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Nationality

Having actually read all the past discussions on Murray's nationality thoroughly, I cannot see a clear consensus for the introductory sentence to describe him simply as Scottish. Yet when I change it to describe him as ”British from Scotland" (a formula use to describe British racing drivers), it is reverted instantly claiming there is consensus for only Scottish. So I see no other solution than rising this again. Sure Andy is Scottish , but that doesn't mean he isn't British. He is undisputedly both. As the article itself explains in the national identity section, he identifies as both (and that contradicts the footnote in support of Scottish). In Andy's case, as an international tennis star, his British nationality is the much more relevant one. It's the one that most people will read or hear when he is referred to in the international press. The Telegraph from the UK and The US Open themselves referred to him as the first British male to win a Grand Slam title for 76 years upon winning the 2012 US Open. In 2013 Wimbledon and the entire UK celebrated him the first British man to win the tournament in 77 years. BBC from the UK hailed him as the first Brit in 110 years to win Olympic singles gold. He even won two medals for the UK/Team GB at the 2012 Olympics. Heck, I was even in the stands when he beat my country in their second ever Davis Cup final, both of which they lost to Great Britain. Considering all that, I really question what the justification for excluding the word British from the lead is? Surely we can introduce him as a British tennis player from Scotland? That presents both his national identities and perfectly shows how he is internationally known. Tvx1 23:13, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

The article is as it is because it is a compromise that works, minimizing edit warring on something that was repeatedly changed. Yes, he is both Scottish and British. That's why the compromise uses "Scottish" in the lead, and "British" in the infobox. It's not the other way around because the guidelines for the infobox specify competing country.
Describing him as "British from Scotland" is a confusing play on words that almost no-one is going to be happy with. "British from Scotland" can be read as a deliberate avoidance of the word "Scottish" for very specific political reasons.
If you don't follow; consider if he was "British from Northern Ireland", avoiding the description of "Irish". Or, maybe to use a Belgian example; "Belgium from Flanders", deliberately not calling him "Flemish".
If Murray is happy to known as both, then there is no reason why the article cannot describe him as both. I'm sure I could find just as many cites that describe him as Scottish, and if any readers are confused to why he is described as Scottish, when they know him exclusively as British, then there is plenty in the article (and Wikipedia) to enlighten them. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 12:27, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
Nothing of what you say is justification for excluding British from the lead. What do we allow us to be bullied by those raising Scottish propaganda. We should not describe subjects in the way some editors want, we should describe a subject the way he actually appears in a real life. And Andy Murray is most widely known as a British tennis star, so it's perfectly OK and accurate to describe him as such. There's no need to compromise for the sake of compromising. British works perfectly for the articles of dozens of other sportspeople who compete as British, so why make an exception for Murray? Tvx1 13:24, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
Please acquaint yourself with the guidelines regarding this particular situation before commenting or acting any further. All articles are the result of collaboration and compromise among editors, that's how Wikipedia works and it doesn't help suggesting that differing opinions are the result of 'propaganda'. There is no straight-forward, one-size-fits-all answer to this difficult topic, and the article as it stands is a solution that has existed with minimal dispute for a number of years now. You'll need a very good reason for altering it. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 14:07, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
Escape Orbit is correct here. There was much edit warring and bickering on this issue until compromises were reached. It has worked better than anything in the past. He has always been fiercely Scottish but he represents Great Britain in international sports. Hence the lead and the infobox. And Murray gets a special National Identity section where further and more detailed explanations go. It has kept this article focused on his tennis instead of his nationality. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:21, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
Your claim that that is a guideline makes me laugh. It's an just an essay and thus holds no regulatory value. There is no evidence that it is supported by community consensus. Even so it supports my stance more than yours. Particularly the section "Guide to finding UK nationality". "Look specifically for evidence that the person has a preferred nationality", well Andy identifies as both, so that doesn't support excluding either. "For sportspeople, their nationality is usually described by the national team that they qualify to represent or, in individual sports, the national sports association or federation with which they are registered.", Andy plays for the UK in the Davis Cup, Hopman Cup and the Olympics. This again supports mentioning British in the lead. The claim to Andy has "always" been fiercely Scottish is outright ridiculous. He has always identified as both as the article clearly explains. Choosing content out of fear of edit warring is very lame and exactly what I meant with us letting ourself being bullied in to compromising. Lastly, I will reiterate that I actually did bother to read all the previous discussion on his nationality and none of them show a consensus for the current situation. Even worse, a whopping 90% of them actually call for British being included in the lead, yet for some reasons they are ignored. Tvx1 18:40, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
It's an essay, but one that is referenced frequently on this issue. It's a sensible and pragmatic approach to this problem where there is no single 'right' answer. Do you have a specific problem with what it says, or only when it doesn't give you the answer you are looking for?
Neither nationality is "excluded". He is British in the info box and described as British seven times in the lead section (compared to Scottish once). We then have an entire section devoted to the question of his nationality. How does this make "British" ignored?
I find your description of reaching a consensus as "letting ourself being bullied in to compromising" troubling. As I've said before; editing Wikipedia is all about compromising. It's how it works and how we avoid articles being constant battlegrounds where no-one accepts anything until they get exactly what they want.
There is such a thing as consensus through long-term acceptance. The article as it stands is far less subjected to edit-wars than it was previously. Changing it just because you don't like it, rather than on any factual basis, is certain to result in a return to the edit-wars. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 10:55, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
What about simply Scottish-British. I know it may not sound right, but technically it is correct. CDRL102 (talk) 22:35, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
I get your thinking, but I don't think making-up nationality descriptions is the answer.--Escape Orbit (Talk) 10:55, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
I don't accept the guideline which is just the opinion of a few editors and has been used to push regionalism nationalism on uk articles. But from reading the article and the section on sports people it is obvious that Andy Murray's article should state British not Scottish. Why does every other country have their state nationality stated but for the UK there is a presumption it should not be British. There is a nationalist agenda here promoting separatism. Unbelievable that wikipedia has allowed this to happen to so many articles because of certain editors. The introduction is currently unacceptable and should be fixed to reflect the fact he is a British tennis player. RedCoil (talk) 10:40, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
* Please try to assume good faith before assigning motives to other editors.
* I don't think it is obvious at all. The guidelines on the sports infoboxes are quite clear, but there is much more flexibility on the article itself.
* The situation with the UK has always been more complicated than most other countries. It is ridiculous to pretend otherwise.
--Escape Orbit (Talk) 11:06, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

The current version of this article is biased and has been written to undermine the fact Andy Murray is British. Andy is the British No 1 but that is treated as a minor point in the second large paragraph instead of in the first sentence. He is a British tennis player, not a Scottish one. This article should be corrected to properly reflect that. I am sick of nationalism of editors pushing their agenda on this and so many other articles. Please fix it because this article introduction is currently a joke like so many other articles ruined by Scottish nationalists. RedCoil (talk) 10:31, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

I did explain that the even essay supports British more than Scottish, didn't I. In an case like say James McFadden it's fine to describe the subject in question as Scottish because he has been spending the entirety of his international sports career representing Scotland. For Andy Murray the situation is clearly different. He has spend the entirety of his international tennis career representing and winning trophies and medals for the UK (Davis Cup, Hopman Cup and Olympics). He has also managed numerous British achievements. Moreover the article carefully explains that he identifies as both and not simply as "fiercely Scottish". Therefore mentioning Scottish in the lead first and foremost as his most important national identity is completely inappropriate. It would be fine to mention it somewhere, but his Britishness should always been given precedence. That's why I suggested the formula we use for British racing driver, whose sporting situation is identical to Murray's. And it works perfectly because no one has change the nationality for e.g. Lewis Hamilton to English or for Jackie Stewart to Scottish. That's clear proof that if you have a clear consensus to refer to edit warring quickly dries down. Tvx1 12:33, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

To counter each of your points;
  • The essay equally says "Do not enforce uniformity".
  • Murray spends most of the entirety of his career representing no nation. He plays as an individual.
  • Every one of his numerous British achievements are also Scottish achievements.
  • He identifies as both, and yet you want to remove mention of one entirely from the lead? Saying that someone is "British from Scotland" is distinctly not the same thing.
  • What maintains consensus on other articles are no guarantees on this article.
  • The current wording has lasted years and edit warring has died down. That's clear proof that this works for this article. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 15:54, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
I'm not trying to "enforce" uniformity. But it formula that has been proven work to describe a British sportsperson as British on other articles it's more than certainly worth considering to implement it here as well. I'm no trying to eliminate one entirely from the lead. I want the lead to handle his national identities in balance with their real-life relevance. Right now, Scottish is promoted as his primary nationality, with is absolutely inaccurate. While he might not be officially representing his country (i.e the UK), he is doing so unnofficialy and every time someone sees him playing in a tournament they see his nationality been presented on screen as British often accompagnied by an Union Jack. That my proposal does not say what I claim it says is just your personal opinion. That it says what I claim it says is proven by it working in dozens of other sportspeople's articles. Furthermore you cannot force us to obey an essay. They aren't policies and are trumped by talkpage consensus. Lastly, fear of editwarring is not a reason in itself to refuse a change. In fact, you're currently the only one editwarring in favor of simply "Scottish". Tvx1 14:46, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
I don't think anyone is forcing someone to obey an essay. You can't. You can't force anyone to obey a guideline either. Only policies can be enforced at wikipedia. The rest is done by consensus and compromise. This has been more a defacto truce that has worked well. I'm guessing a lot boiled up with the anti-england remarks from Andy at a past wimbledon, and then again during the independence vote, but whatever it was it caused a lot of problems here. He is a Scottish tennis player, that is fact. He is represented by Great Britain as far as international tennis goes. All players must be represented by a country or they can't register with the ITF. I really don't care which way it's worded, just so we don't have constant edit wars. I guess we could try another RfC to see if anything has changed to overwhelming support for one or the other, or the status quo. But the last one ended the same as others... with an upset closing admin saying "yada yada yada" "This has been discussed to death, people". We seem to go through this every summer but at least the edit warring has stopped. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:03, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
How is Scottish being promoted as his "primary" nationality? How is it "totally inaccurate"? It seems completely accurate to me, and the entire article is chock-full of references to his British nationality. Visible on this article there are;
  • Mentions of "British" = 36
  • Mentions of "Scottish" = 18
That's twice as many. If anything the article is completely in line with how you claim he is seen internationally.
What works on other articles is of little interest. What's there works on this one, it is totally accurate, balances his stated preference of both nationalities, and has been a stable solution for some years. You have presented nothing that shows how your proposal represents an improvement on any of these points. Instead it represents a regressive step of removing one of nationalities. How can that be an improvement? --Escape Orbit (Talk) 20:50, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
The fact that is mentioned halfway in the very first sentence on top of the article is a very clear statement that Scottish is most important nationality. And that is completely inaccurate. He identifies as both to on a equal extent, but as a tennis player is mostly identified as British during coverage of his matches. If you're that desperate to have the explicit word "Scottish" in the lead, you could always add a sentence about him becoming the first Scottish player in over a hundred years to win a Grand Slam singles title by winning the 2012 US Open. That way the word Scottish would remain in the lead even when it is changed to British in the opening sentence. Tvx1 22:14, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
'Scottish' is mentioned halfway in the first sentence because 'British' is mentioned repeatedly throughout the lead and in the infobox. It's not perfect, but it is the best way of giving both equal balance, a reflection of the balance that Murray gives them. And that's what is most important. What he identifies as. Not how others identify him. Not how you identify him. Relegating 'Scottish' to an aside on an insignificant fact is the exact opposite of allowing the article to reflect the balance of the two.
The person who is 'desperate' here is you, the person who is desperate to change a lead sentence that is long term stable and completely accurate. And for no good reason. No-one is going to be mislead by what it says, and if any reader is confused by it, all they have to do is continue reading to be fully informed. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 21:02, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Andy murray is British Number 1 and that is one of the things that makes him most notable. It is totally inappropriate that there is a deliberate political agenda here to avoid stating he is British and even British number 1 in the opening sentences of this article. The fact a small number of editors here with what seems to be a political agenda refuse to allow the article to be fixed is shocking. Andy murray is a professional British tennis player... he plays for Britain in every competition except at the commonwealth games. It makes sense to have footballers stating the nationality of the team they play for, but equally it makes sense for sportsmen and women who represent Britain on almost all occasions to be called British. There is an attempt to mislead people... calling him a professional scottish tennis player is inaccurate as hes plays professional tennis for Britain, not Scotland. the fact it has been allowed to remain incorrect and biased for so long is no justification for keeping this article in its current state. Some dodgy compromise cooked up by a few people in the past attempting to rewrite facts is plain wrong. RedCoil (talk) 08:18, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

