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Sancic not Šančić?

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This is one of the oddest examples of how unhelpful it is to be removing diacritics from Croatian tennis player's names in BLPs. With two different 'c' Šančić Shan-tchits is one of the clearest cases of why diacritics are helpful for pronunciation. In ictu oculi (talk) 11:30, 23 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

But not in English since they are ignored. It is a very flexible language and what this wikipedia is based on. In English you can spell you name "Fred" and pronounce it "Petunia" if you like. Words that we borrow from foreign languages eventually lose all diacritics. Does anyone in English know by looking how to pronounce something...no... we have to learn that eye, ai, I, aye all sound the same. Or Harry and Hairy are identical. We have to remember that the final e in "here" is never pronounced but that in "hyperbole" it is pronounced. Is this ideal? Maybe not, but it is what it is. Diacritics hold no value and it's why they are not taught in school. So with Sancic in this English language wikipedia, we simply learn from the media how to pronounce it or pronounce it the way we feel. Being English, the symbols above the letters tell me absolutely nothing. However, having both versions of his name, his foreign and his English spellings, is probably a help to our readers who may not have a firm grasp on English. I'm cool with that. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:14, 23 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Being English, the symbols above the letters tell you even more clearly that the name is foreign, and not English. It's not even borrowed - it's repeated as verbatim as possible, because it's a personal name, and everyone knows not to change e.g. Margaret Thatcher into Margret Tatchr. The reaffirmed realization that it's not an English name allows you to deduce that your preconceptions about diacritics in such a name might not actually hold. Since the entire English-speaking tennis world pronounces Ee-van-ish-evitch fairly correctly - at least I can't actually recall ever hearing a native speaker say 'Eye-van-ice-vick' in public - so the theory that you can pronounce personal names however you feel is pretty much unsupported. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 14:30, 30 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Reply to edit summary on Antonio Šančić move to Antonio Sancic

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Fynuck, again, we have this problem of understanding what WP:RS says.

(cur | prev) 21:53, 29 March 2012‎ Fyunck(click) (talk | contribs)‎ m . . (2,127 bytes) (0)‎ . . (Fyunck(click) moved page Antonio Šančić to Antonio Sancic over redirect: back to English version, ITF, ATP, almost all English sources, Tennis guidelines, etc...) (undo)

