Talk:Abdul Hai Habibi

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I removed the "article issues" tag because I provided everything (expanded article, linked other pages to the article, provided an intro, provided sources and added extra informations) that was asked.

Abdul Hai Habibi is a very notable person among Afghans. Almost every academic person nows him. In a country like Afghanistan a person who writes over 100 books is obviously well known and notable. I have given a summary of his work history.

I should also mention that "www.alamahabibi.com" is not a self published source. The site was created after his death (almost 20 years after his death) and it contains a soft copy of some of his books (32 books) and articles. (Ketabtoon (talk) 05:26, 12 August 2009 (UTC))

www.alamahabibi.com cannot serve as a source in this article. I have also removed the sentence that he was born into a "family of intellectuals and scholars". Even though this may be true, it is neither sourced (all I could find was that he himself was self-educated) nor relevant. It can be re-added if proper sources are presented. Tajik (talk) 14:55, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

I must agree with Tajik on this subject. I will disclose, I am the great grandson of Mr. Habibi, but I will not edit the article in case I may be biased. The website www.alamahabibi.com is run my my great uncle, the son of Mr. Habibi It is but a biography and collection of works from his life. Any information there is from relevant work though, which you can cite, such as a book or paper written by him. MrAKinsey (talk) 18:58, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

David Neil MacKenzie's central argument is baseless

"MacKenzies central argument refers to the use of the modern Pashto letters ẓ̌e (ـږ) and ṇun (ڼ) throughout the script which were only introduced into the Pashto alphabet in 1936 when the Afghan government reformed the Pashto orthography. The two letters have never been found simultaneously in any genuise manuscript before 1935." (from the article page - Criticism section)

According to some wikipedians, Mackenzie claims that Pashto letters ẓ̌e (ـږ) and ṇun (ڼ) were introduced after 1936 but I have access to the original copy of the constitution of Afghanistan which was printed in 1926 A.D. The constitution can be found online at the "Afghanistan Digital Library" which is party of http://www.nye.edu - New York University's website.

"Asāsī niẓāmnāmah dalūṛ dawlat da Afghānistān" which was the constitution of Afghanistan in 1926 is the 9th book in the list [1]. Letter ṇun (ڼ) is used in page #6, line #7, word #4 (چاپی کتابونه يا پاڼی). Letter ẓ̌e (ـږ) is used in page#2, line#6, word #1 (کيږی).

Now what kind of a historian would make such baseless claims? (Ketabtoon (talk) 01:16, 14 August 2009 (UTC))

It's a simple typing mistake. 1936 instead of 1926. MacKenzie is correct - those letters were introduced to Pashto in the 20th century, yet according to Habibi they were used from the 7th to the 19th century in Pashto literature, without giving any specific proofs and without showing his allegedly "original" manuscripts to other scholars. Tajik (talk) 01:37, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

My friend, this is an Encyclopedia. If there is a typo, than you are welcome to get in touch with Mackenzie because using him as a reference at this stage is pretty useless because I proved him to be wrong. Very soon, I will be deleting that part of the article because Mackenzie's claims are baseless according to the Constitution of Afghanistan - 1926. (Ketabtoon (talk) 01:54, 14 August 2009 (UTC))

If it was a typo (it is 1926 instead of 1936) from Mackenzie or the wikipedian who provided that information than there is another printed version of the Constitution of Afghanistan from 1923 - The 10th book [2]. Letter ṇun (ڼ) is used in image #8 / page #6, line #4, word #4 (چاپی کتابونه يا پاڼی). Letter ẓ̌e (ـږ) is used in page#3 / image #5, line#7, word #7 (کيږی). (Ketabtoon (talk) 02:54, 14 August 2009 (UTC))

The important thing is that these letters were not being used in the 18th century. Anyway, MacKenzie is a well-known expert on this subject and Wikipedia is not the right place to publish your research results on discrediting his argument (you should publish it in a reputable journal, and then you can cite it here). Alefbe (talk) 04:08, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Like it or not, I have proved that Mackenzie was wrong. You cannot use him as a source in here. Remember, you are trying to criticize a famous personality from Afghanistan with uncorrect information. This is what the discussion page is about. To discuss the materials provided in an article page. The neutrality/POV of the criticism section is in dispute. (Ketabtoon (talk) 04:54, 14 August 2009 (UTC))

First of all: Please read the publication before you start a pointless fight about its accuracy. Both sides here are just being ridiculous. Ketabtoon just disproved the most reputable paper on the development of pashto script while Tajik found that a central number in it is just a mispelling. Yeah, you're both right, all those academic peer-reviewers just didn't have your knowledge. Lucia Serena Loi, the author of the first translation of the Pata Khazana, who first mentioned that anachronism, obviously didn't have a clue, either.