Um sorry, but British No. 1 is a bit down on the list of what makes Andy Murray most notable. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:50, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
Red Coil is right though. The opening sentence is misleading. Murray is a Scot (and also a Brit) and he plays tennis, yes, but he is not a "Scottish tennis player". As a tennis player, he is British. He plays professional tennis under the British flag. Tvx1 11:32, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
He is a tennis player. As a person he is Scottish and British. Therefore is equally true to say he is a Scottish tennis player and the British #1. I'm puzzled why you find this confusing. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 12:41, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
He does not "play for Britain in every competition except the commononwealth games", otherwise I'd be asking where is my percentage of his winning millions. He plays for himself. There is no "deliberate political agenda here to avoid stating he is British", and as long as you approach the discussion with this bad-faith conspiracy theory you'll be ignored. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 12:41, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
He doesn't always play for himself. He has won the Davis Cup for Great Britain, he has appeared in a couple of olympics and won two Olympic medals for the UK and he has reached a Hopman Cup final for that same country. But even when his is not physically collecting trophies for his country he can still be unofficially representing them. Every tournament draw that is published has a GBR or an Union Jack next to his name. Lastly, in contrary to his brother, Andy has not participated in the Commonwealth Games (yet). Tvx1 20:21, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
There is a Union Jack next to his name at the top of this article. Right next to where it says Great Britain. Again this article does exactly what you claim happens elsewhere. So where is the problem? --Escape Orbit (Talk) 12:32, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
Saw this and this? The information is still edited despite "the compromise". In fact, the pending changes protection is much more effective against the edit-warring/vandalism than naming him Scottish in the opening sentence. Tvx1 14:26, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
The near constant editing regarding his nationality is clearly showing that this compromise is NOT working. Tvx1 22:56, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
But it's almost always by anon IP's and during big events. Before it was by everyone. But I admit it has picked up a bit as of late and I'm not sure what can be done. It can say "Scottish and British professional tennis player" and also "Great Britain and Scotland" under country in his infobox. That's an even setting, but no more so than Scottish in one place while British in the other. And another thing... the truce was based on Scotland in the intro paragraph alongside British No. 1 while we had Great Britain and the British flag in the infobox. Since then on July 10 2016 a one-time IP user slipped into the first paragraph "Murray represents Great Britain in his sporting activities." It is fine with me but actually makes it more unbalanced from the compromise and we're lucky no one has started inserting the Scottish flag in the infobox because Andy has represented Scotland when playing for the Aberdeen Cup. It'll always be a bit tricky to manage. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:09, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
No we cannot add Scotland to the infobox as that deals with sporting nationality and Andy Murray has only represented Great Britain officially in his tennis activities. The Aberdeen Cup was an exhibition which only existed for two years for which there are no clear indications that there were any official rules/limitations as to who could represent which team. This is clearly different to the ITF sanctioned national teams who compete at Davis, Fed and Hopman Cups as well as the Olympics. This is also not comparable to for instance Andy's brother representing Scotland at the Commonwealth Games. It's very obvious why the editing takes up at times like these. For instance, a couple of hours ago the whole world could watch Andy Murray's name being combined with a British flag and a GBR on the on screen TV graphics during the five sets he played against Kei Nishikori. As a solution I was again draw attention to the motorsports way of dealing with this I mentioned near the beginning of this discussion. That formula works perfectly on the articles concerned. Tvx1 00:32, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
Which is why his only Flag was decided upon being from Great Britain and it says his country nationality is Great Britain. And the compromise about keeping it that way was to give in to the fact he is intensely Scottish and has always said as much. We leave that in the opening. I don't see what the big deal is but I don't have a horse in his nationality race. The Aberdeen Cup is certainly different than the ITF, but the fact remains he played in it, represented Scotland, and it was a sport. The other thing that was done for awhile was to leave him as the only player without a flag icon, since it is controversial. Murray's own words about being intensely Scottish exacerbate the controversy. He said he would have represented Scotland at the 2014 Commonwealth games, but they dropped the sport. These type words bring out the Scots and the US Open brings out the Brits. A no win scenario. Fyunck(click) (talk) 02:13, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
"Working" is a matter of degree. Do you honestly believe that changing the article to remove "Scottish" will put a stop to the constant edits? All that will happen is constant edits to restore it. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 20:52, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
Yes, I honestly believe that it's worth giving a formula that has easily worked for other people a chance here and I'm pretty confident it will work. Murray is never shown with a Scottish flag or a SCO on screen so there won't be even remotely the same amount of people coming here and being surprised with seeing him being described as British in the opening sentence. And the intensity of his Scottish is also a matter of degree. He did have the opportunity to represent them at the Commonwealth games in 2010 but for some reason neglected to. And he can be said to be equally intensely British. He was the flag bearer (of the British flag of course) at the 2016 Olympics and sang along to God Save the Queen (the British national anthem) upon receiving his second singles olympic gold medal. Tvx1 15:42, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
I wish we could throw a bucket of cold water over anyone who reignites this debate. Murray's passport undoubtedly says that he is a British citizen, because it isn't possible to have Scottish citizenship. He also plays for the British Davis Cup tennis team because that is the way that it is organised. It isn't like football or rugby where England and Scotland can play one another. For some reason, James Clerk Maxwell's Scottishness never seems to set of this revolving door debate.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 21:25, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

See, even in this discussion there are more supporters for changing the opening sentence to British, rather than to keep it at Scottish. In fact, none of the fifteen

discussions on this issue I have found in this talk page's archives, demonstrates a clear consensus for introducing him as Scottish. Most often an essay and his "self-indication" is given undue or even incorrect weight. Al the while this continuously edited to British. Multiple times per month, and each time it is pedantically reverted because of a nonexistent consensus. The most important reason for this is the absence of a strong consensus on the matter, because every attempt at a good-faith discussion is immediately halted because "it was discussed before". That results in us clearly promoting the lesser important and notable of his two national identities.Tvx1 16:39, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

For most famous people here on wikipedia, Scottish is always used. All one has to do is check out List of Scots to see it is overwhelming ad nauseam in favor of using Scottish to notable people from Scotland. And Murray didn't stop becoming Scottish just because he plays for Great Britain in most tennis events. He has always placed an emphasis on being Scottish (many sources). He is a Scottish tennis player and he plays for all of Great Britain in ITF and ATP events. If we say he is Scottish that also implies he is British. If we say he is British that does not imply he is Scottish. We actually get more precise info by saying he is Scottish. The lead already points out that "Murray represents Great Britain in his sporting activities." His infobox flag is that of Great Britain also because it's his sporting nationality. In 2007 we had fights over the flag icon where it was often Scottish, sometimes Scottish and British, and sometime British. That fighting has also stopped because of Scottish being in the lead. Not too long ago it didn't mention that "Murray represents Great Britain in his sporting activities", but I see it does now. But to strip Scottish from the lead seems wrong especially when compared to all the other notable Scottish people in Wikipedia. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:20, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
Actually the word Scottish it should be linked to this article Scottish national identity however that article does not make clear that Scotland is not a independent sovereign state that enables someone to define their Nationality by, also here http://geography.about.com/od/politicalgeography/a/scotlandnot.htm the author is a University of California and California State University graduate specializing in political geography. The point he makes about Scotland and Nationality concludes "Thus, as you can plainly see, Scotland (nor Wales, nor Northern Ireland, nor England itself) is not an independent country nor is it a State. However, Scotland is most certainly a nation of people living in an internal division of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" and as the article on Nationality clearly states Nationality is (defined by) the legal relationship between a person and a sovereign state per "Dual Nationality in the European Union: A Study on Changing Norms in Public and Private International Law and in the Municipal Laws of Four EU Member States|date=March 19, 2012|publisher=Martinus Nijhoff Publishers" pages=19–20. Nationality affords the state jurisdiction over the person and affords the person the protection of the state. What these rights and duties are vary from state to state per "Nationality and Statelessness in International Law" p. 29–61 therefore using the term Scottish may or may not imply his primary nationality is Scottish and linking it to the national Scottish identity article helps the reader understand how he identifies himself but as the articles states its only an idea. I say this as British with a Welsh father and Irish mother my cultural heritage/identity is essentially Celtic and yet British which is the irony here originates anyway from the Celtic Britons and the indigenous Brittonic-Pictish Celtic inhabitants of Great Britain and Brittany so being British is also being of a Celtic nation essentially the Welsh and Scots have a view of the English that stirs up stuff being conquered by them mainly and again ironically here the English or Angles were essentially German you need to listen to debates from some English football fans when there playing Germany and its really down to the Romans for calling us the land of Britannia or Britani or as the ancient Greeks called us Pictani or painted people which explains why we love tattoos apparently when the Greeks first saw us we were painted blue and tattooed which explains a lot.--Navops47 (talk) 13:07, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
More irony it would seem that the Scots themselves are actually Irish settlers who arrived in Caledonia in the 5th century so I disagree British does imply Scottish, Welsh as well as English based on the name given to inhabitants of the island of Britannia by the Italians 2000 years ago but not Northern Ireland as that was part of Hibernia.--Navops47 (talk) 13:40, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
And the Irish may infact be from Spain so Murray is a Spanish player by way of the Scoti by way of the Iverni from tribes that came to Ireland from Iberia can we put that in the lead.--Navops47 (talk) 13:52, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
British isn't only his sporting nationality. It's his legal nationality as well. He is a citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. He is British just like I am Belgian and not Flemish. The biggest argument that is raised again and again in favour of introducing him as "Scottish" is the essay WP:UKNATIONALS. As little value as an essay has in the first place, it is being utterly misapplied. Firstly, it advises to look for evidence of a preferred nationality of the subject. One quote from him from a long time ago is however misinterpreted as him fiercely preferring to be identifies as Scottish. In reality however, he as always been identifying as both. I have given multiple examples how he quite proudly identifies as British as well. Secondly, the aforementioned essay also states that for sportspeople their nationality is usually described by the national team that they qualify to represent or, in individual sports, the national sports association or federation with which they are registered. Andy has both competed as part of British tennis teams and is registered with the British LTA. This all combined mean that the cited essay actually indicates that this subject should be introduced as British. But more important than the essay there are guidelines and certainly policies like MOS:OPENPARA and WP:DUE which carry much greater importance. Given that Andy is notable as a British tennis player and is presented in the press and in on-screen graphics in excess of 90% of times as such, that's the description we should use as well and the current version of the article gives undue weight on his Scottishness. I'm not suggesting that we should strip his Scottishness entirely from the lead, however. The lead should be brought in balance with the real life facts and his Britishness should be given priority in the opening sentence. His Scottishness can than be mentioned further down in the lead or a formula used for other sportspeople ,who have always represented the UK like Sir Jackie Stewart or David Coulthard, without any controversy could be implemented here as well.Tvx1 15:18, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
I agree with you I have this had discussion myself in the past with all the same arguments and the legal ones which are factually correct unfortunately you get now where as far as some editors are concerned the point of my post was to make defending the inclusion of Scottish by some look utterly ridiculous if you genuinely expand the argument about the Scotti later known as Scots and country is Scotland hence originally from Ireland in turn the Irish could be from Spain originally therefore technically Murrays national identity should be Spanish. I have read the article in determining a sportsman nationality (the legal term) and my interpretation is the same as yours others are clearly reading that article and interpreting it differently you will go blue in the face trying there is no legal defined status of English, Welsh, Scottish nationality as explained by the definition in the nationality article so WP:UKNATIONALS is also incorrect in its guidelines about defining UK nationality in regards to Scottish Welsh and English, now WP:DUE thats the key thing going on here and believe that due and undue weight is not being correctly applied in terms of the Majority of sources the section states

