Talk:Aryan Valley/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

POV page to be deleted

"Aryan valley" is just a silly pseudonym being given to a small segment of Indus valley where supposed "Aryans" live. It is not a geographical entity. This page should be deleted and whatever worthy in it should go into the Brokpa page. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:06, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

It is not a silly pseudonym ,it is a geographical region and this area was independent from ladakh since ages and it was not under ladakhi kingdom . Aryan valley of Ladakh is a widely recognised name and it is used by thousand of newspaper and books Minaro123 (talk) 19:22, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

So, what is its geography? Where is it described? Which source has described anything called an "Aryan valley"? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 22:00, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

the sources are shared as a reference at the end of each section. Minaro123 (talk) 22:24, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

please remove the proposed for deletion , there are various news articles using Aryan valley to show that it is indeed a small geographical region within Ladakh Minaro123 (talk) 22:27, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

You are welcome to present your sources here and discuss them. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 23:26, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Dear kautilya, Please read the sources in reference section . Aryan valley is used by many newspaper ,book and articles . Every sentence is cited with reference .

Minaro123 (talk) 08:27, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Now these page is improved with many sections with reference like historical section, recognition section etc Minaro123 (talk) 08:28, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Please remove the proposed for deletion for this pages ,it will create choas to other Wikipedia admin and reader Minaro123 (talk) 08:37, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Please add WP:Full citations. Make sure that they are WP:RS. Remove random web sites and blogs. Until then, you have't met the basic requirements of a Wikipedia page. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 08:44, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

I have removed the random website and added mostly added reliable sources for citation like Indian express and reliable published book . Does it now met the basic requirements and could you delete the request for deletion now?

Minaro123 (talk) 11:40, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: Brok Yul( Aryan valley) is indeed a region mentioned by francke during his duty in ladakh somewhere between. 1890 to 1930 . He mentioned brok Yul. And there is a reference map of Brokyul in the reference section of Aryan valley page , nowadays these region is known as Aryan valley, please see the quotation reference and removeyour deletion request. [1] Map of Brokyul [2] Abdul ghani sheikh , a famous writer mentioned Brokyul ,sham , zanskar as a different region [3]

[4] Minaro123 (talk) 06:42, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Mentioned of Brokyul region is many books , see these too [5] Minaro123 (talk) 06:43, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

The Brokpa people in Brokyul used to had a conflict between Ladakhis in the east and Balti people in west used to had a conflict in the past . And Brokpa people have scarifice a lot of life to be independent from their neighbour kingdom Because Brokpa people used to have a different cultures, langauge, tradition, custom and everything was different from Tibetic ruler . These region have been sperated for thousand of year and Ladakhis popularly used to know these region as " Brog yul" or brok Yul . The emotions of the endangered unique ethnic group of Brokpa are connected with it's region who is only somewhere between 3000- 4000 out of 8 billion world population . And speaking a endangered langauge of few thousand speaker . Please don't play with their emotions ,it hurts them . There is a well reliable source for Brokyul ,and these Brokyul is mentioned by many well known writer, so it 100% deserve to be included in wikepedia . And today these region is known as Aryan valley , theere are more than hundred of newspaper are talking about Aryan valley and about it's village . So it deserve . Though Ladakh is a remote area and it is unlikely that it's region wud be get covert In a big newspaper , Still newspaper have a lot of coverage . So please remove the deletetion and instead contribute to make Aryan valley a resource page

Copy editor notes

If someone is trying to rescue this article, I am willing to try to help. I do this a lot, but I know less than nothing about this people or these places. So please accept any questions I might ask you as an attempt to help you explain this to a random English speaking reader who knows nothing. I have done some preliminary cleanup of problems that are typical of articles about India. In particular, punctuation -- see some rules of thumb below about that, those problems are easy to explain and annoying to fix -- and also when to use "the" and "a", which is a little harder to explain. But cleaning these up for you will increase the likelihood of other editors coming in to help you as well, perhaps even some that won't need to have as much explained to them. ;)

• First of all is this article about the place or the people? You need to decide the topic before you can convince anyone that it is notable.

• Is the title to this correct? If I correctly understand the person who is trying to delete the article, the title is at the heart of his/her objection to it, and he/she feels it is a) wrong and b) racist or a vestige of colonialism, or something...

• I was going to protest the removal of that long origin story text, but if it is too close a paraphrase I am afraid the removal is appropriate. However that doesn't mean that something is wrong with the source -- I will look into that for you -- and it may be something you can cite if this article is about the people. A book is a very good source and you need good sources if you want to keep the article from being deleted.

• As a technical matter, a couple of the sources are frequently repeated, but without page numbers. We need the page numbers.

• Google Play urls - why? Google Books is usual.

here is a Google Books version of that link [6] but we need to make sure it isn't a vanity press. Haven't researched that yet. Elinruby (talk) 12:10, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

• Rui Khatisde - is it "a" demon, "the" demon, or "demons"?

Based on a Google Books snippet it is one female demon, but there is little context, so looking for another reference for this Elinruby (talk) 15:22, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

• "a" capital of Ladakh (?) I started to change this to "the", but apparently it's a "joint capital". Does this mean there is more than one?

yes, there is a summer capital also.Elinruby (talk) 15:22, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

I would like to keep this section for asking my clueless questions all in one place. If anyone wants to answer me, please do so in a new section or at least at the bottom of this one.

For future reference:

• Punctuation before references, always, on en-wiki.
• Space after punctuation not before. Always, everywhere in English.
• As a rule of thumb, words are only capitalized if they are the name of someone is or something. Elinruby (talk) 08:44, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

@Elinruby: Thank you for reaching out for help , I am a native of Aryan valley region and belong to Brokpa tribe.These region which have a population of somewhere around 5000 has been sperate and independent for thousands of years. There is a homogeneous ethnic group live in these regions named Minaro or Brokpa . Minaro is their native name while brokpa is a name give to these people by the people of its neighbouring region of Balti people and Ladakhis. The people of ancient Maryul region used to call these region a 'Brog yul, which means 'land of Brokpa'.

2: During 19- 21 century, many researchers have visited these place , and they have put a theories , some researcher have claimed these people ,the descendants of alexander the great , Because many people in that Brog Yul region had blonde hair and blue eyes with tall height resembles European . Because it was stranger for them to seeing such facial features in the mountain of Asia ,india . Even some researcher have said they are the Aryans who migrated to India from Europe in ancient time . [7]

I don't think I can sell that as a reliable source. We need reliable sources. Elinruby (talk) 16:16, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

@Elinruby: it says "they have distinct features – tall and statesque, with green eyes, high cheek bone, fair with flawless skin and some with blonde hair. " [8] , there are hundred of references saying these by journal,newspaper, book etc. 3:However ,the elder of Brokyul calimed that they have initially came from Europe and later settled and pur valley of Gilgit. After the people of gilgit got jealous of their wealth,they had a plan to kill them , however they have escape and settled down brokyul region .[9]

4: Many writers throughout the history has mentioned a brog Yul or brok Yul region in their book.

5: During the 2000 - 2022, these place got a new name as Aryan valley, it was officially used by administration of Indian government to refer these region , and the old name " Brog yul" have became outdated and no one seems to use it nowadays . At present z The Aryan valley region is used by reliable newspaper and government , so these articles.was about these region . Their is no racist point of using " Aryan valley " , and it is officially used by government, writers , newspaper so now it deserve to be called aryan valley.

Below have a reference of Official government of India website using "Aryan valley region". 1:Garkhone in Aryan valley region [10]

This is what we call a primary source. Need independent publications. This is sort of good but not enough on its own. Also, if I have this straight, isn't this the jurisdiction next door that burns your leaders? Not sure this proves that this is really the name. Something from the federal government would be better, newspapers or history articles better still.Elinruby (talk) 16:16, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

indian express newspaper is cited always Minaro123 (talk) 16:23, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

2: Darchik in Aryan valley [11] >:See above. Isn't this place in Jammu and Kashmir now, even if it once conquered Ladakh? I could still be confused...Elinruby (talk) 16:16, 24 December 2022 (UTC) 3: demanding seperate subdivision for Aryan valley in national parliament of India . [[12]].

You can find each and every sentence through a reference of book , all statements made are relaible and true and i am living in these region since my birth and i read each and every book about aryan valley and brokpa people. Thank you

Not doubting you for a moment, but Wikipedia has very specific rules about sourcing that I am trying to help you to navigate. Please click this link: WP:RS

I just typed a long answer and accidentally closed the page before I saved it so forgive me for being brusque: it will save both of us a lot of time and typing if you go read WP:RS and the question I asked at WP:RSN as well as my comments linked to in the deletion discussion linked to above. I think I saw that you or someone else working on the page was using a mobile. If so you may have to click on "read as a Wiki page" at the very bottom of this page, in order to see the notice. Meanwhile I will educate myself a bit about all this by clicking around on the various links and references and do some copy-editing and housekeeping. There are some legitimate concerns but I think I can help you. You should realize that "Aryan" is closely associated to neo-Nazis in English, and yes I know about the language family. Nonetheless, it is a thing you will need to overcome. I have seen the Alexander story and am not necessarily dismissing it -- the Muslims got to India from the Mediterranean after all -- but I haven't seen a source for it in any of the associated Wikipedia articles, so that will be important if you want to use it. I did see a mention of an ancient Greek, but you'll need a specific title, edition and page number. Elinruby (talk) 12:00, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Also, is it a coincidence that the name changed when the fighting stopped? PS. The part I know something about is Wikipedia policies; I assume that there are competing nationalist narratives in this area -- I see Tibet, China, Pakistan, and India, and perhaps different subgroups of each -- so I apologize in advance if anything I ask you should seem offensive. Elinruby (talk) 12:06, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Another question: why does Maryul say that Jammu and Kashmir was a "would-be" princely state? Is this about the British absorbing it during the Raj? Elinruby (talk) 12:14, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Dogra dynasty had a terrotary named 'princely state of jammu and kashmir' . In 1842, Dogra dyansty sttacked and conquored Maryul and in 1846 ,dogra added Maryul in his 'princely state of jammu and kashmir' . Minaro123 (talk) 13:42, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

@Elinruby: 1:There is no relationship between the cruelty of neo Nazi group with these tribal people of ladakh who are only 3000 today .they have migrated to brok Yul region way thousand of year .

I do realize that this is not that -- I am not quite *that* ignorant of the area -- but some people may think that you are trying to market to people who think that Hitler had a good idea. Just saying. I just asked you a question below about the Bactrians, where I found some support for the idea. Elinruby (talk) 12:53, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Aryan valley region is used by government officals of india ,Ut ladakh.Not only by officials, but also by newspapers, books, websites are using aryan valley region . I am not intending any kind of personal benefit , i just want to put these region on wikepedia which is cited by thousand of reference. Minaro123 (talk) 13:45, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

2: These ethnic Minority Brokpa people of Brokyul used to have a different independent kingdom since ages , however the Maryul kingdom of ancient ladakh demanded forced labour from these brokpa region and tried to rule the Brokyul region in past , but brokpa leader resisted and many brokpa leader have sacrifices their life while fighting with Maryul kingdom, one of the popular example is leader throsali of hanu village of Brokyul region, he was burned alive by the Maryul kingdom tsewang namgail .

I will look him up Elinruby (talk) 12:53, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Not finding anything about this in either English or French Google. Maybe in one of the Indian languages? Not sure which languages you might speak besides English. Elinruby (talk) 16:03, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

please read the [13] for mentioning tsewang namgail Minaro123 (talk) 16:24, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Haven't read that yet, cause it was getting late, but yes, this looks like exactly the sort of source that the article needs Elinruby (talk)

Until these time Aryan valley (brok Yul) region and [Maryul region] has been a sperate and independent kindom .

Got it. I have a question about this but I need to look up some words to ask it. Will come back to this. Elinruby (talk) 12:53, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

3: the reason of saying them aryan could be their ancient archaic langauge ,the brokskat has a archaic word of Indo -Aryan family.

I realize about the name of the language group. What's a broksat? Elinruby (talk) 12:53, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

@Elinruby: Brokskat is a langauge spoken by the ethinic Brokpa

Ok got it. I don't think anyone is questioning that it's an Indo-Aryan language Elinruby (talk) 16:03, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

4: these place is officially known as Aryan valley by government . But in 1846 dogra attacked ladakh and it has United the [Brokyul]] region completely in ladakh and the dogra was ruling Ladakh Baltistan , former [[[ Kashmir]] . So all of these region was under a same state with the name of jammu and kashmir state However , in 1947 , The jammu and kashmir became part of India .

Dogra is the name of the region we are talking about, right? And 1947 is Indian Independence? I am on a phone too so it isn't easy for me to switch screens to look this up. That's how I lost my long answer earlier. Noting the question as something I want to double check or have you confirm. Elinruby (talk) 12:53, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

@Elinruby: Dogra is a name of Dynasty ,Dogra dynasty , these Dynasty have ruled Maryul and Aryan valley in 1846 under his kingdom .

the Greek origin appears to be a deep subject. My knowledge of the geography is an issue here, but there are sources (Pliny) at a discussion of the Saka at [Indo-Sythians]], and Indo-Greek Kingdom might also be useful, although I *think* these histories are for nearby regions that are not the same (unless they are just using a completely different set of names). Take a look and tell me what you think. I am going to move on to a different set of questions for now. Elinruby (talk) 12:41, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

@Elinruby: 1: The is a no history of Greek origin for Brokpa people of Aryan valley, Researcher just claimed they might be the descendents of the European because of having blonde hair and blue eyes. 2: The Aryan migration theory and the brokpa theory is completely different ,there is no relationship between them because brok Yul were not part of India before 1846, brok Yul and Maryul became part of kashmir region only in 1846 and later in 1947 ,it has became a part of India .and it is a fact. These origin is just a theorist made by popular researchers .

