Talk:Antisemitism in the Soviet Union

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This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Yshiotani.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 14:29, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

And to be honest, the article is frankly bad, either you need to delete it or redo it in a Russian article, which is an order of magnitude more adequate and better done https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%90%D0%BD%D1%82%D0% B8%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%BC_%D0%B2_%D0%A1%D0%A1%D0%A1% D0% A0, as examples of the fact that this article is absolutely terrible, one can cite a statement about supposedly his words about Litvinov and his Jewishness, which in fact did not exist and they are based on a foreign biography of Stalin in 1952, which in itself is bad as a source, a statement about some Stalin's letter about the difference between the "Jewish faction" and the "truly Russian faction" among the Bolsheviks and the RSDLP as a whole, which is also an unsubstantiated statement based on the words of Stalin's secretary Bazhanov, which are also based on nothing, like a huge number of his statements about Stalin and the USSR, approximately similar in unsubstantiated assertion that allegedly in 1936 in the show trial of Тrotskyite-Zinovievite Terrorist Center, the suspects, pr ominent Bolshevik leaders, were accused of hiding their Jewish origins under Slavic names", and how and where jews were also frequently placed disproportionately on the front lines of Russian wars, in the First World War, for example, for the most part, they were not even mobilized, but forcibly deported from the Pale of Settlement, since it was mostly on the front line, and during the Second World War, the Russians themselves, along with the Ukrainians and Belarusians, lost a lot and had a large disproportion in relation to their population, according to various sources, the Russians were seventy to seventy five percent of the Red Army during the war years, although they amounted to slightly more than half of the country's total population, and what does the events of the 1900s mentioned in the "The Bolsheviks" section (Russian-Japanese and Jewish emigration from the Russian Empire, for example) have to the Bolsheviks and the Soviet Union, if the Bolsheviks came to power at the end of 1917, and the Soviet Union was formed only at the end of 1922 Цйфыву (talk) 14:27, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

NPOV

I'm not at all certain this article should be kept on Wikipedia, but, if there's consensus that the topic is encyclopedic, the article must be significantly improved from the current one-sided polemical status. Readers should be aware that there are differing views among experts when it comes to links between Marxism and anti-Semitism, and on the reality and extent of anti-Semitism within specific movements. CJCurrie (talk) 05:53, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with Marxism, but the ethnic enmities.--Galassi (talk) 01:28, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

The film Secret and Explicit (The Aims and Acts of Zionists) was banned from wide release due to scandalous language. Oleg Platonov, referring to the filmmakers Karpov and Zhukov, writes that the film was banned by Yuri Andropov and KGB General Philip Bobkov. He writes that Karpov took out an abbreviated version of the film from the editing room, which was then shown at the apartments of "some high-ranking officials of the Russian leadership"Once again I repeat the film was banned from showing please write this in in the article Цйфыву (talk) 12:03, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Polivanov

I've left a note about the controversy regarding the information attributed to Konstantin Polivanov at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject Soviet Union#Antisemitism in the Soviet Union.  Cs32en Talk to me  15:09, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

This has been discussed here. My very best wishes (talk) 12:34, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

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RfC

BAn RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 16:24, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

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I like to add this to the lead

From late 1944, Joseph Stalin adopted a pro-Zionist foreign policy, apparently believing that the new country would be socialist and would speed the decline of British influence in the Middle East. Accordingly, in November 1947, the Soviet Union, together with the other Soviet bloc countries voted in favor of the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine, which paved the way for the creation of the State of Israel. On May 17, 1948, three days after Israel declared its independence, the Soviet Union officially granted de jure recognition of Israel, becoming only the second country to recognise the Jewish state (preceded only by the United States' de facto recognition) and the first country to grant Israel de jure recognition. 45.116.233.9 (talk) 12:28, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

