Talk:Aspartame/Archive 8

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Biased reporting

Unconstructive NOTFORUM and OR
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
This article is clearly largely written by someone with a strong bias in favor of the safety of aspartame. 71.184.150.48 (talk) 23:04, 1 July 2022 (UTC) Not biased, but based on reliable sources for food safety, such as this. Zefr (talk) 23:22, 1 July 2022 (UTC) So the FDA concludes that aspartame has no association with cancer, and there are many citations for this, and yet, curiously, the FDA also concludes that formaldehyde is carcinogenic, and that aspartame breaks down into formaldehyde before it leaves the digestive tract. This seems to be a semantic run-around. The FDA won't conclude something is carcinogenic for what it metabolizes into, only for what it is. Common sense would dictate that this should not be enough to determine food safety. The FDA's approval process for aspartame was furthermore problematic, and fraught with conflicts of interest. Donald Rumsfeld, who was a former member of the U.S. Congress and the Chief of Staff in the Gerald Ford Administration, was hired as G.D. Searle’s President. Attorney James Turner, Esq. alleged that G.D. Searle hired Rumsfeld to handle the aspartame approval difficulties as a “legal problem rather than a scientific problem.” (US Senate 1987). For this approval process, Rumsfeld hired the following people: - John Robson as Executive Vice President. He was a former lawyer with Sidley and Austin, Searle’s Law Firm and also served as chairman of the Civil Aeronautics Board, which was then connect to the Department of Transportation. - Robert Shapiro as General Counsel. He is now head of Searle’s NutraSweet Division. He had been Robson’s Special Assistant at the Department of Transportation. - William Greener, Jr., as Chief Spokesman. He was a former spokesman in the [Gerald] Ford White House. Donald Rumsfeld was on the Board of Directors of the Chicago Tribune which recently wrote a glowing article about the NutraSweet Company. On January 10, 1977, FDA Chief Counsel Richard Merrill recommended to U.S. Attorney Sam Skinner in a 33-page letter detailing violations of the law that a grand jury be set up to investigate G.D. Searle. In the letter, Merrill stated: “We request that your office convene a Grand Jury investigation into apparent violations of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act, 21 U.S..C. 331(e), and the False Reports to the Government Act, 18 U.S.C. 1001, by G.D. Searle and Company and three of its responsible officers for their willful and knowing failure to make reports to the Food and Drug Administration required by the Act, 21 U.S.C. 355(i), and for concealing material facts and making false statements in reports of animal studies conducted to establish the safety of the drug Aldactone and the food additive Aspartame.” Aspartame has been controversial since day one. Searle, the manufacturer, had failed to win FDA approval for 16 years and was under investigation for performing fraudulent studies. Aspartame was suddenly approved in 1981 when Donald Rumsfeld, former CEO of Searle and new member of President Ronald Reagan's transition team, appointed a new FDA commissioner. The controversy never died down. Today for example, the State of New Mexico is attempting to ban aspartame. It is banned in Japan and officially discouraged in China. But in the USA, the FDA and lobbying groups like the Calorie Council continue to proclaim its safety. A 1996 review of past research conducted on aspartame found that every industry-funded study had said the sweetener was safe to consume. However 92 percent of independent studies claim one or more problems exist with its use, the British newspaper the Guardian reported. FullerFalafelLover (talk) 13:57, 14 July 2022 (UTC) The claim that aspartame is unsafe is a paranoid conspiracy theory. tgeorgescu (talk) 23:59, 5 July 2022 (UTC) The claim that regulatory apparatuses are regularly subverted by private parties with conflicts of interest is complacently and trustingly dismissed as "paranoid" and "conspiracy theory", and yet, one can see in the history of the approval of aspartame multiple conflicts of interest. Something that eventually metabolizes into formaldehyde is carcinogenic, no matter how "non-carcinogenic" it is when it first enters the body. Donald Rumsfeld, when he was in the Gerald Ford administration, pushed to fast-track the approval of aspartame after it ran into difficulties. Arizona Center for Advanced Medicine on June 26, 2013 wrote a history of Aspartame's problematic efforts to get FDA approval. When workers go on strike or organize into unions people say "ah yes, the workers are consciously organizing to pursue their own interests." And yet when powerful people in the private sector and the public sector organize to pursue their financial and legal interests, it is dismissed as "paranoid conspiracy theory." No matter how much evidence is presented, more is demanded. The sources are questioned, and the class of people that have the greatest financial means to cover up their crimes and conflicts of interest are able to hand-wave away the loose ends they failed to completely bury. The investigators of these crimes, who jeopardize their own safety and risk retaliation, are often barred legally from actually pursuing these leads to their logical ends, and yet when they bring up their allegations, the evidence they do find is never enough to satisfy the so-called neutral councils of so-called experts set up to rubberstamp the agendas of their paymasters. What a shame. FullerFalafelLover (talk) 14:17, 14 July 2022 (UTC) FullerFalafelLover - the talk page is for discussing specific ways to improve the article, supported by WP:RS sources. The FDA draws from the review literature and safety data for assessing substances like aspartame - there is no better scrutiny on a food substance, and it remains one of the highest quality sources of WP:MEDSCI. The talk page is not a blog page to air out your grievances and diffuse history - WP:TALKNO and WP:NOTFORUM. Zefr (talk) 14:30, 14 July 2022 (UTC) is it not pertinent that they pointed out "Arizona Center for Advanced Medicine on June 26, 2013 wrote a history of Aspartame's problematic efforts to get FDA approval." and quote "Donald Rumsfeld, when he was in the Gerald Ford administration, pushed to fast-track the approval of aspartame after it ran into difficulties." Is it not odd that you showed up in 13 minutes flat with your response to FullerFalafelLover but had no such timeliness towards the crude gaslighting of tgeorgescu, who rudely and dismissively suggested that any conflicts of interest, however visible, are a "paranoid conspiracy theory?" Here's a very tepid suggestion. The article would be improved by a section detailing the history of how "Searle, the manufacturer [of aspartame], had failed to win FDA approval for 16 years." Seems relevant. Maybe I'll take a shot at it. I'm sure I'll be accused of "edit warring" and have my changes scrubbed by people who definitely have no interest in maintaining a sterile narrative of the FDA having the final word, regardless of how many politically biased individuals with conflicts of interest (like Rumsfeld) were pushing to fast-track aspartame's approval. DodgyPunt (talk) 15:38, 14 July 2022 (UTC) Also, you said "there is no better scrutiny on a food substance, and it remains one of the highest quality sources of WP:MEDSCI" The FDA agrees, by the way that formaldehyde is carcinogenic, and that aspartame metabolizes into formaldehyde. The "safety" of aspartame is predicated on the idea that it is safe when it enters the body, not when it metabolizes into a known carcinogen. The mental gymnastics in avoiding this being relevant to the article is worrisome at best. So is the mental gymnastics in ignoring the conflicts of interest in the history of this specific case. DodgyPunt (talk) 15:43, 14 July 2022 (UTC) Your body produces and metabolises about 45g of formaldehyde a day. Many things are carcinogenic. It's all about dose, not gymnastics Unbh (talk) 17:32, 14 July 2022 (UTC) and the dose of that carcinogen increases with your consumption of aspartame. Stoutcobsofthecorn (talk) 06:34, 16 July 2022 (UTC) Yup, but since aspartame is 200 times sweeter than sugar, the formaldehyde from all aspartame you ingest during a day is less than 0.1 grams. I would say much less. tgeorgescu (talk) 08:38, 16 July 2022 (UTC) The FDA acknowledges no safety concern about the metabolism of aspartame consumed in typical or high amounts. Only a small component of aspartame is metabolized into methanol which is further catabolized into formaldehyde, a compound then rapidly degraded further and bound by proteins, making it of no concern in vivo, as discussed in the EFSA document, see Conclusions. No reputable reviews have shown a relationship between use of aspartame and cancer, as discussed in the EFSA document, the article Cancer section, and the US National Cancer Institute referenced there. The argument made about a formaldehyde concern is hollow, as it has been thoroughly assessed over decades with no evidence or significance from in vivo studies to date. Zefr (talk) 17:35, 14 July 2022 (UTC) The FDA approval of aspartame was one of the most controversial FDA approvals in history. The manufacturer Searle submitted 168 studies they conducted themselves. Why a private sector company standing to profit from the sale of aspartame was allowed to submit their own studies is something you don't even begin to question. U.S. Attorney Samuel Skinner was requested to "open a grand jury investigation into whether two of Searle's aspartame studies had been falsified or were incomplete." Skinner withdrew from the case when he was considering a job offer from the law firm Sidley & Austin, Searle's Chicago-based law firm, a job he later took. The investigation was delayed and eventually the statute of limitations on the charges against Searle expired and a grand jury was never convened. Incredibly convenient. In 1977 and 1978, an FDA task force and a panel of academic pathologists reviewed 15 aspartame studies by Searle, and concluded that there were major lapses in quality control and resulting inconsistencies. Ralph G. Walton, a psychiatrist at Northeastern Ohio Universities College of Medicine, stated in a self-published 1996 analysis of aspartame research that industry-funded studies found no safety concerns while 84 of 92 independent studies did identify safety concerns. You observe the FDA's conclusions as being final despite the obvious controversies and conflicts of interest surrounding it, while you ignore the 84 of 92 independent studies. Stoutcobsofthecorn (talk) 06:31, 16 July 2022 (UTC) You're speaking about 1978!!! In 2022 aspartame is one of the best medically studied substances. I would bet it is more studied than aspirin and paracetamol. And that is precisely due to the libelous claims made by sugar peddlers. So, yeah, the US and EU authorities have reacted to the bad press by advancing research. And there's nothing wrong with saccharine or cyclamate, either. These got smeared by the sugar lobby. tgeorgescu (talk) 09:37, 16 July 2022 (UTC) What a pivot. Critics of aspartame aren't sugar lobbyists. "84 of 92 independent studies" places an emphasis on independent, i.e. studies without a conflict of interest. This means studies performed neither by the peddlers of aspartame nor their rivals in the market. In any case we can walk and chew gum at the same time by recognizing aspartame as carcinogenic (through metabolism into formaldehyde) and sugar as causing diabetes and many other problems. The discussion in this talk section isn't whether aspartame is better than sugar but whether it's safe, period. I cannot speak for Stoutcobsofthecorn, but I neither advocate consuming aspartame nor excessive amounts of sugar, especially high fructose corn syrup (which is, curiously, legal in the USA, where food regulations are relaxed but illegal in many other places). Also none of this pivoting the conversation away from the article subject (aspartame) and towards the sugar lobby undoes the obvious conflicts of interest involved in the FDA approval of aspartame. As FullerFalafelLover pointed out at the top, G.D. Searle hired Rumsfeld to handle the aspartame approval difficulties as a “legal problem rather than a scientific problem.” Seems like it warrants more than a passing note. Even the article on aspartame controversy doesn't mention Rumsfeld except in the source list. NotYourSugarDaddy (talk) 01:04, 17 July 2022 (UTC) As a reminder, WP's stanards are WP:RS and WP:SYNTH. We as editors are not permitted to speculate or do our own analysis or trace biochemical pathways to make a conclusion that is even the teeniest bit beyond what high-quality reliable published sources say. DMacks (talk) 04:13, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