Wikipedia should not present a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserves as much attention overall as the majority view. Views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views (such as Flat Earth).

To give undue weight to the view of a significant minority, or to include that of a tiny minority, might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute. Wikipedia aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation in reliable sources on the subject. This applies not only to article text, but to images, wikilinks, external links, categories, and all other material as well.

Paraphrased from Jimbo Wales' September 2003 post on the WikiEN-l mailing list: If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts; If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents; If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small minority, it does not belong on Wikipedia, regardless of whether it is true or you can prove it, except perhaps in some ancillary article.

Keep in mind that, in determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources, not its prevalence among Wikipedia editors or the general public.

If you can prove a theory that few or none currently believe, Wikipedia is not the place to present such a proof. Once it has been presented and discussed in reliable sources, it may be appropriately included.--Navops47 (talk) 16:14, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Last point shouldn't we take the official source from the man himself http://www.andymurray.com/profile/ when writing about him and present that correctly?--Navops47 (talk) 16:36, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
We also have him directly quoted as being Scottish and British. The press also views him as both. Other than And Murray, Wikipedia tends to write than notable Scottish people are Scottish rather than British. It is long-standing in the way it is presented here (although tweaks have happened to make sure it is understood he play for Great Britain). I don't see anything wrong with how it works right now. We could certainly have an RfC on the issue but the Scottish and British wikiprojects would have a huge say on the result. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:45, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
Well this is a ridiculous observation. Of course the edits you keep seeing are changing the lead line from Scottish to British. That's because the article's long term consensus has always been for it to say "Scottish". You can't know how often it would be changed from "British" to "Scottish", because that's not what the article says. In fact, any time in the past it has said "British" it has been regularly changed to "Scottish", and the edit wars commence. And the article still sees frequent changes of "British" to "Scottish" in the infobox. So to pretend that modifying the lead sentence would solve the problem flies in the face of past and present evidence.
This is why we have the existing compromise that has proven to be the best of a bad lot. It is, I have always argued, the best way to balance the two nationalities that Murray self-identifies as. There are ample references to Murray being British elsewhere in the lead.
I would also dispute your evaluation of past discussion. All the past discussion proves is that this is a contentious issue. We will have, with regular monotony, people raising it because they don't like what the article says. I am happy to have anyone propose a better solution, but am not happy for it to be complete removal of "Scottish" from the lead, or any sort of mealy-mouthed made-up category such as "British from Scotland". What balance between the two do you propose? --Escape Orbit (Talk) 21:20, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
I still don't see how introducing him in the opening sentence with the lesser notable and lesser-referred-to-in-real-life of his two national identities is anywhere near "balance". It's also in contradiction of the essay you keep using as justification for it. There is no "long-standing consensus for this version" because none of the discussion that was ever held on this matter actually reached it, so please stop telling these untruths. And even if it did, consensus can change so please stop trying to prevent constructive discussion because there allegedly already is a consensus. I made two proposals to bring accurate balance on more than one occasion in this discussion. Using "British from Scotland" is one, while the other is to use British in the opening sentence and mentioning Scottish somewhere further down the lead. It's to bad you don't like the former, but is not the case that we need you personal approval to make a change. So please stop acting like you have the ultimate authority on deciding the outcome of this discussion and actually fully read and assess other contributors' arguments. They have just as much value as yours.Tvx1 14:23, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
  • There is long standing consensus for "Scottish" by the very fact that it has successfully remained in the article long-term, and there is no consensus for changing it.
  • Using "Scottish" in the lead sentence is balance because "British" is used on every other occasion in the lead paragraph and in the infobox.
  • The essay that you are so dismissive of is the best document we have that covers this issue and has been compiled by a great number of Wikipedians over many years using their experience. You'd be well advised to heed what it says because this article is not a special case with arguments that have never been encountered before.
  • I think I've already explained the problem with "British from Scotland". It suggests a deliberate, and cumbersome, avoidance of using the word "Scottish", and a political stance associated with it.
  • You've frequently referred to "lesser-referred-to-in-real-life of his two national identities", but have made no attempt to back this statement up. But regardless of that, it is not a little known fact that he is Scottish and not a fact undeserving of the lead. The article has an entire section on the matter.
  • Whatever your thoughts, the existing article has been far more successful at avoiding disruptive edit warring than any other previous incarnation. I am extremely sceptical that a re-write to lead with his British identity will magically make everyone happy and be more successful or accurate. If you imagine that is what will happen then you are blind to this article's history
  • I am not interested in entering debates about citizenship, nationality or the historical status of Scotland. As WP:UKNATIONALS explains, these are not the answer to this issue, because there is no definitive answer to be found there. Wikipedia is not a record of nationality or citizenship and it is not a record of someone's passport.
  • I have already asked you to propose an alternative. One that will not immediately trigger constant edit warring. Please let us see what you suggest.
--Escape Orbit (Talk) 19:49, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
If it's so ungodly unbalanced now, I wonder what some would think if the first line was changed to British, but all other references to British would be expunged and changed to Scottish and the infobox flag changed to one for Scotland? I'm guessing it wouldn't go well either. I still feel that Murray is being somewhat singled out in this attack since most notable Scots start with a lead of "Scottish" not British. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:38, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
I'll repeat again that the questioned essay actually is not in support of the current situation. I have made not one but two proposals on multiple occasions in this discussion. If you don't bother to read both of them, that's your problem. And most notable Scots start with lead of "Scottish"? Please see Jackie Stewart, Jim Clark, David Coulthard, Jimmy Stewart, Ian Stewart, Paul di Resta, Allan McNish, Dario Franchitti, Jamie Baker, Colin Fleming, Patrick Bowes-Lyon and so and so on. There is also no attempt from my side to push any political stance. It's just about correctly representing the real life facts regarding this person. The fact is that Scotland is not a sovereign state. Rather it is a nation with some autonomy within the United Kingdom (and thus its status isn't any different than the ones of Flanders and Walloonia in my home country thought they aren't actually called "nations"). The legal nationality of every citizen of the UK is British and Andy Murray, just like every other tennis player from the UK, plays under that nationality. I have no problem with Scotland or Scots and the day it does become a sovereign state and Andy starts playing with its legal nationality I'll gladly update this article to reflect that. It wouldn't even be a unique situation as it would be comparable to Helena Suková first being a Czechoslovak tennis player and later a Czech one or even Novak Djokovic being a Yugoslavian tennis player as a junior, a Serbia and Montenegro tennis player during his early professional career and later on a Serbian tennis player.Tvx1 13:30, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Sir?

As far as I'm aware, being awarded an OBE doesn't make you a knight nor does it entitle the holder to the prefix Sir. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.124.241.55 (talk) 23:37, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

He was awarded the OBE in 2013 and was knighted in the 2017 honours list. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 00:11, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

Yes, but he's not actually a knight yet. The honour has been announced but not yet conferred. I suggest removing the Sir tag until it's accurate (which will be soon enough). Brooklyn Eagle (talk) 02:49, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

This gives us something new to argue about, which makes a change from "Is he Scottish or British?" He hasn't been to Buckingham Palace and had a sword on his shoulder yet, but the honour has been conferred. Ken Dodd is now referred to as "Sir Ken Dodd" in this BBC News story and his Wikipedia article. I would welcome a clarification from someone who knows how knighthoods work.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 06:23, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
A knighthood takes effect when it is published in a Gazette. If Murray has been made a knight bachelor, there would be no additional postnominal. 1.126.49.2 (talk) 09:47, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
The Queen has only signified an intention to confer knighthood[1]. It can take several months before the knighthood is actually conferred. Compare the notices for someone like Clive Cowdery - announced new years honours,[2] added to Wikipedia ("was knighted") the same day[3], Knighthood conferred 15 March[4] I'm going to say it's overly ambitious to keep it out of the article. People are going to be calling him "Sir" regardless. -- zzuuzz (talk) 10:27, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
See WP:HONORIFIC manual of style guideline - "titles signifying honours awarded by the United Kingdom (i.e. Sir, Dame) may be used as soon as they are gazetted. Investiture is not necessary." --Escape Orbit (Talk) 16:19, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

Request for Comment British tennis player or Scottish tennis player

(non-admin closure) Rough consensus is for option 2 ("Andy Murray is a British tennis player from Scotland").- MrX 12:01, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Okay its time to settle this discussion we have not had an RFC to settle this question and I ask all editors to look at the guidelines for WP:Nationality of people from the United Kingdom and in relation to this RFC the sub section within that dealing with sport Guide to finding UK nationality/Sport you also need to read WP:NPOV-Due and undue weight in determining your comments.

Currently we have a number of Editors in two camps those who feel that according to UK Nationality Guide section on Sport then we should be stating British tennis player first and references to his National identity second

For other Editors its the opposite way round preferring Scottish tennis player first references to British second. You will note in some of the examples that I have provided in relation to notable tennis players from the UK the leads are mixed if we are to follow the sports sub section guidelines in relation to this particular sport we need to ask are those being followed? Not just for this article but also the others.

I would also ask that you look at the articles on Nationality, Nation, and National identity as they are quite different things and do your own research.

Options do we

Keep the lead as is (Andy Murray is a Scottish professional tennis player currently ranked world No. 1 in men's singles. Murray represents Great Britain...) to avoid edit warring.

Change the lead to read per the guidelines interpretation to read.

