Talk:August 2023 mid-south U.S. floods

A fact from August 2023 mid-south U.S. floods appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 21 August 2023 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that during the August 2023 Mid-South U.S. floods, 3.77 inches (96 mm) of rain fell in Columbia, Missouri, breaking a 113-year rainfall record?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2023/August. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/August 2023 Mid-South U.S. floods.

Wikipedia

Weather Low‑importance

	Weather portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Weather, which collaborates on weather and related subjects on Wikipedia. To participate, help improve this article or visit the project page for details. Articles Requested Project Resources Become a Member Project Talk Assessment A-Class Alerts WeatherWikipedia:WikiProject WeatherTemplate:WikiProject WeatherWeather articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

United States: Kentucky Low‑importance

	United States portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. Template Usage Articles Requested! Become a Member Project Talk Alerts United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	Kentucky portal This article is supported by WikiProject Kentucky (assessed as Low-importance).

Missouri Low‑importance

	Missouri portal This article is part of WikiProject Missouri, a WikiProject related to the U.S. state of Missouri. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.MissouriWikipedia:WikiProject MissouriTemplate:WikiProject MissouriMissouri articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Tennessee Low‑importance

	Tennessee portal August 2023 mid-south U.S. floods is within the scope of WikiProject Tennessee, an open collaborative effort to coordinate work for and sustain comprehensive coverage of Tennessee and related subjects in the Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, and even become a member. [Project Articles] • [Project Page] • [Project Talk] • [Assessment] • [Template Usage]TennesseeWikipedia:WikiProject TennesseeTemplate:WikiProject TennesseeTennessee articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

On 22 August 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to August 2023 Southeastern United States floods. The result of the discussion was Moved, to August 2023 mid-south U.S. floods.

On 16 September 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to August 2023 Mid-South U.S. floods. The result of the discussion was not moved.

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Bruxton (talk) 15:35, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(

Comment or view
Article history

)

... that during the August 2023 Mid-South U.S. floods, 3.77 inches (96 mm) of rain fell in Columbia, Missouri, breaking a 113-year rainfall record? Source: https://www.foxweather.com/weather-news/flash-flood-tennessee-kentucky-severe-storms-southeast
- ALT1: ... that during the August 2023 Mid-South U.S. floods, mudslides forced a road leading to Hickman, Kentucky to close? Source: https://www.westkentuckystar.com/News/Local-Regional/Mudslide-in-Hickman-may-keep-downtown-road-closed
- Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Carex pauciflora

Created by Tails Wx (talk). Self-nominated at 05:36, 10 August 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/August 2023 Mid-South U.S. floods; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.[reply]

Hi Tails Wx (talk), review follows: article created 4 August and exceeds minimum length; article is well written and cited inline throughout to what look to be reliable sources for the information cited; I didn't pick up any issues with overly close paraphrasing form the sources; hook facts are both stated in the article and check out to sources cited, preference probably for ALT0 as the more interesting; a QPQ has been carried out. Looks fine to me - Dumelow (talk) 07:09, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 22 August 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved, to August 2023 mid-south U.S. floods. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 11:30, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

August 2023 Mid-South U.S. floods → August 2023 Southeastern United States floods – Mid-South isn’t a very helpful geographic term, also Missouri could arguably be considered the Southeast. 97.125.147.175 (talk) 22:56, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: Missouri, Tennesee and Kentucky seem neither south nor eastern – especially since we're talking about the western part of Kentucky and the western part of Tennessee. Upland South, Central or mid-south seems like the best way to describe them. Note that the article about the Southeastern United States indicates that it is not clear whether they should be included there. But why is "South" capitalized here? Isn't that contrary to MOS:HYPHENCAPS? Move to August 2023 Mid-south United States floods, August 2023 Upland South United States floods or August 2023 Central United States floods. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 02:16, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note that Missouri is not in the Southern United States and is not in the Eastern United States, so it should basically not be considered to be in the Southeastern United States. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 02:26, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Or August 2023 Upland South floods, since Wikipedia considers "Upland South" unambiguous. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 02:31, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per BarrelProof's reasoning, and August 2023 Mid-south United States floods would be best. Tails Wx (they/them) ⚧ 02:23, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No it wouldn’t, because absolutely no one is going to be able to find the title of with that weird keyword. Support August 2023 Upland South floods.173.23.45.183 (talk) 13:54, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
See BarrelProof's reasoning above. Tails Wx (they/them) ⚧ 14:00, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Mid-South is a real place, but it includes Mississippi and not Alabama, and Upland South includes Alabama, hence Upland South is a better term. 63.76.154.130 (talk) 15:33, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Article link: Mid-South (region). —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:46, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
However, then we leave this article title intact and don’t move it at all.--63.76.154.130 (talk) 22:36, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No. "South" is capitalised, and as stated above, is contrary to MOS:HYPHENCAPS. Tails Wx (they/them) ⚧ 02:02, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I started an RM for that article, but they have to be consistent with each other. 4.4.139.206 (talk) 10:36, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I also notice Mid-South Derecho of 2003. That is formatted as a proper name (note the capital letter in "Derecho"), but I suspect it should not be. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:02, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per BarrelProof and WP:CONCISE. Support August 2023 mid-south U.S. floods - no need to cap mid-south at all (it is descriptive), and certainly not south per MOS:HYPHENCAPS and MOS:COMPASS. Cinderella157 (talk) 12:28, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Cinderella157: Cosensus at the other article Barrel linked above is to keep south capaitalized. And these two must remain consistent. 199.76.113.24 (talk) 16:21, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please be more specific as to where this consensus is. Cinderella157 (talk) 22:22, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 16 September 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) Edward-Woodrow • talk 14:14, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