should this article be updated with information published after 2017?

For example, https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35324894/ 76.69.71.168 (talk) 22:18, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

I was thinking the same thing - there seem to be a number of newer studies and reviews that point to potential harmful effects of aspartame, and it seems appropriate that we would add them to this article.

Here are a few more that I found from a quick search on pubmed:

- https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33845854/

- https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34200310/

- https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28198207/

In addition, maybe the article should mention the IARC's announcement of its 2023 investigation into the potential carcinogenic effects of aspartame.

It seems to me that it would be in the public's (i.e. Wikipedia reader's) best interest if this article described the scientific evidence both for and against aspartame's safety, rather than the seemingly false description that there is complete consensus that it's safe, so that they can take precautionary measures if they are sufficiently risk-averse (i.e. not consuming an excess amount of aspartame containing foods and drinks).

I would love to hear some other people's thoughts on this, especially medical doctors. ThePlug111 (talk) 16:51, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Despite the seemingly increased attention and apparent "evidence" of increased cancer risk, this is a decades-long theme in lab research where the aspartame doses used in research far exceed anything in a food or beverage product. There are many examples of artificial and natural substances causing diseases in lab animals when extraordinary high doses are tested.

The sources provided in this thread are primary research and speculation, i.e., not WP:MEDSCI reviews, clinical organization guidelines, government safety assessments, and scientific consensus reached among academic organizations that carry the real weight on food additives. In the article, we have sources from the US FDA, European Food Safety Authority, UK Food Standards Agency, Australian and Canadian food safety agencies, and the US National Cancer Institute all having published reports over the past decade indicating that aspartame amounts used to sweeten food products are safe. As these agencies have the responsibility of assuring food safety and reporting results to the public, we should rely on them - that positions haven't changed for a few years does not mean their lack of attention, but rather that there has been no evidence to change their positions. Zefr (talk) 17:16, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Unable to edit a typo

In the methanol section the phrase "attention deficit hyperactivity disorder" appears to be mistakenky inserted between "25" and "times" Sbcraker (talk) 05:14, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

 Done Thanks for noticing and reporting it! DMacks (talk) 06:17, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Aspartame and cancer risk

A new large cohort has identified a link between artificial sweeteners (especially aspartame and acesulfame-K) and increased cancer risk. Please update that section and the lead summary. Thanks. https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.1003950 Malariaboy (talk) 21:45, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

If my understanding is correct, I believe this is a primary source per WP:MEDRS and doesn't merit mention. The findings also were barely significant (bottom of the HR 95% CI at 1.03 overall representing like 40 cancer cases out of tens of thousands of consumers), and it showed consumers of a little bit of the sweeteners having higher cancer incidence rates than the high consumers. VQuakr (talk) 22:47, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

How to pronounce?

