Talk:Alesana/Archive 1

Archive 1

Emo

Just to let everyone know I am related to one of the two founding members of alesana. They came up with the term sweetcore to describe their music. In fact when they released their first album on tragic hero records they had a few hundred alesana shirts made with xoxo sweetcore on the front and a heart with our area code 919[1] on the back. They also have described themselves as screamo emo and post hardcore as well especially since myspace doesn't allow you to type in SweetCore. ~meckface

I believe in AMP magazine quite a few months ago they called themselves "sweetcore" and does it really matter if they are emo or not?

can some one plz post a pic w/ a left to right heading w/ thier names i cant figur out whos who —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.82.57.145 (talk) 01:30, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

They are emo.In their myspace is written that.And another thing - find place where is said they're Not emo and I won't change it again. In Allmusic.com is also stated "screamo/post-hardcore" If you don't think that way-write in this talk page and do not just edit the article without any sources! Xr 1 08:05, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

So what if their Myspace states that genre? Perhaps they should read the screamo article, aswell. Myspace isn't a relevant source. Enter Shikari lists their genre on their myspace as J-pop. Does that make them a J-pop band? No. In your talk page you even said yourself, about another genre dispute, that "...according to me they are pop punk." Wikipedia is not a place for personal opinion. Ambrosia- 02:34, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

"Wikipedia is not a place for personal opinion"...well then write the wrong labels.I say what I think and I think in that way because I've listened to the music and know about the genre.And it's not just my personal opinion: [2], [3], [4], [5] "They should read the screamo article" an article in wikipedia cannot make them not a screamo,emo,post-hardcore group. Although I've read the article and there it's said only "Characteristic of the genre are screaming vocals, harmonized guitars, and fast-paced riffs." Well they have that!Xr 1 18:41, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Who are you to say that? Get a real source. You aren't to write "what you think". This is an encyclopedia, not a blog. Take a long at what Wikipedia is, specifically

WIKIPEDIA IS NOT FOR UNSOURCED MATERIAL

WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A PLACE TO PUBLISH YOUR OPINIONS

WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A PLACE TO PUBLISH YOUR NEW IDEAS

You say that it's what you think, but then you go and say it's not just your opinion? You are just citing uncredible sources. MP3.com and Urban Dictionary are user submitted work (that means that those also have no sources) and Myspace and Purevolume aren't credible sources, regardless of whether or not you think they are.Ambrosia- 17:45, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok.I'll not write my opinion (no matter that when I think something it is checked and not invented by me) But isn't this a reliable source - [6] ? Xr 1 18:22, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

I am unsure, but really, if you read the post-hardcore article, you will also see that post-hardcore incorporates screaming into the music. Screamo is a totally different genre, as the majority of Alesana's music is not screaming, making the (uninformed) adding of "screamo" as a genre just plain redundant. IMO, screamo is a very overused word with an underused meaning. Ambrosia- 18:44, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

You have a mistake-The Majority of Alesana's music IS with screaming.There are screams in almost every song.Just listen. And I'm not gonna change the genre because Post-Hardcore is a general term which include Emo,Screamo,Metalcore etc. Xr 1 19:25, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Just because their are screams "in almost every song" does not make them a screamo band. Do go through list of screamo groups and tell me if any other bands you would consider "screamo" are listed in there. The band incorporates as much melodic singing (if not more) as screaming. Just because a band has screaming vocals does not mean they are a screamo band. Differentiate between hardcore/post-hardcore and screamo. Ambrosia- 19:35, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

You've understanded me wrong.Yes-screams don't make a band screamo.I'm just saying that they scream in almost every song because you said 'as the majority of Alesana's music is not screaming' AND The list of screamo bands include many bands that are not screamo.When you click and open some of the articles you can find that genres are metalcore,emo,hardcore without screamo Xr 1 19:41, 19 May 2007 (UTC) Here are sources (which can be definite as reliable) that describe Alesana as Emo/Screamo: [7] [8] [9] Xr 1 20:35, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

need4sound and iSound don't even have a Wikipedia page. Many post-hardcore and metalcore bands are mistakingly added. And once again proving that you have no clue what you are talking about, screamo is an offshoot of emo and hardcore. Podshow itself is not devoted to music, so I do not see how it could be a reliable source in a genre dispute.

"PodShow.com, the main brand of Podshow, Inc., is a social networking website, podcast directory, podcast delivery network, and music store" Ambrosia- 20:57, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

And what if they don't have a wikipedia page??Wikipedia can't have pages for everything! "And once again proving that you have no clue what you are talking about, screamo is an offshoot of emo and hardcore." Yes I know that.Where I've said it's not an offshoot of emo and hardcore?? But in the page about Post-harcore is said that Emo and Screamo are its derivative forms. "Many post-hardcore and metalcore bands are mistakingly added." Oh, I'm so glad you finally agreed with me about something.I've said I wouldn't change the genre section, but Alesana is Emocore/Post-Hardcore and can be also described as being Screamo. Xr 1 21:10, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

If they were reliable sources, they would have their own Wikipedia page, no. As for the rest, I really have no clue what you are saying. Ambrosia- 03:24, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm saying that Post-Hardcore is rather a cross genre reference, a stage (like Post Punk) including all the genres that come from Hardcore Punk than a single genre.That's why Emo,Screamo,Math rock,Metalcore are listed as it's derivative forms in it's article.If you try to argue with me about that Post-Hardcore is a single genre I'd say the article needs a big clean up-a message is shown when you open it so you can't trust it very much. Post-Hardcore is fine for Alesana's genre but if someone include Emo/Screamo would be better.I listen to some screamo and I can tell they have screamo in their sound-but this is a personal opinion.Because of that I find sources-you can say they're not relialbe but allmusic is and there is written "Post-Hardcore, Screamo". And you're saying that if something doesn't have page in wikipedia it's stupid.Well I'm from Bulgaria-many Bulgarian musicians don't have page here-So according to you they are stupid??? Xr 1 07:37, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Where have I said that Bulgarian musicians are stupid? Hell, where have I said anything is stupid? I am saying that if a source that you would call "reliable", and it were as widely known (therefore credible), it would have it's own Wikipedia page. Perhaps learn to grasp the concept of the English language? Once again, screamo is a term thrown around that many people don't know the meaning of. Just because you read it on the band's Myspace or Purevolume, doesn't make it so. And don't give me any "I found other sources" BS, because you had only searched up for their genre (on other sources) after I told you that Myspace wouldn't have been a credible source. Ambrosia- 13:49, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

• Ok, but if they're not widely known that doesn't make them unreliable!And because something doesn't have page here that doesn't mean it's insignificant and stupid.I gave example with the musicians because they also don't have page here.You don't say they are stupid but your post can be interpreted as you meant that only significant things in the world have pages in wikipedia.But let's go back to the genre discussion.
• I guess you will find source that IS reliable and states they're NOT Emo/Screamo!!If you do this I'll admit that they're not screamo/emo.Xr 1 14:09, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

There are no sites that state what genre a band isn't. Ok, you still don't get what I mean. If something IS AS CREDIBLE AS YOU SAY IT IS, IT WOULD BE QUITE POPULAR AND WOULD MOST LIKELY HAVE IT'S OWN WIKIPEDIA PAGE. Yes, if they aren't widely known, they probably wouldn't be reliable. However, the two unreliable sources you gave me were NOT RELIABLE.