Ok... So a different set of Greeks? As I said, I am not dismissing this. As for the Bactrians, my thinking was that if *those* Aryans got to Tibet and Dogra was once part of Tibet, it demonstrated that this was conceivable. So to be clear, you are saying that this is an official name but you do not believe the theory about Alexander yourself? I think the wording in the article is along the lines of "some have believed"; I don't see a source for that though. We would need a reference for somebody saying so and somebody else saying that this is wrong, if that what you are trying to convey. There are a lot of sources in the two articles I linked for the Aryan migration theory, if they are useful. Still pretty confused about all that. I seem to have established that there was only one, female, demon so I will take care of that question above. It is really important that you read WP:RS so you understand what we are looking for. Off to read some more. I will come back later with more questions and answer any of yours that you have left here. Elinruby (talk) 13:07, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Aryan migration theory and these brokpa have nothing to do . these brokpa have a oral stories and ancient folk songs to claimed their migration from europe to gilgit to present Dha and Hanu village of aryan valley . Their migration took place by only a group of people . in addition ,their claimed is supported by their resemblence that is having blue eye and blonde hair .

whereas aryan migration theory is a hoax ,there is no oral story ,neither the physical look of northern indian who claimed to be migrated from eurasia have is not supported .

these two theory are completly different and please dont mix these,there is a book to cite everything i say and it could be traced with the rignt search of google Minaro123 (talk) 13:52, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Alexander was somewhere very close to there and left some of his soldiers behind as satraps so I see why someone might think that. But fine, if you say it has been disproven -- did I see somewhere that this was something they thought during the Raj? I can see that this is kinda ethnocentric. But if we are going to talk about this, it can't just be "some believe this". We need an example and a citation for the example. And then we need to say this it was disproven, if that was case, with a citation for that statement. As written it sounds like you are affirming this as a bald unsourced statement. This may be one reason you are encountering resistance. The deletion proposal, well, one editor says it's about the people and we already have an article about them. The other one says no, it's a location, and that is another reason he/she deleted the origin story about the people.

{ping|Elinruby}

i have seen many region , they have a human settlement section ,in which we write about when and who settle in these region and its demography .

I'm not saying he is right about that. I agree that it's a rather artificial distinction. In New Mexico it's the same word (pueblo), but I digress. If he is right about the copyright violation he would still be right to have removed it, though. I promise that I will look at that --and probably be able to fix it -- before I stop working on the article. Elinruby (talk) 16:59, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Can you find an article about the name change? Elinruby (talk) 16:03, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

@Elinruby:, According to the elder of dha , there were only one family from Europe migrated and settled down in pur valley of Gilgit, the angutho and his three son, galo ,Melo and dulo . The reason of them migration is unknown , the have initially settled in our valley and escaped from there, finally settled down in Aryan valley. And there was a reference in my human settlements section of Aryan valley .sadly now it has been deleted . Search on google with the keywords like " Brokpa alexander" and "Brokpa blonde hair " and " brokpa Europe " ,there are plenty of book citing about their migration

I am looking and admittedly confused. Don't worry, I know that I don't know and am not going to do anything beyond improving the English language mechanics for quite a while yet. It is important for you to understand that the sources have to be *in the article*. Please read the instructions at WP:RS if you have not done this yet. This is very important. Although "the elders" are very important in an oral culture, Wikipedia does not accept oral histories unless they are published, preferably in a scholarly publication. I realize that this may seem counter intuitive. The section that was deleted was said to be a possible copyright violation. If so the editor was correct to remove it. I have not yet looked at this. I may be able to rewrite and restore it. One reason I want you to look at the Indo-Scythians, though, getting back to that, is that there is a story there about a king with three sons who each got a different kingdom in the 1st century CE. All of the place names are different, but I wondered if you recognized any of the names. Do you know how to look at the article's history btw? That section on Human settlements is still accessible. I read it before it was removed, though, and it needed more references. Please read WP:RS. I am still working on the place names, overlapping jurisdictions and historical kingdoms. Meanwhile, I am answering myself on some of my bullet points above. Elinruby (talk) 14:40, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

completely different question: I couldn't find Pur Valley, is there a different spelling? If not I will try later with an English browser; part of the problem is that pur is a common word in French.Elinruby (talk) 14:44, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Stephen Kloos, Institude of social Anthrology ,Australian Acedemy of science had published a articles in international Ladakh studies , where he had mentioned , "The Brokpa of Dha in Aryan valley beleive that there ancestor have originally came from Europe and later settled down in Pur valley ,east of Gilgit " . well pure valley is a old name which they remeber was somewhere in east of gilgit , well they have migrated few hundred year ago , so now i dont find any name saying pur valley in gilgit ,however at present there is a valley called wazir pur in shigar a which is around gilgit . these is the closest name i got related to a pur valley . we need to consult a old name of a place around gilgit ,then only after that we can find the exact place of pur valley Minaro123 (talk) 15:17, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

I have seen the name Kloos but haven't looked at that exact citation. He would probably fly as a reliable source for the belief, from the sound of it. We need to nail down what this Pur Valley is tho. Elinruby (talk) 16:03, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

I found a Pur River in India, but it's in Gujarat and only 40km long, so not this Elinruby (talk) 17:10, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

I am out for a while. Try to work on sourcing if you're still working on this. That last one you posted was really good. Try to find som more like that. When I come back I will crank up JStor and try to help. Don't worry about it being deleted today; they will give you a chance to work on it, especially with me coaching you. I don't work on delete nominations much but I do a lot of article rescues. Focus on the name change after the war. Leave any questions or comments here. Elinruby (talk) 17:59, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

@Elinruby: Thank you so much for a discussion and indeed I have very glad to see such an open mind and educated person ,I am impressed. I feel you have a great communication skills . I feel , The person who wants to delete it have a personal problem on these topic. Even though Indian Express( reliable source as per wikepedia) and book by famous writer is already attached and Aryan valley deserve to be stay forver.I am going to sleep ,it's too late aand thank you so much. I respect wikepedia rule and truth will win .

Rui

Finding indications in Google Books that there was indeed a story about a female demon named Rui Elinruby (talk) 10:16, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Padmasambhava says that he was known (in hagiographies) for taming demons, although he is now believed to have originally been a historical figure. Elinruby (talk) 10:23, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Indian Express

Looking it up so you don't have to - I checked the Perennial Sources list, and found that yea verily this is considered a reliable source for GNG: Wikipedia:INDIANEXP. Elinruby (talk) 01:41, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

Museum

@Elinruby: @Kautilya3: The Indira Gandhi National Centre for the Arts, envisioned as a centre for research, academic pursuit and dissemination in the field of the arts. It is under official Indian home ministry.

They have mentioned Aryan valley region and also talked about Aryan valley region's village of Garkon and the Culture . Here is the reference ,[14]. Though whole Ladakh region itself is a considered a remote area which cut off from rest of the world for six months due to heavy snowfall and ladakh 'svillages and it's sub region have a very low media attention because of being a remote area , but still government government office recognize these Aryan valley region and displaying in their research center news itself made 100% deserve of Aryan valley be a region . Not only official cultural research , but also UT adminstrative of ladakh in their newspaper leh.nic.in and kargil.nic.in also recognise the Aryan valley as a region . In addition of government , reliable newspaper like Indian Express as per wikepedia also talked about Aryan valley region definition . And including one journal covers Aryan valley region . Many independent author also talks about Aryan valley like There is a book like [15] and many more etc . So from all above reference , Aryan valley should be in wikepedia. Minaro123 (talk) 07:35, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

I am not sure that book counts as a reliable source. But not to worry; Other reliable sources do exist. Have you read the reliable sources instructions yet? There are special definitions you need to know about. But let's move on from proving it shouldn't be deleted, which I think we have done, to making it better. Elinruby (talk) 07:49, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

That museum newsletter looks like it meets the reliable source criteria. I read the article about Garkon, very interesting. It definitely gave me a feel for the culture I hadn't had before. Maybe you should try to incorporate some of that into a culture section. Just thinking out loud. You should definitely add from the newsletter to the Garkon article. Elinruby (talk) 12:59, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

Some other National english newspaper articles about Aryan valley

These newspaper are Indian national english newspaper ,it may or may not be a relaible according to wikepedia , but it has a very good reputation in term of saying facts .

The Dard Aryans inhabit Dha, Hanu, Beema, Darchik and Garkone villages in Leh and Kargil districts. The villages are together called the Aryan Valley.

They say the government should set up a tribal hostel in the region and declare the Aryan Valley a heritage village to boost tourism..

Its says about Aryan valley region.

Many newspaper , offical government newspaper , culture center reach articles are talking about Aryan valley , so it makes clear that Aryan valley is a popular region and it deserve to be on wikepedia . Aryan valley is just a name of region .[16] Minaro123 (talk) 05:25, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Adding to article from this source. Not seeing a staff box, but given the publication's size and lengthy history, it seems to meet RS for GNG Elinruby (talk) 05:51, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Beema

The article in The Tribune includes this village, but this wiki article does not. Is The Tribune mistaken or did the author of this article overlook Beema? Elinruby (talk) 06:11, 26 December 2022 (UTC) Replying to Elinruby Dah, Ladakh is a panchayat Village. Other than Dha village , it has four other hamlets that is beema , baldesh ,Lasthang and sanit . So Beema is just a hamlet of Dah, Ladakh village .seperately .Minaro123 (talk) 06:34, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Oh I see, it is part of Dha Elinruby (talk) 06:36, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

what is sabdak

Replying to Elinruby (talk) The ignac news letters quotes:

Sabdak , An ancient symbol representative of local God. Sabdak is place near the fire alter ,the first food cooked/prepared is offered to it .

These comes under religion, culture, traditional belief ,rituals of Aryan valley, the inhabitants of Aryan valley is Brokpa ethinic group,this is their traditional ancient culture which is still following up to date . You can add it under the culture section of Aryan valley .i will add collect more sources about the culture of Aryan valley and will provide it to you , the culture of Aryan valley is quite different from the mainstream culture of ladakh . Minaro123 (talk) 07:34, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Local newspaper of Ladakh region on Aryan valley

"Voice of ladakh" is one of the few newspaper of Ladakh and it mainly covers about the Ladakh region . They have mentioned "Aryan valley" 16 times in one of their articles ,

It quotes :

NABARD distributed apricot harvesting nets among farmers of Darchik, Sanachey and Garkon villages in Aryan Valley of Kargil here today.

 Sanachay is a small Hamlet which comes under Darchik village officially . 

A ten-day-long Cultural Revival Workshop on different forms of Ladakhi music including folk songs, Daman, Surna and Dingtang, organized by Ladakh Academy of Art, Culture and Languages (LAACL) Kargil, in collaboration with different cultural organizations of Aryan valley concluded today at Darchiks-Aryan Valley..

As there are four prominent village of Aryan valley region that is dha, hanu Garkon and Darchik . Garkon and Darchik is inkargil district of Ladakh . These articles is talking about the Two village of Aryan valley that is Garkhone and Darchik about a event that happened . Here is the reference [17]

Minaro123 (talk) 10:33, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

I see a staff box and an editorial policy. Good. Going to add the reference about the apricot nets to the cultivation section, for a start Elinruby (talk) 12:20, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

2::"Ladakhtimes" , Local newspaper of Ladakh on Aryan valley : the quotation are below :

In Ladakh, for the first time a three day Specialty Medical Camp organized in Aryan valley during which more than 130 patients were treated and checked up on the 1st day.

Specialist Doctors in Medicine, Orthopedics and General provided their service to the people of Garkone, Darchiks and adjoining villages.

Talking about Aryan valley medical camp in Garkhone and Darchik village of Aryan valley.

One of the volunteer of the village thanking the specialist doctors thanked them for choosing the Aryan Valley for the Camp and requested for such camps in future also. .

The reference is here [18],

In ladakh Aryan valley is a well known region. Minaro123 (talk) 10:53, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

3: Daily excelsior is a largest circulated daily of Jammu and Kashmir . However ,it is not a local Ladakh region's newspaper but thankfully these news paper mainly cover about the region of UT of Jammu and Kashmir and UT of ladakh .

It quotes : :::

LEH, Nov 22: Lieutenant Governor of Ladakh, RK Mathur, today met and interacted with 25 women from the Aryan Valley who are going on a National Integration Tour organized by the Forever in Operations Division of the Indian Army as a part of Operation Sadbhavana. Sarpanch Dha-Hanu, officials from the Indian Army and the participants were present during the interaction session

It is talking about a Dha and hanu village of Aryan valley region .--

It further quotes :

He informed about the various ongoing developmental activities in the Aryan Valley.

The reference for these articles is here [19].