References

Does any of this mention antisemitism? WP:COATRACK.--Galassi (talk) 13:01, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Well it does mention Israel, Jewish state and Soviet Union which is directly related to the topic. It gives a full picture of the situation because the whole article is one sided. 45.116.232.14 (talk) 02:53, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Please read WP:SYNTH. Hanging together pieces of information and drawing your own conclusions is WP:OR. Again, I will repeat the question already posed: do any of the sources discuss this as being antisemitic in nature? What I've ascertained is that you've cherry picked bits of information on the subject of the creation of the state of Israel and have ascribed 'antisemitism' to politically motivated actions where no scholars discuss it in terms other than being political motivated. Is the British Foreign Office's stance discussed anywhere as being antisemitic? Your suggested content is a breach of WP:NOR, WP:SYNTH, and WP:OFFTOPIC as, per WP:TITLE, this article is not Anti-Zionism. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 19:33, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Bolsheviks of Jewish descent

Why is this info [1] relevant to Antisemitism in the Soviet Union? GizzyCatBella (talk) 02:39, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Because it is very important in differentiating the two phases of antisemitism-- The one in early Soviet Russia period is less driven by racism than the Stalinist period. It should be noted that many "anti-Jewish" policies in the early 1920s are implemented at least with the approval of Jewish cadres. I'd like to expand on this a bit in the article had there not been so many people who revert anything other than the usual "Soviet Union is anti-Jewish" lines. Esiymbro (talk) 02:49, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Ok, I'll tell you what I think. First, these people were not Jews but Bolsheviks of Jewish descent. Second, I believe, this unquestionably true and sourced information should be consolidated somewhere inside the section, not as a punchline right at the opening of the segment. GizzyCatBella (talk) 03:35, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

This is what I composed [2], let's go from there. GizzyCatBella (talk) 04:05, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the edit. I'm completely fine with this. Now let's see how they react to this version. Esiymbro (talk) 04:12, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

This is WP:SYNTH - and worse promoting a Judeo-Communist canard. Please use sources directly on-topic to the topic of this article.Icewhiz (talk) 07:19, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Good job branding any people who don't agree with you as a Nazi. What I want to convey is very clear -- it is simply ridiculous to assume the 1920s Bolsheviks are treated the Jews any worse beyond their generic anti-religious attitudes. If you seriously regard the fact that Jews were able to occupy high positions in the Bolshevik Party as Nazi propaganda, it only tells about your own ignorance. Esiymbro (talk) 07:39, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

@Esiymbro please focus on the matter, not editor (important). Could you elaborate farther why do you believe that information should be included? We know (sourced) that there was a large presence of people with Jewish roots in the Bolshevik leadership but the addition of this data is challenged now on the grounds of promoting Judeo-Communist canard. GizzyCatBella (talk) 08:03, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

The Judeo-Communist theory is already long dead. In this article's context, mentioning this is just another excuse to remove any information that contradicts with their view of the USSR. If you ask me, that's how I see it. Esiymbro (talk) 08:18, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Is there any relevant policy grounds to exclude this information? For now we have only a personal assumption that it’s a promotion of Judeo-Communist canard. GizzyCatBella (talk) 08:21, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

No, as far as I'm aware. Anyway thanks for your time on this. I've already spent too long on this and probably won't be able to keep track of this discussion later. Esiymbro (talk) 08:29, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

@Esiymbro - Then, since I disagree that it is a promotion of any canard, the data isn't against any policy, it's accurately sourced and related to the article, I see no basis for its removal. The section of the article might be updated with the disputed information in my opinion. GizzyCatBella (talk) 09:08, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

I cited a policy reason - WP:SYNTH. Please use sources whose topic is antisemitism in the USSR (which also clearly cover how supposed "Jewish" influence on Communism was vastly exagerrated).Icewhiz (talk) 09:57, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

This article isn't related to the fictional "Jewish influence on Communism" in any way and the added sentence is not "synthing" that. Esiymbro (talk) 11:19, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

There is nothing worth edit-warring here. Essential reading for every editor involved would be "Communism" in the Encyclopedia Judaica. There is a grain of truth in claims of "Judaeo-Bolshevism", even though they might be exaggerated and distorted.