WP:RS:

Yeah I know there are no sites that state what genre a band isn't. I meant- find me some source where is not written emo/screamo as their genre and it's just post-hardcore.And then I'll leave only post-hardcore as a genre.And some opinios of users can't make a band not screamo-as you said-they are just personal opinions.And wikipedia works with sources which state- Emocore/Screamo.Reliable or not-there are no other sources!Xr 1

• Alesana isn't a hardcore punk band.But what the hell is doing this with the emo tag??Yeah,emocore roots start from hardcore punk but it's a different genre.Even the first emo bands didn't play true hardcore.
• Post-hardcore scene started from hardcore punk.But Alesana isn't hardcore.According to your explanation that means they're not post-hardcore??Yeah, right.

Xr 1 19:44, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

It seems most of us do agree with the fact that they are NOT a post-hardcore band. I want to find sources that say they aren't post-hardcore... Oh wait... Yeah, that's not gunna happen. To be honest, I read the Wikipedia article to find out about the band, because I like Post-Hardcore... but I was dissapointed in the fact that they are not one. Post-Hardcore would be like Project 86 (especially their earlier stuff). Also, about being known... I guess this band is known, but if someone here says they aren't well known, then are they notable enough for Wikipedia (I say yes but...). Screamo fits them better than Post-Hardcore - Post-Hardcore doesn't fit them at all. Where are the sources for them being post-hardcore? Their record label? Their record label also did The Aquabats and other non Post-Hardcore bands, so don't use that. That's like saying Tooth and Nail Records does only Christian music (the majority is, but not all of them). There are more websites stating they are screamo (or emo) than anything else. Also, this is not your page, Ambrosia-, AngelofSadness. You two may think they are post-hardcore, but they are not. Like one of you said before, Wikipedia is not a place to type what you "think." Find a source stating they are post-hardcore and they will be put into thatcategory. There are more sources stating that they are screamo/emo than anythign else. If you fail to find a reliable, non-biased source, then the genre will be changed to the appropriate one. YES, the wikipedia article states that post-hardcore can incorprate screaming into their music. So does Screamo. So does Metal. Post-Hardcore usess heavy riffs and what you could call a "thick Bass" or "heavy bass." The article states these as Post-Hardcore bands: Post-hardcore also includes bands with decidedly art rock leanings such as Fugazi, Drive Like Jehu, Bear vs. Shark, Rapeman, Shellac, Big Black, Quicksand, Hot Water Music, Helmet, Glassjaw, Far, At the Drive-In, and Thrice. Alesana does not sound like them. Screamo does "loud-to-soft" post hardcore generally does NOT. Also, if their myspace is nto a credible source, it should be taken OFF the page. I don't even see refreences on the page, so beware that someone will tag it for deletion or change this up alot more. Their own website states they are Emo/Pop Punk. http://www.alesanarock.com/ click Band. I have added them to the genre that their WEBSITE says, not what you think they are. IronCrow 01:43, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Just so you know, Ironcrow, I don't listen to this band at all. I only have this page on my watchlist in case a long term sockpuppet returns(the person who's comments I was replying to on the talkpage back in July). He comes back every now and again, and I was just asking for sources because he would not stop changing the genre of numerous articles without a reason/source or discussion. I got him to discuss it, hence the sections below in all caps. If you want great sources regarding the genre, find an interview with the band themselves discussing the genre. One of the most asked questions to musical artists is "describe your music" and so it shouldn't be too hard to find. If not try a big music magazine like rolling stone or something. AngelOfSadness talk 21:28, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

If you don't listen to them at all, then why do you put it into the post-hardcore genre? Their website is the most reliable thing, and points toward what they are. There is no reason to list them as a genre to settle a dispute. They are not Post-Hardcore and have little, if any, influences of that genre. There are no sources stating that they are post-hardcore. There are stating they are emo/screamo, however, even if they are unreliable, it is something. HOWEVER, I do see what you are saying, sorta. Also, about interviews, I can find few, and that question hasn't really been asked. IronCrow 21:40, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually I never typed that in, I probably reverted the edits of the sockpuppet(And three reports, three times it was confirmed) to whatever was there and chances are post-hardcore was there already. I was just trying to get him to discuss the changes on the talkpage first before changing, that's all. He did the exact same thing with thirty other articles and attacked other editors over it. I was just concerned in getting him to calm down as he seemed out of control. Anyway, that was three months ago and an experience that I wish to forget. You can put whatever you want into the genre of this article just as long as it's sourced. And of course the other main editors of the article agree with it :D AngelOfSadness talk 21:56, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I see, thanks for clearing that up. I was so confused I had to listen to their songs again to make sure I wasn't missing anything. They aren't my favorite band, and they get old, but... meh... The genre I stuck up there are what matches with what is aligned with their website, even though I don't agree with their genre as on the website, but I can't do a thing about it. Thanks again. IronCrow 22:06, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Don't worry you weren't missing anything. I just remembered that finding specific interviews with the band discussing genre isn't easy when researching it but if you look up some fansites, fansites are a great source of interviews and link that page to the article. Yes the only thing fansites are good for is interviews, many of them give sources as to where they got the interview originally from and then you could link that website instead. Anyway I hope you find what you're looking for and if you need any additional help, you can always leave a message on my talkpage. Happy Editing Everyone! :D AngelOfSadness talk 22:14, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I would... but they don't have a good fansite... It states they blend metal... that's like saying 50 cent is country... meh, how it is now is good. Website is more reliable. IronCrow 22:37, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Are you meaning to say that 50 cent isn't country? :D I meant fansite a lot of the time aren't good because point of view etc, but a few of them have interviews as magazine scans/youtube interviews. You can't link to the magazine scans/youtube links themselves as of breach of copyright but you can reference them e.g "Interview with Alesana in issue 1223 of Kerrang" or "Interview with Alesana episode 46 of Whatever Rock Show You Want To Insert Here:D". There's a way to format them properly for the references section. But referencing them like this is better than linking them to copyrighted material. AngelOfSadness talk 23:00, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Just because a band doesn't sound like another band within the genre does not mean they are not. Are you saying that Hot Cross isn't a hardcore punk band because they don't sound like Bad Brains? Jet (band) isn't rock because they don't sound like Led Zeppelin? As well, their website only states that they attract audiences of emo/pop punk. No where does it say the band plays that genre of music. ~Ambrosia- ^talk 00:12, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually it does. They have NO elements of Post-Hardcore whatsoever. They have so many elements of Screamo it's ridiculous that it isn't in taht genre. Just because YOU think the genre is Post-Hardcore means nothing. You have no sources WHATSOEVER that they are post-hardcore. Even if their purevolume and myspace are not reliable, they are the ONLY sources stating their genre, which is emo/screamo, a genre we all dissagree with. Therefore, you are wrong in displaying what their genre is. Do you even know what a Post-HArdcore band is? They are NOTHING like this band, nothing. And the Bad Brains example was a horrible example, Hardcore punk takes many different forms, as post-hardcore is more of an extended subgenre, tehrefore, does not. Their website says NOTHING about post-hardcore. They attract audiences that love the emo/pop punk scene, yes. Now, before you edit this page again, give me SOURCES stating they are POST-HARDCORE and if it is unbiased and agreeable, then the edit will revert. Again, YOU think it is post-hardcore, you do not have SOURCES at all. Naming them as post-hardcore because of their record label is not a way to do things. There is more evidense to state that they are SCREAMO than post-hardcore. You are not the official spokesperson for the band or whatever. Again, YOU think they are Post-Hardcore, no one else does. DO NOT change it back to post-hardcore, else we want mediation, and that process annoys me. You show a certain bias for them being post-hardcore. That is fine, just don't bring that to Wikipedia. And Screamo is NOT a redundant genre. Redundant would be Rock, Metal, pop, they want specifics. You DO NOT own this article, YOu do not choose what genre they are, therefore, before you make another edit to state that they are Post-Hardcore, FIND SOURCES, even if the sources are a little biased, that's ok, because at least they are better than purevolume or myspace. IronCrow 18:15, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