Does this word have 3 syllables? How is it pronounced? E-skeuomorph (talk) 00:49, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Do a Google search for "Aspartame pronounce" (without the quotes) and you'll find out. It's three syllables. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 01:30, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Headaches

"other reviews have noted conflicting studies about headaches" but this study cited confirms certain groups of people do benefit from avoiding aspartame as a trigger for headaches. What is written here is not related to what the citation says. Theres insane conflict of interest on this page, someone here is financially benefitting. 2601:3C1:4100:1BC4:556C:9908:6350:AB33 (talk) 05:05, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

I made this edit to state simply that there is no evidence for a cause-and-effect action of aspartame inducing headaches, but as that one source says, some people may be sensitive to it. Next time, be WP:BOLD and make the edit yourself.

The aspartame article has 408 editors watching the page. Anyone visiting the page can edit it. I don't see why an accusation of vague COI and financial benefit is logical or constructive. The article is up to date and supported by 85 sources. If you have new evidence to add, edit. Zefr (talk) 06:08, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

"considering classifying as possibly carcinogenic"

Hi @Zefr:, could you please explain this edit? It doesn't involve or speculate about the future. Chamaemelum (talk) 22:40, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

The source is not WHO and presents no evidence from the WHO review. It is an unreliable news source generated by AI collection. Just wait until the WHO report is published in 2 weeks. Zefr (talk) 23:08, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

We could just cite the WHO directly instead. Would this help make the edit worthy of the inclusion? (I originally cited the Ground News link as a tertiary source as it aggregated 81 other sources reporting on it; I wasn't intending to refer to the AI part.)

See the sources from the WHO here, here/here, and in passing here. The disputed content does not claim to present evidence from the WHO review, it only says that the WHO is considering re-classifying aspartame's hazard assessment. This is present, reliable, notable, and backed up by the WHO's own publications. Chamaemelum (talk) 23:24, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Aspartame industry funded research & review bias

list of conflicts of interest in secondary reviews, and other sources of bias

Note: this was previously on the page, but I am copying it below so we can be cognizant of the sources which are potentially biased. "A 1999 review of the role of industry funding and study outcome found that 100% of industry-funded studies reviewed attested the safety of aspartame whereas 92% of the independently funded research identified a problem. RG Walton: Survey of aspartame studies: correlation of outcome and funding sources A 2016 systematic review of reviews analyzing the relationship between research outcome and risk of bias of the effects of artificially sweetened beverage on weight outcome found that 3/4 of the reviews sponsered by artifically sweetened beverage industry reported favorable results while only 1 out of 23 non-industry funded reviews found favorable results. All industry funded reviews found favorable conclusions while only 15 out of 23 reviews of non-industry funded reviews had favorable conclusions. In 42% (13/31) authors’ financial conflicts of interest were not disclosed. Reviews performed by authors that had a financial conflict of interest with the food industry (disclosed in the article or not) were more likely to have favorable conclusions (18/22) than reviews performed by authors without conflicts of interest (4/9). Mandrioli et al. 2016: Relationship between Research Outcomes and Risk of Bias, Study Sponsorship, and Author Financial Conflicts of Interest in Reviews of the Effects of Artificially Sweetened Beverages on Weight Outcomes: A Systematic Review of Reviews" A 2005 report in The Guardian stated that a 1996 review of aspartame research found that every single industry-funded study found aspartame safe, but 92% of independent studies identified one or more problems with its safety. Also in 2005, the BMJ published a letter that noted that "the glaring disparity in results from industry funded and independently funded research is clearly of considerable concern." Chamaemelum (talk) 05:30, 2 July 2023 (UTC) This is relevant and I would support reinsertion. Cdh1001 (talk) 08:31, 2 July 2023 (UTC) Correlation does not imply causation. Do you understand that many people switch to diet drinks precisely because they got overweight or obese? tgeorgescu (talk) 12:32, 2 July 2023 (UTC) Yeah, aspartame absolutely does not cause obesity. Chamaemelum (talk) 20:30, 2 July 2023 (UTC) While assuming that the scientific debate thereupon has ended is too strong a claim, mere correlations are not evidence that it does. tgeorgescu (talk) 21:45, 2 July 2023 (UTC) So would I. It is suspicious it has been removed in the first place. 2001:999:78C:C86C:E419:E2E:848B:2A17 (talk) 04:38, 3 July 2023 (UTC) View figure Review of aspartame reviews: Risk of bias summary: review authors' judgements about each risk of bias item for each included study. Review of bias of various aspartame reviews. May be useful in deciding which sources to include here. Chamaemelum (talk) 05:33, 3 July 2023 (UTC) You do not make the WP:RULES. The rules are WP:MEDRS, and that's it. tgeorgescu (talk) 06:25, 3 July 2023 (UTC) Yes, I know. I'm posting this here because it may be useful in assessing which reviews to include for future editors, not because I'm trying to make a rule. Chamaemelum (talk) 06:30, 3 July 2023 (UTC) We should only include reviews indexed for MEDLINE. tgeorgescu (talk) 08:35, 3 July 2023 (UTC) Yes, I agree. (And the review of reviews is indexed by Medline. Of course, there are more factors to take into account when evaluating reviews, e.g. Cochrane.) Chamaemelum (talk) 08:44, 3 July 2023 (UTC) The 1999 review fails WP:MEDDATE. The 2016 review is a potentially appropriate source. Funding bias mentions a different study coming to the same conclusion. WhatamIdoing (talk) 10:04, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Rodent studies

Rodent studies are unreliable and should not be cited on the article. The following text should be removed "scholars have drawn causal links between aspartame and cancer in rodents. However, a meta-analysis found no such link in rodents". This is not clinical data. This is weak evidence and per WP:MEDANIMAL we do not need to cite animal studies for biomedical claims regarding humans. Psychologist Guy (talk) 00:40, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

The disputed edit does not state or imply that the findings from rodent studies directly translate to humans. The results of rodent studies are presented as findings within their own context, without implying that these effects have been proven to occur in humans. It edit goes on to state that a meta-analysis found no such link in rodents. As per your link, rodent studies are invaluable for generating hypotheses and determining mechanistic pathways, which is important here as it is the only way to discuss causality. If there were a pharmaceutical that could be tested in humans, that would be a different story. Chamaemelum (talk) 02:36, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

I agree with @Psychologist Guy that this should be removed. Rodent studies are almost never WP:DUE except for articles about substances in pre-clinical development (which are themselves rarely WP:Notable). WhatamIdoing (talk) 09:59, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

I also agree that they should be moved, as there is an ample amount of research in humans that could be used instead. (So there is no need to include the rodent studies.) Chamaemelum (talk) 16:16, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Also, it may be of note that the Aspartame in other languages mention the rodent studies, sometimes extensively. Chamaemelum (talk) 02:45, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Indeed.

Besides, the WHO decision is apparently partly based on a recent, very large population-based study: https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.1003950.