August 2023 mid-south U.S. floods → August 2023 Mid-South U.S. floods – As noted on the recent failed move request of Mid-South (region), it is a proper noun (and is consistently capitalized as with that title) and this article should be capitalized consistent with that proper noun. The previous move was based on incorrect reasoning and failure to understand that it is not a mere description. oknazevad (talk) 00:49, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Unsure. MOS:HYPHENCAPS seems to argue against the capitalization of "south" here. "South" by itself is not a proper noun here; it just part of a hyphenated modifier of "U.S." The noun is "U.S.", not "south". This is different from the arguable use of "South" as a geographic proper noun in "Mid-South (region)", since that title does not include "U.S." —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 01:14, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No, "Mid-South United States" is a total noun phrase, just like Northeast United States or Midwest United States, both of which are capitalized as proper nouns even mid-sentence, even when short forms are used. The names of regions of the United States are proper nouns, not merely adjectives, even if they aren't particularly creative names, and should be capitalized. oknazevad (talk) 22:37, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
But look at book stats. Lowercase it's common enough to appear, but uppercase it's not. So yes, a "total noun phrase", but not a proper name. Dicklyon (talk) 00:20, 17 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

My remark is not about the whole phrase; it is focused on the letter that follows the hyphen, based on MOS:HYPHENCAPS. Northeast United States and Midwest United States do not contain hyphens. And in the article title about the region, there is no "U.S." —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 04:04, 17 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose and nom's premise that "it is a proper noun (and is consistently capitalized as with that title)" is false. It may be more commonly capped, but certainly not consistently, and there's no evidence of it being a proper name of anything, in spite of that thinly-attended failed RM. Dicklyon (talk) 20:22, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The Mid-South region is well attested as a proper name. That's why the RM went nowhere, because the evidence was overwhelming and complete. Just because you don't like that real world English usage doesn't always follow consistent rules spent mean you can ignore reality. oknazevad (talk) 22:32, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's not even clear what you're saying is well attested, or where we'd find support for that notion. A region is not a name. Dicklyon (talk) 00:22, 17 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The use of "mid-south United States" is also well attested. See these books for example: [1], [2], [3], [4]. Writing as "mid South" and "Mid-south" are also not uncommon. Dicklyon (talk) 00:25, 17 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Oknazevad has identified (perhaps inadvertently) that the key phrase to consider is mid-south United States and not just mid-south, since the title uses the former, albeit abbreviating United States. An ngram search (per Dicklyon) does not support the proposal. Noting that the ngram corpus is a subset of Google books, a search here and the examples provided by DL show inconsistent capitalisation not sufficient to support the proposed capitalisation with reference to WP:NCCAPS and MOS:CAPS. Furthermore, MOS:HYPHENCAPS tells us not to cap after a hyphen - another reason to reject the proposal. While it may or may not be appropriate to capitalise Mid-South as a stand-alone term, it does not follow that mid-south should be capitalized when it acts as a modifier of United States. The nom's argument fails in this respect. It fails in respect to the evidence presented and the criteria set by WP:P&G. This discussion does, however, suggest that it might be more appropriate to title the article Mid-South (region) as Mid-south United States. Cinderella157 (talk) 11:56, 18 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.