"You have no sources WHATSOEVER that they are post-hardcore." - where are yours?

"Just because YOU think the genre is Post-Hardcore means nothing." - just because you think they are screamo and emo means nothing.

"Do you even know what a Post-HArdcore band is? They are NOTHING like this band, nothing." - personal opinion, take it elsewhere

"Now, before you edit this page again, give me SOURCES stating they are POST-HARDCORE and if it is unbiased and agreeable, then the edit will revert." - umm, where are yours?

"Again, YOU think it is post-hardcore, you do not have SOURCES at all." Contradict yourself more

"Naming them as post-hardcore because of their record label is not a way to do things. There is more evidense to state that they are SCREAMO than post-hardcore." - I don't recall mentioning record labels whatsoever, and where's this evidence?

"You are not the official spokesperson for the band or whatever." - are you the official spokesperson for post-hardcore? lulz

"Again, YOU think they are Post-Hardcore, no one else does." - it's been post-hardcore for months, I think that means something

"You DO NOT own this article, YOu do not choose what genre they are, therefore, before you make another edit to state that they are Post-Hardcore, FIND SOURCES, even if the sources are a little biased, that's ok, because at least they are better than purevolume or myspace." - right back at you.

Seriously, take a look at and look at many bands that you would not consider "post-hardcore" by YOUR standards. Seriously. ~Ambrosia- ^talk 18:53, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

For one thing, most of those have already been answered. I never said you said that they were post-hardcore because of the label, I was saying they are not because of this, in case one would find that as a reason. I already said I do not have good sources, I said I have the ONLY sources. You have none. The bands listed on the Post-Hardcore page suit me just fine, because the ones listed on that page ARE post-hardcore. And finally, that last statement was uncalled for and certainly immature. Just further shows your bias. If you wish to make Wikipedia a better place, then do not act as such and please, please do not do as you have done, it makes this place look bad. If anything, do not stoop to trolling, please. You are almost touching that borderline. IronCrow 20:21, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

So, although Alesana bears significant resemblance to bands like Aiden, Drop Dead, Gorgeous and Hawthorne Heights, they aren't post-hardcore? Calling me immature further shows your bias, lewlers. The last comment was merely a joke, sorry I offended you. You can have as many sources as you want, if they're not credible they mean squat. I could merely say their Purevolume states that they are post-hardcore as it is the first genre mentioned. Another source also states that are post-hardcore, although that not mean it is credible and here's another. ~Ambrosia- ^talk 02:39, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not going to keep arguing with you about this. You also kind of copied my sentence there, and I don't think you meant that as a joke, nor was that last comment a joke. Even if it was, it's not for discussion. You are still showing bias... again... And again, there are still more sources, even if they do mean "squat." IronCrow 04:03, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't see why you keep bringing up this "more sources" argument. You could have millions of dollars in Monopoly money, that doesn't mean it's valid. Don't give me that bias crap, you're doing the exact same thing. Seriously, compare a screamo band like Envy (band) or Orchid (band) to them and tell me they belong in the same genre. Screamo and emo are terms tossed around that many people do not know the true meaning of.

By the way, my sources (and I am just going to assume the first genre mentioned would be the most relevant one): [10], [11], [12], [13], [14]

Since the Wikipedia article on screamo is pretty much vague as hell, I think I'll toss this in here and I'm changing the genre to post-hardcore since the band's official site biography describes them as in the "post-hardcore scene". ~Ambrosia- ^talk 01:44, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for providing a source. Though I still believe they are Screamo (Not Emo, Post-Hardcore), and even though they do not fit the post-hardcore definition, you do have a source, however, I have also added them to the Emo genre as well, since your source states they are also emo: http://www.punknews.org/review/6674 Apparently, you are the one who is biased, using a source while not including BOTH the genres it states. Do you have a bias against this band being labeled Emo? Also, I am not biased on this subject. By the way, your monopoly money example was a bad one. I love Screamo AND post-hardcore, and I do not care what genre they consider themselves. But a Hardcore Emo band is what...? Anyways, like I said, I do NOT think they are Emo but I put it in the article, didn't I? How am I being biased if you provided NO sources at the time, when I had at least 2 (not-so-good ones). Also, if the two sources I had were not good enough, then that would be an abuse of Wikipedia Notability. Also, Punknews.org isn't a good source. It is a sources that can be used, but a good source, no. They are probably one of the most biased review sites out there. Now, I also want to bring to mind your tone. Wikipedia Talk pages are not to be used in the tone you have used. Talk pages are relaxed and professional. I mean no offense, however, you are being quite angry with me over a little subject, a band's genre of all things. Please note that you have already abused NPOV issues. Now, I'm going to say this once: Your source of Punknews.org says they are EMO and POST-HARDCORE, you put down only post hardcore because it said it first? Not right. That is biased. It says both, they BOTH are to be used then. Second, don't use a childish tone with me or any other fellow Wikipedian. If you dislike anyone, that's fine, do not impose on me with your dislike because I do not care for it and niether do others. Also, remember that when you use sources, especially on music, use all of what it says. A band can be Hardcore/metal and Rap (Rapcore) but if you just put Hardcore or metal, what is that saying? Finally, Like I said before, I could care less what genre they see themselves as. I am not trying to keep "Screamo" or "Emo" or whatever up there. As you can tell, I've changed it quite a bit, you are the only one who wants a single genre to be up there and stay up there. Please do not see this as me bashing you, and again (repeating myself, aren't I?) I mean no offense. But when the hundreds of people who view this page see the label as "post-hardcore" and expect "post-hardcore," they look down a bit on Wikipedia as a whole. It's like looking at the Ghandi page saying he wasn't a vegetarian, when it's clear he was. Anyways, the genres on the page now are there as is until someone can find a source saying they are another genre, chaged genre, or whatever. IronCrow 02:46, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Punknews.org is user-submitted articles, so until you find a reliable source, it's staying as post-hardcore. My tone of writing has nothing to do with this talk page, stop making irrelevant comments because I could really care less if I sound like a child and by saying so, you are clearly trying to provoke me. If you read the page, my source is their band bio, not Punknews. Their page bio doesn't state that they are emo, it states they are a band in the post-hardcore scene. It states that "fans of emo are drawn to...", not that they are an emo band. It also states that metal fans are drawn to their music, but they are quite far from. ~Ambrosia- ^talk 22:37, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