Just a hint: Ketabtoon, you are trying to falsify what Tajik claims MacKenzie wrote. He apparently hasn't seen the publication, either, nor has he much knowledge about the development of the pashto script. The letter ẓ̌e (ـږ) has been a part of all pashto writing systems, starting with the earliest known manuscript dating from 1651. The only one claiming otherwise is Tajik. --Sommerkom (talk) 05:53, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

The claim quoted and referred to David Mackenzie that letters of Pashto alphabets Dze (ځ) and Nun (ڼ) were recent and introduced in 1936 is unbelievable. In Pashto literature there are many texts, which show the two alphabets letters were used and written in the present form. In his book Nisab-i-Afghani (Afghani curriculum) written by Mohammad Ismail and printed in 1866 by Peshawar Jail Press by the order of Mr. Henry Bakt inspector of schools for tribal regions, uses the present alphabetic forms. On pages 4-5 of his book Mohd Ismail writes that in the poetry books of Khatak poets of the 17th and18th century, the alphabet Dze(ځ) was written with hamza (ء) on the top.

In Tazkerat-al-Awliya (Memoirs of Saints) of Suliaman Maku written in 1216 AD the letters Dze (خ) was written with a hamza on the top and a dot (as in Jem ج) and Nun was written as presently used . See page 2 line 4, page 3 line 5, page 7 line 5 for Dze and page 2 line 7 for Nun. See AlamaHabibi.com. In books section view Tazkerat-al-Awliya (Momoirs of Saints) copy of original manascript.

Sh800m (talk) 18:47, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

manuscript of Pata Khazana is available at Library of the Hungarian Academy of Sciences

"On November 22, 2003, an article on Pata Khazana by Magda Katona appeared in Magyar Nemzet Magazin of Budapest in Hungary. The author states that a manuscript of Pata Khazana is preseved in the Armin Vambery Collection of the Library of the Hungarian Academy of Sciences. It was obtained by Armin Vambery in 1859 A.D. from Yakub Khan of Herat."

"Armin Vambery - a Hungarian Orientalist and traveler - was born in 1832. After initial education he acquired some twenty Oriental languages and dialects. He visited Teheran, Mecca, and spent several months with dervishes in rough and squalid travel through the deserts of Asia. He succeeded in maintaining his disguise, and on arriving at Khiva went safely through two audiences of the Khan. Passing Bokhara, they reached Samarkand, where the Emir, whose suspicions were aroused, kept him in audience for a full half-hour; but he stood the test so well that the Emir was not only pleased with "Reshid Effendi" (Vambery's assumed name), but gave him handsome presents. He then reluctantly turned back by way of Herat, where he took leave of the dervishes. In Heart he met Yakub Khan, who gave me a manuscript of Pata Khazana. After that Armin Vambery returned with a caravan to Teheran, and subsequently, in March 1864, through Trebizond and Erzerum to Constantinople." The paragraphs are quoted from http://www.ariaye.com/english/khazanah.html

Here is the article which was published at Magyar Nemzet Magazin of Budapest in Hungary http://mn.mno.hu/portal/185465 . You can use google translation to translate it to English. (Ketabtoon (talk) 07:39, 14 August 2009 (UTC))

Edited POV

I edited a section of the article to make it more NPOV and removed improperly sourced information. According to most of the sources, Abdul Hai Habibi went into exile (Peshawar, Pakistan) in 1950s because of his opposition to the government. While in exile, he published Azad Afghanistan (Free Afghanistan) journal, not a political party. Most of the sources don't mention anything about Habibi's allegedly trying to overthrow the government and Pakistani involvement in it. These are sources that talk about his exile to Peshawar [3], [4]. There are few other google books as well but they can't be viewed. Malcolm Yapp's report is the only source that mentions about a political party, Afghan Republican Party, however even that source doesn't mention anything about Pakistani involvement and the "allegedly trying to overthrow the government". (Ketabtoon (talk) 03:44, 6 March 2010 (UTC))

This sentence does not mention a party or faction. please reread the source: In the 1950s, he allegedly tried to overthrow the government while living in Pakistani exile and he started the Azad Afghanistan ("Free Afghanistan") journal against the government. --Inuit18 (talk) 04:59, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Can you please quote the exact paragraph from the book where it says all that. I am sure you do not have access to Malcom Yapp's book and you came across the book by googling "Azad Afghanistan". Yapp's book is the first result gaven by google and it only shows some part of the paragraph which writes "In August he appeared at Peshawar, where he began organising an Afghan Republican Party and, in December, publishing a weekly paper. Azad Afghanistan, as ...". The link which you have provided is a snippet view of that particular section of the book - even that doesn't mention anything about any kind of overthrow and Pakistani involvement in it. (Ketabtoon (talk) 11:43, 6 March 2010 (UTC))

"...weekly paper,Azad Afghanistan as its organ. His programme comprises the overthrow of the Yahyakhel family....." This statement is in the snippet view.--Inuit18 (talk) 01:48, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Inuit18's revert of Lagoo Sab's edit

@ Inuit18 - I see you have asked Lagoo sab to discuss his edit before reverting your revert. Don't you think it would be a good idea if YOU use the discussion page first and explain why you disagree with his edits and what needs to be changed and what not? Because I don't see why you have reverted his edit in here. Technically, a wikipedian edits a page. If another wikipedian doesn't agree with the edits, the second wikipedian uses the discussion page and writes why he/she disagrees.

And, as far as I see, most part of his edit was "wikifing" the sources. (Ketabtoon (talk) 03:19, 4 October 2010 (UTC))

Don't expect an answer from Inuit. S/he violated the terms of his/her last unblock by performing multiple reverts and has been indefinitely blocked. Toddst1 (talk) 03:34, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

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