Talk:Ancient higher-learning institutions

Article name

Hi. Do you think one of these article titles instead:

• Ancient institutions of higher learning
• Ancient centres of higher learning

I have a soft spot for the second option, since it is more encompassing. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 17:03, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Do you know the structure or form of the ancient universities? Saying modern universities originated in western medieval universities and as such need to be distinguished is foolish if you do not know details about ancient universities elsewhere. For example, completing the university in Bengal made one a Pondit/pundit which means master. So this seems to indicate that the term was translated in Europe. There are other examples too. How much was adopted into European medieval universities? So, may be, modern universities HAS roots in the ancient universities all over the world.

Consider this: European medieval universities have their roots in ancient universities around the globe. So the distinction made at the beginning of the article is western arrogance and should be deleted. (NOVO) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.234.71.181 (talk) 08:53, 25 February 2011‎

Definition

What is the definition of "ancient" in this article in terms of dates? After what year do we no longer consider a university to be "ancient"?VR _talk 14:40, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

As I understand the scope and origins of this article, it was meant to deal with those higher educational institutions that arose before the rise of universities around the twelfth century, and more generally with the continuation of such institutions, whether or not they later became universities. As such, the scope extends, at least, into the early middle ages. --SteveMcCluskey (talk) 20:03, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Universities first arose at different times according to different scholars. (See discussion here for example).

Frankly, it doesn't matter what definition we use as long as we're consistent in our terminology. If we want to include medieval universities, we should call the article "pre-modern(/renaissance) institutions of higher-learning" or "institutions of higher learning before 1000 AD".VR _talk 00:36, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Medieval universities are already in a separate article covered, so no need to replicate its contents here. This article deals with higher-learning institutions in ancient civilizations, unless they are covered in separate articles like the Christian university or the Muslim madrasah. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 01:50, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi GPM. I don't quite agree with your last sentence. I think this article should deal with all non-university institutions of higher learning, including cathedral and monastic schools (which it does) and madrasahs (which it does not yet). They may be discussed in greater detail elsewhere, but they should be discussed briefly here. I see the break-point for this article as the emergence of Western (or Christian) universities.--SteveMcCluskey (talk) 20:35, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi Steve. Until these edits, the article had a separate section for madrasahs which could be expanded to discuss madrasahs briefly. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 13:17, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Guys, Antiquity refers to the period before the middle ages, or before fall of (western) Rome. That doesn't include Madrasahs and Universities. If we rename the article premodern higher-learning institutions, that would work. Ian.thomson (talk) 20:38, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

SteveMcCluskey's proposal creates more issues. Universities are "institutions of higher-learning". Is this article meant to include universities as well? If not then it should be called "Premodern non-university higher-learning institutions", which is awkward. I would tend to agree with GunPowderMa that this should be on ancient institutions, and we can have separate articles on European universities and Madrasas.VR _talk 05:17, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Rename?

Ian's point above is well taken; the term ancient is really inappropriate for the subject of this article. Drawing on Gun Powder Ma's discussion above, may I suggest the alternate titles:

• Premodern higher-learning institutions
• Premodern institutions of higher learning
• Premodern centres of higher learning

I think GPM's preference for centres (or centers) rather than institutions of higher learning is a good one, as it allows the inclusion of early higher-learning centers that were not formally organized. My one qualifier is that I would read premodern as ending with the early modern period (which begins around 1500). Further discussion? --SteveMcCluskey (talk) 19:45, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

I would also prefer "centres" over "institutions" for the reason given by you. As for "ancient", in the context of Chinese history at least, Ancient China can refer to its history up to 1911 (when the republic was created). This suggests that "ancient" can have a very flexible meaning. The problem with the "premodern" centres of higher learning -"modern" university dichotomy is that, outside the West, universities were adopted as late as the 19th century, not before. So, only if we are prepared to refer to mid-19th century Chinese bureaucratic schools or Muslim madrasahs of the time still as premodern, we could think of renaming the article. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 13:17, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Unreliable source?

The article cites a web page by Prof. Jerome Bump of the University of Texas as a source on the early history of the universities. Prof. Bump is the author of a biography of Gerard Manley Hopkins and of many articles on Hopkins and other aspects of Victorian literature. He is not, however, an expert on the history of education or on ancient or medieval history. I propose removing the citation and -- lacking the development of more reliable sources -- the arguments which it supports. --SteveMcCluskey (talk) 21:02, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Are you talking about this? In this case I would agree with you, because this is a self-published and poorly formatted (that clearly hasn't been reviewed) entry where stricter rules apply.

If professor Bump had published this in a journal or an academic press, then it would reliable because his field of expertise is close enough.VR _talk 05:27, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

I too find cites to be a garbled potpourri of unreferenced contents. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 13:20, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

OK, I've removed the ref to Bump's web page and added a ref to the nature of the university. The 849 reorganization still lacks a source, but I've let it stand for now.--SteveMcCluskey (talk) 16:54, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Naming of the sections

The "western world" includes current day Turkey and Libya, because they were once Roman and Greek centers of civilization. The word "south asia" is a misnomer because the centers of learning in current day Pakistan and Bangladesh, were once essentially part and parcel of ancient India - being centers of Hinduism and Buddhism. This is why the term "India" is more appropriate to denote this. Otherwise, the term "western world" should be equivalently renamed as "Europe and Near East".— Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.19.40.92 (talk • contribs)

I'm wary about changing it to "India" that could fuel the flames of nationalism in the hearts of some editors from those countries. I will grant that the other section names could stand to be changed. Ian.thomson (talk) 15:50, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Revision of Lede

At present, the article opens with the following introduction:

Ancient higher-learning institutions which give learning an institutional framework date back to ancient times and can be found in many cultures. These ancient centres were typically institutions of philosophical education and religious instruction. They are to be distinguished from the modern Western-style university which is an organizational form originating in medieval Europe and adopted in other world regions since the onset of modern times (see list of oldest universities in continuous operation).