You just gave me... nevermind. Provoke you? To do what? Make an edit? Silly. Their website says they are into the post-hardcore scene, and the emo scene (when it says groups are drawn to it, it generally means a scene, ie., Norma Jean draws into the hardcore punk scene when it is Metalcore, a fusion of Hardcore punk and extremem metal)... By definition these guys aren't post-hardcore, really at all. They sound like a cookie-cutter screamo band (give me some screamo bands that don't sound like them). Oh well, I don't even know why I am arguing over a page that doesn't even meet Wikipedia notability guidlines (All we have here is myspace, purevolume, their website, and a couple of sentences). By the way, keep the deletion tag up until an administrator decides it's good enough to stay. The article has nothing and notability hasn't been seen. Unless you can improve the article with multiple sources or reasosn that it should be up there, the tag should stay for 5 days. Remember you MUST DISCUSS before taking the tag down, that is, you cannot take it down until it has been decided. " You may remove this message if you improve the article or otherwise object to its deletion for any reason. To avoid confusion, it helps to explain why you object to the deletion, either in the edit summary or on the talk page." By the way, it is being discussed here for why/why not: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Alesana IronCrow 01:27, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Knock yourself out. So, I'm guessing we should add heavy metal to their genre, as well. lolz. International tour dates can be found at [15]. As well, they are on Fearless Records, a large indie label that has been around for 10+ years and has had notable acts such as the Aquabats and Plain White T's. ~Ambrosia- ^talk 03:34, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Heavy Metal... bad example of poor sarcasm (By the way, heavy metal is not metalcore like Killswitch Engage if you have no idea what that is, Stryper is heavy metal. I have to tell you this because you seem to not know genres). This is the dumbest argument over a band's genre I've ever argued about, and I give up. And who cares if their label is notable? Not all the bands signed to Tooth and Nail Records are notable even though their record label is what, 20 years old, have/had many popular bands like Anberlin, Emery, The Juliana Theory Oh well, I wont be the last to argue over this. I still know they are Screamo. Post-hardcore is just absurd to put them under, and anyone who is a fan of post-hardcore have probably already noticed (albeit without care). You apparently have no idea what post-hardcore is. Listen to other post-hardcore bands and you'd see. Have yourself a good time with this one. I'll pull it off my watch list, since your apparently the king/queen of this page. All hail? IronCrow 22:51, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Apologies. Though I still feel as though they are definitly NOT post-hardcore, I seem to have been stonewalling a bit. I'll just say it's non-wikipedia reasons lately. Nevertheless, this is an apology for being rude (correct, in my opinion, but rude). IronCrow 22:05, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Reliable sources are credible published materials with a reliable publication process; their authors are generally regarded as trustworthy, or are authoritative in relation to the subject at hand.

The reliability of a source depends on context; what is reliable in one topic may not be in another. A world-renowned mathematician may not be a reliable source on topics of biology. In general, a topic should use the most reliable sources available to its editors.

Read the guidelines and policies of Wikipedia before you start telling me all this BS. I'm not just pulling this out of my ass. Ambrosia- 14:46, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Just to let everyone know I am related to one of the two founding members of alesana. They came up with the term sweetcore to describe their music. In fact when they released their first album on tragic hero records they had a few hundred alesana shirts made with xoxo sweetcore on the front and a heart with our area code 919 on the back. They also have described themselves as screamo emo and post hardcore as well especially since myspace doesn't allow you to type in SweetCore. ~meckface —Preceding unsigned comment added by Meckface (talk • contribs) 19:07, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Alesana is a screamo band but that is not their genre. Screamo is when everthing is screaming. They have melodic singing and just normal screaming so they would just be considered hardcore. The only people that are probably saying that this is screamo music are the older people because they just mix all the music together that sounds hardcore...get your genres straight people!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Albertmather (talk • contribs) 03:29, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

THEY ARE EMO

LOOK AT THEIR myspace page! there stands: Screamo / Emo! so there are a emocore band! and not post-hardcore! don't think that every emo band are a posthardcore band

That doesn't make them emo. You don't know what emo is. If their myspace said they were country, would you believe that? Besides, the people that run their myspace (That means not them) and the record label prey on "emo" kids that listen to Bullet for my valentine and alesana to make money off of.

Unfortunately, previous poster, the world isn't run by your stereotypes on emos. If they say they are emo, then they ARE emo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.27.97.223 (talk) 05:19, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Listen to orchid (band) and tell me that Alesana is the same genre. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Punkrockrunner (talk • contribs) 00:25, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

ok i do like alesana's music and all,but just cause the band like to say they're emo,doesn't mean they are.they look like emos,but its almost like some 11 year old little girl thinks she's emo because she listens to evanescence and slits her wrists.wannabe.

or some person who dresses like an emo listening to 'emo' pop punk bands and then giving dirty looks to a normal looking kid who doesn't wear girls trousers and considers himself emo listening to sunny day real estate,the get up kids and mineral.the scene kid then calls the normall looking dude a wannabe because he doesn't look emo enough.the scene kid is a POSER.

i don't know WHAT bands influenced alesana but if it was just post hardcore stuff like underoath and the members never even heard of rites of spring,then would they be emo?NO! the members could easily be posers.

sorry

but i'm tryiing too make a point --Nirvanarox55 (talk) 16:37, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry man but emo is just a genre that uses deeply confessional/personal lyrics not wrist slitting kids decked out in black, that's just a fad. Also Alesana call themselves "sweetcore" and it seems like a combination of post-hardcore, screamo, and pop --Duh

SCREAMO/EMO

look at thei MYSPACE PAGE!! www.myspace.com/alesana

It is known that most myspaces of bands are not actually run by the bands themselves so how can you call that a reliable resource? Especially for something like genre. The current genre is a broad genre to explain the music of the band. Whereas screamo/emo is not and causes people to disagree. Angel Of Sadness ^T/C 17:25, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, to be exact, it's not only their myspace that states it, but purevolume as well. To be honest I don't care. BUT They do sound Screamo, not Emo, and definitly NOT Post-Hardcore. Has anyone here ever listen to Post-Hardcore? Wikipedia says this about Screamo: "Characteristic of the genre are "loud-to-soft" (sometimes chaotic) dynamics, harmonized guitars with fast-paced riffs and twinkly melodic breaks, frantic/abrasive shouting or screaming, angry/abstract/introspective lyrics, low-end production, and exceptionally energetic live shows." They aren't emocore, post-hardcore, etc. IronCrow 01:30, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Does Alesana have low-end production? Do they employ abrasive shouting or screaming? (I know they scream, but it is not the same sort of screaming screamo bands employ, and Alesana's screams are not abrasive or harsh) Are their songs chaotic? Not by a long shot. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Punkrockrunner (talk • contribs) 00:29, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