See also https://www.news-medical.net/news/20230629/WHO-to-declare-artificial-sweetener-aspartame-as-possible-carcinogen.aspx. 2001:999:78C:C86C:E419:E2E:848B:2A17 (talk) 05:52, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Yes. About 100 notable and unique news sources have reported on it. Chamaemelum (talk) 05:56, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Washington Post article inclusion

I think this article should be cited somewhere: https://web.archive.org/web/20230622224834/https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/06/22/aspartame-diet-drink-health-risks-who/

"Two World Health Organization working groups are in the process of reviewing the safety of aspartame. The International Agency for Research on Cancer, or IARC, just concluded a meeting in France to assess the potential carcinogenic effect of the sweetener. And the organization’s Joint Organization Expert Committee on Food Additives, known as JECFA, meets June 27 to July 6 to update its risk assessment of aspartame, including reviewing how much can be safely consumed."

The article also mentions the France observational study and the rat studies.

"Here’s why they think [that the WHO will reclassify aspartame]: In May, the WHO released new recommendations advising against using non-sugar sweeteners to control weight, citing potential health risks including an increased risk of Type 2 diabetes, cardiovascular diseases and early death in adults. They listed common sweeteners such as... aspartame... as ones to avoid."

We can discuss what parts to include and how to phrase it, but it's clearly worth mentioning. Recall that stating that the WHO is in process of reviewing the safety of aspartame is not a biomedical claim. Chamaemelum (talk) 20:02, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

"..and has signaled that it may issue new warnings.." "The result of both evaluations will be announced on July 14, with many in the nutrition world predicting the WHO will convey new concerns about the sweetener."

Idk, sounds lite crystal to me. How about revisiting the topic in 11 days? Draken Bowser (talk) 20:49, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, but I'm not proposing inclusion of the "signaled that it may issue new warnings" part, only the fact that they are considering a reclassification: no speculation. Chamaemelum (talk) 20:52, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

I view science as an enduring reassessment, the fact that something is being reconsidered has no lasting (encyclopedic) value until after-the-fact. Once the results are in, there will be something of value to publish. Draken Bowser (talk) 22:00, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

It is a notable event, covered by major reliable media outlets. Wikipedia generally includes notable current events as they are relevant to the topic at hand (as opposed to being soley for news purposes). Chamaemelum (talk) 22:17, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

This is not an article about "events". tgeorgescu (talk) 13:33, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Sure it is. It was approved by the US FDA in 1981 – an event. JECFA, EFSA, and the FDA determined ADIs – three events. EFSA released a report in 2013 – an event. It was discovered in 1965 by James M. Schlatter – an event. The bottom quarter of the article is almost entirely about events. WhatamIdoing (talk) 08:10, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Of course. All of them important events that we have reported on after the fact. Draken Bowser (talk) 09:39, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

It is after the fact. They've already considered it. The event of them considering and deciding the reclassification occurred and is over. Even if it wasn't, or if you're referring to specifically the release of embargo of the decision as opposed to the decision itself, if the dog aliens released sources (dog alien armysources) saying they were planning to remove all cats from Earth, there's nothing wrong with having that in an article on "Cats". Apologies for the analogy. Chamaemelum (talk) 09:46, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

And just because an article is not strictly about events of course has nothing to do with if an event is relevant to the subject. Reductio ad absurdum: the article on "cats" is not about events. However, if all cats on Earth died suddenly due to an alien dog invasion, that would be relevant to include on the page. Therefore if an article is not about events has nothing to do with if an event should be included. Chamaemelum (talk) 08:16, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm going to suggest WP:WAITing. It's really not worth risking a topic ban for something that will sort itself out in less than 2 weeks—if the reports are accurate. <aside>As there are much more competent medical editors than I, I'm not planning on adding anything to the article even after the 14th.</aside> Little pob (talk) 13:57, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Tags

I think we all agree that: There is an ongoing dispute over the neutrality of this article, particularly in regard to potential negative effects of aspartame and the WHO's consideration of hazard reclassification.

Because of the missing content, perspective in this article may not include all significant viewpoints. Particularly, the minority scientific viewpoint that aspartame may be harmful.

I would like to add tags to this effect. Chamaemelum (talk) 05:19, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

This use of tags is borderline vandalism and you have been warned about your disruptive behavior.

The article is well-edited and sourced, depending mainly on the sources that matter – the national regulatory agencies for food safety. The WHO committee will not be the final word on aspartame and cancer risk, as abundant contrary national agency guidelines and reviews exist. The national agencies will have their own positions and sources to integrate the information. Contrary to one statement above that regulatory agencies are too slow in response to changing guidelines, the opposite applies when food safety for such a widely used ingredient is at stake. Zefr (talk) 05:52, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Have you seen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:POV#When_to_remove?

You may remove this template whenever any one of the following is true:

1. There is consensus on the talkpage or the NPOV Noticeboard that the issue has been resolved.
2. It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given.
3. In the absence of any discussion, or if the discussion has become dormant.

@Zefr: Which one of the above are you claiming to be true? Chamaemelum (talk) 06:26, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Since Zefr is not disputing these points, the tag will be added back until consensus is reached on one of the three points. Chamaemelum (talk) 07:54, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Zefr has said there is "no consensus", apparently indicating that the tag should remain under criterion 1, but believing that the tag should be removed, reverting it again. As Zefr has not disputed any of these 3 reasons on the talk page or elsewhere, the tag should remain. Chamaemelum (talk) 16:03, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

You're essentially reading policy line by line to subvert established process, just like you were reading NOTNEWS line by line to justify including a snippet on upcoming events. Overemphasis on procedure over principles can be disruptive, and wikipedia is not a bureaucracy. You can't add a maintenance-tag because you feel the article is biased, there must be an articulable reason. So far your explicit concerns have been rejected on this talk page, i.e. there is consensus not to post that tag in article space. So it is removed. Draken Bowser (talk) 16:30, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

@Draken Bowser The articulated reasons are 1. lack of coverage of the fact that the WHO, in the past, considered aspartame for possible hazard reclassification, and 2. the systemic deletion of well-sourced, minority but not fringe viewpoints from the page when those viewpoints are critical of aspartame. It's telling that the NPOV tag was reverted even when a Cadbury employee was cited as authoritative fact on aspartame's health effects.

There is not consensus that the tag is unwarranted as multiple editors agree and disagree: there is an ongoing discussion. The concerns brought up by editors have not been addressed and there is certainly no consensus.