Initially, the Soviet regime was attractive to Russian and Western Jews, because the counterrevolutionary forces were violently antisemitic. The bulk of Russian Jewish youth was driven into the ranks of the Bolshevik regime. Individual Jews, though mostly confirmed assimilationists, played an important role in the early stages of Bolshevism and the Soviet regime. Russian Jews occupied many responsible positions in all branches of the party and state machinery at the central and local seats of power. The Soviet model brought economic and cultural improvements, culminating in the Jewish Autonomous Region of Birobidzhan. In some countries Jews became the leading element in the legal and illegal Communist parties and in some cases were even instructed by the Communist International to change their Jewish-sounding names and pose as non-Jews, in order not to confirm right-wing propaganda that presented Communism as an alien, Jewish conspiracy.

Of course most of these "Jews" were secular and assimilationist, accepting the total disappearance of Jewish identity under advanced capitalism and socialism. They opposed the existence of separate Jewish workers' movements, expecially Bundism. --212.186.133.83 (talk) 20:39, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

Jewish Autonomous Oblast

I don't know why this isn't mentioned in the article, but I'll add a section with text from the Oblast's article. Hextor26 (talk) 18:56, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

Content Dispute

I'd rather not have us reverting edits back and forth until the end of time, so could we discuss things here?

I acknowledge that the content I removed is sourced, but it referenced a secondary source which is directly contradicted by the actual text of the article referenced -- a primary source. Why do you think we should keep the contentious section? Minnieminaaa (talk) 23:17, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

Source: The Jews in the Soviet Union since 1917

Hi @My_very_best_wishes. You added this source The Jews in the Soviet Union since 1917 [3]. Would you mind providing a quote from the book that you're using? I'm just wondering if, after many many re-edits, that the original message of the source got lost. Thanks.Stix1776 (talk) 10:54, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

As cited within the ref, the organization served for "destruction of traditional Jewish life, the Zionist movement, and Hebrew culture". The source I used was the book by Pipes, but the original citation comes from the book by Levin, so it probably worth including both references. Welcome to fix it further. My very best wishes (talk) 17:25, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Hi @My very best wishes, but do you have a quote from the book? I'm absolutely unable to find this text. Thanks.Stix1776 (talk) 06:13, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Are you looking at the book by Pipes, Richard (1993). "Russia under the Bolshevik regime", page 363? That is where the quotation came from. I do not have the book by Levin. My very best wishes (talk) 14:13, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

@My very best wishes, I literally don't know. Can you please quote the text from whatever source seems to back up the text in the article. Are you able to provide the text or not?Stix1776 (talk) 13:41, 27 October 2023 (UTC) Nevermind, I found a copy on archive.org. Is that OK for Wikipedia?

Anyhow, the text from Levin states:

3.1 First Conference of the Evsektsiya, Moscow, October 1918. YIVO.

The Sections were intended to be part of the Communist Party, but generally party members did not recognize their special legitimacy or that of Evkom. They were simply a cog in the party apparatus. Some Sections were even attacked for their "nationalistic deviations" 35 at a time when the party was liquidating the autonomous nationality Sections in the areas liberated from German rule (Belorussia, Lithuania, and Latvia) and transforming them into territorial Communist parties. Since Soviet Jews lacked a territorial base and since there was no territory with a Jewish majority, no Jewish territorial party was formed. To many ardent party members, the existence of Jewish Sections seemed anomalous a needless problem and a nuisance.

While the Jewish Sections were struggling to define themselves, recruit new personnel, and bring the Communist message to "the Jewish street," the Bund and socialist Zionists were undergoing severe internal crises and external pressures which eventually destroyed their unity and independence.36 Their breakdown gave the Evsektsiya control over Jewish communities and cleared the way for the destruction of traditional Jewish life, the Zionist movement, and Hebrew culture.

