Talk:Avengers (Marvel Cinematic Universe)

Planned Good Topic

Now that this article has been promoted to a GA, I wanted to bring up the idea of a planned Avengers Good Topic again. I brought up the idea on the MCU task force talk page back in July, but I figured it should be brought back up here now that just two more articles need to be promoted to GA of the ones I had planned to include. Those being Production of Avengers: Infinity War and Avengers: Endgame (currently nominated for GA) and Avengers assemble scene (should be nominated soon).

The planned topic would look something like assuming those two articles are promoted to GAs (formatting is subject to change):

Avengers (Marvel Cinematic Universe)

10 articles

The Avengers

Accolades

Age of Ultron

Infinity War

Accolades

Endgame

Accolades

"Avengers assemble" scene

Production of Infinity War and Endgame

I mostly bring this up to make sure there is time to talk about any arguments on other potential additions while the GA process concludes for the other articles, or if nothing else needs to be included until Avengers 5 (unless an article for something like the Avengers theme gets created between now and then for example). -- ZooBlazer 02:03, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Per the original discussion, some of the other options included the soundtracks for each film, Avengers Campus, and potentially Lego Marvel's Avengers. I guess other options based on Category:Avengers (film series) could be What If... the World Lost Its Mightiest Heroes?, What If... Peter Quill Attacked Earth's Mightiest Heroes?, and What If... the Avengers Assembled in 1602?. Of all of those, I feel like only the soundtracks really could maybe have an argument to be included. The criteria for WP:GT states A topic must not cherry-pick only the best articles to become featured together, while also saying a set of similar, interrelated articles or lists that cover a specific topic. I feel like the scope of the topic is to focus on the films, while the accolades covers what is seen in the films. Not every subpage has to be included. -- ZooBlazer 07:17, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

I think it shouldn't add more articles since every important article it's already there. BigLordFlash^talk 15:17, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Add current alive or deceased state to the roster under status

The member roster states former or current status but no note if the character is alive or dead. I think this would help. 100.43.112.168 (talk) 19:19, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Those were previously removed as WP:FANCRUFT in-universe details not particularly necessary for this table. The fate of the characters is already explained in the fictional biography. Trailblazer101 (talk) 19:34, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

needs vitality rating

. 216.164.249.213 (talk) 11:32, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

No articles need a vital rating, although I am not sure this once is necessary or if it would be accepted as other MCU articles did not reach this when proposed. Trailblazer101 (talk) 15:13, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

the most commercially successful movie franchise of all time by far needs a vitality rating yes, and it needs to be at least 4 216.164.249.213 (talk) 00:21, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

This article is about the roster of characters, not the film series. Besides, Marvel Cinematic Universe is already a level-5 vital article, and these character articles were deemed to fall under that one in terms of vitability. The MCU is the broad topic for what you are suggesting. Trailblazer101 (talk) 00:47, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

the article for luffy from one piece (pretty much 0 following outside japan and ph) has a vital rating. level 5 means the article is among the 50,000 most important articles on the site, so yes, the characters from the most popular movie franchise in the world deserve to be a part of it, and honestly they deserve to be in levels 4 or 3 too (although i'm aware the latter will never happen as there is a strong historic bias on wikipedia) 216.164.249.213 (talk) 05:25, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

We do not determine vitability at the article talks. That is handled at WP:Vital articles. If you feel this should be included, take it there, not here (though I caution that it is unlikely to pass). WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS in regards to the example you provided, as not everything is vetted the same or by the same editors. Trailblazer101 (talk) 06:17, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

WP:OSE is for deletion because people can create an article without much vetting. as you've pointed out vital ratings are vetted much more so it doesn't really apply.

i wasn't aware there was a designated place to post these. i'm aware of the vital articles page but i don't see any place to start a discussion about an specific article 216.164.249.213 (talk) 07:06, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Addition of Okoye in the team roster

As per previous discussion on Okoye, some reliable sources were needed to prove that she officially joined Avengers in Avengers: Endgame. So here are the sources that will help in her addition to the team roster:

• https://screenrant.com/black-panther-wakanda-forever-okoye-avengers-setup/
• https://screenrant.com/black-panther-2-okoye-throne-deleted-scene-important/
• https://www.motionpictures.org/2019/07/danai-gurira-confirms-her-return-as-okoye-in-black-panther-2/

Crampsteed (talk) 06:48, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Also list her in both chronological and alphabetical order — above Nebula. Crampsteed (talk) 06:52, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Okoye being in the team. Littlesquirrell (talk) 13:46, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

I pinged few frequent editors (@InfiniteNexus, @Trailblazer101 and @ZooBlazer) who frequently participated in recent discussion, only because this discussion is needed before adding a member in team roster — as per comment. Although I'm surprised as this article has history of fast replies within 6 hours. Crampsteed (talk) 16:37, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