SAETIA,ENVY,TEXTBOOK TRAITORS LA QUIETE those are screamo bands  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.108.131.158 (talk) 20:27, 28 May 2008 (UTC) 

76.108.131.158 - Don't vandalise my userpage again. It may, most likely, result in a ban. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 00:22, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

EMO THE SECOND

MAN!! THIS BAND LOOKS LIKE EMOS AND THEY SOUND REALY LIKE THEM!! ALRIGHT WHY ARE THEY NOT SCREAMO/EMO AND WHY ARE THEY POST-HARDCORE? GIVE ME SOME REASONS!! PLEASE

Since the main editors of the article have left it like this for so long, why should it be changed to suit you? Obviously there is going to be a debate over genre, as there is with every single band listed on wikipedia. With the genre you are mentioning, you are actually pigeon-holing the band. The current genre was decided on probably when the article was made. Better to leave the genre as it is until someone else like a main constuctive contributor of this article decides to voice their views on this matter. Angel Of Sadness ^T/C 17:36, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Alesana are not hardcore punk. ~Ambrosia- ^talk 01:25, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

i think they sounds more like Screamo and on their myspace page is written Screamo / Emo

Once again most MySpaces are not run by the bands themselves and therefore are not reliable sources. If it's on the bands official website (not official myspace), fine.Angel Of Sadness ^T/C 12:45, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Not to mention a statement that starts with "i think..." isn't for Wikipedia. ~Ambrosia- ^talk 04:17, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

"::Alesana are not hardcore punk. ~Ambrosia- ^talk 01:25, 20 July 2007 (UTC) " Emocore evoluted from hardcore.So emocore is not hardcore.But as I can see some people don't understand it... Emocore is part of the post-hardcore scene.So keep this. Today there are maybe no bands that make music that is classified as emo by the old fans...and they call them post-hardcore. As avout the mainstream 'emo' bands - they are alternative. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.87.6.72 (talk) 18:46, August 30, 2007 (UTC)

Ambrosia- For those who keep adding screamo to genre, please read the screamo page.

189.173.57.53 00:12, 18 January 2007 (UTC)can you add the new cover art and the new track listing On Frail Wings of Vanity and Wax?

Ambrosia- 00:36, 26 January 2007 (EST) Done.

Seriously WHAT IN MAN'S SAKE IS UP WITH "YES WIKI" THINKS POST-HARDCORE. ENOUGH! First of all I don't give a care if you name: My Chem, Fall Out Boy or The CUre but how is Post-hardcore considered credible on techni all it fits in cause of less riff or maybe downer sound! Alesana have on there website SCREAMO so THEY ARE SCREAMO cause they say they are SCREAMO yet you argue against the band and yet you guys can't give a single example on Screamo. Kindly I ask what is a screamo band ( you guys must know at least one being so sure)? Alesana wear make up like I dunno other punk bands but maybe thats a emo thing not so called non-conforming. --ForsakenPoppet (talk) 03:23, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

A good example of a screamo band is Saetia. I see references to screamo on the official site, but no actual naming. I don't see how make up fits in with the genretising of a band, but OK. And your argument on credibility makes absolutely no sense. ~Ambrosia- ^talk 21:19, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Screamo is described as "sonic thrash". Does Alesana sound like sonic thrash? Not to me it doesn't. All Music isn't even a decent source. -- FatalError (t|c) 03:16, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Not every band sounds the same, Alesana can be described as several different genres, stop arguing about it, if you suddenly don't like the music just because it's labeled as emo than you just like music because of what's "in" which is pathetic. (90%awesome)

Reviews

The album reviews I have cited are independent, third-party publications by reasonably well-known online webzines. They are media sources of which the band is the primary subject and serve to substantiate the claim to notability per WP:MUSIC bullet 1. I believe that the user is deleting them because the sources do not have their own Wikipedia article; however, if anything, a review site like The Trades is more professional than a review site like punknews.org. These publications are vetted review sites, and I am willing to look at them on a case-by-case basis if there is a serious claim that they are not. Please do so. Chubbles (talk) 16:57, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Regardless many are SPS and therefore fail WP:V. It doesnt matter whether you believe they are 'well known' they must be verfiable. They are being deleted because a) they fail verfiablilty b) it's unecessary to have that many citations and it leads me to believe that they are being added solely for advertising and promoting the websites. The trades is borderline so i will leave it but http://www.saintrocknroll.com/ definetly is SP and fails WP:V. In fact the whole sentence should go as it is pure original research. --neonwhite user page talk 21:59, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

SR&R, I can understand; the site's information about itself is paltry. Noting that an album got mixed reviews is hardly original research. Chubbles (talk) 22:54, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

If there is no source that says it got mixed reviews then it is original research. The fact that the reviews were mixed is an editor's personal point of view not the view of a verified source as required. --neonwhite user page talk 02:24, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

This is a characteristic abuse of the original research policy, indicative of a misunderstanding of the uses of primary and secondary sources. But I'll be damned if it's worth fighting over. I've had enough of this article, already. If it makes you feel better, you may feel free to change the word "mixed" to "several". Chubbles (talk) 03:01, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree with Neon White, and though I admit I was wrong about the genre (It wasn't the vandal that got to me, it was the fact that what I had heard was not the original band. Thank you Project Playlist...). I already tried to state that the band does not meet notability. Though with this statement: "it's unecessary to have that many citations and it leads me to believe that they are being added solely for advertising and promoting the websites" isn't what I see here. I just see people who like the band and want the page up. Not for promotion, but because they like the band. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 00:38, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Not emo

It doesn't matter, what they or they myspace says. To be in genre, you must sound like that genre. They don't have emo nor screamo influences in their music, so they're not emo. Just posers, who don't know what they're talking about. Compare it to Saetia(real screamo) and Torui Okada(real emo) - not very smiliar. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.35.181.172 (talk) 11:33, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

It only matters what a source says. Not ones own opinion.13Tawaazun14 (talk) 06:00, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

How about screamo? See [[16]].72.81.227.98 (talk) 19:50, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

That's not really a good source to cite for Alesana's genre. Screamo is such a small and obscure movement that most mainstream sites and magazines don't really have credibility talking about it. Allmusic even says that Senses Fail is screamo! Even more, they don't list screamo as one of Pg. 99's genres. A credible authority who is recognized to be knowledgeable in the field would be someone like fourfa. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Punkrockrunner (talk • contribs) 00:34, 30 July 2008 (UTC) Alesana Rocks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.152.139.183 (talk) 00:45, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

i honestly think that almost everyone 0n wikipedias life seems to revolve around sources.if some site said sir walter raleigh liked looking at gay porn and was the first man on the moon,would you believe that and then say its a 'reliable source',therefore put it on the page. ???? --Nirvanarox55 (talk) 16:46, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Emo or not emo?

