Talk:Autumn Leaves (1945 song)

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Untitled

This is a really well done article! Thanks to whoever put it together! 68.58.1.211 (talk) 14:09, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There are problems with this article:

1) Was it really written in 1902, as is implied by its categorization? How come? The persons mentioned were born later. If it were written in 1902, who wrote it, and what exactly did Joseph Kosma do? An arrangement?

2) Is it legal to publish the lyrics? Aren't they copyrighted?

--Antonios Christofides 07:58, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The may have been copywrited, but given that the song is over 50 years (indeed 100 years) old then it's copyright has expired (I believe).--Giggidy 00:33, 22 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

If Johnny Mercer's English lyric had its copyright renewed, under the copyright laws of the day its original copyright expited 56 years after it was written (which means just about now). But the new copyright law extends copyright to 75 years after the author's death... so if this applies, at least Mercer's lyrics are still under copyright. -- BRG 15:28, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

French lyric

I think this is the original lyric - it tallies with my knowledge of the song - but I don't speak French so could someone check it for me. Ta.

Oh ! je voudrais tant que tu te souviennes,

Des jours heureux où nous étions amis,

En ce temps-là, la vie était plus belle,

Et le soleil plus brûlant qu'aujourd’hui.

Les feuilles mortes se ramassent à la pelle,

Tu vois, je n'ai pas oublié.

Les feuilles mortes se ramassent à la pelle,

Les souvenirs et les regrets aussi.

Et le vent du Nord les emporte,

Dans la nuit froide de l'oubli.

Tu vois, je n'ai pas oublié

La chanson que tu me chantais...

C'est une chanson qui nous ressemble,

Toi qui m'aimais, moi qui t'aimais.

Nous vivions tous les deux ensemble,

Toi qui m'aimais, moi qui t'aimais.

Mais la vie sépare ceux qui s'aiment,

Tout doucement sans faire de bruit.

Et la mer efface sur le sable,

Les pas des amants désunis. --Giggidy 00:32, 22 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

All those words are there, but they seem to have been muddled up. In fact there are two verses, plus the refrain - but most recordings only repeat the refrain. I have only heard the verses as a kind of parlando, or at least very "rubato", i.e. in slow, free rhythm. The bottom part of your posting gives the refrain, both verses seem to be in the upper part but I can't be sure from memory. Try to find a recording by Belgian artist Johan Verminnen, he does give the verses, whereas many recordings only repeat the refrain. Jan olieslagers (talk) 16:37, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"Selective list" violates NPOV.

I've removed the small section, Selective list of recordings, because it violates NPOV. Specifically, no criteria are given for these selections. Wikipedia can't endorse Keith Jarrett's version, for example, as "better" or "more significant" than another musician's. If the article is going to selectively identify particular recordings, then those choices need to be explained and cited.

Also, NPOV aside, the list is worthless. It doesn't specify whether it's referring to specific recordings. One entry reads, "1946 Yves Montand." Does that mean that Montand recorded the song in 1946, or simply that he sang it somewhere? (On stage? In a movie?) If the list were permitted by NPOV policy — which it isn't — it would have to cite specific recordings. For instance: Keith Jarrett, Tokyo '96, ECM Records ©1998. Cribcage 20:44, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I just removed a couple more. All Music Guide shows over 1200 cuts of this song; no reason to list any if we're not going to do a comprehensive survey! --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 07:27, 6 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with this point of view. The article should be on the song, not on the various covers. The articles on the indivudal artists can to that if they want. An except might occur in the case of a really famous recording or a first recording, like Elvis Presley and "Heartbreak Hotel." Mattisse (talk) 12:19, 6 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. This article needs references to document where source material is coming from. Mattisse (talk) 12:21, 6 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why not list all 1200? Just do it in really small print. Or, barring that, list any that made the Billboard Hot 100, or garnered some other relatively high sales ranking, and point out that there are over 1200 covers. You can't list all the Yesterday covers either, but listing the Beatles' version and pointing out that there are hundreds of covers seems fair. Wahkeenah 13:36, 6 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sure. The Beatles' version of Yesterday is definitive and original. Elvis' version of Heartbreak Hotel is definitive (was it the first? I think so.) Whose version of "The Autumn Leaves" is definitive? We list the originator, Yves Montand. Our List of jazz standards arbitrarily lists Yves Montand, Jo Stafford, Artie Shaw, Bing Crosby, Cannonball Adderley, Bill Evans, Roger Williams, Édith Piaf, Paul Weston, Mitch Miller, Jackie Gleason, Keith Jarrett, Vince Guaraldi Trio, Duke Ellington, Nat King Cole, Paul Desmond, Ahmad Jamal. Really, though, anyone who does jazz standards does this song eventually; that's the whole point of doing standards. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 15:20, 6 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Heartbreak Hotel was written for Elvis Presley to record. The Beatles wrote "Yesterday". According to one book I have (Furia), "Autumn Leaves" was a popular European instumental for which Johnny Mercer was hired to provide English lyrics. I don't know who first recorded the English version nor who made the English version popular. Now, as you say, it is an old jazz standard. Mattisse (talk) 15:49, 6 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like Edith Piaf did the the first version in English. Here's an interesting quote from a forum: The melody of 'Autumn Leaves' was originally written as a ballet music for 'Le rendez-vous' for Roland Petit. The original stage design was done by Pablo Picasso. Moved by the music and the dance, the French film director Michael Carné' based his screenplay on 'Le rendez-vous': not without problems. Originally he tried to talk Marlene Dietrich into playing the lead role, which she refused. Another actor refused the role because of the fact that Marlene had refused. The composer Kosma, who had set the melody of the ballet into a chanson on the poem ' Feuilles mortes' (Dead leaves), insisted in using the sung version. The movie was a disaster, but the melody (hummed by Yves Montand) became an instant hit. History tells that the first recording was made by Cora Vaucair in 1948. Yves Montand followed the same year. In 1949, Juliette Greco made the first clip while singing the song (amidst autumn scenes of course). The first English version, which was translated by Johnny Mercer, was sung by Edith Piaf...[1] --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 15:56, 6 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My Billboard Top 40 book says that Roger Williams had a number 1 hit with it for 4 weeks in 1955 (starting in late August, appropriately). It also reached number 35, later that same year, done by Steve Allen along with George Cates and his orchestra. I would say those are likely both instrumentals (piano, specifically). That was before the Top 40 became almost strictly rock-and-roll. Cates is better known for his work with Lawrence Welk. I would argue that if any names are to be included, Williams should be in there due to having a major hit version. Wahkeenah 00:15, 7 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Johnny Mercer didn't translate it as he did not know the French language and was not a translator. And he wasn't the kind of guy who would be willing to work over someone else's lyrics. Someone may have given him a translated version (it sounds like the quote above is saying that the melody was great but the French lyrics were awful) or (per Philip Furia book and Max Wilk book) he took the instumental (maybe knowing the general drift of the French lyrics) and wrote his own lyrics. Johnny Mercer was a master lyricist (even Alec Wilder acknowledges that). If Edith Piaf did the first English version (but didn't do one in French?) then it might have been because Mercer's lyrics were wonderfully superior. Mattisse (talk) 01:38, 7 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

