFSR, its close ally.

@Solavirum: I'm sorry for the confusion but I meant "who's the leader of the Soviet Russian forces?". Sorry for the confusion. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 19:48, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@CPA-5:, I added Sergey Kirov for now, per my history teacher, but I will research it deeper and try to find a better variant. Cheers. --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 16:37, 17 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Images

* It is a battle plan, drawn during the battle (1918). The PD date is January 1, 1924 in US.
* It's author is unknown. The image was published in a state-sponsored encyclopedia. The image itself was most likely in the state archives.
Y Fixed.
Y Fixed. Removed links.
Y Fixed. Added links.

Sources

Y Fixed.
Y Fixed. I actually had such a hard time finding this book.
On hold I don't think I'd be able to find this that easily. I don't even think a URL exist for it. It was published in 1990, Azerbaijan wasn't even independent back then. There is no special link for it. A mention of issue of "tarix, fəlsəfə, hüquq seriyası" published in 1990 exists in here. It clearly exists, but not in the web. I might need to dig in on this topic IRL. But I don't even know if they would even let me in due to my age.
Y Fixed.
Y Fixed.
Y Fixed.

@CPA-5:, took a bit of a time, but I finally ended my work on the issues you addressed. Hope it's okay. Cheers bud! --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 11:14, 28 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@CPA-5 and Solavirum:. Hi how are we going with this. AIRcorn (talk) 07:24, 1 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Aircorn:, hello there! Well, nearly everything is done, except for this one (I don't think I'd be able to find this that easily. I don't even think a URL exist for it. It was published in 1990, Azerbaijan wasn't even independent back then. There is no special link for it. A mention of issue of "tarix, fəlsəfə, hüquq seriyası" published in 1990 exists in here. It clearly exists, but not in the web. I might need to dig in on this topic IRL. But I don't even know if they would even let me in due to my age.). I will try to get this done this week. --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 12:46, 1 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Solavirum. Good to hear. CPA has a few outstanding lagging reviews and I have left a personal message at their talk page seeing how they are going with these. If they don't get back to this one and you think it is right give me a ping and I can have a look for you. AIRcorn (talk) 17:44, 1 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Aircorn: and @CPA-5:, I deleted the ref in question, as I could not get access to the library. This was it, I think we can conclude this. --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 15:18, 27 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Aircorn: and @CPA-5:, actually forget that. My acquaintance was able to get the actual copy, and I converted it into PDF. Everything is done! --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 14:24, 28 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Solavirum: Aha that sounds good to hear now I believe the title needs to be translated and maybe a "|language=" template here. It looks like it is written in Cyrillic but in which language if I can ask you that question? I hope we finally can promote it before New Year. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 10:54, 30 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@CPA-5:,

done. It is in Azerbaijani, which used Cyrillic alphabet from 1938 to 1991. Cheers! --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 15:50, 30 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

All right now we finaly can promote it and a happy New Year. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 15:52, 30 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]