Talk:Amir Kror Suri

sources and accuracy

This article neither presents any reliable sources not does it prove to be factual accurate. Tajik (talk) 19:10, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

A very famous Afghan historian, Abdul Hai Habibi has confirmed his existance. If you have any doubts, than you are very welcome to vist the 7th century and prove it for yourself. (Ketabtoon (talk) 23:59, 11 August 2009 (UTC))

Abdul Hai Habibi is not famous but very controversial. And I doubt that he - who is not regarded as 1st-class historian by his collegues - has visited the 7th century to prove this "Amir Kror's" existence. In fact, there is not a single scientific proof that Pashto was spoken in the 7th century (in a time when not even New Persian existed) or in the region Ghor which has been discribed as a "Persian land" by al-Biruni 300 years later. Pashto was first spoken in a region further south, in what is now Pakistan (as evident by the use of retroflex consonants and ergatives) and moved further north in the 16th century. It was during the era of Shah Abbas that Pashtuns were given lands around Kandahar, and it was during the reign of Shah Safi that Pashtuns were appointed governors of Kandahar for the first time. See Encyclopaedia Iranica and Encyclopaedia of Islam. *sigh* Tajik (talk) 08:37, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

I have provided 6/7 sources as a reference. (Ketabtoon (talk) 18:50, 12 August 2009 (UTC))

I have checked the sources and I do not think that they are reliable, except for one of them which cites Dupree - however, I do not have access to the book and Google does not allow a preview. Tajik (talk) 19:10, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

If you don't find the sources reliable, than that is a different thing. The problem is that you don't like to see Pashtun sources here in wikipedia, but you yourself user Tajik/Iranian sources as your reference. If you don't have online access to some of the books which I have mentioned, than you are welcome to search for them some where else.

By the way, I found the books through a google search. Search in books section of google for "Amir Kror Suri" and you will come across all the books that I have sourced. [1], [2], [3]

You also have to remember that we cannot find a lot of english material on every topic related to Afghanistan. Most of the materials are in Pashto and Dari languages. You can find few general books related to Afghanistan in foreign langauges but they don't go into the details and they don't cover everything. (Ketabtoon (talk) 19:31, 12 August 2009 (UTC))

I do not like to see Pashtun sources in here, because they are not realiable. The same goes to many Persian sources. I do not remember using Persian sources except for PRIMARY SOURCES, that is the writigs and publications of certain historical personalities. The Encyclopaedia Iranica is not a Persian source, it is the standard reference work of Iranian studies, funded and published by Columbia University.

If you have any poems by Amir Kror and if you can prove that these are really his verses, then you can post them. So far, I have not seen any reliable sources. The links you have provided are useless, because the books are not visible except for a few words (not even a whole sentence). I guess that you are not an expert on the subject either and that you do not have any reliable sources. And that is not enough. Tajik (talk) 20:55, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

I never claimed to be an expert on any of the issues. As I mentioned before, if you don't think they are reliable sources than that is not my problem. You have given Encyclopdia of Islam as a reference in several articles, but I don't have access to that particular encyclopedia. I have given references and even page numbers of some of the books and the books do exist. It is upto you or other wikipedians to find the books and prove me wrong and tell me that they do not mention anything about Amir Kror.

I do have a poem of Amir Kror and its English translation. You can read the Pashto version of the poem right here [4].

You don't trust Pashtun sources on this matter, well I have given a few non-Pashtun sources as well. [5], [6], [7]. Manohar Singh Batra - an Indian, Louis Dupree and "Afghanistan. Information Bureau, London".

For such a short article, I have given 6 sources of which 3 of them are foreign sources. Therefore I am taking off the tag from the Article page. You are welcome to bring a neutral (not a Tajik/Iranian) third person for a 3rd opinion. (Ketabtoon (talk) 21:12, 12 August 2009 (UTC))

Anyone who who studies Islam / Oriental Studies / Iranistics etc. has access to the Encyclopaedia of Islam (EI2 or EI3). That way, real experts can easily check the source and the articles mentioned. Encyclopaedia Iranica is free anyway. The sources you have provided are neither reliable nor visible. You won't be able to convince any admin in here. Before they block this article and prevent us from editing it, I suggest you re-insert the tags. Tajik (talk) 21:45, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

I have asked for a third person's opinion Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard (Ketabtoon (talk) 21:52, 12 August 2009 (UTC))

About the originality of Pata Khazana, almost all experts believe that it's a forgery (some directly accuse Habibi for this forgery, and some believe that it's done a few years before 1940s, by others). So, the misinformation about the first recorded Pashto poetry should be removed. Also, if no source (other than Pata Khazana) can be found about Amir Kror Suri, then this page should be redirected to Pata Khazana. Alefbe (talk) 23:24, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

I guess you did not read the discussion. I have provided sources (3 foreign sources) which do mention that Amir Kror Suri's poem was the first Pashto poem to be recorded. Manohar Singh Batra, an Indian has written about him (PP. 9-14) in his book "Afghanistan" which was published in 1964. There are two other books which I have used as a reference which also states that Amir Kror Suri's poem was the first recorded Pashto poem.