{unindent} P.S. If you read the section in the article about chord changes, giving Mercer's accompanying lyric, there is nothing in the French translation in the link above, that remotely resumbles the beauty of the lyric with that chord. And that's what Mercer did so well -- and why he prefered to have the melody first and then write the lyrics. Mattisse (talk) 01:47, 7 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Such idiotic rubbish!! So you judge the quality of the *original* French lyrics through some lousy automated translator?? Gosh. Duh. How stupid. I speak both French and English and I can vouch that the English version strangely resembles the original French lyrics (same themes, same sentences, same words, etc...). I find it highly dubious that whoever wrote the English lyrics had no clue about the original French lyrics. Entire sentences are literally pumped off. Anyway. As you sp admitted yourself, you don't know French, thereby turning the value of your opinion about the original French lyrics to about a fat zero. Maybe someone also ought to reveal to you that your screen name "Mat(t)isse" isn't completely original... but then again, this is probably another "coincidence"... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.57.12.119 (talk) 10:45, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I heard something on XM the other day -- that Mercer worked with something like 150 different composers. That's pretty remarkable. One of the few songs he actually composed is the marvelous I Wanna Be Around. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 02:08, 7 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

He couldn't read music -- he went by ear. On the melodies he did compose, he had to have someone else write the music and he could only say "yes" or "no" about the chord his helper would produce. He knew it if he heard it -- he had a good ear. Mattisse (talk) 02:17, 7 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oh by the way, I think Piaf did record the French version -- I'm just not entirely sure when. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 02:19, 7 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The link given above Everything@Autumn Leaves says "the first English version was sung by Edith Piaf" -- doesn't say she recorded it. And this source could be wrong, as it confuses "translate" and "write" regarding Mercer. Mattisse (talk) 11:45, 7 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed the random list. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 16:11, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is so goddamn silly. So at least 1,200 people recorded this song. Obviously we can't (or shouldn't) list them all. But does that justify - let alone require - we include none at all? If we were to apply such a rigid understanding of fairness to everything, we might as well close Wikipedia down. If you absolutely need a razor-sharp criterion, why not list just the recordings by artists considered relevant enough to have an article here? If it turns out to bloat the article, we might easily create a separate list article. Of course, it wouldn't need to be complete on day one, either; I'm pretty sure the List of mountains wasn't made exhaustive in a day, either. Jimmy Fleischer (talk) 17:27, 6 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

According to the current (2019) recommendations at WP:COVERSONG, our article ought to list only the most notable performances, probably just the original French releases from 1950 and the Roger Williams #1 instrumental from 1955. I haven't deleted the long list of non-notable performances by notable performers, but wouldn't object if somebody else wants to. —173.68.139.31 (talk) 02:19, 12 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

14+ years later, it's even worse. I've started a new conversation below. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 20:27, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Plagiarized from Tchaikovsky !!!