web index cards in a diacritic disabled system are not WP:RS for BLP, and additionally since the player's main notability is locally in Croatia itself, per WP:CONSISTENCY category:Croatian male tennis players, this should be at the BLP's actual name. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:52, 31 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ridiculous... that's your own fantasy and not supported by wikipedia policy or guidelines. His notability is not the fact he is in Croatia, it's because he's good at tennis. If he is in Russia do we use their lettering system instead of English? No we don't. The ITF, ATP and English press are extremely valid sources here at wikipedia whether you like them or not. This should be at Nastase for all the countless English sources. Certainly the diacritic name should be mentioned but it should be located where the English and tennis sources take us. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:20, 31 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Fyunck
(1) If he is in Russia do we use their lettering system instead of English You have been repeatedly asked to please stop making arguments from cyrillic names concerning Latin alphabet names, since WP:UE distinguishes this.
(2) Please keep clear of language like "ridiculous" "fantasy." It's evident that overreliance on ITF website listings is the root of the problems being caused by insisting (or preempting by building redirects away from the name) that are causing some tennis BLPs to stick out. It is not only my view that a diacritic disabled webpage with stub lists for tennis players does not meet criteria for WP:BLP RS, and as per Talk header here Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, probably should apply to the BLPs name and biodata. I see few other editors giving credit to diacritic-disabled player lists are a reliable source for diacritics in names of BLPs, nor do I see a swell of editor support for considering them WP:RS in this matter. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:30, 31 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No... if it's ridiculous I will tend to say it's ridiculous. If you think that everyone thinks as you do i.e. That you can't make a correlation with the Russian alphabet, that Latin alphabet is not English alphabet, that the ITF is not a good source but non-English sources are the way to go then that is a fantasy of yours, not mine. I did not say that all editors think as I do but a substantial number do which you fail to recognize. Take a look at the 4 Djokovic debates and see for yourself. Some articles are stubs but sourced well enough for the info they contain. As more info is added of course they need more "English" sources. So lets turn the tables... stop making statements about the ITF, ATP and Davis Cup about being simply a set of Index cards, you have been asked many times. Stop saying they are diacritic disabled when they occasionally spell towns with diacritics, just not player names. They are reliable sources it just that you don't like it WP:IDLI. These are tennis biographies and these are their common names by which the English spell them. Sure I know that more and more foreigners are editing this English wikipedia every day. It's certainly not the wikipedia that I started with, but many of the policies and rules are still in place. But tennis is a different beast. It's not my fault that the sport's bylaws require it to be in the English language forever. Fyunck(click) (talk) 10:17, 31 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Fyunck,
(1) please see WP:UE which says "The choice between anglicized and local spellings should follow English-language usage, e.g., Besançon, Søren Kierkegaard and Göttingen, but Nuremberg, delicatessen, and Florence. ... Names not originally in a Latin alphabet, such as Greek, Chinese, or Russian names, must be transliterated"
(2) Новак Ђоковић is not usually written in a Latin alphabet. Antonio Šančić is written in a Latin alphabet.
(3) ITF and ATP index cards are not in "English" since English also has diacritics, Emily Brontë, but the ITF and ATP system would also strip English diacritics. You said that ITF ATP index cards do not allow diacritics, now you say they do. Can you please give an example of an ITF or ATP index card giving a diacritic on a name.
Thanks In ictu oculi (talk) 19:23, 31 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The troubles is wikipedia uses the English alphabet not the Latin alphabet. You are incorrect once again. While you said the ITF and ATP don't allow diacritics I said they do in cities (not players), so it's not a blanket removal. I have given some of those sources to you and others before but it's possible you just ignored them. We also have diacritic guidelines here at wikipedia that tell us "Follow the general usage in reliable sources that are written in the English language." But you seem to ignore everything except what you want in flooding wikipedia with foreign alphabets and names. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:15, 1 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Fyunck,
Wikipedia has been "flooded with foreign accents and names" for many years, given that it assumes to put BLPs of living people on en.wikipedia, and international English - the language of scholars, Brussels, UN, does tend to respect these accents. Just as British and Canadians do for French accents and Americans for Spanish generally. So it's only East European you are objecting to, and we're all in the EU now. I don't seriously think that myself putting in a RM for (1) five French BLPs 3x Stéphane 2x Frédéric which are out of line with all other French Stéphane and Frédéric BLPS (2) an Argentinian tennis player to be consistent with an Argentian footballer with the same name, (3) reverting one of your moves back to article creator (I forget which) is doing anything more than tidying up per WP:CONSISTENCY.In ictu oculi (talk) 09:09, 1 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This would be another incorrect assumption by you (of which there have been a LOT). I do not object to "only East European"... I follow the English sources as required here. I use the ITF, the ATP, Davis Cup, Wimbledon, UK press, US press, AU press, etc... I use all of them for this wikipedia when it come to people whose only claim to notability is tennis. Otherwise they would even be listed here. If they spell something a certain way using the English alphabet that is where the article should be. Some will be a diacritics but most will not. It will be the most common term for the title using those English sources. I don't care if it's Spanish, Dutch, Icelandic, or Antarctic... I follow those English sources that we will be using in the article itself. You use pretty much all foreign sources for this English wikipedia... a big mistake and something to be avoided if at all possible. Fyunck(click) (talk) 10:14, 1 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Fyunck, sorry that wasn't expressed well. Yes I know you personally object to all foreign names with diacritics, my point was that in practice an objection to the "flood" of foreigners with foreign names tends to end up on the East Europeans - since people can accept French and Germans, generally. That's all.
As for "sources" I repeat my point again that if you put most common Eastern European surnames into Google Scholar you will find politicians, authors, chemists, scholars, physicists, mathematicians, artists with diacritics intact. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:13, 1 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I feel that Sancic is a spelling of convenience used by English popular/non-scholarly sources and that better encyclopedic style would be Šančić. Doremo (talk) 08:35, 31 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved to Antonio Šančić. Favonian (talk) 13:48, 24 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Antonio Sancic → Antonio Šančić –