  1. Andy Murray is a British tennis player from Scotland
  2. Andy Murray is a British tennis player born in Scotland
  3. Andy Murray is a Scottish born British tennis player

Editors are free to add other suggestions at any point my preference would be option one that is in line with the quotation example from Andy Murray and keeping in line with the national and international sport associations view that I provided please lets keep this discussion as civil as possible and be as balanced as you can.--Navops47 (talk) 07:38, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Other Scottish Players leads

  • John Clifton (born 19 February 1946) is a Scottish former professional tennis player.
  • Jamie Baker (born 5 August 1986) is a retired British professional male tennis player, who was British No. 2 in 2008.
  • Alan Mackin (born 11 August 1981) is a former professional tennis player from Scotland who competed for Great Britain in Davis Cup.
  • Harold Segerson Mahony (13 February 1867 – 27 June 1905) was a Scottish-born Irish tennis player who is best known for winning the singles title at the Wimbledon Championships in 1896.

Other UK tennis players

  • Frederick John "Fred" Perry (18 May 1909 – 2 February 1995) was an English tennis and table tennis player and former World No. 1 who won 10 Majors including eight Grand Slams and two Pro Slams single titles,
  • Arthur William Charles Wentworth Gore (2 January 1868 – 1 December 1928) was a British tennis player.
  • Dr. Wilberforce Vaughan Eaves MBE (10 December 1867 – 10 February 1920) was a former co-World No. 1 male tennis player from the United Kingdom.

UK Census 2011 respondents were asked what is your national identity?

Guide to finding UK nationality

Sport

  • For sportspeople, their nationality is usually described by the national team that they qualify to represent or, in individual sports, the national sports association or federation with which they are registered.

Examples of individual sports men who compete as British as there are no separate 4 nation teams

UK National Tennis Sports Association

International Tennis Players Association

Andy Murrays Official website

Andy Murray Quotes

Source:http://www.biography.com/people/andy-murray-20875203#tennis-career

Scots have a fierce pride in the things we do that others can never appreciate. I am the British No. 1, but I would prefer to be the British No. 1 from Scotland every time.

Following the Guidelines of WP:Due/Undue impartially.

Keep in mind that, in determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources, not its prevalence among Wikipedia editors or the general public.

  • If we deal specifically with the UK Nationals guidelines in relation to the sport sub section are those criteria being met?
  • If we deal specifically with the Due/Undue guidelines in relation to impartiality are those criteria being met?

The last statement is particularly pertinent here no what we think as editors and not what the public think. Questions that need to be asked Does the Majority of reliable sources state British tennis player as opposed to a significant minority of sources stating Scottish tennis player then the viewpoints prevalence should be included.

Source Bias

See also: Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources § Biased or opinionated sources, and Wikipedia:Neutrality of Sources
  • Therefore we should not look to Scottish Newspapers to substantiate reliability the same can be said of pro- English newspapers etc we need to look at news and media coverage externally of the UK how is Andy Murray referred to by reliable international sources.--Navops47 (talk) 07:38, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Post comments below here

  • My inclination is that there's no objectively correct answer - this is what Wikipedia:Nationality of people from the United Kingdom essentially tells us. We will not find the right nationality for Murray. So, we need to find an informative way to describe him for readers, reflecting that he is both regularly described as British and Scottish. I suggest that our guidelines that sports people are, in the first instance, usually described by the nationality that they typically represent or are affiliated with as as a useful one, as it is a guideline that is independent of Murray's Scottishness/Britishness. To that end, I'd suggest "Andy Murray is a British tennis player..." with Scotland mentioned in the opening sentence or start of second sentence as the best reflection of policy and sources. However, given that it has been in place for a while and has had some form of stability, I'd be content seeing the current introduction maintained as a second best option. Super Nintendo Chalmers (talk) 08:23, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
  • OMG this RfC is so long and convoluted that I can barely understand what it's talking about. It will turn off almost anyone who decides to take a look. It needs to be short and sweet and totally rewritten for anyone to care about it. Sorry but I've never seen anything like this before. It needs to have just the choices and sections to discuss. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:42, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Leave no stone un-turned include everything and anyway the previous discussions are just as long if not longer if you want to trim it down fine but just make sure you all keep the main points in.--Navops47 (talk) 08:57, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
  • I agree with Navops47. I found the summary helpful and useful in making an informed decision. I have previously ignored this debate as I find it a tedious one, but I engaged as I felt it to be a useful and well written summary that might put this issue to bed. --Super Nintendo Chalmers (talk) 09:02, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Disregarding the absolute mess of bolding and overwhelming personal observations from above:

"This RfC is to determine the opening lead of Andy Murray."

Shall we keep the longstanding lead as is:

  • 1 - Andy Murray is a Scottish professional tennis player currently ranked world No. 1 in men's singles. Murray represents Great Britain...

or Shall we change the lead to one of the following:

  • 2 - Andy Murray is a British tennis player from Scotland
  • 3 - Andy Murray is a British tennis player born in Scotland
  • 4 - Andy Murray is a Scottish born British tennis player
  • 5 - Andy Murray is a Scottish professional tennis player who represents Great Britain in the ITF and ATP. He is currently ranked world No. 1.

Note that the second sentence of choice 1 (about representation) is a recent addition and not entirely accurate since he doesn't always represent Great Britain. He represented Scotland against England in the Aberdeen Cup. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:20, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

That's true but that is an internal match between internal tennis associations who are under the remit of the British Lawn Tennis Association we are discussing his international representation per the LTA, ITF and ATP on a global stage as he doesn't compete as a Scottish player for Scotland outside of the United Kingdom (not yet anyway lets wait for another referendum) and that event was on two occasions only 11 years ago and has not been staged since.--Navops47 (talk) 09:38, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
Actually we are simply discussing the lead sentence, nothing specific about international representation vs internal representation. That lead encompasses his life and he has represented Scotland vs England... although as you pointed out the event was only around two years and was 11 years ago. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:55, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
The Aberdeen Cup has low merit in determining what side we should go. It was an exhibition with "national teams" which weren't organized by any governing body, unlike the ITF-regulated Davis and Hopman (and unrelated to this person Fed Cup) Cup teams as well as the BOA-regulated olympic team. You simply cannot give his appearance there the exact same weight as his appearances for the officially sanctioned British teams. It is not even comparable to his brother representing Scotland at the Commonwealth Games. "Team England" and "Team Scotland" at the Aberdeen Cup were simply team names. There is no evidence that there ever was any requirement of possessing either nationality to player in either team.Tvx1 13:41, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Discussion

  • Choice 1 - Keep as is - Looking at most other notable Scottish people here on Wikipedia, List of Scots, it appears overwhelming that it should read he is a Scottish tennis player. If he is Scottish at follows that he's British... but if he's British he isn't necessarily Scottish. So it's more concise to simply say Scottish. The fact he represents Great Britain is already plastered all over the biography, so it's not like it's omitted. How it is now was pretty much a compromise that stopped quite a few edit wars in times past (labeled as British in the infobox and Scottish in the lead, and I see no real reason to change it.) We also have entities like the Encyclopedia Brtannica saying he is a Scottish tennis player right in the first sentence. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:29, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Choice 2 - Change to per Andy's own comments British from Scotland every time and keeping in line with the UK Nationals Sports section guidelines for this particular sport and has nothing to do with actors, playwrights, poets, artists, engineers, scientists. I disagree with Fyuncks observations this article from the guardian journalist Madeline Bunting who own ancestry of Irish, Scottish, Jewish and English is worth a read: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/21/british-identity-scotland-independence-english-scottish-no her last points by how she is viewed in Scotland is interesting speaking only for myself who's father is Welsh and mother Irish when I'm working abroad if I say I'm half Welsh my fathers from Wales most people I chat to in the Middle East, South East Asia have never heard of it outside of Western countries if I say I am British because that's what most people internationally know I get an immediate response. The same way an American when travelling outside of the USA would not say I'm Texan first American second or just Texan 99% of the people here in Sri Lanka have never heard of Texas immediately you say America or American instant response and Fyunck your comment if he's British he isn't necessarily Scottish is wrong and misinformed that's the collective legal name for anyone who is from England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales travelling outside of the UK it means both--Navops47 (talk) 10:22, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
We also have non British sources: http://europe.newsweek.com/andy-murray-satisfied-top-ranked-briton-517500?rm=eu and https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2016/11/05/andy-murray-ousts-novak-djokovic-as-no-1-tennis-player-in-the-world/ and https://www.thestar.com/sports/tennis/2016/05/09/british-tennis-star-andy-murray-parts-ways-with-coach-amelie-mauresmo.html and http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/29/sports/tennis/comeback-player-on-the-rise-runs-into-serena-williams-at-wimbledon.html?_r=0 and http://bleacherreport.com/articles/803832-andy-murray-tim-henman-and-the-top-british-players-in-tennis-history.--Navops47 (talk) 11:11, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
  • 1 or 2 are the better options. While I had leaned towards 2, Fynuck makes a good case for 1. Either is acceptable. --Super Nintendo Chalmers (talk) 12:55, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Choice 2 or 3 - Change, with as slight preference for option 2. Contrary tho the claims made in the discussion near the top of this talk page as well as previous ones in the archives, that would actually be in line with WP:UKNATIONALS (which remains an essay, now matter how you turn it), as it states that we should look at self-identification (which indy Andy's case is both. just look at the examples presented in the above section) and to go by national teams for sports people. Hence someone like James McFadden is introduced as Scottish but for someone like Andy, who has competed for British teams 99,99% of his career the proposed alternatives are more appropriate. In addition to the essay, this alternatives would also make the article in line with the more important guidelines and policies like MOS:OPENPARA and WP:DUE. Andy is simply presented in the press in excess of 90% of the times as a British tennis player. Also, Navops47's comments on how one is presented/recognised abroad are spot on. When traveling abroad I don't introduce myself as Flemish (in fact I never do that), but rather introduce myself as Belgian. On a side note, I don't think option 4 is linguistically correct. It now reads as if the subject was born with Scottish citizenship and changed it to British at some point in their life. I think it should rather be "Scotland-born British tennis player".Tvx1 14:04, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
  • I would vote for 1 or 2. Option 5 makes too big a deal of his GB team involvement. In most instances Murray is not representing a country, he is competing as himself. Options 3 and 4 are misleading, as reference to 'born' can be interpreted as meaning 'born, but moved and lived elsewhere since'. Not keen on 'currently' in option 1; it's a time relative word to avoid. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 15:23, 14 December 2016 (UTC)


No opinion, just comment. Just an FYI, none of the comparison persons listed up above are from quality reviewed articles such as a featured article, good article, WikiProject A class rating. As such we have to be careful drawing conclusions about what is the norm/acceptable. See WP:OTHERCONTENT for more info on this.

The Manual of Style on Biographies is a guideline that applies here. See WP:MOSBIO

Birth date and place
...Birth and death places, if known, should be mentioned in the body of the article, and can be in the lead if relevant to the person's notability, but they should not be mentioned in the opening brackets of the lead sentence alongside the birth and death dates
Context
In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if the person is notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable. Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless they are relevant to the subject's notability.

From WP:Biographies of living persons

Editors must take particular care when adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page...