Thank youMinaro123 (talk) 11:13, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Recognition section

Ladakh Autonomous Hill Development Council -- need to specify which one. Elinruby (talk) 12:07, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

I think Mp of ladakh is saying both of Ladakh autonomous hill development council (LAHDC) ,one is LAHDC leh and another is LAHDC kargil , that's the reason he didn't specify any one of them . Because two prominent village of Aryan valley i.e Dha and hanoo is in LAHDC Leh District and another two villages of Aryan valley i.e Garkon and Darchik is in kargil district. Still I will look for these news published in other newspapers and will let you know if i found any . Minaro123 (talk) 18:06, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

you should unlink the name them because right now it is going to a disambiguation page that points out that there are two and asks which one is meant. This is considered a Bad Thing. But nothing is on fire, take a look and see if you can clarify first. And if he does mean both, which I can see that he might, just dont make a link there, It's not required. Elinruby (talk) 18:14, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

I am not recognizing any district names in either council. You are saying that different villages are represented by different councils? Elinruby (talk) 17:08, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

refs for consideration

Complete shutdown in Kargil as transporters demand UT level permits (jknewsline.com) Elinruby (talk) 12:44, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

infrastructure development

electrification, clean water and mobile tower projects are also of interest. Not ready to write that section but will put some links here

Elinruby (talk) 12:59, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/batalik-other-aryan-villages-plug-into-national-grid-ahead-of-75th-i-day/articleshow/84953121.cms https://jknewsline.com/jal-jeevan-maah-celebration-in-leh-to-ensure-safe-drinking-water-for-every-rural-household/

historiography

we should probably draft that here before going live with it in the article.

18th century  and bbefore
  :: the ethinic group lived in these region was called 'Buddhist Dards' by the former writer dawn and 'Brokpa' by shawn 

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.49165/page/n284/mode/1up?view=theater&q=Garkon https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.43256/page/n251/mode/1up?view=theater&q=brokpa it has a very resourseful materials , { my personal veiw: it makes me remind of those stories where elder used to talk about the raids ,attacked to steal food was done by its neighbour region , as these Brokpa in aryan valley used to live together ,yet depent on their agricultural land ,still there are forts made on the top village where every villagers used to live to get safety from raiders , now ruined fort could still be seen , In dha the fort which was mentioned by dawn is called Aruski , where every every house of the villagers were build in a rampart to safeguard against a raider, { story narrated by my grandparents: my great great grandparents ,two of their siblings were going to trade in skardu with apricot expecting a goods in exchange of their fruits, however balti raiders killed two of them in their way in skardu , That's the reason , for thousand of year Brokpa never had any good relationship with their cruel neighbors }

19th century:https://www.ucpress.edu/book/9780520205468/aryans-and-british-india -- no preview available. We need something like this here however. here's partial abstract: https://go.gale.com/ps/i.do?id=GALE%7CA20913052&sid=googleScholar&v=2.1&it=r&linkaccess=abs&issn=00221953&p=AONE&sw=w&userGroupName=anon%7Eb569b8d5

1928, all sorts of tropes: https://www.google.ca/books/edition/Magic_Ladakh/mjkuMgDU83EC

Aryan invasion disproven: “Aryan Valley” and the Politics of Race and Religion in Kashmir | Society for Cultural Anthropology (culanth.org) Origin and identity of the Brokpa of Dah-Hanu, Himalayas - an NRY-HG L1a2 (M357) legacy - PubMed (nih.gov) Elinruby (talk) 18:21, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

silly tourists: https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2014/7/14/in-pictures-the-last-aryans

some stuff here about objectificaion. Very interesting quote at beginning of chapter p. 103: https://www.google.com/books/edition/Beyond_Lines_of_Control/2k3mgWCitj0C

An economic narrative: https://indianexpress.com/article/india/kargil-seeks-to-shrug-off-its-war-zone-tag-claim-place-as-tourist-destination-5983045/

Kloos

Don't use the ResearchGate link as it is not RS. The Ladakh Studies one you posted, although it is self-published, gives copyright credit in an early footnote to the publisher of a book, which makes it presumably reliable. He may also qualify as an expert since apparently not many anthropologists got to Dah to talk about medicine. Elinruby (talk) 19:50, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

HISTORY AND CULTURE OF DARD PEOPLE OF LADAKH

Definitely self-published, sorry. Since you say it is authoritative I am leaving it in anyway for the moment, as a point of departure for research on sources that do meet Wikistandards Elinruby (talk) 11:08, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Elinruby Should we completly delete the contents that we have added from the book " History and Culture of Buddhist Dards" in Aryan valley? Or could we still it ? Please tell me , we will do whichever is right?Minaro123 (talk) 16:31, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

We are going to need to delete it as a source. That will leave the material unsourced and it should be deleted unless we can find another source. I have left it in so far hoping to find another source. No luck so far but I can't say the search has been exhaustive. Hard to say what is right. I think my advice to you is to move the contents to this page --- or I will do it. The thing is, I am inclined to believe it is correct, but Wikipedia has the self-published rule for a good reason, and it applies here. Unless the author is an expert, and I think he would have to be an anthropologist not a school teacher. Ironic considering Franke wasn't an anthropologist either, but he on the other hand has been cited by anthropologists. Kloos will work under the expert rule though, I think. But on this one, if we move the material to the talk page we can still try to find sources for the material, but for purposes of the AfD, which is still open, it will show that you are learning Wikipedia policies and trying to comply with them. Elinruby (talk) 08:01, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

'Needs independent RS sources - == Historic sites ==

Malmal khutu: It is a place where the Bono-na festival was held in the ancient period before the Brokpa moved down to their present Dha and Hanoo location. It is located at Dha brog (Head of the Dha valley).

Rui Khatisde : It is located around 2 km from Garkon monastery. There is a story that a demon named Rui used to eat little children every year, until Guru Padmasambhava miraculously appeared and put the demon to death in the high rocky mountain and covered the hole of that mountain with black circular stone. At present, the boulder where Padmasambhava sat while performing a pooja to eliminate the demon Rui is naturally formed with a colorful image which is believed to be a body print of Padmasambhava.

Naturally formed body print of Padmasambhava in Garkon on a boulder.

RUI KHATI side, Black circular stone on a brownish rock

Aruski Fort Aruski is the old settlement of Dah village, where all the houses were built inside a strong rampart. There was a fort at the main entrance. Only some ruined houses and part of the fort can be seen at present.

Aruski Dha Fort in the 19th century

Elinruby (talk) 08:17, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

References

Name of thes region and people

This is a discussion of these region before it goes live on the main articles: Summary of place and people: Before 19 century ,thes region was independent and inhabited by Minaro community. The name of these region was seems to be known as Dha hanu country / region of Buddhist Dards/ Dha hanu district by the writer in 19 century . the people of these region were called Buddhist Dards ,Brokpa of Dha hanu . Francke in 19 century describe these people as Dards of da . However , Apart from Writer , its neighbouring Ladakhis called these region Brok Yul /Brog Yul . Brokyul is also described by many writers during 1950 to 2000. Recently since 2000 to present , these place is popularly for known as " Aryan valley" and since then offical government , relaible newspapers, anthropology , tourist industries Indian national culture research organisation like ignac . They describe these people of still have ancient ritual of' Dards Aryan ' and their animism religion .and thus they have describes as ' Dard Aryan ' to these people and that's how The region got a name as ' Aryan vvalley'. The prominent village of these region by all of the author since 19 century were said Dha ,hanu , garkone ,darchik and their hamlets such as beema(phindur) , baldesh ,sanit ,lasthyang,sanache ,urdas(Hordass), gurgurdo . Few writers have names their hamlets too in their book like author Shaw's and Dawn during 1800 to 1890.

During 1850 to 1890 ,the authors described that the Dards of Dha consider a no blood relation with their neighbours Dards of their neighbours .

Resolution: Elinruby (talk · contribs), since you have a good English skills , i will add a content in these page and in your spare time, you could summaries them beautifullly in a english , i am impressed by your English writing skills as I have gone through your earlier edit . we will Add the history of these place name systematically their region place name and their ethnic name of these region with reference , all the reference are writen by an popular author and there are the articles of those author in wikepedia. It would be a huge contribution for wikepedia to make a free encyclopaedia. Minaro123 (talk) 08:16, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Ok well. One of the problems we're have here is that there still isn't a good reference for Minaro as an endonym even Elinruby (talk) 07:30, 29 December 2022 (UTC) Reply : here is a relaible journal reference for their native name which is Minaro [20] And the same articles is here [21] And reference number 2:even here : [22] page number 357 have written ,the alternative ethnic name is Minaro .

there is something wrong with the first two if those links, try again. Third one works and has possibilities Elinruby (talk) 16:59, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

And in case of you need a reliable referencee for anything then please write it down , i will find and share it to you . Minaro123 (talk) 18:42, 30 December 2022 (UTC) You keep saying that there are reliable sources and when I look yes you are right, but the have to be *in the article* eventually. The fact that they exist is wonderful for purposes of proving that the name should have an article about it, but the sources need to make it into the article. Francke seems to be cited by pretty much everyone and he would count. I am going to write a separate section about all of the group naming to make sure I have that straight but we need the region well defined also since it's the topic. Dard and Aryan are language and culture terms. And yes, please do check my edits. Mostly they are copyedits with a pretty light hand, focused on punctuation, but I don't want to accidentally introduce any errors of fact either Elinruby (talk) 07:41, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Culture

This is a draft of culture before goes live , Elinruby Dear Elinruby ,thank you for writing in the culture section , it was well written , however sorry to say that mainland culture of ladakh is different from Aryan valley,the two sagment you have added in culture are of Culture of Ladakh. Well you can add those paragraph in section of Culture of Ladakh . The culture of ladakh is very different from the culture of Aryan valley. To find the culture of these region ,you could search, the following ; 1: culture of Dha hanu , 2culture of Brokpa , 3: culture of Buddhist Dards. 4: Culture of Aryan valley.

The first two search will drop you at right culture . I will add here some links from which you could write about the culture of brokpa

1: culture of dha hanu https://books.google.co.in/books?id=7YdUEAAAQBAJ&pg=PT151&dq=culture+of+dha+hanu&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjsor2P6Zz8AhUWTGwGHVvpCyUQ6wF6BAgKEAU#v=onepage&q=culture%20of%20dha%20hanu&f=fals

From the above link Mendok stanmo dance , and wherever thier is a culture of dha hanu see above in that link ,u could add it .

Ah. I thought Leh was part of it. Ok. I will move that a little later today. You know what I could use, is a list of which hamlets are in which village. Maybe even in the article; we do that in France articles, it seems to me Elinruby (talk) 18:01, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Also, you are saying that barley is not a crop there? Elinruby (talk) 18:02, 28 December 2022 (UTC) Elinruby, Yeah Barley is a crops here , maybe you can add that portion about barley, however ,Leh is not a part of these palce , Dha hanu region was a small region inhabited by a brokpa ,in 18 century Aryan valley region became a part of Ladakh .and the culture of dha hanu is quite distinct from ladakh .

section of culture : traditinal dress of brogpa culture https://www.thehindu.com/life-and-style/travel/the-ladakhi-village-of-dah-offers-a-lot-for-the-inquisitive-traveller/article30800281.ece

The first one is self-published according to its own website and therefore cannot be used, unless we can make a case that the author is an expert. That is a hard lift and probably won't happen. The Hindu passes the Reliable Sources test but isn't exactly in depth. It's would be a good source for "Dah has a monastery" however, or the existence of that festival. A couple of thoughts: I need to stop using a French browser and use google.co.in; I have a theory that this may give better results as these are things Google takes into account when deciding what is relevent. Also, DAH is DHA, a nutrition supplement. I also have access to some journal databases (you might too; I will look at the requirements for you). I will remind myself how to get into that. Meanwhile: for you I suggest scholar.google.com, and The Reference Desk that is linked to on the Google main page. It is also possible -- just thinking out loud here, this is for either you or me -- that we might be able to find some documents that aren't indexed by Google at the British Museum website, which I just noticed today is impressive as to French legal history -- seems like the might be even more so about a country they used to administer. Elinruby (talk) 11:02, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Also. I will try googling "Mendok stanmo dance" to see if I can find a better source Elinruby (talk) 11:04, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Elinruby There is a discription about their ancient rituals , religion and culture in the journals of 19 century when the author visited in the region of Buddhist Dards . The reference is There in the history section , you could take some culture section from there . And i will also add the link of some reliable resources here too .Minaro123 (talk) 19:38, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

here is a link [[23]] page number :113

topic name:. (De)centering: costumes and compositional formats

it has some discrition about the culture of Brogpa . Aryan valley is only inhabited by the buddhhist Brogpa people , they still follows their tradiitional ritual ,and still worship their ancestor dieties. espacially ,from the costum costum add the discription and i will later add the brogpa native picture of men and women wearing the traditional dress,Minaro123 (talk) 09:34, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

The references in the history section look like they will pass RS. I haven't examined them yet, but you are on the right track there. Elinruby (talk) 10:28, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

Nomenclature

Trying to summarize. Please put comments and corrections below, and let's edit the following text until it is right.

++++++ Aryans were invaders of Central Asia from the West. Not all invaders of Central Asia from the West were Aryan.

Dards were Aryan invaders. Not all Aryan invaders were Dards. Both "Aryan" and "Dard" are language and cultural categories created by outsiders and are not what these people called themselves.

Some Dards are Broksat speakers.Not all Broksat speakers are Dards. Other Dards speak Ladakhi or Urdu.

Comment:

1: some Dards are Brokskat speaker.True .

2: However All native broskat speaker are Dards . 3:not all Dards are broskat speaker. Other Dards speaks Shina,kalasha etc . 5: not all Brokskat speakers are brokpa .the brokskat speaker of Ganokh are not brokpa because they have forgotten their culture, tradition and they are intermix with the balti people of baltistan, there is not a single articles in which there is a mention of them being brokpa .

4: their is a special ethnic group of Dards who are known are Minaro or Brokpa. 