Here is something I have realized. Many people that like alesana, but also have a bias against emos will fight to the death to call Alesana "not emo", even though the music of Alesana is obviously, EMOtional hardcore. It displays ALL characteristics of EMOtional hardcore, does it not?

Just because you hate emos, but you like Alesana does not mean that they are NOT emo. Same goes vice versa. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.27.97.223 (talk) 05:23, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Quit removing the Emo and Screamo Genres

Alesana is Emo and Screamo. For one, many sources, including their own myspace page state that they are emo. Not only that, but the songs by Alesana:

-Display way too much emo themes to not be called "Emo", lyric wise and sound-wise -Their songs are technically "Emotional hardcore" -Their songs contain the eerie elements of Screamo, (such as "The Last Three Letters, and in other songs where it is quite obvious that they scream like in the song Pathetic, Ordinary)

Just because you have a bias against the emo or screamo genre does NOT mean that the bands you like are NOT emo, or screamo.

If you are going to remove the genres, please put in a valid point for doing so here, or just don't do it at all. Thegoldbar (talk) 04:32, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Here's a good one, WP:OR per no WP:SOURCES--Kmaster (talk) 04:53, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

They're emo!! Look at their Fucking emotional lyrics and the fact that they play hardcore music! From "The Last Three Letters": "I never knew silence could cut so deep,or could twist the blade"..This sentence is pretty Emo!!

just because a band sings 'deeply' about a blade,it does not make them emo.HIM sing along the lines of that-they are not emo(despite what other labellers and stereotypers think). the lyrics of real emo bands(Mineral would be a good example),are NOT about razorblades and shit.--Nirvanarox55 (talk) 14:21, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

• First of all, I have no bias against either genre (although screamo, and any form of punk is annoying TO ME).

Saying that you are emo on myspace doesn't mean anything. My bands profile says Bluegrass and Electro-acoustic, we're a post-hardcore band.Emo is the farthest thing from "Hardcore". Emo doesn't sing completely of pain and heartbreak and loss of a lover. Look at Cap'n Jazz (a true emo band) lyrics and tell me those are the same. Emo is often clean guitars, cleans vocals, and I don't think I've ever heard double bass, gutter vocals or anything along those lines in an emotional-hardcore song. Alesana isn't screamo either. A band that uses death chords, fries, and gutter vocals, isn't neccasarily screamo. In fact, the only screams I ever hear in screamo bands are fry screams (where you can hear their voice still). Circle Takes the Square, that's a screamo band. Cap'n Jazz, Frodus, High and Driving, and Sunny Day Real Estate (argueably) are all emo bands. Please understand this, I'm sick of hearing people say "Alesana is sooooooo emo"-Me

Besides, Shawn Milke says himself on an interview by Shout! that, "[Laughs] I don’t get it when kids call us screamo, or emo or anything else. It’s just to pigeonhole bands and we don’t like it when they do it to us."-Me

On Wikipedia, we cite what is said in the article to reliable sources rather than deciding for ourselves what is right. --Kmaster (talk) 00:27, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

p.s. thank you for hearing me out and keeping the genre as is —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.222.143.99 (talk) 05:32, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Alesana's line up

I read in a blog today that Huck (Adam) left the band today, Shane is back and the touring guy is playing rythm guitar in Hucks place so I just added that on... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.222.136.205 (talk) 00:44, 5 November 2008 (UTC) They're eMo!!!whether you like it or not!!-Rott3nEmoFreak —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.94.8.209 (talk) 16:27, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

no, but it seems you rrrrrreeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaalllllllllyyyyyyyyyy want them to be, "Rott3nEmoFreak" XD —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.222.143.99 (talk) 05:19, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

emo

They are not emo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They are just to heavy. I mean I understand Screamo but emo..........COME ON!!!!! I also want to know what sweetcore is. Also they are not pop-punk, thats just stupid, they don't sound like itJakeellsonator (talk) 01:52, 20 December 2008 (UTC) sweetcore is just a name they gave themselves as a joke. Like saosin called themselves saocore.

And I don't understand any of that pop punk stuff,

I think they're turning metalcore now. or trying —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.222.234.25 (talk) 19:10, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

I just want to knw why one of the members think they are pop-punk. They are post-hardcore and screamo but they aren't emo. People say they're lyrics ar emotional, but how are they wen their about greek mythology most of the time. But i know people think they're just cause they look like it. Real emo bands are like Aiden, My Chemical Romance,Alkaline Trio, an Matchbook Romance. Does Alesana sond like any of those bands98.226.79.244 (talk) 21:04, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

alright a short lesson in musical education since most of you people seem to have very little idea what you are talking about.

From punk rock in the mid-late 70s, emerged hardcore punk in the 80's. These 2nd generation bands listened to the first generation of punk bands, and stripped that down to the bare essence of punk rock (for lack of a better way to word that.) Generally 3 chords, and very fast, with shouted vocals. As this genre evolved and matured, it branched out into several genres, including post-hardcore and emotional hardcore.

Post-hardcore emphasised the raw, aggressive feeling of hardcore punk, and added more intensity and raw emotion, therefore consistently fast-paced drum beats, more distortion on the guitars, and the occasional breakdown. With almost entirely screamed vocals.

Emotional hardcore brought out the more melodic side out of hardcore punk, focusing more on musicianship, but especially on raw emotion. [And just to clear up any confusion, emocore is not a valid descriptive term, because that would be emotional hardcore punk with hardcore punk attributes (as anything with -core on the end derives strongly from hardCORE punk. hardcore, -CORE, got it?). Emo is just a quick way of saying Emotional Hardcore (Punk). none of the above are seperate terms.] As a result, emotional hardcore had sortof a softer, warmer, and often a sadder feel to it, as opposed to post-hardcore: not soft at all. Featuring vocals almost always sang, with occasional screaming as the genre matured.

(now just so you can make a quick comparison between the 2, ill give you the names of one of the most well known bands from these genres. Alkaline Trio representing Emotional Hardcore. Note the very punk sound to it. Blindside representing Post-hardcore. Note the very HARDCORE punk feel to it. Also note that Alesana does not resemble either of these 2 bands very closely, nor does it match the descriptions of any of the above genres as i summarized them (or as described on their respective wikipedia pages, or as known as common knowledge among members of the punk/hardcore community!))

Hardcore Punk and Post-Hardcore have continued on, and out of them and due to fusions including them, many new genres have sprung up, most prominently anything with -core on the end.

Emotional Hardcore itself continued to mature, and out of it, several distinct musical genres have emerged (go figure). Including such styles as Emotronic (Emo fused with electronica), and Screamo.