Perhaps a dumb questions, but is Andy Murray currently a citizen of Scotland?Dig Deeper (talk) 22:05, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

He is but he currently resides in London. List of Scots most likely has plenty of examples of quality articles listing a person as Scottish. Bryan Gunn and John Wark are sports oriented featured articles listed as Scottish. Actress Deborah Kerr is listed as Scottish yet lived in England, and Ewan McGregor is also Scottish but lives in Los Angeles. They are Good articles. What would make Andy Murray so different here? Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:30, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
Nope, he isn't. He is a citizen of the United Kingdom. There is no Scottish citizenship (yet) since Scotland isn't an independent state (yet).The difference between Andy and the people Fyunck(click) mentioned is that Andy is an active sportsperson competing almost exclusively for British teams (he has even acted as flagbearer of the British flag) and who is almost always shown as being British in the coverage of the major tournaments in his sports. Actors and actresses don't tend to collect trophies for their countries. Their nationalities are inherently less notable.Tvx1 00:36, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
If it is common knowledge that he is currently a citizen of Scotland, then absolutely no difference.
Choice #1. Because this is the only choice that does not place emphasis on place of birth. The place of birth is of less importance than his current citizenship (see my above quote from WP:MOSBIO. Dig Deeper (talk) 00:27, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
He does not hold Scottish citizenship. That simply doesn't exist. Only British citizenship exists.Tvx1 00:36, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
Legally this is true. But my understanding is that the English cannot vote in Scottish only elections and vice versa. Murray has not renounced his Scottish right to vote in Scotland. And actors may not collect trophies for their country but we aren't talking about that in the lead. We are simply stating the fact that he is a Scottish tennis player. Fyunck(click) (talk) 01:27, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
Being allowed to vote in a subnational election doesn't make one a citizen of that subnational. In my country there's also subnational elections for the Flemish, Walloonian, and Brussels governments. I'm only allowed to vote in the elections of the Flemish Government, yet I'm not by any means a "Flemish citizen".Tvx1 01:53, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
Please check Nationality is the legal relationship between a person and a state. Nationality affords the state jurisdiction over the person and affords the person the protection of the state. What these rights and duties are vary from state to state. Nationality differs technically and legally from citizenship, which is a different legal relationship between a person and a country. Citizenship is the status of a person recognized under the custom or law as being a legal member of a sovereign state if you don't understand the difference of what constitutes a sovereign state please read this and the reference to Scotland in it: http://geography.about.com/cs/politicalgeog/a/statenation.htm. Also you can check if Andy is a British citizen by putting his details into this short test: https://www.gov.uk/check-british-citizen, you can also check this website http://www.gov.scot/ to see if you can find the same test and apply for a Scottish Passport and check if there is such a thing as Scottish Citizenship you will note that it does not exist. Scotland does not provide citizenship in its own right and has not since 1707 when it was the sovereign state of the Kingdom of Scotland, the same applied to citizens of the former Kingdom of England. You will also note in WP:MOSBIO the paragraph after birth date CONTEXT: In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen (meaning citizenship) hence we arrive back at the same conclusion Murrays citizenship is British and to Digdeeper you will note that a separate independent Canadian passport was first issued to Canadian citizens in 1862 try to find an article on a Scottish Passport for Scottish citizens on WP. The guidelines regarding SPORT definition are very clear in relation to individual sports persons.--Navops47 (talk) 03:32, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
Ok, Navops47... you made me re-look at MOSBIO and it absolutely does not say what you quoted it as saying. It says after the birthdate under context: "In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident". That's a HUGE difference from what you said, and frankly is a very misleading omission. Scotland IS a country in the UK. It may not be a Sovereign State but it is a country, and Murray being Scottish fits MOSBIO just as well as Murray being British. I think most notable Scots on wikipedia are listed as Scottish so that's a lot of bios we may need to change. The only real reason given to exclude Murray from the list of those called Scottish is that the ITF, like the Olympics, only has Great Britain compete. Northern Ireland, part of the UK, gets to play under Ireland in the Olympics. I don't think that is a good enough reason to exclude him from all those other notable Scots. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:05, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
I think we're getting confused because 'MOSBIO' doesn't define 'country', a term which can have a casual meaning (as a socio-cultural or administrative territory, a definition which would include eg England, Scotland but also examples from across the world) or a more formal meaning (sovereign state only). My interpretation of MOSBIO would be that 'country' is being used in the more casual way: the evidence from other Scottish people on Wikipedia helps here, but also for people from outisde the UK (Aruban Xander Bogaerts, Hong Kong Michelle Reis, Faroese Aksel V. Johannesen, Micronesian AND Pohnpeian Emelihter Kihleng) would support this assertion. So under the quote from MOSBIO provided by Dig Deeper, I think we can comfortably accept Scottish (though we may still decide in a borderline case that as a Sportman, sporting nationality trumps this). Super Nintendo Chalmers (talk) 08:22, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
Probably true. "Country" seems to have a different meaning in the USA as opposed to the UK. The USA tends to look at the term country as a Sovereign State... the USA is a country, the UK is a country, even Taiwan is a country though not sovereign. Europe calls these entities States and places like Wales and Scotland they call countries. More than a US state but less than a sovereign state. I think it passes MOSBIO, which is seen in good quality articles using the term. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:41, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
Okay lets try another approach lets take Catalonia as an example, similar debates going on around independence from Spain for the last hundred or so years Catalans are equally as passionate as Scots here: http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scotland-and-catalonia-compared-economy-politics-history-1-3904695 and lets discuss the difference in how we are presenting Murrays article Andrew Barron "Andy" Murray, OBE (born 15 May 1987) is a Scottish professional tennis player currently ranked world No. 1 in men's singles that's the first information that comes up on google search now lets look at some Catalan players leads Albert Costa i Casals (Catalan pronunciation: [aɫˈβɛr ˈkɔsta i kaˈzaɫs]; born 25 June 1975) is a former professional tennis player from Spain. Marcel Granollers Pujol (Catalan: [mərˈsɛɫ ɣɾənuˈʎes puˈʒɔɫ], Spanish: [marˈθel ɣɾanoˈʎers puˈʝol]; born 12 April 1986) is a tennis player from Spain who turned professional in 2003. Àlex Corretja i Verdegay (Catalan pronunciation: [ˈaɫəks kuˈrɛdʒə j βərðəˈɣaj]; born 11 April 1974, in Barcelona, Spain) is a former professional tennis player from Spain.Andrés Gimeno Tolaguera (born 3 August 1937 in Barcelona, Spain) is a retired Spanish tennis player. Carles ("Carlos") Costa Masferrer (born 22 April 1968) is a former professional tennis player from Spain. Sergio Casal Martínez (born 8 September 1962) is a former professional tennis player from Spain. Álex López Morón (born 28 November 1970) is a retired professional male tennis player from Spain. Marc López Tarrés (Catalan: [ˈmark ˈɫopes təˈres], Spanish: [ˈmark ˈlopeθ taˈres]; born 31 July 1982) is a professional male tennis player from Spain, there no mention in any of the articles "is a Catalan Player who represents Spain" when you google search any of them the reference to Spain comes up immediately every time as Wikipedia articles on my browser are the first returned results. As I have said this debate I believe we should include British in the first line of the sentence together with Scotland or Scottish in relation to the guidelines on WP/Due/Undue and UK Nationals/Sport which BTW are abundantly clear when making a determination regarding individual UK tennis players I know I am dyslexic or I am I reading something completely different to everyone else, so that we correctly make an impartial assessment and apply appropriate weighting "Keep in mind that, in determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources, not its prevalence among Wikipedia editors or the general public". I also included the section on source bias from both Scottish and to include British press coverage and suggested that if the majority of reliable external international sources are referencing British tennis player over Scottish tennis player then its should be given due weight together with reference to Scotland in the same sentence.--Navops47 (talk) 09:21, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
That's fine and dandy about Catalonia but I think that one big factor has been put to rest.... there is nothing wrong at Wikipedia in referring to a tennis player as Scottish rather than British in the lead. It is not against MOS in any way and is used for many notable people of all walks of life. To say otherwise is really stretching it I think. Now as far as Catalonia, what terms does the press use most often for those players. Andy Murray is referred to in the press much more often as Scottish rather than British, but how much so depends where one is in the UK. I think in England the term British edges out Scottish. Taiwan is not a sovereign state either yet a I believe all those individuals are written as Taiwanese tennis players, not Chinese tennis players from Taiwan. And what about our players from Wales? Those like Gerald Battrick and Mike Davies? And what about other sports like golf? Famous Scottish golfers like Sandy Lyle and Colin Montgomerie? What about Scot Eilidh Doyle whose claim to fame was winning bronze for Great Britain at the 2016 Olympics. Why is it that Andy Murray should be treated so differently because he plays tennis where he must play for Great Britain in International events? I'm from the US so I really don't have a horse in the English/Scottish/Welsh chest beating thing. Although we do have Puerto Rico, a US territory, that has miss Monica Puig listed as Puerto Rican. It just seems perfectly adequate and accurate to use the term Scottish tennis player for Andy Murray. Fyunck(click) (talk) 10:35, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
Heck I say we go with the New York Times and call Andy Murray an English tennis player. That might bring some good old-fashioned edit warring to the article. ;-) Fyunck(click) (talk) 10:45, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
Fyunck(click), if you are going to make some claims, at least do some research beforehand to make sure that they are correct/relevant. Firstly, your claim that northern irish sportspeople simply compete for ireland is wrong. Being British citizens, they can represent the UK (named Great Britain there) just as much at the Olympics. Secondly, one source streaming of the UK is very thin evidence to unilaterally claim that Andy is being "referred to as Scottish most of the time in the press". In fact, I disagree with that claim. Thirdly, Scottish golfers are irrelevant as UK golfers player for their home nations the majority of the time (the Olympics being the sole exception). That's like claiming we should introduce Andy as Scottish because sportspeople like James McFadden, Peter Wright, Alan McManus or Ross Ford are listed as Scottish. Al these professionally represent Scotland and are thus irrelevant. What are you even trying to prove? I have already given examples of British sportspeople (from Scotland as it happens) being referred to as British. You want more? Let's see... Sir Bradley Wiggins (a GA), Chris Froome, Mark Cavendish. Fourthly Monica Puig is listed as Puerto Rican because that is the nationality she represents. She won an Olympic gold medal for Puerto Rico, thus not for the US, and plays for the Puerto Rican Fed Cup team. The exact same principle applies to Taiwan players (who compete under the flag of Chinese Taipei). As results the examples actually support Andy being introduced as British as that is the nationality he professionally represents.Tvx1 12:50, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Support 2 based on my current understanding @Fyunck(click) - this comes up all the time, Gordon Ramsay was a recent one. Ideally Wikipedia goes with how a person self-identifies. The trouble is that "Scottish" versus "British" has taken on a political overtone as a proxy for unionist versus nationalist, so as a casual observer I get the impression that Murray has been reluctant to self-identify partly because it's bad for business, but mostly because he doesn't want to be identified with one side or the other in the independence debate. So we are merely left with the facts, which are that he has a British passport, and that he was born and brought up in Scotland. One can still be British and Scottish, I myself am a classic Anglo-Scots mix who struggles at the Calcutta Cup, but in the current febrile atmosphere it's not easy for celebrities to declare themselves as being both. He's certainly not politicised like say Sean Connery, and the fact that he lives in London with an English wife and grew up in one of the most pro-Union areas of Scotland does nothing to suggest he's an ardent nationalist. Le Deluge (talk) 14:04, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