5: The Brokpa are majority Buddhist Dards, those Buddhist Dards residing wholly in Dha ,Hnu , Garkhon and Darchik. 6: However there are Muslim Brokpas of small Hamlet in the border of India named Sharchey and Chulichan living who lives nearby a village in Baltistan .and one village in Baltistan named Ganokh . The Muslim Brokpa are in minority,very few .

Some Broksat speakers are Buddhists. Not all Buddhists are Broksat speakers. Some Broksat speakers are Muslim. others still practice an animist religion.

Comment :: The original religion of broskat is animism.

1:All BUDDHIST DARDS follow animism as well as buddhism . 2: there are few muslim Brokpas , thos muslim Brokpas doesn't follow animism ,they are strict muslim and follows islamic culture . 3: Buddhist brokpa still follows Traditional dance , traditional dress and ritual of their ancient ancestors. 4: Muslim Brokpas are strict muslim ,they doesn't follow any traditional Culture. 5: Brokpas are majority Buddhist . 6: they are three small hamlet of muslim brokpa near the baltistan border.Minaro123 (talk) 14:30, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Some Broksat speakers are Brokpa, which is a name given to them by the Ladakhi. They call themselves Minaro, and we need a source for that.

All Minaro live in what the union territory government calls Aryan Valley. They historically practice an animist religion, although there also Buddhist monasteries in Aryan Valley.

Aryan Valley is in the union territory Ladakh, which was previously part of the Indian state of Kashmir. The Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir is part of what was the princely state of Jammu and Kashmir, which joined India at partition, but was invaded by Pakistan. So part of the princely state of Jammu and Kashmir is now in Pakistan, in Gilgit-Baltistan, where the majority-spoken language is Balti. The line of control between the two countries bisects what had been the historic kingdom of Ladakh and the area settled by Bropka speakers, but not Aryan Valley, which is roughly parallel to it +++++ Elinruby (talk) 12:08, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Region name clarification

I: 19 century: Dha hanu District: The author writes following places under Dha hanu district — villages and hamlets — are inhabited by the Buddhist Dards: Grugurdo, Sanacha, Urdus, Darchik, Garkon, Dah, Phindur, Baldes, Hanu, Lower and upper.

1: Sanache ,Urdus(Hordas) is a hamlets of Darchik Village , 2:phindur(Beema) , Baldes are the Hamlets of Dha, Ladakh . 3: upper hanu and lower hanu is in Hanoo . 4: Gurgurdo is a hamlet of Garkon.

So the major four village , dha hanu ,Garkone and Darchik was named as Dha hanu district by a journal in 19th century .

The reference is there in  the articles.

II 20 century name . 2: Brogyul: It has Dha hanu ,Garkon and Darchik . And it is also home to Buddhist Dards .

The reference is there in a articles of Aryan valley.

 III 21 century name 

3: Aryan valley: It has a village named Dha ,Hanu ,Garkone and Darchik inhabited by a Buddhist Dards . The reference is there .

So , it proves that Dha Hanu District, Brogyul Aryan valley refers to a same region which had four predominant village name Dha ,Hanu ,Garkon , Darchik and it's helmets . And These region is inhabited by a BUDDHIST DARDS. However ,there name keeps getting changing with time . And in 21 century , government , newspaper refers to these region as Aryan valley Minaro123 (talk) 20:12, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

tsampa, known in Ladakhi as ngampe,

Is this also a staple food in Dha Hanu? Elinruby (talk) 10:31, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

yes it is also found in dha hanu , I will find a reference and will send it to you.15:43, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

Brogyul

"Aryan Valley cannot be equated with Brog-yul; the term "Aryan valley" does not appear in the source". You quoted these and deleted the brogyul source . Its unfair Dear @Kautilya3:, The brogyul has four village that is Dha ,hanu ,Garkone and Darchik Village and it's Hamlet. The residence of Brogyul is Buddhist Dard Similarly , Aryan valley is a land of Buddhist Dard and it has a four village Dha ,Hanu ,Garkone and Darchik .

Conclusion : Both have same villages And both are inhabited of Buddhist Dard . So it means they are referring the same. Region as a commen sense if all conditions are met . Why are you deleting Brogyul from Aryan valley native name ? Minaro123 (talk) 18:56, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Darchik to Hanu is 20 km. The book talks about 150 km-long valley. I can't be sure what it is talking about. This is not a strong source for the topic anyway. The author looks like a linguist, not a geographer. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:05, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Even his linguistic skills may not be that great. For instance, he translates 'brog as hill. But the real meaning is much more specialised. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:15, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: I was going to deleted the page after i wrote because I wanted to write much more detailed discussion ok these topic page , sorry i found your reply Before i deleted it ,so i am replying here: Let's give a description about these region first . 1: Darchik has many hamlet that is Sanache and Hordass .

 Garkon has many hamlets that is Gurgurdo ( Gargara nalla),Garkon,etc .

Hanu has many hamlets: hanu upper valley and hanu lower valley . In hanu upper valley ,it is further divided into small hamlets like Farol, kaskas etc. The hanu upper valley is extended upto the chorbat area , the people of hanu have a grazing land there if you look at Google map . The top point of hanu is called Hanu Brog where they rear cattles. The top point also have a Indian Army's security forces .

2: the last point west of village is Gargara nalla ( Gurgurdo) . From the Gurgurdo we can see a Pakistan village , very near .

Its a military area .

3: the last point of East area is : hanu gongma ,Chorbate area .

There is indeed a approx 150 km away if you measures .

4: Darchik Village is not the farthest place of Aryan valley . 5: Hanu has many hamlet : hanu thang ,hanu upper ,hanu lower ,and hanu brog .

The hanu brog is the end point where there is a Pakistan border .

6: we can't doubt a author, because a well known author have a proper research on ground reality ,reads history book on the same topic and then the author writes . 7: Brog means hindi word "pahadi ". brog means "hill" in local ladakhi langauge . "Thang" means plan area in ladakhi langauge . The opposite of "Brog" is "thang" . So brokpa means ' a person who lives on hilly area ' , which is at higher atitude than plan area. Because in past they used to live in the higher area ,that's the reason they are called Brokpa . There are many author who has said these . So the writer is right . 8: DD sharma seems to indeed have read the history of Dha hanu District because as a native resident of these region ,I can confirm that she is right , i requests you to please visit these Region and you will get to know, DD sharma must have taken any geographer because any well known writer can't quite anything without a proper Research . We have to beleive the reliability of the author . She passes as a relaible author according to the wikepedia policies . Thank youMinaro123 (talk) 19:41, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Gurgurdo to Hanu Gongma is 44 km. But now we are counting "width" as "length" as well. I have no idea how 50 km. width comes in.

I don't know about "doubting" authors. But we are not required to include everything everybody writes. (That is a link you need to read). And WP:ONUS as well. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 23:54, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

• squint:: @Kautilya3: doesn't your own article, Brokpa people, have much the same etymology? This seems inconsistent, to be polite. I suggest you self-revert, and remind you that you are editing disruptively in a DS article, and can be presumed to know that, since you templated me just for commenting on the AfD, lol Elinruby (talk) 20:58, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: 1: Gurgurdo is not a one particular place , gurgurdo also includes The mountainous part of the region , we call "Brog" to these upper most land , The part of gurgudo is border with the village of Pakistan , People have a grazing land in these gurgudo Brog . And second thing,i am repeating again ,there are more land under hanu gongma , the higher land of hanu gongma is also occupied by the people of hanu ,people have a grazing land there . The people have a land there , for example: hanu Brog, hanu hamgdangsmin and their Brog is border to Chorbate area . Kautilya3 , it seems that you are not familiar with the border region of Aryan valley region ,

Yet with your original research , you are trying your best to prove the author wrong .

And not only hanu , The dha village is not only which is shown on google map , It is a border area ,so there are some restriction . The dha brog again has many part ,one of the part is Yaldor sector , and Dha brog called nirdha .

DD sharma also quoted that " most of its area are mountainous region . She is correct , because the "Highland " of Dha ,hanu ,Garkone and Darchik is called Brog . For example: Dha ,Brog .Hanu Brog, Garkon Brog ,Darchik Brog . There are mostly mountains region in the Brog ,yet there are few ground of land among the mountain region where Brokpa take their cattle for grazing . 2: since gurgurdo Brog ,Dha brog and Hanu Brog and Garkhon Brog is Border with Pakistan region ,you will see a military security there . The tourist are only allowed in the lower land of Dha ,Garkon,Darchik and Hanu . They are not allowed to go in their Brog (Highland) of their village because of security issue . And second thing, Brokpa used to live in nirdha and hamgdangsmin which is at the highest altitude somewhere near a glacier after their migration . There are many lakes in the dha ,Hanu ,Garkon and Darchik which are not opened for India tourist and foreigner tourist because of security issue . The only local people are allowed there who have a grazing land . Brokpa have stayed there for hundred of year and they have made a grazing land there , brokpa were hunter at beginning ,later they started a farming and grazing there . Brokpa used to celebrate Bono-na festival at Malmal khutu in Dha brog which is still mentioned in many stories of Brokpa , because of them staying in that area for many years ,the grass are still refused to grow in their celebration point of Bono-na festival. And same in hanu too.

Because of them living in the hilly areas for hundred of year , The are called Brokpa by the people of Ladakh .

And the land of Brokpa is called Brok Yul . If you came in land ,the older generation people of Ladakh such as Ladakhi and Balti still call these area Brokyul and the people is referred as Brokpa . I hope now all of your confusion are cleared . Some part of the brokpa land is occupied by Indian security forces And they have a camp of army there . Inspite of the Indian army area occupied these land ,yet we say that these are the land of Brokpa . Some villagers of Brokpa get a year compensation from Indian government because of occupying there land .

Since it is a Indian border ,the upper part(Brog) of the Dha ,hanu ,Garkone and Darchik are not allowed for tourists etc since 1947. However ,the author needs to take permission from Indian security agencies to get a geographical description about these region . So DD sharma have mentioned in detail about the Brogyul , So i feel she must have done Research . Some of the research done by DD sharma is matching with the British time geographer . For example: both have said ,it is somewhere between 9000 - 10000 feet altitude . So DD sharma geographic description deserve to be included in Aryan valley . Minaro123 (talk) 05:48, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Discussion on Brogyul

Kautilya3 quotted "Aryan Valley cannot be equated with Brog-yul; the term "Aryan valley" does not appear in the source". After he deleted Brogyul he quoted the above sentence in quotation mark , He deleted the brogyul source without any discussion in talk page . Its unfair and undiscusion move made by kautilya3. Kautilya3 should have had a discussion before he deleted the content . My request is to Respected @Spinningspark:, @Elinruby:. Please check these matter ,it is a serious concern .

1:Brogyul is a joint name of four villages Dha ,Hanu ,Garkone and Darchik and it's Hamlet. The four villages makes a Area or region . Brogyul is a old name for these region/area in 1990s . The author described The inhabitants of these region are Buddhist Dard . The author research on these Brogyul region and the author of the reliable book calculated the langth and wide of these region . The length were approximately 150 km and wide was 50 km . And it also tells about the geographic description for these region /area.

2:Now the same area is named with Aryan valley .

Aryan valley also region has Four villages : Dha ,Hanu ,Garkon and Darchik . And it is a also home to Buddhist Dard.

From point 1 and point 2 : It is proved that Aryan valley also has a 150 km length and 50 km wide. And the geographic of these region will remain same too .

But kautilya3 has deleted it without any throughly discussion in a talk page . I beleive it is a wrong move . So i requests all of you please add the geographic of these Brogyul into Aryan valley . And please have a look in detail at these move . Thank you Minaro123 (talk) 19:20, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Please see WP:SYNTHESIS, which is a form of WP:OR. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:42, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Reply:

Here the source 1 is saying A : And source 2 is also saying A . 1: A(Brogyul)= is located at lower indus valley.It is a home of a Buddhist Dards .It is a four village that is Dha,Hanu ,Garkone and Darchik .

1: A(Aryan valley)= is located at lower indus valley.It is a home of a Buddhist Dards .It is a four village that is Dha,Hanu ,Garkone and Darchik .

Here both sources are saying A .

ARYAN VALLEY IS a name of same region as Brogyul.

Its like saying :

India is region made up of 28 state .the states starts from j&k to Kanyakumari.

Bharat is a region made up of 28 state . the states starts from j&k to Kanyakumari.

Bharat could be a old name , But both are specifying same region . Example 2: A person named Ankit from India , his name is Ankit in India and he has DNA code 'Abbc'. He moved to USA in search of Job , He adopted a English name ' John' after he reached USA .

 Now the question is  is John same as Ankit .

Some person might argue that he isn't the sam person , however after research we got to know that John's DNA matched with Ankit dna ,so it proves he is a same person . Similarly , Aryan valley has four villages. That is Dha ,Hanu ,Garkon and Darchik .it is home to a Buddhist Dard. And Brogyul has four villages. That is Dha ,Hanu ,Garkon and Darchik .it is home to a Buddhist Dard.It both refers to a same region. Minaro123 (talk) 20:26, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: You continue to misunderstand many things. First of all, they aren't locally known as Brokpa people; this is what the Ladakhi called them, and the name has persisted in some of the more superficial travelogues. The endonym is "Minaro" and based on wikipedia policy, that is what we should use, especially when the alternative is generic. . Second, neither of your two sources seems to contain the word "neologism". Thirdly, you seem to have inserted a spelling mistake. Fourthly, your original research does not trump Minaro123's source, although I have been meaning to point out that surely he means km<2>. However, this is not a reason for the sort of disruptive edits that you have just wreaked upon the article. I have already vetted those two sources, and if you want to write up your ethnocentric objections to the term, the place to do that is either in the Etymology section or if you prefer in a dedicated section on whatever Hindu nationalist plot you like. These suspicions is a woman who spent three weeks in the area cannot reasonably be considered the most important thing about the place.