Screamo brought Emotional hardcore back to its more hardcore feel. With prominent screaming, fast, aggresive drum beats, and the like. But it also kept the emotional feel of emotional hardcore. So soft, yet aggresive at the same tiem. therefore its sortof as if hardcore punk and emotional hardcore sortof just wrapped in on itself. with screaming. This is sortof how you describe Alesana.AKStraightedge (talk) 08:13, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

"AKStraightedge", you fucked up your history right when you started describing post hardcore and emotive hardcore. Post-hardcore is an umbrealla term, much like post-punk is. Post-hardcore can describe emo, powerviolence, noise rock, ect. Emo can refer to hardcore punk that has a few experimental qualities, or it can be a form of indie rock that draws influence from the emotive hardcore subgenre. Screamo, was an offshoot that took influence from crust punk and grindcore, bands like the Locust, In/Humanity, Orchid, and Circle Takes the Square are considered screamo bands. Alesana has no similarities to any of those. Alesana has more of a resemblance to melodic metalcore than any other genre.

Metalcore

 I strongly believe that Alesana, especially in the new album
is metalcore, or one of those genres based off it like mathcore (I do not get all of my information from wikipedia).

Melodic Metalcore and Alesana -Cleans vocals: Shawn and Huck sing in every single song, Dennis speaks, Kit Walters and Melissa Milke offer guest vocals on CDs. -Break downs (Ambrosia, Pathetic Ordinary, Alchemy Sounded Good at the Time, Tilting the Hour Glass, Obsession is Such an Ugly Word, etc., etc.) -Dual guitars (pretty much everything on Where Myth Fades to Legend) -Double bass -screams from Shawn, Dennis, Shane, and Huck

what do you think?

I agree. Alesana is definitely not screamo. Unfortunately, AllMusic, which is useful for some things, but often an abortion when it comes to many genre classifications, claims that they're screamo. The only way to explain this claim is that the media thinks anything with screaming is now screamo.It irks me. Also, sign your comments, please. (Albert Mond (talk) 01:36, 5 April 2009 (UTC))

What came into your minds to label alesana as Metalcore? Those breakdowns you say in songs like Ambrosia ain't Metalcore breakdowns,. Heavy guitar riffs aint found in alesana dudes. keep that in mind. alesana's absolutely not METALCORE nor METAL —Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.206.159.237 (talk) 14:23, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Not metal

I know there is a lot of controversy about this band being screamo or post hardcore or whatever, but I can assure you all 1 very clear thing, this band is not metalcore or deathcore or another genre of metal, and if you dont want to believe me, hear some real metalcore bands, even the same wikipedia can help you, they are nothing like this, and the one who edited the page putting as reference this http://www.a-pathetic.net/zine/archives/550 to say its metalcore, i just want to say something, i read the whole article and it doesnt say a single thing about it, so please, fight all you want about if it is post hardcore or screamo, but never say this is metal please, and to cut all the trouble you should just put the genre that the band itself say they are and period, but well that's just an advice... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.208.60.26 (talk) 02:51, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Metalcore is later hardcore punk mixed introduced to heavier metal, and "melodic metalcore" is a later version of THAT. and that reference was to show that even Shawn Milke agrees that emo and screamo are terms too much early and do not describe Alesana

Its obviosly some hardcore stuff, and yeah, on that article may say they dont describe themeselves as scremo or emo, but that doesnt mean they are melodic metalcore, to be melodic metalcore they should have some metal part, and they doesnt have that...

how is there no metal in alesana??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.222.159.236 (talk) 22:42, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Obviosly you need to get to know more metal/metalcore bands to know the difference, again, the same wikipedia could help you...

Here's what 'the same wikipedia' has to say about metalcore: "In the late 1990s, a third wave of metalcore groups appeared, who placed significantly greater emphasis on melody. Such bands as Bullet For My Valentine, As I Lay Dying, Avenged Sevenfold,Still Remains, Eighteen Visions, Killswitch Engage, All That Remains, Darkest Hour, Poison the Well, Trivium, Underoath[33] and Atreyu[34] are the most commercially successful practitioners of metalcore.[35] These groups took major influence, cues, and writing styles from melodic death metal bands, particularly In Flames and At the Gates.[33][34] Melodic metalcore frequently makes use of clean vocals,[36][37][38] and is significantly less dissonant than other metalcore."

Can you honestly say Alesana doesn't fit in with those bands?

and also... "Charectaristics Instrumentation: Metalcore bands generally feature two electric guitarists who often play fast riffs with dual leads. Bassists usually follow the rhythm guitar.[citation needed] The drummer usually performs using double-kick or double-bass drums."

The entire Where Myth Fades to Legend album is practically filled with dual guitars, from the first 5 seconds, the third guitar and bass are constantly in synch with power chords and notes on the bass, Jeremy uses a double kick pedal frequently

"Vocals Vocals in metalcore are often screamed or shouted. Growling vocals became common among many 1990s metalcore groups.[citation needed] Melodic metalcore groups combine these with clean vocals." Okay, screams, mostly death and false chords are contributed from Dennis, Shawn, Adam, Shane, Patrick, and Jeremy. Shawn sings in every single song, with Adam harmonizing. In some songs Dennis talks, or uses "clean vocals". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.222.159.236 (talk) 21:38, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

So, you're saying that just because it haves clean voices and dual guitars is metalcore? dont be stupid please...

Really? You're going to call me stupid because you think I don't know anything about the genre metalcore? Grow up, and listen to some bands similar to Alesana, they're all melodic metalcore too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.222.159.236 (talk) 00:26, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

I dunno what are you saying when you say bands like alesana, because it could be more hardcore stuff, so im just gonna compare them to a band I know its melodic metalcore, bullet for my valentine is a good metalcore band and its nothing like alesana, the growls/screams are nothing like the type alesana uses, and the instrumental sound too you know? and im tired that since metalcore existed its an excuse for bands like alesana to say they're metal when they are not, and I just put for example bullet for saying one band, if you compare alesana to other metalcore bands like haste the day, trivium, sonic syndicate, etc you can see they are also nothing like alesana (sorry if my english isnt perfect)

You have a point, and i've heard more metalcore music lately and realized my claim could be pretty ridiculous, I won't change it back. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.222.237.56 (talk) 19:37, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

In my opinion Alesana's definitely far from Metalcore. No metal stuff at all. I know it's hard to distinguish metal from other rock but try to listen more carefully, metal's dizzing to the ear. And I hear no breakdowns.

Third album

To whoever said this, "Later in February Shawn Milke says Alesana is starting to write a new material for their upcoming album. During their tour, Alesana stated they will be recording their next album over several weeks in Portland, Oregon."...

Source??!?

) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.222.159.236 (talk) 10:40, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

End

You have no reason to add "emo" and "screamo" to this list. If you go read wikipedia's own definitions of the terms and listen to notable emo and screamo artists, you would understand why those genres keep getting removed. 1. Lyrical content does not define a genre. 2. Alesana do not "scream" in the same way that gave original screamo bands their title. Alesana use several types of vocalizations including fry screams, false chords, and death chords. 3. The bands myspace page doesn't count as a notable source, they could say that they are Hawaiian Pop and NOT be Hawaiian Pop. 4. Both of those genres are subgenres of HARDCORE PUNK. Alesana is not, and lacks the elements of hardcore punk.