PS @Fyunck(click) "my understanding is that the English cannot vote in Scottish only elections and vice versa" - just saying that shows a lack of understanding of the issues here. All British citizens living in Scotland vote in all elections - and EU citizens can vote in some. You are getting mixed up with national politicians representing English constituencies not being allowed to vote on certain bits of Scottish legislation which have been devolved to Edinburgh, whereas there's no equivalent body in England so politicians representing Scottish constituencies can vote in the British Parliament on legislation affecting only England - the West Lothian question. Completely different, and irrelevant to Andy Murray.Le Deluge (talk) 14:11, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
Hello everyone happy I hope? I have included below in a new section a reference table at short notice that as best as I could describe when to use the correct description in relation to the UK Nationals/Sport guidelines, and their national sports associations please remember I am not advocating the complete removal of any references to Scotland just that for this sport we should be applying the correct way of presenting tennis players. Please also bear in mind that any sports player competing at the multi-event Commonwealth Games represents one of the 4 nations.--Navops47 (talk) 14:57, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
UK Sport representation table
National Governing Body Represent Sports persons description Competing at or in Internationally
Badminton England One of the Four Nations English Badminton player WC, CG, TC
England Boxing One of the Four Nations English Boxer CG only
England and Wales Cricket Board One of the Four Nations English or Welsh Cricket player WC, 20/20 WC
England Golf One of the Four Nations English Golfer GM, GT
England Rugby Football Union One of the Four Nations English Rugby Union player WC, 7's WC, 4N, 6N
English Football Association One of the Four Nations English Football player WC, EC, NC, FNC
Irish Football Association One of the Four Nations Northern Irish Football player WC, EC, NC, FNC
Cricket Scotland One of the Four Nations Scottish Cricket player WC, 20/20 WC
Scottish Golf One of the Four Nations Scottish Golfer GM, GT
Scottish Football Association One of the Four Nations Scottish Football player WC, EC, NC, FNC
Scotland Rugby League One of the Four Nations Scottish Rugby league player WC
Scottish Rugby Union One of the Four Nations Scottish Rugby Union player WC, 7's WC, 4N, 6N
Scottish Squash & Racquetball One of the Four Nations Scottish Squash player WC, EC, NC, FNC
Football Association of Wales One of the Four Nations Welsh Football player WC, EC, NC, FNC
Golf Union of Wales One of the Four Nations Welsh Golfer GM, GT
Wales Rugby League One of the Four Nations Welsh Rugby League player WC
Welsh Rugby Union One of the Four Nations Welsh Rugby Union player WC, 7's WC, 4N, 6N
British Amateur Gymnastics Association Great Britain British Gymnast OLY, WC, EC
British Cycling Great Britain British Cyclist OLY, WC, WT
British Racing Drivers Club Great Britain British Racing Driver WC's, EC's and NC's in various classes of motor racing
British Lawn Tennis Association Great Britain British Tennis player OLY, GS, DC, ATP
British Swimming Organisation Great Britain British Swimmer OLY, WC, EC
National Ice Skating Association Great Britain British Ice Skater OLY, WC, EC
UK Athletics Great Britain & N. Ireland British Athlete, Sprinter, etc OLY, WC, EC, DL
Exceptions
British Darts Organisation One of the Four Nations Scottish Darts Player WC, WP, WM, WDL, EC, EDL, NC
Professional Darts Corporation One of the Four Nations Scottish Darts Player WC
British Boxing Board of Control All 4 Nations Associations British Boxer All 4 World Championships, EC
WPBSA One of the Four Nations or a crown dependency English/Scottish/Northern Irish/Welsh (others like e.g. Manx snooker player exist as well) WC
Key Key Key Key
OLY= OLYMPICS 7'SWC= SEVENS WORLD CUP GT=GOLF TOUR ATP=ATP TOUR
WC=WORLD CUP/WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP 20/20 WC= TWENTY TWENTY WORLD CUP NA-NORTH AMERICAN TOUR TC=THOMAS CUP
WP=WORLD PROFESSIONAL WT=WORLD TOUR EDL=EUROPEAN DARTS LEAGUE DL=DIAMOND LEAGUE TOUR
WM=WORLD MASTERS EC=EUROPEAN CHAMPIONSHIP NC=NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP 4N FOUR NATIONS CHAMPONSHIP
WDL=WORLD DARTS LEAGUE GM=GOLF MAJORS DC=DAVIS CUP 6N=SIX NATIONS CHAMPIONSHIP
7'SWC= SEVENS WORLD CUP GS=GRAND SLAM CG=COMMONWEALTH GAMES
I've slightly boldly put that table in a collapsible box: it's useful for people to refer to but at the size it was perhaps took-over the page too much. I think that to say that for all sports-people national representation MUST trump any other description of nationality is an exaggeration. However in a case where we could legitimately describe Murray as British or Scottish, it offers one way of making a casting vote. Super Nintendo Chalmers (talk) 15:34, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
A suggestion - WP:OPENPARA states that we should not over-emphasise ethnicity, nationality, etc, unless absolutely necessary. So why not simply something along the lines of: "Andrew Barron "Andy" Murray, OBE (born 15 May 1987) is a professional tennis player currently§ ranked world No. 1 in men's singles. Murray is a three-time Grand Slam tournament winner, two-time Olympic champion, and the winner of the 2016 ATP World Tour Finals. He is the only Scottish male tennis player to reach the number one ranking in singles, and was part of the Great Britain team which won the 2015 Davis Cup.
§I note the concern about the 'currently' that a poster has mentioned. However, tennis number 1 is a sufficiently high profile achievement that we can rely on it to be accurately altered when no longer true. I suggest at that point that the sentence would read "is a professional tennis player and former world No. 1 in men's singles".
Careful with paraphrasing. The actual wording of WP:OPENPARA is that nationality/ethnicity is usually in the body but "...can be in the lead if relevant to the person's notability". So the question becomes, when is nationality/ethnicity relevant to notability? I think the manual of style/guidelines needs to offer more clarity on this. I'm starting a discussion on that talk page about this.
Please note that using the tag "as of" is preferred to using the word "currently". See WP:PRECISELANG for more info on this.Dig Deeper (talk) 18:51, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

I've still seen nothing convincing me that Andy Murray/tennis players should be dropped from using the term Scottish tennis player. I believe the press uses the term abundantly with him, and encyclopedias such as Encyclopedia Britannica, and Compton's, and dictionaries such as Oxford's. Biography.com simply uses the term "Scottish tennis star" in the heading. If consensus decides otherwise that's fine, but it would seem strange per other sources. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:07, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Also, at least while this is under discussion, I don't think it's very helpful to go around changing all the tennis player/sports intros to British. Let's try and keep this on the up-and-up. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:45, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Encyclopedia Britanica is just as user-written as this one. It's therefore not a reliable source and I don't see how it has any value on this discussion. Lots of reliable sources desribing him as British have been provided as well.Tvx1 22:48, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
It is considered a very reliable source and has plenty of value in this discussion, as does the Oxford dictionary. Of course there are sources that call him British since both terms, Scottish tennis player and British tennis player, are true. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:05, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
Encyclopedia Britanica is written by topic experts, supervised by an editorial staff. It is not "just as user-written as this one". --Escape Orbit (Talk) 17:28, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
OK, after a short discussion at the village pump it's now clear I (and I think others here also) are reading MOS:OPENPARA incorrectly. It actually says:
MOS guidelines for lead paragraphs should generally be followed; the opening paragraph should establish notability, neutrally describe the person, and provide context. The opening paragraph should usually have ... 3. Context (location or nationality)... In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident. The way this explanation is set up is a bit confusing and disjointed, especially when most people associate birth place with nationality. I'm sorry if I derailed this discussion. For more of a background about Britain vs Scotland or England that lead up to the essay WP:Nationality of people from the United Kingdom see discussion and discussion.

I made a proposal to reorganize this at the MOS talk page. here and leave your opinion if you wish.Dig Deeper (talk) 19:22, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

  • Choice 2 - most compliant with wikipedia's guidelines and reflects the actual reality. It will annoy the Scottish nationalists, but we can always change it back if they ever decide to leave the union. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:05, 23 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose 3 and 4, on the basis that they are misleading. Both of these proposals make it sound like Murray was born in Scotland, then (later?) became British. This makes him sound like a football player who has emigrated and switched nationalities (e.g. Patrick Vieira), which is clearly not the case. I have no strong opinion between 1 and 2, both seem reasonable. For the sake of consistency, 2 would be better as tennis is a sport where people normally play for Great Britain and there is no other representation (unlike football, rugby, cricket, or even most Olympic sports via the Commonwealth Games). Jmorrison230582 (talk) 12:49, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
  • Query - Dig deeper, for the clarity of the discussion, do you still stick with your preference for choice #1 even thought the claim on which it was based, Andy holding Scottish citizenship, having been explained to be wrong?Tvx1 02:04, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
  • Option 2 and oppose option 1 - I support option 2 because it mentions both that he is British and that he is from Scotland in the same sentence so covers both elements of his nationality. He has said he considers himself both. I also think this is the most accurate description because he plays for Great Britain and is a British tennis player. The table posted above of how to describe different sports people from the UK i think is very reasonable and balanced and in this case it points to option 2 being used. The status quo is problematic and more likely to lead to continued disputes than if the introduction said British tennis player from Scotland. SenMar (talk) 23:32, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

When is this discussion coming to an end? It was started over 2 months ago in mid December. There is clearly support for changing the current wording to option 2. There is very limited support for the current wording, with one of the few supporting only option 1 based on an entirely factually inaccurate claim that there is "Scottish citizenship". Even a couple of the responses that are prepared to support option 1 or option 2, favour option 2 or accept there are problems with option 1 still. So when is someone going to make the change to the article? Thanks. SenMar (talk) 21:39, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

Clear? They go by strength of argument but the tally is #1=5, #2=8, #3=1. I wouldn't call that a clear case for change. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:03, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
  • I support Option 2, too. He is presented as a British tennis player by both ITF and ATP, and that's what he's primarily known for. Furthermore, I agree there is consensus for option 2, too, and it is time to reflect that in the article.—J. M. (talk) 23:34, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

A request for closure has been posted a while ago. I guess this discussion will closed sooner rather than later.Tvx1 02:43, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Murray's Earnings

He is British. Why are his earnings listed in US$?

Darcourse (talk) 07:04, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

The Association of Tennis Professionals uses US$ as its currency for prizes.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 07:23, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

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References need tidying up

I tries to make a start on tidying up the references, but it seems to require some justifcation.

1. They are inconsistent eg some call the Guardian a publisher, work, website or newspaper. I think they're a newspaper. 2. People are misusing accessdate, which should only be used when the reference is likely to change, such as World ranking. For static references, the date of publication is sufficient. 3. This article is so long, that unessential information can be discarded such as location=London 4. The order of the elements of the references are inconsistent. I think they should be the same as the final result :- Title, Newspaper, date. 5. If my edit resulted in a cite error, then fix the cite error, rather than undoing all my work.