More to the point, your editing on this subject seems rather POINTy. How many times have you tried to delete this?

And yes, you absolutely should have discussed, as your edit was very much against consensus. Elinruby (talk) 20:39, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Elinruby, If you have been here long enough you should know that article talk pages are meant for discussing the content of the pages, not for discussing editor conduct. So, please stick to the content.

• What "wikipedia policy" are you alluding to?
• Do you disagree that it is a neologism? If so, please explain why. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 22:45, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

@Minaro123: I will rewrite the lede to reflect the article as it stands, which is what it should do. I have some changes I want to make to the body first. Kautilya3 is mistaken, though. Your source for the "head of the valley" term does not need to say "Aryan Valley". I'd revert her, but I didn't notice it soon enough, and frankly it is better to simply ignore him or her. I think given the structure I have in mind, that that should perhaps be in the Etymology section, or perhaps Jurisdictions. Elinruby (talk) 22:10, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: and yet you do not seem to feel a need to discus article content. You should think about that. We can discuss your behaviour somewhere more appropriate if yo u insist but I'd rather spend the time undoing the damage you have done. It would be best if you were to reflect on your beaviour and improve it without needing to be sactioned.Elinruby (talk) 23:22, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Also, please fix the indent on your remarks above Thankyouverymuch Elinruby (talk) 23:25, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Elinruby, I am sorry that I have to repeat my questions:

• What "wikipedia policy" are you alluding to?
• Do you disagree that it is a neologism? If so, please explain why. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 23:59, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Meaning of Brokpa

@Kautilya3:, Elinruby Dear kautilya3 , as you have said Author DD sharma ,hasn't quoted the real meaning of Brog , According to the dictionary link sent by you , i have seen འབྲོག (Brog) also means highland . As DD sharma quoted ,Brog means Hill . Isn't the "hill" is synonymous to " Highland". They both refers to the same thing . Brok = hill . Pa = a person who lives there . Brog+ pa = a person who lives in hill . She is correct dear kautilya3,. Please don't doubt about her Knowlege . She is a responsible and a famous author . And second thing, Tibetic langauge has many dilect such has Ladakhi,balti , zanskari, shamskat. The meanings slightly keep getting changes in different dilect with respect to place . So don't expect a Tibetan langauge exact definition for the far flung dailect like Ladakhi ,balti etc. There is a slightly different in meaning in the dialect of a any langauge , however the overall meaning sense is same. For example: In Tibetan ཤེས་རིགས།( shes rigs ) means Knowlege. However In Ladakhi ཤེས་རིགས།( shes rigs) means culture . In these case the meaning are drastically changed, If you doubt about my Tibetan langauge meaning ,then please consult any realible dictionary or maybe an expert ,you would find the same meaning as i quoted.

Thank you Minaro123 (talk) 21:06, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Ok, I take your word that she is a famous author. But she hasn't explained why the Brokpa are supposed to have this name. She says, "It is because of the uncultivable rocky land occupied by them and of the pastoral and nomadic life led by them", which corresponds to what you call the "Tibetan" meaning of the term. What proportion of Brokpa live in the hills?

And if "Brok-yul" is supposed to mean "hill country" how is this part of Ladakh any more "hilly" than the rest? Why is she talking about Karakoram and Hindukush which are nowhere near here? Where does she get 150 km. from? None of this makes any sense. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 23:11, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

• Pretty sure I have seen this in several places. It can be sourced if it needs to be. Don't let this person upset you. Elinruby (talk) 21:58, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: After the migration ,Brokpa used to live in nirdha and area like hamgdangsmin, these area are at the top of the Dha and hanu village .These place is a highland and there are little cultivable land . Most of its region are mountainous and glacier . There are many natural lakes are these region which could be still seen in Google map if you zoom up. Malmalkhutu is a dancing place of the brokpa people ,where bono-na festival is celebrated for thousands of year before they finally settled down near the indus river . Since India -pakistan conflict,these area were falling under border area so Indian security forces occupied many of the Brokpa land at the top . So Respected DD sharma has quoted " It is because of the uncultivable rocky land occupied by them and of the pastoral and nomadic life led by them" It is true that they led a pastoral and nomadic life in past . Author is using a past tense , " Led" by them . It means brokpa have led such life in past . Here she is not using " leading" by them . However, some Brokpa also do grazing in their head of the village which she have mentioned later of the sentence which you haven't quoted.

There are more sources who quoted the same thing and i will share you their reference . And people read about the origin history of Brokpa cited by an reliable source. 2: Second most important thing which i have not quotted yet , Brokpa is mostly used at slur term to refer the people of Buddhist Dards by ladakhi and Purigpa ethinic group in Ladakh .

THE Buddhist Dards PEOPLE refer themselves 'Minaro ', they never refer themselves brokpa which is a name given by the Ladakhi . i haven't said these yet because I am still searching for the reference to claim these .I wonder why no author wrote about these .But if we look up ,there has to be a reference to cited these . THE PEOPLE of ladakh who are predominantly Tibetan in blood such as Ladakhi ,balti , purigpa . Just because Brokpa are not physically and linguistically not same to them ,they see brokpa as a inferior people . I have seen these was also mentioned by many famous author . Even ladakhi king , tsewang namgail in 16 century have demanded forced labour to the people of hanu , Since the leaders tho-shali refused ,he even buried him alive and to kill the Brokpa (Dard)nationalism . He even forbidden to speak a Brokskat langauge and reported a spies if anyone speaks there ,he strictly punish the people if they don't speak ladakhi instead of Brokskat . To kill the ethnic group of brokpa ,A king even settled a Tibetan people in Yaldor .

The both example are cited by famous author . I am a native Brogpa so i have more experience about such things , Besides being a native ,i also reads history of these brokpa tribe written by author . I also remember many anthropology visiting and interviewing our elders . Brokpa have led a hard life because of being minority in the land of Tibetan centric neighbour . It is only recently things have become normal. 3: Both DD Sharma and author in 16 the century said These region has ravine and Valley. 4: both have said these region is a border to Baltistan . And baltistan has a karakoram mountain. So it borders kakoram mountain . 5:Both author have said Garkone is a warmest place and at the altitude of 9000.

6: conclusion: Dd Sharma's geographic description deserve to be in articles.

Minaro123 (talk) 07:01, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

I have found a reference for Minaro, but haven't added it yet. Elinruby (talk) 12:16, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Three, four or five villages

I suspect four is correct, but would like to find the primary source for the government name. Older sources sometimes say three or five villages in Dah Hanu; I suspect this is just the British being British, but would like to discuss this. I have removed the number from the lede but am not against it being returned if this sounds like the thing to do. Note that this is a minor issue that I would not yet have concerned myself with were I not already in the lede removing errors. So this should not be our priority, but as I come back across the sources with a different number I will add them here. Elinruby (talk) 12:26, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Unexplained reverts

Minaro123, These reverts are highly improper. You can only revert edits if you have policy-based reasons, and you need to state those reasons when reverting, either in the edit summary or the talk page. You cannot simply remove reliably sourced content that satisfies WP:NPOV simply because you don't like it.

RegentsPark, can you please intervene and explain the policies? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:05, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

The policy is that you do not make edits against consensus without discussion. And then complain about a lack of discussion when you are reverted, and revert back to the version you created without consensus. The policy is that we edit in good faith, without complaining about statements we made ourselves in an ethnology article that we are trying to own. I have just warned you on your talk page, again, without prejudice to any future DS complaint. It is important that you actually read the article and the discussions if you want to participate here, and you do not seem to have done this yet. Elinruby (talk) 14:26, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

You can only revert edits if you have policy-based reasons makes it sound like you have to be able to quote some passage of a Wikipedia policy in order to be able to revert an edit. You yourself removed some content with an edit summary that did not explain the reason for the removal, and those edits were reverted. Per WP:BRD, you made a series of bold edits that were reverted (some of them multiple times now), so now would be the time to discuss the edit and why it belongs in the article and to get a consensus for its inclusion before reinserting it. It seems like this most recent revert did reintroduce some grammar and spelling/capitalization issues, but the "neologism" change had already been reverted and you restored it and other challenged materials without supporting sources or an explanation; repeating Do you disagree that it is a neologism? If so, please explain why. over and over on the talk page is not an explanation. You've cited WP:ONUS so I'm sure you're aware that it's up to you to establish why it belongs, not for others to disprove something that sources don't support. There's a lot to unpack but just starting at the top you say it's reliably sourced content, but what source verifies the use of the word neologism? None of them attached to the statement appears to support that. - Aoidh (talk) 14:37, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

It seems to me that Kautilya3 made an effort ot explain the name "Aryan valley," whereas these mass-reverts don't. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 14:49, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Yeah to be clear I don't think the sweeping revert was the best choice, but I also see some things that were reverted that should be discussed, like the neologism and the number of villages, which seems to fluctuate from source to source. - Aoidh (talk) 14:52, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. Regarding the "neologism" change had already been reverted ([24]]), the sentence

Aryan valley is a government designation for the historical Dha-Hanu District

is not supported by the sources, from which the following quotes are given:

• ""I paid visit to the Dha Hanu district (the home of these so called Buddhist Dards on my way down to India from Ladak (western Tibet) last winter (1876)." (the soutce is from 1878...)
• "The following places — villages and hamlets — are inhabited by the Buddhist Dards: Grugurdo, Sanacha, Urdus, Darchik, Garkon, Dah, Phindur, Baldes, Hanu, Lower and Upper."

I see no problem with the term "neologism." How recent is the term "Aryan valley"? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 14:58, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) Aoidh, the edit of mine you point out was just a reformatting of citations. There was no content and change, and nothing needed to be explained.

The "neologism" is quite straightforward. The name has been coined basically within the last decade, for a place that has been inhabited with the same group of people for almost a thousand years. Citations demonstrate that. The first citation, published in 2014, was written to explain the current developments at that time. It was the first time the term appeared in print.

The number of villages is not particularly controversial. If there are sources that disagree, they can be added. Thanks. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:03, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Simply being a new phrase does not make something a neologism (at least per Linguistics Encyclopedia, ISBN 9781134597000 page 519). It must also be limited in use or not widely accepted, and what is "new" and "limited" is subjective enough that it needs a source since it's being challenged. Are the names of locations even considered neologisms? I don't see anything referring to Astana (or its brief stint as Nur-Sultan) as a neologism. - Aoidh (talk) 15:25, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Neologisms enter a language organically. This was done by government fiat, and may be one of the reasons the region is demanding representation on the Hill Council. The connection to the tourist industry is sourced and not really disputed, but seriously? The opinion of one woman who spent three weeks in the area is not the most important thing about the region, even if she is an anthropologist now and the source is RS. More to the point, the tourism initiative is not yet in the article -- although it would indeed seem to belong to a discussion of the local economy, and I cited it myself in the AfD. More to the point, the lede us supposed to summarize the article, not dwell on a purported Hindu nationalist plot that isn't in the article yet. Drive-by injection of PoV into the lede of an article without discussing or bothering to substantiate it in the body is the epitome of disruptive editing. *My* editing has certainly been disrupted Elinruby (talk) 15:17, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Aryan valley#Etymology:

The name "Aryan valley" was coined for the region in the aftermath of the Kargil War, as the state government tried to promote tourism in the war-torn border region in an effort of economic regeneration.[13] Around 2010, the Brokpa travel agents decided to market the region under the name "Aryan Valley". They believed that without such packaging, the Indian tourists would not be motivated to walk to Brokpa villages that are tucked away in the mountains.[14] The state government also induced the trend by projecting the Brokpa people as "pure specimens of the Aryan race".[6]

Regarding one woman [...] even if she is an anthropologist now, what's the relevance of the sexe of the author? But if you want more: Mainak Chakraborty, Santanu Mitra, and Harashawaradhana (2022), The Strategic Construction of Aryan Identity of Brokpas: An Anthropological Perspective, Journal of the Anthropological Survey of India. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 15:29, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, J; nice to see you here! TrangaBellam (talk) 15:53, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

one graduate student, if you must, shrug Elinruby (talk) 18:30, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Re neologism: the examples given in the sources I consulted include "robot" and "cyberspace" Nothing there about a government renaming a location or anything even close. Elinruby (talk) 18:38, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Agreement to proposed discuss-first rule

I was going to make a number of changes based on the WP:BRD rule, but since the atmosphere on the page is no longer collaborative I think the rule is necessary and will abide by it as well.

I was about to source "nominally Buddhist" in my rewrite of the lede, and I have a number of other tabs open for sourcing. But here is the one for "nominally Buddhist": long quote from Stray Aryans in Thibet, Shaw, Journal Ben. Asiat Svet., 1878 in Tribes of the Hindoo Koosh, John Biddulph, 1880, Publisher: Akadem. Druck- u. Verlagsanstalt Original from:the University of California via Google Books, p.51}} Elinruby (talk) 14:43, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

PS it would be best to also have a newer source to attest that this is still the case, and if anyone can find the Shaw article we can quote it directly. Elinruby (talk) 14:49, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia works by editors adding or editing reliably souruced NPOV content, not by obtaining other editors' permission.