The imposition of no-diacritics at WP:TENNISNAMES has only managed to garner consensus about doing it the other way around, but User:Fyunck(click) still seems to be intent on arguing and reverting moves on individual player articles, forcing us to do these things the hard way. Oh well. Here goes:

This person's name is not really different from the other Croatian tennis player names, so we should also move this article to the name with diacritics. We've had numerous arguments about the exact same context, above at #Sancic not Šančić?, at Talk:Mate Pavić, Talk:Saša Tuksar, and probably elsewhere. The carons and acutes in Šančić shouldn't be particularly distracting to the English readers, and their removal does not provide any apparent benefit, so it should not be done at the expense of other naming criteria - precision, consistency, etc.

In addition, I think the lead phrase "known professionally as Antonio Sancic" should be removed because it implies that the diacriticless version it's an actually different name, which it isn't.

--Joy [shallot] (talk) 13:10, 17 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • I often see it asserted as fact at these RMs that apparently the dropping of diacritics is simply not a valid translation. But then why is "Zurich" the accepted translation of Zürich? If it's OK to translate by dropping dios for cities, why is not OK for sports biographies? I know this a bit off-topic, but I really want to know and I figure someone who comes here to comment will know. Jenks24 (talk) 00:21, 18 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It has been discussed and answered at the various other RMs. The reason is the difference between officially anglicized names and simple one-sided diacritics-dropping. Anglicism means München transforms into Munich (and not just drops its accent to Munchen - Zurich is just a plain coincident), but most cities (about 97%) remain as they are as e.g. Sweden's third biggest city Malmö (and not Malmo). There are a few anglicized names that are internationally accepted (and all Russian names has latin transcription), and yes there is an example for that in tennis as well namely Novak "Dj"okovic BUT the rest of the players use their names as it was given to them when they were born (it could be easily proven by checking their Facebook/Twitter/other community portal accounts/own website). The background of this avalanche of RMs is that the tennis association uses an internet software introduced some years back, which doesn't allow players to register themselves with diacritics-names to enter international tournaments. It's the decision of a couple of moguls and many English newspapers - mistakenly - adapt the names from this site. That's the whole story in a nutshell. Lajbi Holla @ me • CP 10:17, 18 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, your answer's just left me more confused. You say that Zurich is a coincidence, like it is rare for the English translation to be the same as the non-English word but minus the diacritics, yet how do we know that, for example, Sancic isn't one of those coincidences as well? As a bit of a side note, social media/personal websites are often used by the pro-diacritics users when it is line with their opinion, but gets dismissed as a mistake due to the English keyboard when it is not. FYI I'm well aware of the background, I've been following the issue since since last year when we had a mess of ice hockey RMs. Jenks24 (talk) 16:09, 18 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Jenks24.
This is covered in WP:UE: because Zurich is not a case diacritic-stripping (if it was it'd would be written Zuerich), it is actually an English name for a foreign city in the same was as Geneva is an English name for French "Genève" German "Genf". Dübendorf has no English name, since it wasn't notable in the 18th Century when most of these major foreign names were formalised from French/German or sometimes Latin into English. Antonio Šančić however isn't a major European city, he's a living human who has been swept up by amateurish tennis-match listing sites, and via them into a stub started with no notable English sources (by normal WP notability standards). Note that I have corrected the lede to follow WP:OPENPARAGRAPH examples and the only reliable source on name spelling in the article. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:11, 19 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
OK, so Zurich is the English name, it just happens to be the same as the German name, minus diacritics. But who "formalised" these English names? We're not the French and don't have an authoritative body to rule on the issue, so surely it was just the result of that being the name in most English sources, so it became the standard practice? If that happened in the 18th century, why can't it happen today? Why is what's on the guy's birth certificate more important than what is on a town's/city's official documents (aside from "BLP!!!!")? To be clear, this is not specific to Sancic, but a more general question for when the English-language sources have an overwhelming preference for the dio-less version.