You may disagree with my choices (this is hardly National Identity), but I'm just trying to make the references consistent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chelisuk (talk • contribs) 16:58, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Hello and thank you for your comments. I have made a start today on tidying up the references for the first part of the article up until the end of the 2012 season and can continue tidying up the references for the rest of the article at a later date soon.
To address your points:
1) I have, for the first part of the article, now ensured all the newspapers such as The Guardian, The Sunday Times and The Daily Telegraph are shown as "newspaper" for consistency.
2) The accessdate can be useful, I feel, for future editors in future years to see when the reference was placed into the article and if there is subsequently a dead link then it will be known to people when the reference was working and valid. I wouldn't be in favour of removing valid accessdates unless there was a clear consensus among other editors that they should be removed.
3) It is true that the Andy Murray article is rather long at 248,000 bytes, although some Wikipedia articles for a few of the other current top sports stars in the world are actually longer, such as for example Cristiano Ronaldo at 284,000 bytes and Lionel Messi at 263,000 bytes. The changes I made to the references today have trimmed about 300 bytes in length, but I believe the best way for an article to not get too long is to trim some of the non-essential content from the article itself rather than trimming either the author's name from a web page or the city of publication for a newspaper. The reason why the city of publication for a newspaper is recommended is that there can be more than one "Guardian" or "Telegraph" in the world and although for UK readers it is likely they would assume that The Daily Telegraph is a British newspaper, in Australia for example, there is a completely different "Telegraph" (see the article: The Daily Telegraph (Australia)). As Wikipedia is obviously read throughout the world the reference shows to worldwide readers where the newspaper was published from.
The Wikipedia guidelines at WP:CITE state (under the section: "What information to include") the recommended information to include in order to identify the source and assist readers in finding it.
Citations for newspaper articles typically include:
a) byline (author's name), if any
b) title of the article within quotation marks
c) translated title of the article in square brackets after the title if not in English
d) name of the newspaper in italics
e) city of publication (if not included in name of newspaper), in parentheses
f) date of publication
g) page number(s) are optional
I don't provide page numbers, because that it optional. The other information should be included as per the guidelines.
4) I will, at a later date soon, try to ensure the order of the elements of the references are consistent: Title, Newspaper, date. I haven't done that so far today.
I hope this has addressed your concerns. Consistency is a good thing which I approve of. However, for the reasons given above, I don't believe that either accessdates, author's name for a web page or the city of publication for a newspaper should be removed. Regards, Kind Tennis Fan (talk) 03:04, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
For a live link, why is it interesting when a link was added? If a link becomes dead, then what usually happens? Doesn't the whole ref have to be deleted, in which case what purpose does the Accessdate serve? If you need to search for a replacement link, then the actual date is where you would start, not the Accessdate. Chelisuk (talk —Preceding undated comment added 18:27, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Inclusion of Daughter's Name

Perhaps I'm failing to understand why there is an issue with the inclusion of his daughter's name in this article? What is the difference between not including Sophia's name, despite being the daughter of the subject of the article, but including the names of both sets of Federer twins or Stefan Djokovic? If we are going to use BLPNAME in this case, then we need to be consistent and use it with other tennis players as well.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Piratesswoop (talk • contribs) 16:54, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not Hello! (magazine). Per WP:BLPNAME, it is cautious about naming family members unless there is a real need to do so.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 16:56, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
Wikipedia usually errs on the side of caution when it comes to identifying minors. If there is no obvious need to name the child, whose only notability is having a famous father, then why do it? This may change if the child becomes a person of interest and importance in their own right, but right now I don't see how identifying a one year old child is of importance to understanding Andy Murray. I'm not sure what the situation with Federer and Djokovic is, but consistency need not apply. There is nothing to say that all children who happen to have tennis players as fathers must be treated the same. Different people, different situations. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 16:30, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

Honours

I'm not sure it's correct to list him as Sir Andy Murray OBE. I think his KBE in 2017 replaced the earlier OBE. 15:16, 26 June 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Buzwad (talk • contribs)

June 2017

Re this edit: it was reverted mainly because it failed to assume good faith. I am not "holding a grudge", and agreed with Escape Orbit (talk · contribs) on this edit, who said that it was introducing an element of personal analysis and commentary. "2017" is a simpler and more neutral header. Lewis Hamilton hasn't been having the best of luck in 2017 either, but it is up to reliable sources to say this.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 05:05, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Agreed. Headings should be factual. Whether Murray is having a good year or not, the reason for it is a matter of opinion. He could be struggling with form, he could just be unlucky, he could actually be playing to form and has always performed this way. It's not up to Wikipedia (or its editors) to make that call. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 12:21, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Ear bitten off in "argument over whether Murray is Scottish or British"

Despite many arguments over this on Wikipedia, nobody has had their ear bitten off, which is in the news here and here (graphic images). With Wimbledon just around the corner, the annual round of edits over Murray's Scottishness or Britishness is about to recommence, but hopefully without violent consequences similar to this.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 05:43, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

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I want to add some external links and make the section as:

Wikimedia Commons has media related to Andy Murray.

Profiles

Social media

Are they OK? LoveVanPersie (talk) 18:35, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

I would say no. I don't really understand what the players tribune is. Sort of a players blog run by Derek Jeter? The Jr profile is now trivial and can be accessed from the ITF profile page. We do not include the social media unless one of them is the main official website. Plus the main official website has links right up top to all the social media sites. So I think it's fine just the way it is. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:16, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

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2013: Wimbledon Champion and surgery (grammar issue)

"neither Federer or Rafael Nadal" should become "neither Federer nor Rafael Nadal" in accordance with the grammar rules of the English language:

"After losing the first set, and facing match point in the decider at 5–6, Murray eventually took the match in a third-set tiebreaker to win his second Miami Masters title, and leapfrog Roger Federer into second place in the rankings, ending a near-decade long time period in which neither Federer or Rafael Nadal were ranked in the top two".

 Done Thanks, Gap9551 (talk) 13:45, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

1936 is better

This is a remarkably insignificant statement;

Murray is also the first British man to win more than one Wimbledon singles title since Fred Perry in 1935.[10]

compared to

Murray is also the first British man to win a Wimbledon singles title since Fred Perry in 1936.

It was changed (in stages) a bit after his 2016 win. I was going to change it back; but after seeing c20k words on Scottish v British, I’ll leave it to someone “bolder”.

PS: I prefer it if the mention of Virginia Wade stayed in too (as per 2016 versions).

MBG02 (talk) 18:35, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Misleading editorial note on Murray's 'nationality'

The top of the article page had an editorial note saying 'THIS IS THE CONSENSUS REACHED ON THE TALK PAGE, DO NOT CHANGE IT WITHOUT DISCUSSION'. I have no inclination to change the description of his nationality nor do I think thereshould be edit wars about this, but the line 'THIS IS THE CONSENSUS REACHED ON THE TALK PAGE' is not accurate. Anyone reading the archives can see there is clearly NO consensus about how to describe Andy Murray in this line. 'Scottish' was the dominant description in the page just a few years ago. Not to sound cynical, but the use of 'British' rather than Scottish doesn't reflect any consensus or WP:CONSENSUS or any other Wikipedia norms, but if anything just the fact have been more British nationalists than Scottish nationalists over the past couple of years willing to post the same repetitive arguments and get in edit wars. Therefore, I have removed the offending claim. We all like to see our preferred version, but WP:BRD is a part of Wikipedia, even if this kind of page makes it quite tedious at times. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 15:25, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

Consensus changes. The last discussion reached the present consensus. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 15:30, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
Consensus on the effects of tobacco changed, for instance, so yes. All I see in the archives is clear proof that the community are divided on this. Consensus does not mean 'given up on edit warring'. And the only reason it's not still subject to constant edit-warring is because IPs have been excluded from WP:BRD, something which while necessary in a page like this is against the spirit of Wikipedia's founding principles.Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 15:33, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
Also it does represent the Wikipedia norms. The wikipedia norm is to mention the nationality in line with the nationality he represents at the international sporting level, which for tennis is Britain. If he was a professional golf player the first mention of nationality would be Scottish. See WP:UKNATIONALS, Sport section. i.e. "For sportspeople, their nationality is usually described by the national team that they qualify to represent or, in individual sports, the national sports association or federation with which they are registered.Jopal22 (talk) 15:37, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
To say that something can be legitimized by cherry-picked norms is different to saying that a process was the outcome of the application of any such norms. The dispute itself is not about the application of any clear set of Wikipedia norms, it is clearly grounded in deeper divisions in our society about whether or not Scottish people should be described firstly as British or Scottish. Make sense? One of the move requests I closed as an admin back in my active days that I'm most proud of is Talk:North_American_beaver, which for ages was subject to a dispute about whether it was American or Canadian. There was a lot of cherry-picking norms, but ultimately anyone could see it was a nationality dispute that was fuelling the grievance and dividing people, and the dispute was solved not by having 'American beaver' or 'Canadian beaver' but by using a name that removed the underlying grievance. That produced real consensus, but if something like that isn't available then it is just one side defeating the other and the other resentfully taking it or biding their time. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 15:49, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
Yeah, I had no involvement in the consensus discussion, and don't have an opinion on that. I wouldn't say finding the wikipedia guide on the exact issue you are bringing up is "cherry picking"!. If you want him to be described as Scottish first in wikipedia then write to the LTA to petition that tennis nationality should be English/Scottish/Welsh/N.Irish rather than British. Jopal22 (talk) 16:10, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
I have not indicated a preference here. The situation you describe is a figment of your imagination, Jopal. There is nothing to stop you looking at the archive to see that. As a general point, you are talking like Wikipedia editors are a bunch of robots acting out mechanical rules. The rule you are alleging to be a governing force, so much so that, on the basis of your belief that I am unhappy with him being called British, you are recommending that it would be easier to petition LTA than edit that guideline page! The 'guide' description you are talking about is what the editors of WP:UKNATIONALS believe[d] to be normal practice. If you can bring yourself to read the rest of that page you will see it says in bold 'Do not enforce uniformity'. Anyway, let's stick with the argument and focus on 'consensus' if you wish to persuade me (or indeed others) my original post was wrong in some way. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:23, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
The original notice was 100% correct. This is the official consensus reached on the talk page, using the official Wikipedia Requests for comment mechanism. See Request for Comment British tennis player or Scottish tennis player. This means that any changes to this sentence should be thoroughly discussed first. It does not mean that the consensus cannot change in the future, but it definitely means that it should not happen without discussion and without reaching new consensus first.—J. M. (talk) 16:29, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
You mean that this is 'official community consensus' because a non-admin closed a RfC 2 years ago with the statement 'Rough consensus is for option 2 ("Andy Murray is a British tennis player from Scotland'), even though the RfC itself is divided? Wikipedia doesn't have 'official community consensus', and consensus doesn't happen because someone declares it. As a factual statement the editorial note is still wrong. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:35, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
No, you're wrong. Requests for comment closed by a non-administrator are a common practice on Wikipedia. Occasionally a formal Request for closure is required. These closures by uninvolved people are generally respected and treated as the formal community consensus. Moreover rough consensus is actually the desired standard. Consensus is not unanimity.Tvx1 20:41, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
RfCs are opened and closed by all sorts of people, but they don't need to produce consensus to be closed. The closer does not accurately summarise the discussion. Furthermore, the discussion itself was a choice between three options that were suggested by the opener, the limitation of which was itself opposed in the discussion. There was no indication that the RfC was even strictly about Scottish v. British, which is the subject of the note that should be removed, nor was there any indication anywhere in the discussion that the RfC would be used as a pretext for blocking off off future discussion or placing misleading editorial notes in the article text. The RfC is just one of many discussions that have included been about Murray's nationality, and a divided debate does not become 'consensus' for two years just because a random 'uninvolved' user has placed some markup around it. 'Consensus' does not mean unanimity, thanks for pointing that out, but it doesn't mean division either. It is actually an English word the meaning of which among reasonable people does not stretch to included deep-seated long-term points of dispute like this. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 22:54, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