If other editors disagree that it is reliably sourced or fails NPOV then a discussion takes place. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:16, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

No. There is consensus o the page to discuss first. Stop trying to overturn consensus and for the love of God please read the article. Elinruby (talk) 15:33, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Nominally Buddhist

Elinruby Yes ,i have a Shaws articles with me , yes he is still right in today's date too .Today the Minaro are nominally Buddhist but also following their ancestral religion , there were a research paper of recently whichh says the same thing ,i will put it here . https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09735070.2008.11886318 Minaro123 (talk) 15:52, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

This source doesn't call them "nominally Buddhist". So I don't see why it has been cited.

We can only use terms like "nominally Buddhis" in the lead if the RS overwhelmingly describe them so. There are numerous sources that describe them as Buddhist without any such qualification. See WP:DUE. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:25, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

@Kautilya3:, In many sources there is a written that brokpa practice their ancient Minaro (ancient religion) as well as buddhism , right? I think you agree ok these . And second thing 1: are they true Buddhist I'd they also practice their ancient religion too? The person is a strictly Buddhist if they follows only all the rituals of Buddhism. Any person would be considered a superficially BUDDHIST if they practice another religion side by side . 3: the were a book or research paper done by Bhasin who quotted that brokpa practice two religions side by side lamaism as well as their ancient religion. Minaro123 (talk) 17:42, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

4: we need to describe their ancient religion as well other than buddhism atleast , because it is quotted by many reliable source , we can't ignore their ancient religion . Since it is quotted by research paper , we need to atleast mention it .Minaro123 (talk) 17:44, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

And Aoidh removed that, which which I am reasonably content. I was still trying to make the point that the government refers to area in this manner whether or not it is talking about tourism. But that was defensive editing based on the flak this name has drawn. As I said below, it is time to move on. This is just what the government calls the place. I dislike what a number of governments call a number of places, including the one where I live but nonetheless that is what the Ladakh Autonomous Territory calls this one.i do not see this as out weighed by a grad student's speculations, when it comes to due weight. It is possible that she is right, but the last I looked -- I have been offline for a while -- more than half the article is devoted to this conspiracy theory. People live there, grow crops there, practice a religion there, and demand better representation there. I think Bhan's speculations are important, as I gather that the current government is right wing, but this article came out of AFD less than 12 hours ago. You know what would be useful? Some news coverage about the change of name. I don't know what languages you speak other than English, but the Union Territory of Ladakh does publish announcements in English, and that is the government that I believe did the renaming. Just a suggestion. We could also use some more sources on the infrastructure improvements. Elinruby (talk) 18:26, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

What exactly are you responsing to now? Second time you respond in thw rong thread. You make a confused impression to me. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 18:49, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

@Joshua Jonathan: This section appears to have been refactored, or maybe the page. I don't have the time or the patience to fish through the history right now. I was answering your comment about how I replaced "term created by the tourist industry" (or whatever it said exactly) with "government designation" Elinruby (talk) 00:31, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Update

I just made a few copyedits I believe to be uncontroversial. I also removed neologism again since the editor who made it did not wait to discuss. Just expressed an opinion and rushed in. Elinruby (talk) 15:36, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

I removed the term "neologism"; you replaced sourced info with text that is not supported by the source: "Aryan valley is a government designation." Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 15:44, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Unless sources can support that it's a government designation it shouldn't be in the lede sentence, especially if it's not solely a government designation which seems to be the case. I've removed it for that reason. To give an example, Washington, D.C. is a FA and it doesn't and wouldn't say anything about being a government designation in the lede to describe what it is, even though it technically is a name designated by the government. - Aoidh (talk) 15:50, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

What's more, the IE-source says "They have demanded that the government set up a tribal hostel and declare the “Aryan valley” a heritage village to boost tourism." The phrase Just expressed an opinion is not really helpfull if you want to reach consensus; it's dismissive of the sources and of your fellow editors. Regarding the edit-summary by Elinruby diff Per talk page; discuss first. Its use is also not confined to the tourist industry. Please read the article, the references and the AfD before attempting to right great alleged wrongs: if you think that the pharse "Aryan valley" is also used by the government, you can add it, with sources which state this; but you cannot remove sourced info because you think it's incomplete; this is what these sources say, including your source. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 15:51, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

@Joshua Jonathan: it's freaking already in the article, which is why I questioned whether you have read it. Aoidh (talk · contribs) if you want to say that it is a collection of villages, versus a government name for a collection of villages, I have no real problem with that. My point is simply that it is inaccurate to say that the name is something the tourist industry made up, even if the tourist industry does want some help from the government. since apparently I must I will come back and point out the sources, for example those discussed below in the electrification section, in contexts that have zero, zip, nada to do with tourism.

As for collaboration, you are missing the fact that the author and I, afaik the only people who have had a good look at sources, agreed to discuss any changes before making them. So far I seem to be the only person respecting this, which is resulting in a plethora of ill-founded changes. For instance, wanting a heritage village status does not mean that this is the reason for the name change. I can't rule it out but it's certainly not actually sourced except as a conspiracy theory, which the very same source says escapes the Local and Union territory government Elinruby (talk) 16:27, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

What exactly is already in the article? This?:

The name "Aryan valley" was coined for the region in the aftermath of the Kargil War, as the state government tried to promote tourism in the war-torn border region in an effort of economic regeneration. (Bhan 2018, p.84)

Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 16:31, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Electrification

I have a source, which I would call a periodical but not necessarily scholarly, to the effect that as of quite recently the electricity was only on three hours a day in Dah Hanu. Another about the electrification program is cited in the article but only in support of the name, due to the hostile editing environment around this topic. I think we need to get away from this --Aryan Valley just is what the Union Territory government calls the area. I have also seen another about cell phone service, which also uses the name Aryan Valley. That one I will need to find again, but I am fairly sure it was in Voice of Ladakh Elinruby (talk) 15:48, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Dha hanu district

@Joshua Jonathan:, Dear Joshua,Why you have deleted the dha hanu district . Well the name for these Four village ,dha ,hanu , Garkon and Darchik are inhibited. By the Buddhist Dard. The author of 19th century have written all the Hamlets of each villages . He have written that 1:Dha village includes phindur, sanit and bades. 2:Hanu villages has the upper and lower . 3: Garkone and Darchik and their hamlet are in another category . Even today . 1:Dha and uts Hamlet form a Gram Panchayat village . 2: Hanu valley and it's Hamlet form a panchayat villages . 3: Garkone and Darchik and it's hamlet form a Gram Panchayat government.

This was a Dha hanu district . The Aryan valley is just a rename of Dha hanu district . So please have these in articles , Please don't devalue the Importance of Dha hanu district . As it was independent later ut was occupied by ladakhi army . Every thing i quotted about dha hanu district here can be cited through Shaws Article book. Please include it in an articles . Thank you .Minaro123 (talk) 16:10, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

I have no objection to the Dha-Hanu district. I also don't have an objection to the "Brog-yul" term if it is clear that it also meant the four villages. (I suspect that Brog-yul would have included Ganokh, Chulichan, perhaps even Silmo and Lalung.) -- Kautilya3 (talk)

@Kautilya3: , DD sharma quoted : "But contrary of Dards of lower valley ,The Dards of Brogyul have,though overtly have embraced Buddhism.which was imposed on them by a Buddhist king of ladakh to deprive of them their seperate identity" . Lalung and silmo is not a brokpa village at all . But there is only a story that Two household in silmo is Brokpa and two household in Lalung too is believed to be settled by Brokpa . It is cited by a British explorer Shaw as well as Rohit vohra . Lalung silmo has a population of an around more than 2000, Having a brokpa population of 10 to 20 people doesn't make them brokpa village . They are not considered a brokpa village first of all, Neither those two household each speaks brokskat langauge ,nor they follows any culture associated to past . it is just a story and these village are hardly covered by any articles . If Dd Sharma would have counted Ganokh ,Lalung ,silmo ,she would have definitely mentioned . ,however she didn't . Ganokh is not a part of central ladakh .Ganokh is clearly a part of Baltistan since the battle of king Jamyang namgail and Sher Khan anchan .

Minaro123 (talk) 17:15, 2 January 2023 (UTC) 2: DD Sharma quoted: "Although the Drokpas Da Da do, chulichan and of few more village of lower indus indus valley too have embraced Islam and have given up their brokpa dress and culture too,yet have not given up their Dardic tonque." DD sharma has quoted lowed indus valley instead of Brokyul for the village of chulichan etc .

DD Sharma would have used the Brogyul instead of Lower indus valley if he/she meant it a part of Brogyul .

2: Second thing : He/she have used Dard of brogyul who accepted Buddhism . And the Buddhist villages are only Dha ,hanu ,Garkone and Darchik .

3: she meant Brogyul for the Buddhist Dard village . So we need to add Brogyul description from my earlier edit . Minaro123 (talk) 18:28, 2 January 2023 (UTC) 4: for now we can atleast add ,it is region of valley and ravine which is also quotted by the British explorer that there are valleys and ravine in Buddhist Dards village . 5: Both of us agree that Gurgurdo is bordered to Baltistan 's karakoram mountain . 6: for now we can add these two elements about the geographical aspect of these region . 7: for now ,we will leave the lengths and width of the brogyul region aside . 8: we will add the length and wide too soon ,but after a series of discussion. 9: now you should add these with source Minaro123 (talk) 18:47, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Wholesale deletion of culture section

I fail to see how this is "synthesis", unless the contention is that the Minaro have no culture. Remember that culture which is being used as a basis for tourism? Please explain your objections to the "clueless drafting", which, btw, you should have done first. Elinruby (talk) 16:30, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

You cannot be using government-published sources to portray elements of government-sponsored propaganda in wiki-voice thereby conferring an air of legitimacy. The museum and its contents need to be studied by scholars; until such sources arrive, we can, at most, write a single sentence on the existence of such a museum in the section on politics. TrangaBellam (talk) 16:44, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

@TrangaBellam: How do you that this is government sponsored propaganda ? Is there any written evidence then show me ? Don't put your original research here and wikepedia is not a place for orginal research. Minaro123 (talk) 17:01, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

If you do not indent (read the link) your posts, I will revert your edits.

See the etymology section on the role played by the Government in creation of the neologism. Regards, TrangaBellam (talk) 17:05, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

And the three sources listed in the Bibliography section. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:07, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

And mind you that this whole page got created by using the argument that it is not about people but about "land"! -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:10, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

It is about a community. That doesn't prevent the community from having a museum any more than it prevents the community from having a post office. Elinruby (talk) 19:10, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Representation

Perhaps for the politics section [https://www.outlookindia.com/national/bjp-led-leh-chapter-delivers-a-shocker-passes-resolutions-for-constitutional-safeguards-news-236152[ Elinruby (talk) 16:32, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Reference error

Please fix the reference error created by the recent undiscussed changes Elinruby (talk) 16:42, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Ffs, can you stop opening a new thread for every post you make? TrangaBellam (talk) 16:51, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Why? My annoyance about the creation of this reference error is quite separate from my annoyance over people not reading the talk page, for example. Completely different topic. Elinruby (talk) 19:05, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Come to think of it, maybe he can't find the reference because you deleted it. I guess I should go take a look at the current state of the article. Elinruby (talk) 19:07, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Disputed identity

Elinruby: you added a disputed-tag diff to the term "identity," with the comment Nobody thinks they are Aryan except some misguided tourists, but without a correspinding talkpage-thread to discuss this. I fail to see what is dubious about the term "identity"; obviously you mean to state that "The identity of Brokpa people as "Aryans"" is dubious. A lot of [eople seem to agree with you on that; what they don't doubt is that the Brokpa's are presented as being Aryans. Surely you don't mean to say that it is dubious if the Brokpa's are presented in such a way? Could you please elaborate your doubts, and make clear what's the relevance, and accuracy, of this tag? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 17:12, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

The Minaro don't claim to be Aryan (or Bropka for that matter). The consensus among scholars, as I understand it, is that the Aryan migration theory does not apply. My issue is specifically with the word "identity". If you were to say "conflated with" or "portrayed as" I would probably agree with the statement. Hopefully that helps. We don't actually know why the name was changed. It could indeed be a cynical attempt to divert tourist revenue from Kasmir in Pakistan, or it could be simple ignorance. Remember, the Minaro are a cultural and linguistic isolate, and very much a minority in Ladakh, whose development was impeded by the [Kargill War]]. But their "identity" is not Aryan. Elinruby (talk) 18:48, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Mona Bhan (2014), “Aryan Valley” and the Politics of Race and Religion in Kashmir:

Brogpas claim that they are “Aryans”—people with long noses, high cheek bones, and ample body hair, perceptions that are fueling Kargil’s postwar industry. Domestic and international visits to Brogpa villages are now packaged as explorations of the “Aryan Valley.” Younger Brogpas are actively cultivating their Aryan identities by adding the suffix “Aryan” to their personal Facebook names or by setting up online portals to showcase their Aryan heritage.

Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 11:51, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Overview

I doubt that any of the editors who have edited this page have read scholars like Vohra, Peissel et al. So, a few points:

• Many sub-standard ethnographer and anthropologists — including Vohra and Peissel — have published scholarship on how and why the Brokpas of the region are the Last Aryans standing on Earth. Linguistics, comparative mythology, ... - you name it and I have seen it. These scholars went largely unchallenged, working in the backwaters of history and scratching each other's back.
  Yet, none of them (iirc, Vohra's ethnography was in the 1980s) spoke of "Aryan Valley" in particular.