The bar for a NPOV tag is intentionally low. There only needs to be an ongoing discussion, which this comment and other editors comments are evidence of. Chamaemelum (talk) 17:16, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

There is no consensus for the tag. There is a discussion, and as long as the discussion is moving along, we don't need to hang a badge of shame on the article. Attempts to include fringe POV are not a legitimate matter worth using such a tag. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 17:19, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

@Valjean The fact that the discussion is moving along is not relevant to the inclusion of the tag. Chamaemelum (talk) 17:23, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

The fact that there is no consensus trumps practically everything here, in this case the interpretation of how to use tags. See the comment above that starts "You're essentially reading policy line by line to subvert established process,..." The established process, regardless of your reading of how to use tags, is that we don't usually allow a badge of shame to blemish the article as long as the discussion is moving forward. In cases like this, where an editor's personal desires and interpretations are contrary to the general trend of mainstream RS, we are even less likely to allow such a tag. So consensus trumps your wishes, and your edit warring over it will only get you in trouble as edit warring is always wrong, no matter how right you might be. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 20:27, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Note: I've realized that a Cadbury employee's writing is still in the article as it was added back. Acting like the NPOV tag is totally unwarranted when a candy manufacturer is cited to make matter-of-fact health claims on the article is an obvious issue pertaining to NPOV. Chamaemelum (talk) 17:34, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

There is no NPOV dispute between the FDA and the lunatic fringe. tgeorgescu (talk) 18:20, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Chamaemelum seems to be ignoring scientific consensus on multiple articles related to diet or nutrition. Their claim about industry funding is interesting because the same user added unreliable content on the red meat article that downplays red meat and cancer risk, content that was funded by the beef industry. If the user's behaviour gets any worse I can see an ANI case being filed. Psychologist Guy (talk) 18:30, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

@Psychologist Guy I didn't know about the beef industry connection. I support reverting that part of my edits. Additionally, being an employee and the only author is a larger COI than having different research partially funded for a single though lead employed scientist out of over a dozen on the panel. To disagree with my edits is fine (I enjoy that, it helps improve my edits like removing the beef industry COI), but let's not imply that they're so abnormally unreasonable as to warrant ANI. Chamaemelum (talk) 22:53, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

@Tgeorgescu Alternative medicine is the lunatic fringe. The WHO website, however, is not. I don't believe aspartame causes cancer and I strongly believe the article should reflect that fact. Chamaemelum (talk) 22:43, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Looks like other editors have raised similar concerns in the past:

To be honest, I thought the same thing (and going through the rest of these, this ideas was brought up many times): [1] [2][3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11][12][13][14][15][16][17]

I did not include in the above links the countless talk page edits that were arguing for the inclusion of health risks, only some of the ones which explicitly mentioned bias/non-neutral point of view. This more than indicates that there is a dispute over the neutrality of this article. The tag only indicates that the neutrality is disputed, not that it is confirmed to be non-neutral. Chamaemelum (talk) 06:12, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

I fully concur with Zefr. What Chamaemelum is trying to do is strange, also referring to obsolete discussion topics to prove his POV (WP:POINT). --Julius Senegal (talk) 12:47, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Apologies if it seemed disruptive. I thought they were relevant, even if obsolete, because they showed other readers or editors also saw potential POV issues. I understand some of them may be too old and no longer relevant. Chamaemelum (talk) 20:34, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

I completely agree with Chamaemelum and support the very reasonable and fact-based addition they suggest, which would make the article more up-to-date and appear less biased.

Threatening them with accusations of disruptive behaviour for this seems to me to be bullying and just plain weird, assuming we are all impartial here and aim for reliable information being provided in Wikipedia. 2001:999:78C:C86C:E419:E2E:848B:2A17 (talk) 04:32, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand the disruptive behaviour statements either, but what's important is making sure we have a good article. I think that we can at least agree that there is no consensus on the talkpage the issue has been resolved, that it is clear what the neutrality issue is, and that there is ongoing discussion. For this reason, the NPOV tag is definitely warranted. Chamaemelum (talk) 04:35, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Ofc a "random" IP appears, funny.

No, it is not warrented, and also your arguemnt is highly flawed: Maybe in the past this or that was issued, but it has been adressed. To conclude that because sth was issued in the past justifies that the article is now not neutral is simply wrong. --Julius Senegal (talk) 06:22, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

@Julius Senegal: By "Ofc a "random" IP appears, funny", are you implying that the IP editor, located in a different continent than I am, is me? I am not arguing that the NPOV tag should be added because of the past. I am adding it because right now, there is a dispute on the neutrality of the article, which is taking place right now. Chamaemelum (talk) 06:27, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

When one side has WP:MEDRS and their opponents don't, it is not a WP:NPOV dispute, but people who lack WP:CIR arguing in vain. tgeorgescu (talk) 08:33, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

If there is a dispute, there is a dispute. I am disputing NPOV right now. There does not need to be proven NPOV for there to be an NPOV dispute. (Your link seems to say that adding the WHO information on a notable current event does not fall under biomedical information, and the WHO website is reliable enough for the claim.) Chamaemelum (talk) 08:40, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

There is a severe mismatch between your claims (namely, aspartame is healthy) and your actions (disputing NPOV), tgeorgescu (talk) 10:11, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

That's besides the point. The NPOV tag does not require you to think the reasoning for the dispute is valid. However, I can believe those two things at once: if aspartame has an 80% chance of being safe, but there is an excluded reasonable view held by some scientists that it is likely not safe / excluded notable events which suggest the possibility of aspartame not being completely safe, then I would both believe that the article has a non-neutral point of view, excluding relevant viewpoints, and that aspartame is safe. Chamaemelum (talk) 16:43, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

If there is merely a dispute between mainstream science and fringe since, the article should not be tagged. And, indeed, my two cents are that the condemnation of aspartame lies between full-blown paranoia and a smear campaign by the sugar industry. tgeorgescu (talk) 16:47, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

It's not a fringe view; it's a substantial minority view and a noteworthy event. Chamaemelum (talk) 17:39, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Chamaemelum is correct: Articles can be tagged during actual, active discussions about any editor's individual concern about possible POV problems, even if some other editors don't believe the dispute is valid or believe that the outcome is a foregone conclusion. WhatamIdoing (talk) 08:04, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm posting from a "random IP address" because a) I'm too busy with my PhD and whatever life there is beyond that to study the current editing rules, which is why I don't have a profile; and b) as a native Finnish person -- who is currently in Finland, btw, and unaware of where the rest of you are -- my English skills are not native-level, and any contribution by me ought to be language-checked, if I were to suggest edits -- which I will not do also because they would most likely be rejected, judging from the above discussion. 2001:999:78C:C86C:E419:E2E:848B:2A17 (talk) 11:02, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Note: A source from an author who worked at Cadbury at the time of publishing was used heavily throughout the article at the time of my original POV tag. I've removed that source, but we have more work to ensure neutral POV. Chamaemelum (talk) 08:06, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Even biased sources may be WP:CITEd for non-self-serving points. tgeorgescu (talk) 08:14, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Good point. I will add back the non-self serving (i.e. industry info) while keeping the self-serving deleted. Chamaemelum (talk) 08:16, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Possibly Carcinogenic

I've just learned that Aspartame is set to be classified as possibly carcenogenic: https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/whos-cancer-research-agency-say-aspartame-sweetener-possible-carcinogen-sources-2023-06-29/

I have no experience editing articles of this size though, so figured I'd post this here and let someone with more experience make the actual edits. 212.82.65.113 (talk) 09:30, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