This is very different from the text in the article. Thanks.Stix1776 (talk) 14:26, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Like I said already, the source here was the book by Pipes, Richard (1993). "Russia under the Bolshevik regime", page 363, not the book by Levin. Last paragraph at the bottom. The starts from As an analogue of Living Church, the regime created "Jewish Sections" (Evsektsii) of the Russian Communist Party. ... Their [Evsektsii] mission has been described as "the destruction of traditional Jewish life, the Zionist movement, and Hebrew culture" [ref 113]. My very best wishes (talk) 21:06, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

It does not contradict your quotation from another source (book by Levin) above. How you want to summarize all of that is a different matter.My very best wishes (talk) 21:06, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

@My very best wishes I would summarize the test as "The breakdown of other Jewish groups gave the Evsektsiya more sway over Jewish communities which facilitated the destruction of traditional Jewish life, the Zionist movement, and Hebrew culture." Please let's not stray from the meaning of the text and get into OR.Stix1776 (talk) 01:52, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

"The breakdown of other Jewish groups". Which groups exactly and what breakdown? I might work more with these pages sometime later. Happy editing. My very best wishes (talk) 16:32, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

See my blockquote above. The original source said that it was the breakdown of the Bund and socialist Zionist groups.Stix1776 (talk) 03:51, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, I see. The Bund is clear. It was disbanded. But others - I am not sure what he was talking about. Zionist Socialist Workers Party? United Jewish Socialist Workers Party? My very best wishes (talk) 16:44, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Frankly, the text doesn't say which Zionist socialist party it was. I feel from the meaning that it was individual, unaffiliated Zionists and smaller official parties, but frankly it's hard to be clear about that. Are you going to offer a suggesting for fixing the sentence or shall I be bold? Thanks.Stix1776 (talk) 17:04, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Fabrication

This person ought to be banned considering that they straight up made it up. I don't know who inserted it originally but this person attempted to undo the revision. RE my edit, removing a fictitious quote from Stalin that is not found in the book in which it is claimed to appear.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=1242636419

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Dima_Nekhoroshyi

The book is available on archive.org:

https://archive.org/details/lifedeathstalinfischer/page/54/mode/2up?q=Nazi 96.60.79.128 (talk) 22:05, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

I would like to apologize for my incorrect revision of your edit. The quote appears to be fake. Your first edit appeared to be putting Joseph Stalin in a better view, as you replaced "Stalin emerged as dictator" with "Stalin was elected." Assuming that you were committing bad faith edits, I unconsciously revised your second edit as well. I did not cite The Life and Death of Stalin and I did not have anything to do with the fabrication of the quote. If you like, you can view the history of the "Antisemitism in the Soviet Union" article yourself to identify whoever made this change. It's important to treat fellow human beings with respect, even if you feel they have wronged you. The idea that I should be banned for such a small mistake is very disrespectful. For the sake of simplicity, please keep future conversations either to the talk page for Antisemitism in the Soviet Union or my personal talk page. Dima Nekhoroshyi (talk) 22:31, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

I am not suggesting that you should be banned but whoever originally inserted it, as the original insertion was obviously willfully fabricated. I was simply pointing out that you attempted to undo the revision in case it turned into an edit war. 96.60.79.128 (talk) 23:07, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

As it is now becoming, with you now being on the record providing a fictitious quote that does not exist in the source you provided yourself. 96.60.79.128 (talk) 23:15, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

I apologize for mistaking my mistake as a mistake. Apparently you have the wrong version.

If you read

https://archive.org/details/dli.ernet.526955/page/61/mode/2up?q=%22Soviet+Government%22

you will find the quote on page 62. Dima Nekhoroshyi (talk) 23:06, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

This is the entire text of page 62 on your link. The quote does not appear.

THE LIFE AND DEATH OF STALIN

with others without previous instruction from Stalin about the matters under discussion was almost a waste of time.’