Please compare the theme of 'Autumn Leaves' with 56 seconds from the ouverture "Hamlet" Op. 67 composed in 1888 by Piotr Ilitch Tchaikovsky; my version of this opus is 21'42" long and the single minute of music to which I refer is placed between the times 7'50" and 8'36" counting from the beginning of the ouverture. I've cut this fragment and uploaded into wiki; it is available at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Tchaikovsky-Hamlet_Op67_vs_Kosma-FeuillesMortes.ogg PisikaA (talk) 22:29, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I do appreciate you are a Tchaikovsky fan but the melodies are not the same. This is a simple sequence of chords that follows a circle of fourths (plus an interlude in the Hungarian minor scale which is the most original, added element by Kosma). Tchaikovsky and Kosma are just using a very common compositional exercise of transposition. This was a popular device they probably had to know from their formative years. Popular songs as "All the things you are" or "Manhã de Carnaval" also use this pattern.46.14.140.220 (talk) 22:25, 5 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Gap advert

Does anybody know who did the version of Autumn Leaves that was featured in the TV commercial for Gap around 2000-2002ish? I'm not sure if it was shown worldwide, but it was on TV a lot here in the UK. 79.66.34.70 (talk) 03:09, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Odd Imagery

The couplet, "Since you went away, the days grow long/And soon I'll hear old winter's song", is backwards, in that the days grow shorter as winter approaches. It could easily be fixed by substituting "nights" for "days". Perhaps that was Mercer's original notion, bowdlerized early on as too risqué for its time.

Interesting -- I sing this all the time and never thought about it. Perhaps Mercer was contrasting how, even though the days grow shorter in reality, it seems like they are growing longer because the beloved has gone away? I don't think the censors were touchy about just mentioning night... --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 15:37, 25 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Original

It don't stays in the article anything'bout the original performer. 62.16.168.251 (talk) 17:56, 10 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Irony

"Ironically Chet recorded it in concert F minor and adds a six bar tag of F minor at the end of every chorus."

What is ironic about F minor?

I think there's a tendency to think "ironic" means "cool" among people who are neither cool nor ironic. I've cleaned it out. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 15:46, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Autumn Leaves the only number 1 piano instrumental? I think not.

Roger Williams version of "Autumn Leaves", as nice as it is, is not a true piano instrumental. If you are to call that a "piano instrumental" given all the strings providing backing throughout the song, then you must give the same credit to another Billboard number one, "Chariots of Fire" by Vangelis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.202.195.159 (talk) 08:13, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Possibly plagiarized music.

Years ago I heard an opinion on the radio that the melody was taken from and old gospel "Footprints of Jesus". I've listened to that gospel and I agree with that opinion. Unfortunately there are gospels with that name on Youtube but they are different from the one I know. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.61.138.86 (talk) 18:19, 20 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ridiculous list is ridiculous

WP:COVERSONG tells us that "only cover versions/renditions important enough to have gained attention in their own right should be added to song articles." This song has been covered thousands of times. Almost none of the renditions in the "Other versions" section meet COVERSONG even slightly. If I clean it up, I'm inclined to be brutal about it: no charting, no independent source indicating it's a significant cover, it's gone. That would leave perhaps Edith Piaf, Roger Williams, and Jo Stafford. Does anyone have a useful and less drastic approach? --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 18:08, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I guess not. Time to be brutal again. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 15:47, 18 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Time to get rid of Iggy Pop. MarkinBoston (talk) 15:02, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yup. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 15:10, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No lyrics????

Ridiculous there are no lyrics to such a famous song to be found anywhere on Wikipedia. 100.11.14.180 (talk) 02:27, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

White Army, Black Baron

Clearly this tune is based in part on the earlier Red army marching song called White Army, Black Baron. Of course, we’ll need reliable sources to ‘prove’ this obvious fact before we can include it in the main body of the article (as if to prove me right, an addition to the main body of the article by a Good Samaritan who probably read this at the talk page was reverted by a jobsworth 😢). Overlordnat1 (talk) 16:24, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Genre, Peace Music

Taking into consideration the time period and the composers' biographies, it is likely that this composition belongs to the genre of peace music also. Philotrio (talk) 11:45, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Adagio from the Secred garden

Hello WIkipedia moderators and users. I've noticed, that Adagio from Secred garden album has a similar influence of this song, but It isn't mentioned in this article. It is just My point of view, but when You have listened both songs, those songs are similar. Cassa342 (talk) 22:29, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Terry Riley "In C"

re: "Composer Terry Riley has written a contrafact of the song (1965), using the same principle of small repetitive cells of melody and rhythm first put in use in his breakthrough piece, In C (1964)."

This is wrong - the author has misunderstood the source they have cited, which clearly states "The first piece Riley write after In C was Autumn Leaves", and explains how the two pieces differ. According to the article, while Riley's "Autumn Leaves" uses elements from the Kosma tune, "In C" does not. Furthermore, as Riley's Autumn Leaves dispenses with the Kosma harmonic structure it cannot be said to be a "contrafact", at least in the jazz sense of the term. 103.78.208.163 (talk) 05:30, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]