I have reverted your change to the lead. While at the current title, the lead should reflect that, and it can be updated when it is moved, not before. WP:OPENPARA does implicitly or explicitly say anything along the lines of "ignore the title, use diacritics as you see fit", e.g. François Mitterrand has a dio in the title, so of course it should have one in the lead. Jenks24 (talk) 09:46, 19 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Jenks24, hi.
  • First, with respect, I personally think that wasn't a worthwhile reversion of the change to lede. I made a MOS based edit completely in line with standard WP practice on WP:Manual of Style/Biographies and the WP:OPENPARA gives diacritic examples showing how MOS sets out BLPs in this situation. Whereas preserving this "François (English Francois)" format oddity only maintains a non-standard lede which goes against the MOS guideline and treats a Latin alphabet name as if it was cyrillic or arabic. I won't edit-war it, but I still would be pleased to see the next contributor here to correct back to WP:Manual of Style/Biographies. There's enough non-MOS editing going on in BLP ledes already.
Reliable English sources do not have an overwhelming preference for the dio-less version of Croatian surnames. That might have been true in the 1950s, but this is (happily?) not the case now. Put any Croatian surname in Google Scholar and Croatian surnames are now generally given their diacritics in scholarly, academic and encyclopedic sources. The fact that a non-notable tennis player (or indeed the kickboxer Nenad Šančić) doesn't appear in notable and reliable sources means that we'd need to pick someone out of category:Croatian scientists to discuss what RS do.
As you say, some of us are not French, but likewise we aren't British, American or Australian either, since this is en.wp not uk.wp/au.wp/us.wp. Whether Dictionnaire de l'Académie française vs Larousse is authoritative for French is another discussion, but English does have standard spellings for European city names such as are shown in style guides, e.g. the American Society for Microbiology ASM style manual for journals and books: "English names for foreign cities: Antwerpen, Anvers = Antwerp; Brugge = Bruges; Bruxelles, Brussel = Brussels, Firenze = Florence" etc.
Birth certificates aren't needed since we all agree that we know how these surnames are spelled. The accurate surname is already in the article WP:OPENPARA and sourced. Who formalised these anglicisms such as Nuremberg for Nürnberg, Zurich for Zürich, Vienna for Wien? In terms of comparison of modern sources with the 18thC normalisation of spelling in general and some foreign city names in particular, I cannot recall if Dr Johnson in 1755 actually gave separate dictionary entrances for "Florence" for Firenze and so on, I think he only used place names in examples - and his examples include ones that have passed, like "Leghorn" for Livorno. Who would call Livorno "Leghorn" today? If there is to be traffic into creation of localised place names today (which is possible with non-Latin scripts into English certainly) there's more likely to be traffic away, such as away from "Leghorn". But again this tennis player isn't a city.
So, still wondering, what specifically is your question as to why BLPs should(n't) give accurately the names of the living people whom they are about? Is it consistent that some living people's names be spelled wrong in encyclopedia bios simply because they are not scientists, composers, writers or politicians and feature in Google Scholar? In ictu oculi (talk) 10:53, 19 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
In the case of Zurich, the English spelling does match the diacriticless version of the German name, but I think it's more important to notice that English speakers actually by and large pronounce Zurich as such (zyoo-rih, not ts-ue-rih), so it stands to reason that it's become an actual English word, albeit a strange one. In case of foreign surnames, particularly such rarely 'imported' ones like this one, that doesn't happen - English speakers by and large recognize it's pretty much unpronounceable by default, and look for assistance. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 19:49, 19 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

FYI

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I have already invited all those above. But since this is live/new it may gain new input above. Anyone else adding above please be aware:

Invitation to diacritics guideline discussion at WT:BLP
Hi, you were one of 100+ Users who has commented on a living person Requested Move featuring diacritics (e.g. the é in Beyoncé Knowles) in the last 30 days. Following closure of Talk:Stephane Huet RM, a tightening of BLP guidelines is proposed. Your contribution is invited to WT:BLP to discuss drafting a proposal for tightening BLP accuracy guidelines for names. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:04, 20 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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