Stalin’s temperament and penalties have the effect of surround¬ ing him with quaking Yes-men from whom he cannot extract the truth.

The only known No-raan who miraculously survived — perhaps because Stalin secretly respects audacity — was Maxim M. Lit¬ vinov, Soviet Commissar of Foreign Affairs from 1930 to 1939. Litvinov was always tough and direct. Physically robust, mentally alert, sharp and resilient, he could bark and growl at assistants yet earn their affection. They called him ‘Papasha’. He had been closely associated with Stalin in pre-revolutionary work. He had intestinal courage. He obstructed the attempts of the secret police to infiltrate his department. He talked back in private to Stalin.

On May 3rd, 1939, Foreign Commissar Litvinov was asked to report to Stalin. He found Molotov there. Litvinov hated Molo¬ tov. Molotov is not his type. He had contempt for cringing sycophants.

Litvinov sat down at the table. Molotov began the conver¬ sation. The Soviet government, he said, intended to improve its relations with Hitler and, if possible, sign a pact with Nazi Ger¬ many. As a Jew and as an avowed opponent of such a policy, Litvinov stood in the way.

Litvinov was angry. He asserted that an alliance between Mos¬ cow and Hitler would spell disaster. He sketched the possibilities. He argued. He banged the table. Stalin sucked his pipe.

After listening for an hour without uttering a single word, Stalin put down his pipe and said, ‘Enough.’ Then thrusting a paper in Litvinov’s direction, Stalin said, ‘Sign.’ It was Litvinov’s letter of resignation. Litvinov signed.

Molotov succeeded Litvinov as Foreign Minister.

Litvinov retired to a bungalow in the woods outside Moscow. He played much bridge, learned to type, read a great deal, and took long walks. He was completely isolated from Soviet politics.

Two years and seven weeks passed. Hitler invaded Russia. Some time later, the telephone in Litvinov’s bungalow rang. It was an almost forgotten sound. Stalin invited Litvinov to his office and instructed him to deliver a radio address. He wanted the world to hear an authentic anti-Nazi voice from the Kremlin 96.60.79.128 (talk) 23:11, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

"The Soviet government, he said, intended to improve its relations with Hitler and, if possible, sign a pact with Nazi Germany. As a Jew and as an avowed opponent of such a policy, Litvinov stood in the way." on page 62, which you provided

Compared with:

"The Soviet Government intended to improve its relations with Hitler and if possible sign a pact with Nazi Germany. As a Jew and an avowed opponent of such a policy, Litvinov stood in the way." in the article

I hope this ends our discussion. Dima Nekhoroshyi (talk) 23:17, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

This is beginning to seem willful.

"Molotov began the conver¬ sation. The Soviet government, he said, intended to improve its relations with Hitler and, if possible, sign a pact with Nazi Ger¬ many"

Is Joseph Stalin's name Molotov? 96.60.79.128 (talk) 23:29, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

If you are going to continue undoing it now, please explain why you believe Joseph Stalin's name to be Molotov. 96.60.79.128 (talk) 23:41, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Holocaust Denial?

Is there an actual source for the claim that "Victimization of Jews in the USSR at the hands of the Nazis was denied"? Not only is this very confusingly written, the given source for this claim, #26, is itself an unsourced, Islamophobic screed against Cuba (written by an avowedly anti-communist sociologist, not an historian of the USSR, the Holocaust, or antisemitism generally). Even if this were a trustworthy source - which, again, it is self-evidently not - it doesn't even make this claim: The article says that there was "denial of their [the Jews'] special victimization at the hands of the Nazi regime" not that "Victimization of Jews in the USSR at the hands of the Nazis was denied." Overall, the claim that the same people who liberated many of the camps also denied the Holocaust is an extraordinary one and requires more support than...whatever the heck is being offered in source #26.

Michlusky (talk) 13:17, 23 September 2024 (UTC)