See edits by Zefr he has covered this per WP:NOTNEWS to why news sources are not reliable for this. If the World Health Organization (WHO) lists Aspartame on their website as a possible carcinogen and publishes their review then that is a good medical source, until then it is hearsay from news websites and not reliable information. The news websites such as this one [18] and this [19] are saying that WHO will be publishing their findings next month. It's worth waiting until they have published their findings. We should not be linking to news websites about this. Wait until the WHO review is published. Psychologist Guy (talk) 17:14, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Yup, it's carcinogenic in very high doses. You have to drink 1000 Coca Cola cans every day so that it becomes carcinogenic. Source: prof. dr. Martijn B. Katan.

https://www.mkatan.nl/nrc-columns/490-22-06-2013-zoete-verhaaltjes

Translation: You may drink each day of your life 17 liters expired diet soft drink without getting a toxic quantity of diketopiperazine. tgeorgescu (talk) 17:31, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Why does wikipedia have an extensive list of reliable sources if you're going to completely ignore them when what they report is something you don't like? It seems to me that there is some clear bias against the inclusion. Dozens of reliable sources, by wikipedia's own definition and list, have reported on this. There is no sensible reason to not include the reporting (with attribution of course). I have nothing for or against aspartame, in fact i'm gonna keep drinking that garbage, as a famous someone might say, but to completely refuse to add the information, even when it's being reported by a plethora of reliable sources is frankly comical.

Not only that but some people here have already started considering moving the goalpost even further by saying that even if the WHO classifies it we should still wait for national agencies to review the classification, which as we all know is a stalling tactic as it takes years if not decades to do a proper review.

There is plenty of precedent for the inclusion of leaks by reliable sources on the relevant wikipedia page, a recent example that comes to mind is the overturning of Roe v. Wade leak.

I have yet to see a reasonable argument as to why Reuter's reporting should not be considered reliable, wikipedia should never use primary sources, such as the WHO, it should rely on secondary sources as much as possible. We have dozens of secondary sources reporting on this. And i have not found a single reliable source that disputes Reuters' claims, all they (rightfully) say is that it is a leak and not yet officially announced.

tl;dr if you have any reliable sources that dispute Reuters' reporting please provide them. Until then we should go with what reliable secondary sources are saying today, not what primary sources said 13 years ago. 82.53.176.53 (talk) 13:18, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

The World Health Organization is not a primary source. Psychologist Guy (talk) 14:41, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

WP:RS doesn't quite cut it for WP:biomedical information; we need to follow WP:MEDRS. Best we could say at the moment is it's being reported that a mid-July update of the IARC group 2B list will add aspartame as "possibly carcinogenic" agent. Little pob (talk) 15:25, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

I agree with Little pob that we should say that a mid-July update of the IARC group 2B list will add aspartame as "possibly carcinogenic" agent. Chamaemelum (talk) 17:05, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Great; I hope and suppose that somebody will.

I just read about the WHO decision in the Finnish public broadcasting company's (Yle) news site and came here to find more info.

The English article seems to be very positive about the safety of aspartame as and omits research discussed, for example, in the Finnish, German, French, and Spanish articles which supports opposite claims, for example, with regard to neurotoxicity and carcinogenity.

Someone should edit the English article to cover some of this discussion as well; as it is now, it seems biased and all but reliable. 2001:999:78C:C86C:E419:E2E:848B:2A17 (talk) 20:46, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Further, the English article sets out to disprove some claims about possible health risks, but does not state where these claims arise from, which gives the impression that some important information is witheld.

Note - the English article adheres mainly to the status of safety review by national regulatory agencies responsible for the safe use of food ingredients. This includes "the Finnish, German, French, and Spanish" agencies which rely on the reassessment of aspartame safety by EFSA in 2013, stating "The Panel concluded that aspartame was not of safety concern at the current aspartame exposure estimates or at the ADI of 40 mg/kg bw/day." Zefr (talk) 03:57, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

In addition, someone should replace the short and obscure note on water quality with a proper discussion on the environmental effects of aspartame. 2001:999:78C:C86C:E419:E2E:848B:2A17 (talk) 21:01, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, this place is unfit for paranoid conspiracy theories. tgeorgescu (talk) 21:19, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

I don't think the IP editor's recommendations are so far as "paranoid conspiracy theories." (Edit: it appears there was some reverted talk page edit--not sure what comments refer to.) Chamaemelum (talk) 23:20, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Good luck. Regrettably there appears to be a determined effort by one or two mods to prevent discussion of this, for whatever reason. Cdh1001 (talk) 23:44, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Assuming the mods are not acting in bad faith, it could be they are waiting on the official findings "JECFA, the WHO committee on additives, is also reviewing aspartame use this year. Its meeting began at the end of June and it is due to announce its findings on the same day that the IARC makes public its decision – on July 14 [2023]." https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/whos-cancer-research-agency-say-aspartame-sweetener-possible-carcinogen-sources-2023-06-29/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.172.20.232 (talk) 23:52, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Why was my edit reverted, tgeorgescu? There are multiple peer-reviewed papers showing carginogenic action in laboratory animals, which is pertinent to this article. The edit was factual, relevant and cited the source. Why was it reverted? User:cdh1001 — Preceding undated comment added 23:32, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Well, there are also papers finding no effect. Should we include those too? Chamaemelum (talk) 23:58, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Aspartame is definitely not carcinogenic at the quantities one ingests from diet soft drinks. But if you raise the dosage hundreds of times, it becomes carcinogenic. tgeorgescu (talk) 00:18, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm not even sure that it's carcinogenic at high doses. However, the rat studies included doses close to human consumption. Chamaemelum (talk) 00:20, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Even water becomes a poison if one drinks too much of it. tgeorgescu (talk) 00:22, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Lol, true. (Though cancer is different than poisoning.) Chamaemelum (talk) 00:29, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Expert reaction found here [20]. Psychologist Guy (talk) 00:35, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

My edit aligns with the expert reaction:

“The ”possibly carcinogenic to humans” category... includes things such as aloe vera extract and bracken fern, but also diesel fuel and HIV." "Current evidence is that it is safe." I think it is notable to put that the WHO is at least "considering" classifying it, while maintaining that current evidence suggests that it is safe. I don't even agree with the WHO, but their classification is relevant. The fact that they are considering it is factual, widely reported, notable, and is not attempting to predict the future. Chamaemelum (talk) 02:41, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

The news to watch over the coming months will be not so much the WHO position, but rather the 100+ national regulatory agencies responsible for assuring safety of aspartame in the food supply. As of 30 May 2023, the FDA has not changed their assessment that aspartame is safe when consumed in typical amounts and even to extraordinary levels most people would never approach (up to 75 packets per day). Other major food safety regulators will likely make announcements about safety after release of the WHO statement scheduled for 14 July. Zefr (talk) 03:44, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

I agree. I support continuing to categorize it as safe, while also mentioning the WHO's classification and their reasoning. The WHO's classification as "possible" is purposefully epistemologically weak. Chamaemelum (talk) 04:46, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Well, I support citing the FDA, but also including research that has arrived at opposing conclusions; for a balanced review. Especially if cdh1001 has already written on this, there is no reason to omit this.

Currently, the article gives a strong impression that research has been unanimous in disputing adverse health effects related to neurological and carcinogenic effects, which is simply not true.

Did I understand correctly that tgeorgescu is a moderator? They seem very opinionated for the job.