I would still request a non-Tajik/Iranian wikipedian to give his/her opinion on this issue. (Ketabtoon (talk) 00:38, 13 August 2009 (UTC))

Manohar Singh Batra and Louis Dupree are not experts on Iranian languages and their historical development. David Neil MacKenzie is an expert on these topics. Alefbe (talk) 00:47, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

I have proved that the central argument of David Neil MacKenzie is incorrect and baseless at Talk:Abdul_Hai_Habibi. I am just curious, what kind of an expert would make such baseless claims? (Ketabtoon (talk) 01:24, 14 August 2009 (UTC))

You did not prove anything and this is not the place to prove anything. So far, you still fail to provide any reliable sources. Posting 3 links to some books that you have not read is not enough - Google Books does not even have a preview for those books. Tajik (talk) 01:41, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Buy the books or rent the books. By the way, I don't have access to Mackenzie's book either. I have provided 6 sources whether you like them or not. I have proved that Maceknzie's claim are baseless and incorrect. (Ketabtoon (talk) 01:57, 14 August 2009 (UTC))

This is not the point, Ketabtoon. The point is that you claim books as sources that you yourself have not read. You do a simple search on Google Books, cannot find a single book with preview option, see one or two words from a book - at best a small sentence - and conclude from that sentence that a certain scholar supports your views. That is totally unencyclopedic, unscholarly, and it may even be interpreted as intentional falsification of sources. MacKenzie's book was quoted by Sommerkom (talk · contribs) and he also gives a specific quote: ... there can be no doubt that the unique manuscript of the Peta xazana, supposedly dating from 1300/1886, and finally published in facsimile in 1354/1975, is a complete fake - a pia fraus - along with its entire contents, probably concocted in about 1940. ... - David N. Mackenzie: The Development of the Pashto Script. In: Shirin Akiner (Editor): Languages and Scripts of Central Asia. School of Oriental and African Studies, Univ. of London, London 1997, ISBN 9780728602724, p. 142

Such a quote can easily be checked by others. You, on the other hand, have absolutely nothing comparable. You do not give the name of the book, not additional information, no specific page numbers, and you are not able to quote - and that is because you yourself have not read those books. Besides that, you attack scholars such as MacKenzie (who is perhaps the leading scholar on Pashto literature) although you are absolutely not in a position to do that. I strongly suggest to you to read Wikipedia's rules FIRST (such as WP:OR and WP:SOURCES). Otherwise, you will lose credibility among others users and among admins. Tajik (talk) 08:34, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

manuscript of Pata Khazana is available at Library of the Hungarian Academy of Sciences

"On November 22, 2003, an article on Pata Khazana by Magda Katona appeared in Magyar Nemzet Magazin of Budapest in Hungary. The author states that a manuscript of Pata Khazana is preseved in the Armin Vambery Collection of the Library of the Hungarian Academy of Sciences. It was obtained by Armin Vambery in 1859 A.D. from Yakub Khan of Herat."

"Armin Vambery - a Hungarian Orientalist and traveler - was born in 1832. After initial education he acquired some twenty Oriental languages and dialects. He visited Teheran, Mecca, and spent several months with dervishes in rough and squalid travel through the deserts of Asia. He succeeded in maintaining his disguise, and on arriving at Khiva went safely through two audiences of the Khan. Passing Bokhara, they reached Samarkand, where the Emir, whose suspicions were aroused, kept him in audience for a full half-hour; but he stood the test so well that the Emir was not only pleased with "Reshid Effendi" (Vambery's assumed name), but gave him handsome presents. He then reluctantly turned back by way of Herat, where he took leave of the dervishes. In Heart he met Yakub Khan, who gave me a manuscript of Pata Khazana. After that Armin Vambery returned with a caravan to Teheran, and subsequently, in March 1864, through Trebizond and Erzerum to Constantinople." The paragraphs are quoted from http://www.ariaye.com/english/khazanah.html

Here is the article from Magyar Nemzet Magazin of Budapest in Hungary http://mn.mno.hu/portal/185465 . You can use google translation to translate it to English. (Ketabtoon (talk) 07:38, 14 August 2009 (UTC))

Something to keep in mind

An argument about the validity of sources can and will go on indefinitely between two editors. For almost any historical viewpoint, one can find a contemporary author and many historical authors to back it up. For example, it is very easy for me to find sources saying Shi'a Islam was created by Abdullah ibn Saba, when almost all historians openly reject this theory as completely fallacious. That not withstanding, I can give you hundreds of sources, each as badly constructed as the last to prove such an idea.