More on Scottish versus British

To the IP editor I just reverted - 'British' feels strange a bit strange to me too, but WP:UKNATIONALS discusses things to consider when deciding between Scottish/English etc and British. He competes internationally as part of the British team, which is one thing, but for me self-identification is also crucial. On his personal website, he is described as "the first British male in 77 years to win the highly coveted Wimbledon Championships", and also "Great Britain’s most successful tennis player of the Open era", "the first Briton to reach 500 ATP match wins" and "the first ever British world number one in the open era". The word 'Scottish' doesn't appear. If that's the word used on his own personal website, it's the word we should use in our lead. Best GirthSummit (blether) 13:17, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Andy Murray refers to himself as a 'Briton' which is a resident of the British Isles. He also lists his Birthplace as and hometown as in Scotland, which would seem to make him quite definitely Scottish. Refusing to call in a Scot is purely political.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.53.62.214 (talk • contribs) 21:02, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

No politics don’t have anything to do with it. His scotishness is sufficiently acknowledged in the article.Tvx1 11:39, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
Besides, the article clearly says he was born in Scotland. The article does not hide it, it is a well-known fact, not a new discovery. His birthplace does not change the fact that he's a British player. And of course WP:UKNATIONALS clearly says that for sportspeople, the nationality is described by the nation they represent. It lists some complications and exceptions, but there is no ambiguity in Murray's case at all. The rule is absolutely clear here. He's decidedly a British player.—J. M. (talk) 16:55, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
Furthermore, I think this article needs to increase the protection level. The persistent sock puppetry and vandalism, especially by the 2a02:c7d.**** IP hopper, which has been going on for years, changing the "British" to "Scottish", while leaving (and ignoring) the warning that this cannot be changed without achieving consensus on the talk page, is getting unbearable. The current protection level is clearly insufficient.—J. M. (talk) 17:31, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
It's the most wonderful time of the year.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 18:16, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
It definitely is. But this is a chronic problem that has been going on for years, and the IP hopper has been vandalising the article all year round. It will definitely not go away after Wimbledon.—J. M. (talk) 18:24, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
Are you suggesting we request permanent semi-protection.Tvx1 19:07, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
I have already requested it. Even though I know that these requests, regardless of their merit, often fall on deaf ears.—J. M. (talk) 19:29, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 July 2021

Change “ During that year, Murray made three major finals, winning Wimbledon for the second time. Moreover, he defended his men's singles gold medal at the 2016 Rio Olympics to become the only player with two Olympic gold medals in singles.”

To

“ During that year, Murray made three major finals, winning Wimbledon for the second time. Moreover, he defended his men's singles gold medal at the 2016 Rio Olympics to become the only player with two Olympic gold medals in the Men’s singles. 79.97.248.41 (talk) 22:26, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: I would say this is fine as is unless there's a need to distinguish if someone holds two Olympic gold medals in the Women's singles. — IVORK Talk 01:25, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
[edit conflict] Done, partially. Although not a big deal, there could be a confusion over whether this has been achieved in other aspects of Olympic tennis (it has), so should ideally be clarified, but the suggested wording repeats the description twice and looks a bit clunky, so I amended the first mention to simply "title" as this could not be referring to anything else but the Olympic gold in the context, and it is then clarified below along with the discipline distinction. Crowsus (talk) 10:08, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 July 2021

Change residence from Oxshott, Surrey, England to Leatherhead, Surrey, England. 86.15.113.137 (talk) 22:46, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:04, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

nationality

Murray has stated in multiple interviews he is both Scottish and British. He has also represented Scotland and Great Britain in tennis. Therefore I have edited the page to reflect this. [1] Not sure if I have correctly started an WP:RfC. Please correct heading if it is not correct. Thanks. TG11TG15 (talk) 17:58, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

I encourage you to look through the copious discussions on this in the archives of this page (you can search them at the top of this page). That might save a lot of time and effort going through old points that have been already done to death. Thanks. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 13:11, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
The "tournament" you are so desperately clinging to justify including Scottish as a sporting nationality, is nothing but a meaningless exhibition event. These teams are no official teams formed and sanctioned by a "national" governing body whatsoever.Tvx1 18:08, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ https://www.scotsman.com/sport/other-sport/andy-murray-and-jamie-murray-to-lead-scotland-against-england-in-aberdeen-showdown-3147655

"trainers^[clarification needed]" on the article

It's British for "tennis shoes"... AnonMoos (talk) 16:39, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Murray is not an "all court player"

If he is one then so is every other top professional tennis player. He is a defensive counterpuncher who uses his opponent's pace to finish points not unlike David Ferrer or Lleyton Hewitt. 2403:4800:2473:1301:78FB:6D5A:E6BC:D6F9 (talk) 08:53, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

He reached grand slam finals on all courts. Ferrer and Hewitt didn’t.Tvx1 10:20, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

GA Reassessment

Andy Murray

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • Most recent review
Result: Delisted per the above issues and significant uncited material. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 10:52, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Fails 1a (concision) and 3b (unnecessary detail). This article has ballooned up to 19,000 words. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 07:05, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
  • It's why it's tough to get bios in the good article category. If they are well known and have lots of info, it tends to not make the cut because of too much stuff. If it gets heavily trimmed to make the cut, most readers and editors want much more to make it complete. It's hard to sell either way. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:58, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Hi there. I just put a wikilink for tennis player Grigor Dimitrov in 2023 season and you remove it. You say that he is already linked. Where? We talk about the whole Wikipedia article? Their last match before September 2023 was in 2016! The link is tοο much above! There should be a link for the conveninve of the reader! Other tennis players are linked more than once in the whole article. @Tollens @Johnson524

Nikos218 (talk) 18:53, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Hello @Nikos218: there is a wikilink to the Grigor Dimitrov page already in the Wimbledon champion and back surgery section, so I reverted your edit, as Wikipedia typically only likes one wikilink per page. FWIW, most Page Reviewers like myself don't spend more than a few minutes on each review- as they are typically pretty straight forward. If you can explain why having a wikilink to his page in this section would be beneficial, then I would be open to keeping it there, but you would also have to convince Tollens. Thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia, cheers! Johnson524 19:14, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
Apologies, I didn't realize how incredibly long this article was. Considering the length of the article and the fact that readers are likely not going to read the timeline from top to bottom but rather skip to a specific section, I've restored the link. Tollens (talk) 21:39, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Nationality is wrong. Born in Scotland = Scottish.

Nationality is wrong. Born in Scotland = Scottish. 124.254.108.198 (talk) 11:25, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

This has been discussed more than a few times (practically ad infinitum, in fact). I'm sure that Murray's passport says that he is British, because Scottish is not an official nationality. He has also played for the GB Davis Cup team, which is one of the main reasons why he is described this way in the lead section. It's never quite that simple, because WP:UKNATIONALS applies.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 14:20, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for that clarification. I've changed Sue Barker's page to reflect this ruling. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.249.184.221 (talk) 22:07, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

Murray has stated in multiple interviews he is both Scottish and British. He has also represented Scotland and Great Britain in tennis. Therefore I have edited the page to reflect this. [1] TG11TG15 (talk) 17:58, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Please review the talk page archives and start a WP:RfC to gain consensus for your change, as the previous discussions differ from your preferred version.-- Jezebel's Ponyobons mots 18:05, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
I've looked into this particular case before. His own profile on his own website (courtesy link) describes him as British (using the words 'British', 'Britain' and 'Briton' multiple times). WP:UKNATIONALS places a great deal of weight on such self-identifications; I'm sure there are plenty of examples of him describing himself as either/both in interviews, but his own personal profile seems to me to be the most prominent statement of such an identification. For sportspeople, we also place a lot of weight in which national team they play for. I'm a Scot myself, who describes himself as such despite now living in England, but if we are to follow our own guidelines, we ought to be describing Andy as British (without obviously trying to obfuscate the fact that he was born and raised in Scotland). Girth Summit (blether) 18:45, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
Current consensus is that since Murray's notability is primarily as a British tennis player, and has represented the Great Britain Davis Cup team, the lead and info box should say British. Had he voiced any opinion about wishing to be identified as purely Scottish, it would be a different matter. But he's done precisely the opposite, as indeed the article discusses.
What the article says currently is as established after much discussion. Anyone wanting to change that would really have to bring something new to the table. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 13:06, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
--Escape Orbit (Talk) 13:06, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ https://www.scotsman.com/sport/other-sport/andy-murray-and-jamie-murray-to-lead-scotland-against-england-in-aberdeen-showdown-3147655
Why not instead put "British tennis player from Scotland"? This does not negate that Murray is British and represents Britain when he plays Davis Cup, but it makes sure that both of his national identities are covered. One of the issues is that for many people around the world Britain and England are synonymous, so if both aspects of his nationality are not specified then there may be an incorrect assumption that he is English. 94.174.171.168 (talk) 14:54, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
He represents Britain whenever he plays tennis. Great Britain is his registered nationality with the International Tennis Federation, and can't play without that endorsement. Usually if we say anything in the lead about what nation a player is from, it would be their nation... that would be the UK, USA, India, etc.... We don't usually say California, Caledonia, Wales, etc. Ignorance of folks on the term British is not sufficient when the book definition is "relating to Great Britain or the United Kingdom", or "belonging to or relating to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland or its people: 'He has a British passport'." Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:21, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
California is not a country; Scotland is - the UK is a union of four nations. The page for former athlete Colin Jackson describes him as "Welsh", despite primarily competing for Britain. I'm not proposing removing "British" - no information would be lost, confused or compromised by simply revising to the previous description of "British tennis player from Scotland". What is the rationale for removing Scotland? As a poster above states "Murray has stated in multiple interviews he is both Scottish and British. He has also represented Scotland and Great Britain in tennis." 94.174.171.168 (talk) 10:39, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
Yeah the Brits do use the word “nation” because they like to be confusing. It doesn’t mean Scotland is a sovereign state with a legal Scottish nationality appearing in relevant legal documents.Tvx1 16:14, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
We've been through this a hundred times before (see the talk page archive). He's described as British because that is the country he represents in competition of the sport that makes him notable. The only reason to change that is if he has personally and expressly stated a preference otherwise. Nationhood, legal documents, passports, sovereignty etc are topics wheeled out regularly in this debate, and are all irrelevant to this Wikipedia article. Other compromises have been discussed, but they always end up being disputed, reading horribly, and have the suggestion of undue pushing about what Murray should be.--Escape Orbit (Talk) 16:30, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Passport is a travel document, does not define a nationality. He is Scottish. It is that simple. I am sure that he himself identifies as Scottish. Hope this helps. 24.47.21.201 (talk) 18:41, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Clearly you don’t understand what passports are. They are not only travel documents, they are primarily proof of identity. Just like identity cards or driver’s licenses they prove that a person is a citizen and thus legal national of a certain sovereign state. So, yes they do very much define nationality. Murray has a passport of the United Kingdom which has a nationality field that states “British”. And that’s the nationality he uses in his notable activity:playing professional tennis. And while he has identified as British occasionally, he has more frequently and notably identified as British. Like when he sang along to God Save the Queen after winning something with a British team on multiple occasions.Tvx1 23:28, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
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