None of these are direct confirmation that Okoye officially joined the team and are just these blogs' own determinations. We need something a little more concrete than a couple sites coming to the same conclusion without an official confirmation. Trailblazer101 (talk) 16:48, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

@Trailblazer101, editors had mixed opinion regarding Okoye's inclusion in the team roster. Many were in favour and she was also added many times, only to be removed by those who disagreed on one major point that there were no reliable sources which were needed. Now not only 1 but I've been able to provide 3 sources. Even though Captain Marvel's inclusion in the team was on the basis of this 1 source () which itself was primary source and didn't have direct confirmation of her joining the team. Secondly, these are not from blogs (i.e., WordPress, etc) as they reliable secondary sources as per WP:RS. If anyone still have doubt, they can ask at Reliable sources/Noticeboard about them. Also, there is direct confirmation of Okoye joining the team in these sources, even word like "officially joined" is used. Crampsteed (talk) 17:20, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

I've found only 2 secondary sources regarding Captain Marvel and so that her status won't be challenged in future, I'm referencing them here - and Crampsteed (talk) 17:59, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Prior consensus is that Okoye is not clearly shown to be an Avenger in the film itself. All we can say from that is that she worked alongside them. Marvel.com has some affiliation with the rest of Marvel, so I would argue that is a more reputable source than Screen Rant and The Credits (not saying those are not reliable, just that they are stating something that has not been confirmed by Marvel or the creatives involved, and are thus coming to their own interpretations). Also, Carol Danvers' status is not in contention here. Trailblazer101 (talk) 18:04, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

If you read archived discussions, you'll notice the same situation had happened with Pietro Maximoff and Captain Marvel's inclusion that is happening with Okoye. I'm hopeful that just like them, she'll be added in the roster as per my points in this discussion. Also, I'm sure that previous consensus was to provide a reliable source. If we're talking about Marvel.com, here is the official article of Avengers (Marvel Cinematic Universe) — but we can't take it into account as in it Black Panther and Wasp, who were never members in the films — are included in the team. And unfortunately, Okoye's history according to Marvel.com is limited to Avengers: Infinity War; so that only left with the option of taking these secondary sources into account as per WP:RS. Crampsteed (talk) 18:26, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

For simplicity, I think we should limit the list to those who directly worked alongside the Avengers. For Endgame, that would be those who participated in the Time Heist (plus Captain Marvel, who worked with the Avengers at the beginning). InfiniteNexus (talk) 17:14, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

In Endgame, Captain Marvel was present in the holographic meeting along Avengers. For the rest of the film, she didn't participated in Time Heist and lastly joined Battle of Earth. In the film's beginning, Captain Marvel was planning to deal with Thanos alone, which shows she didn't joined Avengers right away. The situation is same as Okoye: given starring credit in the film, appeared in meeting and joined last battle. Vinbrad (talk) 06:02, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree with this. -- ZooBlazer 06:24, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

I'll opine that as said in WP:CON, consensus is an effort to address editors' legitimate concerns through a process of compromise while following Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, as Wikipedia is not democracy Your discussion (even polls sometimes) needs to be supported by those policies and guidelines if they exists; which is clearly done by @Crampsteed here. If the consensus is still tied, we can reach out for third opinion. Also, I agree with Okoye's addition, per @Crampsteed so you just rather have to be bold and add her. Vinbrad (talk) 05:19, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

For those arguing in favor of the inclusion of Okoye, Captain Marvel, or anyone else who worked with the Avengers but did not participate in the Time Heist, by that same logic, technically everyone who arrived through the portals and responded to Cap's call in the Avengers assemble scene should be listed as Avengers on this page. Just because certain characters worked with the Avengers, that doesn't automatically make them part of the team. And technically, when Black Widow was conversing with Okoye, Captain Marvel, and Rhodey, the Avengers weren't actively functioning as a group. With that in mind, I would be in support of limiting the team lineup to those who actually functioned as confirmed members of the group. User:Jgstokes (talk)—We can disagree without becoming disagreeable. 05:50, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

@User:Jgstokes The arguments aren't about adding members who worked with Avengers, they were stretched a bit. My points were of previous discussions on Okoye and reliable sources. I'm not agreeing and disagreeing in my following statement — Do you know your reply contradicts Captain Marvel's inclusion in the team and also Black Widow's leadership (2018-2023) which is present in the infobox?. Crampsteed (talk) 06:16, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

I am all in favour of the addition of Okoye but I am also in favour of considering the clear-cut mixed opinions on the consensus. My suggestion is to wait for now, without discrediting Okoye's status as Avenger. We should wait for Avengers: Doomsday and Avengers: Secret Wars to see her involvement (as remaining members have history of participating in sequels too). Relyone (talk) 08:59, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree with this. Vinbrad (talk) 05:51, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

References