• Kargil was the first war to be televised live in India. It coincided with a media-boom and in the aftermath, reporters got sent to far-flung places to describe those who habited those border-zones; the government was particularly supportive of such profiling for obvious reasons. The reporters came back with exotic descriptions, often borrowing from colonial accounts with élan and faring not much better than the EIC bureaucrats of the 18th century.
  To an extent, it was these reports that mainstreamed the Aryan-ness of the region in popular discourse; this was a popular topic of discourse in Hindu-Right Usenet groups in early 2000s before dropping from the limelight. It is probable that some reporter might have even used the word "Aryan Valley" but it was not yet a common term.

• C. 2010, the government decided to allow unfettered access into the villages. This would not only integrate the inhabitants — who as of late 2000s, had to be paid by the local Indian Army camp for daily subsistence — into the Indian Economy but also normalize India's border-disputes.
  However, we are talking about remote areas and the tourists were expected to give a cold eye.

• In response, the local inhabitants, who hoped to make a living of tourism, began to aggressively market themselves as Aryans and the place as Aryan valley. The local government latched onto it, too. There is a sudden explosion of "Aryan Valley" in tourism brochures, local news, and even anonymous government bytes around this time. In 2014, came the BJP government whose political agenda found a partner in the most unexpected of places; they were more than happy to play along in this charade.
  Thus, today's "Aryan Valley" and the museums.

I expect my narrative to align with Bhan and other scholars who have covered the subject from a critical perspective, and maybe, supplement them. Regards, TrangaBellam (talk) 17:58, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

I don't disagree with most of that. However, unless you have some sources about how the renaming took place, I question this part of your narrative. The Union Territory uses the term with respect to apricot harvesting and construction of cell phone towers, not just tourism. I think that some of the editors in this discussion are relying overmuch on Bhan. She is a reliable source, but her conspiracy theory is not yet in the article. Note that I am not saying that it shouldn't be. But until it's in the article it shouldn't be in the lede. And we don't have a section about the tourist industry at all yet.

Speaking of more important things, could you explain to me your edits summarized as "clueless drafting" and "synth"? Because that culture, whose description is admittedly incomplete, is the basis for the tourist initiatives which we seem to all agree should be in the article Elinruby (talk) 19:02, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

What exactly are you referring to when you use the term "conspiracy theory"? And why? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 19:17, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

My query too! TrangaBellam (talk) 20:07, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Etymology section

• I have read one paper of Vohra ("Buddhist Dards of Ladakh") and some of the colonial administrators. To some extent the use of the "Aryan" label is reasonable if the effort is to distinguish them from the surrounding Tibetic people, from whom they differ in language, culture and appearance. However, when the supposed anthropologists start talking about "ancient Aryan tribes", "unique specimens of pure Aryan race" etc., they are going well beyond reasonable. (Of these, I only know from Mona Bhan's summaries.)
• Secondly, the Brokpa themselves have no doubt been aware of their own distinctiveness in the midst of the Tibetic people from the beginning. They have kept apart from them as far as possible and retained their customs and identity. This is certainly not made up by any anthropologists. The "Aryan" label however was a British invention, and, by now, it has been imbibed by the Brokpa themselves.
• I am afraid however that your condensation of the Aryan valley#Etymology section is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It doesn't recognise that the Brokpa themselves believe themselves to be uniquely "Aryan", and even removed the "Aryan valley" term, whose etymology this section is supposed to present! -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:30, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

  Where does Mona Bhan write about summaries of these anthropologists? I had missed it. They were cognizant of their distinctiveness but as you say, no Brokpa informer did claim to ethnographers about being "Aryans"! This imbibing happened in the past decade.

  Ofcourse, I will expand the etymology section and perhaps rename it (maybe, "Development of the neologism" - ?). While the AfD decided that the page was about to be the "land"; maintaining such a narrow focus will be disservice to a reader even at the cost of redundancy. We need to start from the Colonial ethnographers and proceed ... TrangaBellam (talk) 19:46, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

  On rethoughts, we can have a section titled "History" with a subsection titled "Etymology". We shunt in the post-2000 stuff to the subsection. TrangaBellam (talk) 20:07, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

  It appears that a recent claim is Minaro = Aryan! Which is weird for so many reasons. TrangaBellam (talk) 20:21, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

The anthropology summaries are on Bhan 2018, p. 83. Yes, the Minaro = Pure Aryan claim is weird. We only have a weak newspaper source for it. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:25, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Need to download Bhan 2018 through uni vpn; strangely, I can only access a couple of pages at GBooks! Will try to flesh a decent history section, tomorrow. TrangaBellam (talk) 20:47, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Two interesting news reports from before 2014.

• Aditi Tandon, A chosen people, The Tribune (Chandigarh) – Spectrum, 7 November 2004.
• Akshai Jain, Who went where, when? On the trail of the first people in India, Mint, 01 Jan 2010

Both the articles are aware of the Aryan lore, but are not aware of the "Aryan Valley" term. The second one, covering genetic research, states that the German Indologists popularised the Aryan label in 1960s (not the colonial times, as Mona Bhan believes)! And German tourists have been coming since then.

It also appears, from the first article, that there was a "Batalik Block" (I presume a Community Development Block) and it was in the Leh district. That would imply that the entire region was in the Leh district. The boundary seems to have been changed in the aftermath of the Kargil War, putting two out of the four villages in the Kargil district. There was presumably an "Inner Line" prior to that, putting those two villages off-limits to foreign tourists. So, it would have made sense to merge them into the Kargil district. The "Aryan Valley" movement is also partly to recreate the "Batalik Block" in the cultural and tourism sphere. (Note that the museum was set up in one of the Kargil villages.) -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:34, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Yup, we have evidence from 1980.

Travelling in search of the "Aryan seed" was a group of German girls, They came all the way to Ladakh hoping to carry back with them the seed of what is believed to be one of the purest survivors of the Aryan race.

-- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:36, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

See Friese (2000) on this. TrangaBellam (talk) 15:14, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Note carefully that even as of 2000, clan elders trace a descent from Gilgit. The Alexander story, I believe had been floated by German indologists (Friese notes such rumors to pervade Leh), and got imbibed by the Brogpas in the past two decades. TrangaBellam (talk) 15:22, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

@Kautilya3 Bhan's PhD thesis says:

Situated around fifty-miles from Kargil and around hundred miles from Leh, Garkone’s proximity to Kargil seems only evident given its proximity to the district centre. In fact, although Brogpas blame the local administration for dividing Buddhist villages into two separate districts, Garkonepas also blame their nambardars (village headmen) for acceding to the division two decades before. Interestingly, this only demonstrates the shifting and multiple meanings that Brogpas have invested in the district boundary over the years. In the 1970s, when traveling to and fro from Garkone to Kargil was not easy because of lack of good roads and transport facilities, proximity to Kargil was perceived as an advantage. Religious and identity politics between Leh and Kargil in the last two decades has gradually transformed the neutrality of this administrative boundary. Moreover, real and perceived disparities were believed to exist between Leh and Kargil in relation to development. All the above factors largely shaped Brogpa perceptions of and the meanings they attributed to the district boundary.

Leh and Kargil were separate tehsils (sub-districts) before Kargil became a fullfledged district in 1979. District Kargil was created in 1979 by Sheikh Abdullah’s government to split the state of Jammu and Kashmir into smaller districts for better administrative control and for an equitable distribution of resources. Many scholars, however, claim that Sheikh Abdullah’s intentions were to split the region along religious lines and quell the movement in Ladakh for autonomy from Kashmir.

TrangaBellam (talk) 19:04, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

References

Another unconstructive and undiscussed edit

Who deleted the list of villages and why? This is an attempt to geographically define a geographical area. I believe that the issue of some authors saying three villages and others saying five stems from the distinction between village and Hamlet, but these are well-defined entities today. Elinruby (talk) 19:49, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Any unsourced information can be deleted. TrangaBellam (talk) 19:51, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Not a good idea. When so many people are frantically editing, citations can get lost or get clobbered. We can't depend on them entirely. Better to put a "citation needed" tag, unless it looks like geuine OR. The citation for it was this one:

• A, Divya (2019-02-08). "The Dard Aryans of Ladakh: who are this tribe, what are their concerns?". The Indian Express. Retrieved 2022-12-21. "Some 200 km from Leh are the villages of Dha, Hanu, Garkone and Darchik on both sides of the Indus River, inhabited by the Buddhist Dard tribes. The villages are together called the "Aryan valley"." [...] They have demanded that the government set up a tribal hostel and declare the "Aryan valley" a heritage village to boost tourism.

-- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:11, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

For this peculiarly formatted content in a section titled "juridiction":

The following places under Dha Hanu district — villages and hamlets — are inhabited by the Buddhist Dards: Gurgurdo, Sanacha, Urdus, Darchik, Garkon, Dah, Phindur, Baldes, Hanu, Lower and upper.

• Darchik Village includes the following hamlets:

Sanchez

Urdus(Hordas)

• Dah, Ladakh has the following hamlets:

Phindur(Beema)

Baldes

• Hanu

Upper Hanu and Lower Han

• Garkon

Gurgurdo is a hamlet of Garkon.

• Dha and Hanu are represented in the Ladakh Autonomous Hill Development Council Leh District. Garkon and Darchik are represented by the Ladakh Autonomous Hill Development Council Kargil District.

This is incoherent whatever be the source. TrangaBellam (talk) 20:24, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Oh, this stuff! Yeah, unsourced.

Minaro123, please feel free to add the subsidiary hamlets to the individual village pages, which don't have much content at the moment. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:36, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

I deleted this; ofcourse, I won't delete the four village names! TrangaBellam (talk) 20:43, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Lead dispute

• As of today, Aryan Valley is neither an administrative region nor a census block. It is merely a name used in tourism brochures (though I do spot that it is increasingly used by the Brokpas for political mobilization). So, to equate it with the Dha Hanu District is ridiculous.

• Now that I have taken a look, what is this "Dha Hanu District"? When did this entity exist? Which sources allude to this "district"?

• All sources note Aryan Valley to encompass four villages and hamlets thereof; not "the region of narrow ravines and valleys located south of the Karakoram mountain range in central Ladakh" (or something similar), which you propose to be the first line of the lead.
• I have no idea about why MSL etc. need to go into the lead either.

Now, Minaro123, you are editing in an article which is covered by AC/DS sanctions. The onus of inclusion is on you. Yet, you chose to edit-war. That does not look good to me. TrangaBellam (talk) 20:56, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

There was no such "distict" in an official sense. The British often used the term "district" for an informal region.

There can be a separate Geography section in the body where the valleys etc. can be described. We also need to point out that the region is divided across two real districts (Leh and Kargil). -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:33, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

I agree. TrangaBellam (talk) 21:43, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Shaw used "division", "district", and "region" synonymously; at par with contemporary chroniclers of other regions. TrangaBellam (talk) 06:26, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

I am asking you a simple question dear editor humbly ,

Questions 1:Is the Aryan valley articles only about :

1: defination .

2: how these Aryan valley got its name ,what's the reason ,what are the thought of anthropologiest ok these Aryan valley .

3: the history of name .

2: Can freely pick out the content of the Dha hanu district into separate articles of Dha hanu ?

We want to talk about its region , geography ,

Can I freely do that?

3: you should listen others opinion too, i am a native of these place and i known each and every detail about its region it's history .

4: can I add the History in dha Hanu District in a sperate articles ?

5: are you going to purely focus these source which has Aryan valley mentioned.

Please let me know ,its a genuine questions ,its a policy of wikepedia bro ask questions in talk ,

I respect the guidelines of wikepedia,

So please need a answe for all of the above asked questions.

I was the one of them who Firstly created Aryan valley articles and i fought to save these articles after kautilya3 nominated for deletion .

And yet you are ignoring me not listening my talks on these page . Minaro123 (talk) 21:34, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

This is incoherent. We are under no compulsion to listen to you because you are an inhabitant of "Aryan Valley". Thanks, TrangaBellam (talk) 21:43, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Could you bother to answer the questions please if you are a genuine person? Its a guideline of the wikepedia to listen on talk and have collaboration , yet you are not listening us .and not even replied my asked questions . Minaro123 (talk) 21:45, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Respected administrator Liz, Please have some intervention , kautilya3 and TrangaBellam was supporting for Aryan valley deletion .But after Aryan valley was in a favour keep .These two above user are not having a collaboration and doing the edit of their mind together as a group .Please tell them to have a collaboration and discuss and answer the questions asked .Please save wikepedia policies .I apologise for reverting back the edit done by TrangaBellam , he was deleting the geographical part of Aryan valley and he was only adding what the defination of its name , how the region got its name ,etc . I respect the wikepedia policies and i will follow all the policies in from now and in future .They are mainly focusing on aryan valley name in whole article,Rather than focusing on the geographical aspect.Please do some action needed .Minaro123 (talk) 21:56, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Dear Minaro123, I am only trying to be helpful here. As I have suggested above, the geographical details of the kind you mention can go in the body, in a Geography section. Note that TrangaBellam has agreed.