For the environmental effects off artificial sweeteners, see e.g. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8060115/.

For a recent peer-reviewed article with evidence for carcinogenicity, see https://ehjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12940-021-00725-y.

Not that I didn't suppose my comment will be overlooked if the moderators are as biased as one might conclude. 2001:999:78C:C86C:E419:E2E:848B:2A17 (talk) 05:28, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

I don't know about the moderator status of people but it doesn't matter I hope. I agree that the article represents the statement as fact when there are instead at least other perspectives, notable even if minor. Chamaemelum (talk) 05:47, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Yes, we should - and the article already does so. Cdh1001 (talk) 08:32, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

I don't understand this discussion at all. Currently IARC does not list aspartame in one of the cancerogenic categories, so we have to wait anyway what will happen (WP:CRYSTAL and WP:THEREISNORUSH).

Then-after we can debate how stupid IARC's assessments are. --Julius Senegal (talk) 16:53, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

You're right if the disputed content was "aspartame is carcinogenic" or "aspartame will be/is classified by the WHO as carcinogenic." However, I am proposing "the WHO is considering classifying aspartame is possibly carcinogenic", which is happening currenty. Chamaemelum (talk) 17:04, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

I wrote "In June 2023, Reuters said that the International Agency for Research on Cancer would list aspartame as a "possibly carcinogenic to humans" on July 14." with the associated Reuters source; I think that helps maintain exactly what's going on vis a vis the IARC's decision. If we wanted to include a short thing on what "possibly carcinogenic to humans" means, we could do that also, but I don't think WP:NOTNEWS or WP:CRYSTAL applies here. TypistMonkey (talk) 02:35, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

I support this addition. You could optionally just say that they are considering reclassifying it, and you would be able to link the WHO itself as a source as well. Chamaemelum (talk) 02:46, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Concerning this revert, 1) there are not mulitple issues, just one where a news release is unjustifiably used as a WP:MEDRS source. Just wait for the WHO report scheduled for mid-July, then we can write about it in the article;

2) this is not a WP:NPOV matter, but rather one of jumping to a conclusion before the evidence is published;

3) there is no consensus among the talk page discussants about the WHO cancer news. Why is there debate about an announcement, with no WHO report yet published? At least 5 editors here and in article edits have backed this.

4) WHO's committee will have one voice in the consideration of whether aspartame is carcinogenic. If the science is adopted, there will be modifications in guidance by multiple national regulatory agencies. The FDA, as one example, constantly monitors emerging science and modifies guidance, as it would do for prescription drugs. Regulatory authorities for food safety across many countries would be the gold-standard references for whether aspartame consumed in typical amounts is carcinogenic. Give the process its due time. Zefr (talk) 05:27, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

1) I've already explained (which you saw) that the tags are not related to the widespread coverage. Instead, it is due to the systemic lack of due alternate views on the effects of aspartame, which include the WHO's own website, the news reports, and various studies.

2) I've previously explained (see above) how the proposed edits do not mention any conclusion: they simply state that a reclassification is being considered.

3) Again, not just the news sources are relevant here. See the sources from the WHO here, here/here, and in passing here. I would not suggest counting the editors who support or don't support adding critical views of aspartame. Also, editors backing removal of "aspartame possibly causes cancer" is very different from editors backing removal of "the WHO is current considering reclassifying aspartame's carcinogen status".

4) The simple inclusion of a notable and sizable minority view does not require universal agreement from every regulatory agency. Let's let the article include all reliable, notable perspectives. Chamaemelum (talk) 05:41, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

"reliable, notable perspectives" would be represented in a WP:MEDRS source. The article can have them - in 2 weeks when the report is published in Lancet Oncology. Zefr (talk) 06:10, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

We're stating the fact that the WHO is considering reclassifying aspartame as "possibly carcinogenic." Reuters is a reliable source, and it has reported that the WHO is considering this reclassification. This is a matter of fact, not a medical claim. We should not undermine the importance of the WHO's considerations. The WHO is the foremost international authority on health. Their assessments carry substantial weight and their reclassification consideration is worth mentioning. The proposed addition doesn't favor one point of view over another; instead, it provides readers with a broader perspective on the ongoing discussions around aspartame's safety. Chamaemelum (talk) 06:19, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

WP:NOTNEWS, WP:LISTEN. Zefr (talk) 06:28, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

We can't argue or wordsmith our way out of established policy on acceptable sourcing for biomedical claims. Can we please wait for a proper source to be published? Draken Bowser (talk) 06:41, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

A proper source on the fact that the WHO is considering reclassifying aspartame is published. A proper source that aspartame is possibly carcinogenic is not published. Do you mean that the latter is not published, so shouldn't be included, and the former, while published (on the WHO website, not Reuters), shouldn't be included because it isn't noticeable or relevant enough? (Genuine question to make sure I understand.) I completely agree that non-published claims, such as aspartame possibly causing cancer, should not be included. Chamaemelum (talk) 06:48, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

It is not about relevance or whether it is noticeable. It is a biomedical claim and MEDRS-sourcing is the bar, no other source will suffice. Draken Bowser (talk) 07:03, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Which one is a biomedical claim? The former (aspartame is possibly carcinogenic/WHO is planning to classify) or the latter (WHO is current considering reclassifying)? Thanks. Chamaemelum (talk) 07:12, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

I find that the actual contents of WP:NOTNEWS do not really support exclusion of "current and up-to-date information"; instead, it says that "including information on recent developments is sometimes appropriate". WhatamIdoing (talk) 11:24, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

I think it would be appropriate to mention the certain facts, namely that a review will be happening. Just mentioning this fact (which is an "event", not Wikipedia:Biomedical information) will (a) help readers understand what's really going on (in case, e.g., anyone thought that the scientific work had already been completed) and (b) reduce the risk of edit warring over this article. WhatamIdoing (talk) 11:22, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

I would even omit this at all. This is clearly WP:NOTNEWS or WP:CRYSTAL, yes, maybe they do it, maybe the do it "in the future", maybe nothing happens - we simply don't know that.

There is reviews of everything anywhere - but this is not known knowledge.

But ofc we can discucss until the event comes up around the corner, if you have the time. --Julius Senegal (talk) 12:42, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

@Julius Senegal, have you read the actual text of WP:NOTNEWS? That section of the policy says that a Wikipedia article should not be a news article. It does not say anything even remotely against Wikipedia including information about recent news events. I know Wikipedia editors often feel rushed, and that Wikipedia:Nobody reads the directions, but it's important to look past the WP:UPPERCASE to see what the policy actually says. WhatamIdoing (talk) 09:55, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

I agree with this. I'm not going to do anything if everyone else thinks it doesn't make the page better, but my edits were inspired by the trend of confused readers coming to this page wondering why it doesn't mention the current evidence, and then trying to be helpful by adding it, and then getting reverted. There are probably many more confused readers who just think "huh, I guess I can't learn more about this here", and walk away without editing. Chamaemelum (talk) 20:38, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

What we assume is irrelevant. For instance, I think that many readers are glad not to have hundreds of intentions listed in the article. Btw, who would update all possible speculations?