This article, and the related ones concerning universities, have been the source of recurring disputes -- primarily about the exclusion of non western institutions that do not meet the accepted definition of a university as a self-governing corporate body. I suggest rewriting the lede as follows to stress the different kinds of entities controlling other higher-learning institutions:

A variety of ancient higher-learning institutions were developed in many cultures to provide an institutional framework for scholarly activities. These ancient centres were sponsored and overseen by courts; by religious institutions, which sponsored cathedral schools, monastic schools, and madrasas; by scientific institutions, such as museums, hospitals, and observatories; and by individual scholars. They are to be distinguished from the Western-style university which is an autonomous organization of scholars that originated in medieval Europe and was adopted in other world regions since the onset of modern times (see list of oldest universities in continuous operation).

This section probably still needs some citations, but does it seem to go in the right direction? SteveMcCluskey (talk) 19:36, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Scope of the article

The scope of the entry is not clearly defined. Other than the issue of what "ancient" means, more important would be clarification of what "higher-learning" means and why universities are excluded from that scope. "Higher learning" is clearly not characterized in this article by the curriculum, insofar as the curriculum is vastly different from institution to institution. So what determines the scope? Is it the social role of the institution? The relationship of the institution to other organs of learning that are not higher? Some other criterion? Until the principle underlying the scope is clarified, it is difficult to assess how the article ought to be expanded, given that much of it is little more than a name list with the related locations and eras. Robert Falkowitz (talk) 16:33, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

See the discussion above under Definition for insights into the origins of this article. It was intended to complement articles on Universities, especially the articles List of oldest universities in continuous operation and Medieval university. --SteveMcCluskey (talk) 02:16, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

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Content

Your article has great information, but is rather confusing when looking at the content links. For example, Hellenism is a content link, but it not defined or described. Maybe re naming the the reader is one hundred percent sure they will be getting the information they are looking for when they click the link? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cbuck1103 (talk • contribs) 19:47, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Note to other readers: this comment seems to arise from a class assignment at Arizona State University: see User:Cbuck1103 and User talk:Cbuck1103/sandbox for details. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 20:07, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Cbuck1103 (talk) 02:20, 14 November 2017 (UTC)cbuck1103

South Asia and East Asia should be merged

The region around that time was about religion/ideology rather than race. You find Middle Eastern institutions in India, Indian institutions in the Middle East and East Asia, etc... and therefore it's stupid to segregate in this manner.Sweatisoftheessence (talk) 00:08, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

Rafael's School of Athens?

Mosaic of Plato's Academy from Pompeii (1st c. BC)

Rafael's School of Athens has been used to illustrate this article since the earliest edit, with a caption describing it as a depiction of an ancient institution of higher learning, specifically Plato's Academy. The conventional interpretation of the fresco, however is that the picture is intended as a portrayal of ancient philosophy, in the context of other frescoes by Raphael depicting different aspects of Renaissance learning. Identifying it with Plato's Academy is problematic for several reasons. First, its two central figures are Plato and Aristotle, the chief figures of the two main competing traditions of Greek Philosophy. Secondly, going by the accepted identification of the persons in the painting, the presence of Ptolemy (ca. AD 100-ca AD 170), Boethius (ca. AD 477-AD 524) and Averroes (1126 - 1198) are chronologically, geographically, and philosophically impossible, since the original Academy ceased to exist as an institution around 86 BC and was briefly replaced by a Neoplatonic academy in the fifth and sixth centuries AD.

We can either revise the caption to indicate the image is a depiction of Ancient philosophy (which is a bit off target for this article) or replace this figure with a less elegant but historically more accurate contemporary depiction of Plato's academy. I prefer the latter. --SteveMcCluskey (talk) 19:19, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

I made the suggested change.--SteveMcCluskey (talk) 20:11, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Islam???!

Considering the importance of the Islamic centers in transmitting Ancient Greek philosophy and texts to Renaissance / modern Europe, wouldn’t it be Quite A Good Idea to have a section dealing with places like Kairouan? and the madrassahs of Ifrikiya generally? – SquisherDa (talk) 19:14, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

Oldest Hindu university in Gandhara?

See Kashmir Smast. The claim seems to be based on this[1] although there's no evidence whoever added it has read it. Doug Weller talk 15:05, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Or maybe they wrote it - it looks as though Professor M. Nasim Khan (talk · contribs) has been adding his research to a number of articles. Doug Weller talk 15:13, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Bangor Illtyd (St. Illtyd's college, in Llantwit Major, Wales)

I'm surprised to see no mention of this school. It's wikipedia page gives a date of 508 CE for its founding. It would probably be best classified as a monastic college. Msalt (talk) 17:30, 21 September 2021 (UTC)