Wikipedia does not allow multiple pages for the same topic. So you cannot create another page called Dha-Hanu region or whatever. Since you chose to create the page under the contentious name of "Aryan valley" and the scholarly sources have discussed its problems in considerable detail, those issues have to be discussed here as well. (I have told you from the beginning that all of this could go in a geography section of the Brokpa page but my suggestions were cold-shouldered. So now here we are.) -- Kautilya3 (talk) 22:10, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Let me also add that each of the four villages listed here has an individual page of its own. Each village's geography can be, and should be, described on those pages as well. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 22:14, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Though kautilya3, you are always supporting TrangaBellam as If you both guys are good friends no matter what he said . If you , kautilya3 were supporting for adding the geographical aspect of Aryan valley ,why you haven't warned him not to revert my edits on geographic cited by reliable source .Why is this article Focuses mainly on its name rather than geographical aspect ,The reason for not deleting aryan valley was only that It was once a independent country and later occupied by Ladakhi army .Why TrangaBellam is not replying my asked questions, rather than writing on my personal talk pages .At first place both of you were demanding for deleting Aryan valley pages , though me and ElinRuby and others fought back with sources to save it .Please refrain from supporting just because he/she is your friends ,please support based on content.You should had commented TrangaBellam not to deleting the geographical aspect of you were really in favour of geographic aspect .And second thing , isn't the geography main thing about any particular place ?The name keeps getting changes , however the geographic always remain same .Minaro123 (talk) 22:26, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Dha hanu district is no double was a independent country as cited by British explorer and other entropologies author too .It was a independent Region occupied by Minaro in last , however later Ladakhi king taken it it's under control and since then it became a part of Ladakh.kautilya3 ,Why can't the Dha hanu district can't have geographical aspect of it .? Why we need to ignore the Dha hanu district and added it in its ethnic group section?. I didn't understood your motive behind these until now .I don't thing you are familiar with the Dha hanu district .The name of the region keep getting changes , however geographical remain same . We need to add the geographical section in a main introduction body because we often see these in other articles about geographical area too like .Otherwise it is unfair to dha hanu District or Aryan valley region .Minaro123 (talk) 22:40, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Dear@Kautilya3: , the brief geographic aspects of a place should be at the head of the articles just like the other articles of a region have . I have cited the brief geographic position of Aryan Valley .so please don't delete it because every single articles have of region have a introductory geographix position at the head . Minaro123 (talk) 22:54, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

If you want to add the geographic of these region in detail on Aryan valley page , then you are welcome to create the seprate section named " Geography" in that articles and write about its geography in more detail.However don't remove the brief citation of Geography position of which is at the head of Aryan valley page .And second things please also cited some good things about Aryan valley too, don't always cited the bad aspect of it. Minaro123 (talk) 22:57, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

And final thing: Elinruby doesn't seems to agree with the term as " tourist designated" as she have her own point . Please dont simply ignore her,please see her reliable sources too and listen to her , she is only here to improve the articles for the benefit of wikepedia. It is amazing if we all discuss with our relevant source on talk pages for especially for the most controversial topic ,rathee than playing a game editing and reverting. I hope my contribution would help for the betterment of wikepedia , I don't have any personal benefits from all of these.Minaro123 (talk) 23:01, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Please note that TrangaBellam created this section to discuss the lead, to which you added content he didn't agree with. You need to answer those questions first, so that you can arrive at a WP:CONSENSUS. Please note WP:NOTAFORUM, and focus on the issues at hand. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 23:31, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Dear @Kautilya3: ,I have asked him/hee a series of questions which I needed to know . However he/she didn't bother to answer it , rather picked only the one sentence of mine which says something like this that " i am native of Aryan valley and it was indeed a geographical region " What he /she did was , among the many concern questions , he/she picked the last sentence and attacked me back saying that it doesn't matter .i demanded him a answers but he didn't .Please stop playing a guess and doubting an author like " District is often used for an informal region .Well in this case it is not used as a informal region..Dha hanu District was an independent Kingdom occupied by Minaro since century .It was independent until the ladakhi king ruled it. And the Geographical aspects is must in the head of the sentence .it Deserve .DONT BECAUSE the dha hanu district is today call as ," Aryan valley",we shouldn't ignore its Geography . Even Lizz, the administrator quoted that Dha hanu district was independent country so any country is always notable based on wikepedia policies . Even I don't agree with Aryan valley being term as " Tourist designated" place because Administration and newspapers have also cited these . However I didn't challanged you , I didn't said even a one word against or support it . I let it as it is since it was quotted with reliable source . And similarly, there shouldn't be a problem of keeping the Geographical aspects of Aryan valley in brief as in head section because every region in wikepedia have a brief geographic description in the top of the articles .I said ,if you won't allow me to write about Geographical description at the top then it doesn't looks like a geographical place at all . We need to make a sperate region as Dha ,hanu district in different articles where at the top there will be a geographical description. Minaro123 (talk) 23:51, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

You guys lost me at the part about the museum being "government propaganda". I don't understand why you are hell-bent on making it seem like this is not a real place. May I refer you to the reference in the cultivation section, where the union territory government talks about an initiative to provide harvesting nets to apricot growers of Aryan Valley. There are are also other such references for construction of cell phone towers and electrification. I am not certain that these survived the recent carnage. But no, the phrase is *not* invented by the tourist industry. Just so I am clear, based on Bhan, you guys are saying that the government of a union territory got together with its two autonomous hill councils to promote a Hindu nationalist agenda. You do realize that nobody within a hundred miles of this renaming is remotely Hindu let alone a Hindu nationalist? Even Bhan says that these people are oblivious to the effects that she sees on Hindu nationalism. You guys are very glib with your acronyms, but you seem confused about a number of things. I have already spent a ridiculous amount of time today talking to people who are dismissing me because they believe me to be...whatever, so I am not up for another round of that right now, but I will ask you again, why you think that an article about an isolated culture in a completely different ethnic environment should be something like 50% about the implications of its name for Hindu nationalism? Please read up on due weight before you answer. Elinruby (talk) 00:13, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

This section is about the lead. TrangaBellam (talk) 05:46, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

PS: it would be improper to revert Minaro123 (talk · contribs) because you don't approve of his indentation. This is an effect of the "Reply" interface in the mobile app. Take it up with the developers. Elinruby (talk) 00:13, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

• There appears to be no coherent objection to my lead. I will restore it. TrangaBellam (talk) 05:46, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

• Please specify what specific text you are restoring and where. Speaking of coherence :) Elinruby (talk) 10:28, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
• You appear to be taking issue with the word "district" somewhere in this carnage. I suspect, if you had deigned to discuss, you would have discovered that Minaro123 was using it as a synonym for region, which I find fairly reasonable. If you wish to use some other word, I doubt there would be an objection. My issue with the lede is that it claims that the name is some sort of Hindu nationalist plot by the government of a territory where 12.% of the population practices that religion and 8% speak the language ;) Elinruby (talk) 10:41, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

• The term district has a specific meaning. To claim it as synonymous to region — absent any explanation— is inaccurate.
• Didn't you see the post at the top of the thread where I describe my issues with Minaro123's lead? Also, please stop with the patronising emojis. TrangaBellam (talk) 13:47, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

• Fwiw, JJ's edits have reversed Minaro123's edits at large. So, wee have nothing to see here. TrangaBellam (talk) 13:50, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
• Yes, I noticed ;) sorry if my emojis seem patronizing. You know what seems patronizing to me? Being called "clueless" and "incompetent" ;) Elinruby (talk) 15:03, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Minaro123 also claimed that it was an "independent country" when R. B. Shaw visited it in 1876 because he called it "Dha-Hanu country". There is no word yet as to who gave him a visa to visit this "country". -;)

• @TrangaBellam: Dear TrangaBellam , Dha hanu region was an independent country until Ladakhi kingdom ruled it and absorbed it and thus it became the part of Ladakh .And There is no doubt about being it a independent country .

And later in 19 century,while Ladakh region was ruled by an Princely state of Jammu and Kashmir and absorbed within itself and thus ladakh became a part of Jammu and Kashmir . R.B Shaw visited Dha hanu district in 19 century and that time it was a part of princely state Jammu and Kashmir. However, R.B Shaw talks about Dha hanu country being independent country and later it was absorbed by Ladakh and Ladakh being absorbed by Princely state Jammu and Kashmir state. When Dha Hanu was a independent country , Balti raiders use to attack it and thus Dha hanu region was fortified . R.B Shaw was the first one to narrate about Dha hanu region being a independent country in past . And later many anthropologiest like Rohit vohra also talks about Dha hanu region was independent country and later it was ruled by Ladakh kingdom and Stephen Kloss and many more talks about Dha hanu being independent until Ladakhi kingdom ruled it . It is a fact that Dha hanu region was independent before Ladakhi king ruled it ,and we shouldn't underestimate the Independent country record of dha hanu . However there are a lot of propoganda who wants to oppress the history of Dha hanu district . And second thing , ancient Ladakhi Kingdom and former Dha hanu kingdom never liked each other due to distinct ethinicity and culture and there was a lot of battle between them and I wonder if any of the famous historian have covered it ,i hope it must have been convered ,as we need to search history book . And If you are saying dha hanu is not a district under present government ,nor it is a block then it is due to the government that's hasn't understood the importance of Dha hanu region and the endangered ethnic group which is Brokpa. Instead of powering a dha hanu region and making it a administrative block , government have did a unjustified division which further divided the small region of dha hanu into two districts, Dha Hanu in leh and Garkon , Darchik in kargil district, however demand for the single subdivision for the whole Dha hanu region is always rising by its people . We should state the fact as it is in wikepedia . Ladakhi king tsewang namgail even forbid the usage of Broskat langauge in hanu valley of dha hanu region and even Buried alive the leader of Hanu Apo tho-sali when he opposed the forced leader demanded by the ladakhi king and kept a spies in Hanu to keep a eye if anyone speaks brokskat langauge and severe punishment was given to them . And in Yaldor sector of Dha hanu Region , a Ladakh king kept more spies on Brokpa people . I wanted to write all of those last history about dha hanu region cited by relaible source , however I was left disappointed when my edit on History section was reverted and it seems like some editor favour Ladakhi kingdom and doesn't wants other to know the cruelty done by them and sacrifices of dha hanu people for their land, culture and langauge .Please ve neutral and state the fact. I lost my confidence to search deep further into the history of dha hanu region when others user we're not cooperative and always reverted my edits Minaro123 (talk) 05:11, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

I have no fondness for either the Ladakhi Kingdom or for our subject. You must use WP:HISTRS for your claims; that's all I have to say. That aside, editing Wikipedia article to let others know about the cruelty inflicted upon one's ancestors and their resilience is often a bad idea. TrangaBellam (talk) 04:58, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

See there is Jallianwala_Bagh_massacre, In which the cruelty happened on Indian people done during British Raj is clearly written .it couldn't be ignored . I am not saying that i will write only about the cruelty ,but i will write the history which has been wrote by famous author , Historian ,etc .Minaro123 (talk) 06:15, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

i will write the history which has been wrote by famous author , Historian ,etc - Yes, and so far, there is no evidence that you are citing any famous author or historian, much less reliable ones. (This started out as a thread on a dispute concerning the lead but I have little idea what is being discussed in this thread as of now.) TrangaBellam (talk) 06:32, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

I want these articles to more emphasis about its history about its region that it was independent . And the geographical boundary should be in a head of the articles. Since these articles is about region so we should add the regions History event in the history section .And about the people of these region ,their origin ,should be go in the human settlements section .please keep in mind that Aryan valley is a geographical entity and the more important should be given to its regions History and it's geographicyMinaro123 (talk) 06:58, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

You want the article to emphasize that "it was [an] independent [region]" among other things. Please enumerate three sources (if you have more, choose the best three) in support of such a significant observation about the independence of the Dah-Hanu territories. Please mention the page-numbers. TrangaBellam (talk) 07:09, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Opinions

Joshua Jonathan and Kautilya3, what are your immediate objections (if any) to the current version of the article? Thanks, TrangaBellam (talk) 14:40, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

My only real objection is that it is not a "tourist designation" any more. It is truly a neologism. But I can live with it for now. There is a lot more content that needs to be added, but it is not time-critical. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:06, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Ditto. Btw, we ought to emphasize that Brokpas do live outside of the Aryan valley in Ganoks (Pakistan). Unsurprisingly, they rejected Dah-Hanu Brokpas' claim of descent from Alexander as "figment of imagination" and stuck to Gilgit. TrangaBellam (talk) 15:12, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

I am not sure what you mean by "Notwithstanding the Brokpas' own claims about originating from Gilgit". The British did not disagree about the origin in the Gilgit region. (However, Gilgit itself was apparently not Dardic at the time these people branched off. Gilgit is in a branch valley of Indus.) -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:07, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Nice catch; fixed.

Btw, I am trying to find out what was the motive of Leitner. He seems to be the one who started this. Does there exist any scholarship on Leitner? TrangaBellam (talk) 16:12, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Modern day bikers also notice: The Brokpa people, or Dard people, of the villages Beema and Dha Hanu are quite unique in their Indo-European appearance with brown hair and blue or green eyes, as opposed to the Tibeto-Mongol inhabitants in the rest of Ladakh. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:22, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

So, it is easy to theorize that the Aryans came to northwest Indian subcontinent and later mixed with the natives, whereas these people stayed in the northwest and are therefore "pure". High school anthropology. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:28, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

There was also a theory that the Dardic languages were neither Indo-Aryan nor Iranian, but a third branch. There are loads of Kashmiris that still believe that, putting themselves in this third branch! -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:31, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Yeah; that seems to be the case. TrangaBellam (talk) 06:24, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

• @TrangaBellam: Your last sentence people in Ganokh "they rejected Dah-Hanu Brokpas' claim of descent from Alexander" is not correct.There is not a single anthropology or any articles have been found a out about Ganokh Brokpas.It is still unknown whether the Brokpas of Ganokh accepted or rejected the claim about Alexander.if there is any then please share here. Second thing, The majority of the Brokpa are in Aryan valley ,which is a wholly brokpa land . While only around 400 brokpa are in Ganokh , however the brokpa in Ganokh are not longer following ancestral faith , culture and religion of Brokpa ,they are now following Islam religion and intermingle with other muslim as a result since generation.Minaro123 (talk) 08:49, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

References