This project is an encyclopaedia reflecting known knowledge. --Julius Senegal (talk) 06:26, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

The fact that the WHO is current considering reclassifying aspartame is currently known knowledge, not speculation. See here, here/here, and in passing here. Chamaemelum (talk) 06:33, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

The wording would need to be considered carefully. "They're going to declare it to be carcinogenic" would be speculation. "They are reviewing the research about aspartame and cancer" is not speculation. WhatamIdoing (talk) 09:57, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Exactly. To be perfectly clear, I'm not advocating for the former. Chamaemelum (talk) 16:09, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

And the latter is without relevance, as the readers would like to figure out what the outcome might me.

But as mentioned, we should just debate two weeks and then see whether or not IARC will re-classify anything. --Julius Senegal (talk) 19:29, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

The fact that they are considering it, regardless of outcome, is relevant. See:

https://themalaysianreserve.com/2023/06/24/world-health-organization-to-assess-cancer-risk-of-diet-soda-sweetener-aspartame/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/06/22/aspartame-diet-drink-health-risks-who/ or https://web.archive.org/web/20230622224834/https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/06/22/aspartame-diet-drink-health-risks-who/

https://www.mondaq.com/unitedstates/chemicals/1313816/whats-next-for-the-international-agency-for-research-on-cancer-in-2023-aspartame-methyleugenol-pfoa-pfos-and-more

https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2023/06/20/viewpoint-iarcs-aspartame-report-echoes-glyphosate-cancer-determination-controversial-organization-ignores-back-off-directive-from-who-us-and-japan-releasing-wh/ Chamaemelum (talk) 19:55, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Readers might "like" to figure out what the outcome might be, but the short-term goal is just to reassure the readers that we're aware that it's happening. If we simultaneously reinforce to them that we are not willing to rely on our crystal balls, or even on the Science by press conference that's been going on for a few days, then so much the better. WhatamIdoing (talk) 08:02, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

There were two paragraphs, and the first one was very offensive and violated talk page rules. Discuss content rather than editors. The second paragraph might have been more relevant here. Not sure how. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 01:44, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Replace first comment with:

Note: original comment has been deleted. The IP editor (talk) implied that Zefr was basing edits on dismissing sources that were not in the WP:MEDRS category, thus dismissing information as irrelevant in a Wikipedia article relevant to it, and said Zefr's edits appear to following a similar pattern on this page, "categorically dismissing all news sources as irrelevant, which reflects their own preference and a narrow reading of the Wikipedia guidelines." Keep second paragraph.

What do you think about this proposal? Chamaemelum (talk) 01:52, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

That is exactly the type of speculation about other editors we don't allow. Keep it up and you risk a site ban. You've been warned. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 02:34, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

What? This is a summary of the IP editor's comments, without the link. Chamaemelum (talk) 02:37, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Stop discussing the editor. It's offensive. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 02:48, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

This is a discussion about someone else's discussion of the editors actions summarized explicitly and solely with regard to the article's content. Chamaemelum (talk) 02:50, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

"200 times sweeter"

As a reader, I'm left wondering - and the sources don't really help explaining it (from what I saw, could be my fault) - what is being measured in the "200x sweeter" claim? Is it that, to achieve the same reported sweetness, it requires a quantity 200x inferior? Or that, to the same quantity, it is reportedly 200x sweeter (whatever that means)? Or that, in a survey, people reported a threshold 200x inferior from which they claim the solution is "sweet"? I'm asking, as there's people here who know more about this topic and have been editing this article for longer, knowing the sources way better than I could ever. I wish the text can be replaced to a more understandable and exact statement once this is clarified. Sto0pinismo^0_o 15:39, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

The article on sweetness shows that sucrose is the standard reference given a subjective sweetness score of 1, with other sweeteners, either natural or artificial, like aspartame, compared to sucrose by weight in a test food or beverage to achieve the same perceived sweetness. Example: 5 mg of aspartame would give the same subjective level of sweetness in a formulated product as 1000 mg (1 gram) of sucrose. Many references, such as EFSA and Drugbank, use the 200x taste comparison, which has existed since 1976 and earlier. Zefr (talk) 18:07, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Appreciate the explanation and the reading material. With this, I think "200 times sweeter" is absolutely fine to describe it, though I believe adding "by weight" would help the accuracy of this article. It's small and probably not worth a huge discussion over. Sto0pinismo^0_o 15:23, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Environmental effects of aspartame

This should be elaborated. There is currently a very short note on "Water quality", with a reference to two article that discuss the concern "growing over contamination of the environment with artificial sweeteners" (Li et al. 2018), but there is no memtion of these concerns in the Wikipedia article.

Several research articles have raised similar concerns over the recent years, e.g.:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8060115/

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0043135413009019

https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2012/ay/c2ay05950a 2001:999:485:769D:1414:B327:38A9:4755 (talk) 12:42, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Anyone can raise concerns, what evidence is there? From the second source: "..among the five most commonly used artificial sweeteners named above, only aspartame decomposes under normal usage conditions.." Actually, I'm thinking Li 2018 should be replaced since it doesn't mention aspartame, probably with your second source. Draken Bowser (talk) 13:42, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

When scientists raise concern in their research output, there is sually evidence to back it up.

Good observation on the second article; although the source of your quote is from 1983, so it is rather outdated.

In fact, the first source discusses aspartame more extensively. For example, (citing yet another article): "A recent study has reported that ASP [= aspartame] (100 mg/kg) was toxic to Lemna minor, Sinapis alba, Daphnia magna, Enchytraeus crypticus, Desmodesmus subspicatus, and Lactuca sativa while both SAC and ASP (100 mg/kg) disrupted the reproduction of Enchytraeidae." 2001:999:485:769D:1414:B327:38A9:4755 (talk) 02:10, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

The Naik et al. article also states that artificial sweeteners are found in "very low concentrations (micrograms or milligrams per kg_dw) in the environment". It would likely be appropriate for inclusion in a Toxicity subsection, but not the current Water quality subsection – as it might imply toxic concentrations have been found near waste water treatment plants. Little pob (talk) 12:13, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Ball and stick model error

The amino group NH2 shows erroneously a third hydrogen. 2A01:E0A:149:BEB0:4AEA:7A37:D4E:3BA6 (talk) 12:01, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, please see [21] file history comment: "this image was cited to a published ref. It's the zwitterionic form, so there is also no H on the carboxylate." JimRenge (talk) 12:23, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Pronunciation

How is this word pronounced, please? 2601:1C0:8380:16E0:8431:D1AE:4EA1:861B (talk) 16:53, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Ramazzini Foundation (2005)

Our article at Science by press release highlights:

In 2005, the European Ramazzini Foundation of Oncology and Environmental Sciences (ERF) reported their findings from testing aspartame on rats. Their studies were widely criticized and later discounted.

References

Aside from needing to clarify the nature of the "findings" (which seem to have been involved in the "aspartame scare"), all mention of this is missing from the present article and that seems to be a noteworthy gap to patch.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:03, 23 December 2023 (UTC)