What matters is the value of these sources, despite whatever handicap the English language may currently have to such a scholastic endeavor. I strongly suggest sticking to sources such as Britannica, Encyclopedia of Islam, Encyclopedia Iranica, and other sources that are intrinsically neutral, even if this can cripple the size of the article. Not all articles can be long, and not all articles can transcend the limit of sources in the English language. --Afghana ^[talk] 08:25, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you about trying to stick to intrinsically neutral sources. However, the Encyclopedia of Islam and Encyclopedia Iranica do not fit into that category. While certain articles may be written even-handedly, in many cases the author of an article has an axe to grind. Even the Encyclopedia Britannica is guilty of Anglo-centrism in many articles. --Bejnar (talk) 06:20, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Article appears to be highly plausible

Judging from the references, I'd say that sources in this article are credible and in my opinion, the factual accuracy should not be questioned. Scythian1 (talk) 01:07, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

RV

I have reverted WP:POV, WP:OR, and nationalistic, pseudo-scientific nonsense added by the IP of banned User:NisarKand. Tajik (talk) 16:14, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

You have removed sourced information from a book that you called "excellent references" yesterday [8] and the 16th century historian Ferishta work. Their information about Amir Suri is considered reliable for Wikipedia. If he is not the same Amir Suri as Amir Kror Suri, at least he is a relative and so why you remove it from the article? I think he is the same person but only the date is given wrong in the Pashto sources. Why are you Shias always messing with Pashtun articles so much? Don't you have anything else inside your mind other than hate? I mean in this whole Wikipedia project it is only Shias coming and bothering my work. The rest of the world are keeping it cool. This is really disgusting and I wish you Shias stop this stupid evil childish behaviour.--119.73.3.51 (talk) 06:06, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Merge tag discussion

Oppose : There is no reason to merge this page with Pata Khazana , Pata Khazana is only one of the sources on Amir Suri , whereas there are several other reliable secondary sources on Amir Suri the King of Ghor defeated by Muhmad Ghazni for example E.J. Brill's first encyclopaedia of Islam, 1913-1936, Volume 7 By Martijn Theodoor Houtsma
Intothefire (talk) 05:57, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

You have apparently mistaken this 8th-century fictional character with the 11th-century historical figure who was in fight with Mahmud Ghaznavi (and whose name was Suri, but not Amir Kror). Alefbe (talk) 06:32, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Oppose : Like Intothefire mentioned, there are several other reliable secondary sources on Amir Suri. I have used some of them as references. The article has 9 sources, but we still see a "needs additional citations for verification" and "factual accuracy dispute" tags. I don't see any reason why those tags along with the merge tag are there anymore. (Ketabtoon (talk) 06:15, 14 February 2010 (UTC))

Read my response to User:Intothefire. Alefbe (talk) 06:32, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

The other sources specifically mentions (Louis Dupree is among the sources) about Amir Kror Suri. (Ketabtoon (talk) 06:38, 14 February 2010 (UTC))

All those sources are directly or indirectly based on Habibi's claims and Pata Khazana (and many consider Pata Khazana as just a forgery). Alefbe (talk) 06:44, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

In other words, Louis Dupree, Afghanistan. Information Bureau, London, Manohar Singh Batra and others have no problem with Habibi's claims and they even support it - otherwise they wouldn't have mentioned anything about Amir Kror Suri. And why would a Hungarian claim this [9] - use google translation? We are not talking about Pashtun sources, but we are talking about foreign sources in here. (Ketabtoon (talk) 06:53, 14 February 2010 (UTC))

Louis Dupree and people like him are not experts on historical linguistics and Iranian languages. Those who are expert on these topics (like David N. Mackenzie) have concluded that Pata Khazana is not a genuine historical manuscript and is just a forgery. Anyway, if this page is not merged with Pata Khazana, then the fact that all the sources on Amir Kror are based on Pata Khazana should be definitely mentioned here and the lack of credibility of Pata Khazana should be discussed in this page. Alefbe (talk) 07:05, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

• There is no evidence that these non-experts on historical linguistics and Iranian languages are reliable with respect to the authenticity of the manuscript. Mere mentions of the manuscript, such as in the Hungarian reference above, do not provide any guidance. So the question really should be, given the unauthentic status of the Pata Khazana, whether there are any reliable sources that are independent of the Pata Khazana that can provide enough material for an article. Are there any? If not then he becomes a character in a book, and needs to be held up to that standard of notability, and if he fails that standard then merger is appropriate. My analysis is that merger is appropriate. But I would be open to reasoned analysis indicating that he is independently notable as a character. --Bejnar (talk) 19:49, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

recent edits

Amir Kror is a legendary character in Pashtun folklore and he is most likely a creation of Abdul Hai Habibi. he is the one who created this character and there are absolutely no proofs for his existence,the only source is the Pata Khazana which is also controversial.--Inuit18 (talk) 18:42, 30 September 2010 (UTC)