Notable (Real) Emo Bands: Cap'n Jazz Rites of Spring Mineral Heroine

Notable (Real) Screamo Bands: Sleepytime Trio City of Caterpillar Circle Takes the Square Pg. 99

Unreleased 2003- Discography

Why is this even here if Alesana formed in 2004, it's unsourced and doesn't make any sense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.222.130.20 (talk) 00:06, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

The band formed before moving here. There is actually quite a bit more to the full story. And the recordings from Baltimore are around. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Meckface (talk • contribs) 19:53, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Is youtube a reliable source?

Even if it shows Shawn telling the audience when the album will be released? I've been removing those additions, but I don't know if I need to. 30daysinAK (talk) 20:41, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

post-hardcore vs screamo

reliable sources have not been cited verifying alesana as post-hardcore or screamo. so until more reliable sources can be found, such as sites that dont just lump slightly similar bands all into the same genre, stop changing the genre description

it seems to me that people in general discuss alesana as being screamo.

and music critics throw it under "alternative" and occasionally post hardcore

compare alesana to bands such as blindside. an indisputably post-hardcore band. and note the differences.

music critics tend to be relatively uninformed about the music theyre critiquing.

due to the constant bickering on this bands page, and music pages in general. wikipedia itself is an unreliable source. so dont bring other wiki pages into this discussion.

alesanas music has clear roots in emotional hardcore. not so much in the more hardcore/metallic sound of typical post hardcore. that said, they started out as a thrash metal band, and changed their sound to get signed.

due to my musical expertise. i classify alesana as screamo. discuss. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.58.228.65 (talk) 22:05, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

• First of all, the only sound Alesana had when they were first signed to Tragic Hero was Try This With Your Eyes Closed, and that sound has prevailed throughout their CDs, I really hope thrash metal was a joke.
  *How can you say they have roots in emotional hardcore, Shawn and Patrick used to be in a pop punk band, but pop punk ≠ emotional hardcore(..and thrash metal CERTAINLY ≠ emotinal hardcore).
  
• Musical expertise?
  

(and if you want to compare bands, [which is based on opinion and won't help anyone here], listen to City of Caterpillar, a screamo band, or Rites of Spring, an emo band.) 30daysinAK (talk) 01:28, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Given that 80% of the drivel on this talk page is anonymous editors shrieking about genres, I guess I could write this anywhere...but consider this notice on the talk page. Screamo is back, with damned good sources. Sorry, purists. Chubbles (talk) 04:17, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Oh, lawdy. No, AllMusic is not considered a "damned good source," genre-wise on Wiki (or in general). As for the second one, I'm not 100% positive that Alternative Press is considered a reliable source. Anyway, it's touring information, and mentions "screamo" once. That's nothing. I have a Rolling Stone album review that calls Grand Funk Railroad punk rock. (Albert Mond (talk) 09:28, 9 November 2009 (UTC))

...And if we can't take Rolling Stone's word, whose word do you propose we take? No doubt they are using the word "punk" in the sense Lenny Kaye did before 1977, but I'm not really interested in starting a big original research project on it. The "pop" thing was added by another editor, and is taking Allmusic's "genre" designation too literally - that's an umbrella categorization term in their schema; what we on wikipedia refer to as "genre" they refer to as "style". Of course, that's probably a much better way of parsing the issue, but longstanding precedent on this site is to chop things up into micro-subgenres/styles and call them "genre", and who am I to spit into the wind? In any case, Allmusic has published several books on music and their online wing is an extension of that project; AP is the leading print magazine covering the whole emo/post-hardcore/screamo/metalcore/scene thing. That may make you (or us) unhappy, but it doesn't change the fact that, simply by being the ones offering the most coverage, that their voices are the loudest in determining how the band will be identified. (Natch, the loudest would be the message boards...but I don't want to go there any more than anyone else does.) Chubbles (talk) 14:22, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't recall having mentioned pop. What's more, I'm quite familiar with AllMusic's genre/style thing, and how that works, and I've actually had to point out the way it works to other Wiki editors in the not-too-distant-past. What I was saying is that AllMusic doesn't have the highest standing on Wiki, specifically when a genre it lists is being debated, or at least this has been my past experience with it. I agree with the 'punk' usage thing, though some bands within the old scope are still considered punk, or at least -retroactively- "proto-punk." Rolling Stone's site also says that Hilary Duff was featured on a Flower Kings album. I suppose you have a point on AllMusic's being particularly active, though that in itself does not lend credability to everything AllMusic says. Genre wise, I'd like to point out that metalcore has little or no direct relation to the other three genres you listed (all of which are forms of post-hardcore). Anyway, that's all I've got for the moment. (Albert Mond (talk) 11:35, 11 November 2009 (UTC))

I've long thought that we should list no genre, or progressively less specific genre, when genres are the subject of contention, but I can't get a single editor to agree with that, much less a consensus. I understand what you're against, but I'm not sure what you're for...how do you want the page to read? Chubbles (talk) 14:30, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, I don't agree with that, either. But I'm sure there's probably somebody somewhere. The page? Save for the genre tags, I've not read the page. Essentially, I've only really bothered to listen to enough Alesana to know that I don't consider them screamo. I do think melodic metalcore might be appropriate (at least for some of their material), and that "post-hardcore" could really be enough, if we couldn't reach a consensus on anything else. (Albert Mond (talk) 12:22, 12 November 2009 (UTC))

Wait, am I really arguing with another editor who is asserting that his personal opinion is more important than that of third-party reviewers? Chubbles (talk) 12:34, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

If I really bothered, I could probably find a reliable source which explicitly says they aren't actually screamo. I have no plans on doing that, however. What's more, I haven't looked at the sources as of yet. Occasionally, these things are sourced by articles that don't so much as mention the genre in question (I've seen it before), though I doubt this is the case here. I'm also fairly positive that I could find an reliable source calling Bullet For My Valentine screamo, which they very clearly aren't, and I'd like to point out that many reviewers from otherwise 'reliable' sources are clearly and absolutely clueless about this genre, not that I can blame them.(Albert Mond (talk) 19:15, 15 November 2009 (UTC))

Just as an example, I read an article (used as a source for an article) which mentions "screamo metal," a genre which doesn't exist, and a use of words which implies that the author was ignorant of even the existence of the post-hardcore and emo genres which screamo is, in reality, a part of. (Albert Mond (talk) 19:14, 15 November 2009 (UTC))

alesana was thrash metal before they were signed, according to a former band member. so no. no joke. unless you have extensive experience with pre-signed alesana, dont refer to other users comments as a "joke" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.58.237.139 (talk) 11:50, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Albert Mond, if you can find a reliable source that calls them metalcore, put it up, but screamo is staying. And to whoever asserts that Alesana is "thrash metal" 1. Who is this former member? and why should anyone believe that he has actually told you that the band was once thrash metal? 2. Do they have any recorded music that could be classified as "thrash metal"? 3. Do you have a source that says Alesana was once thrash metal? --30daysinAK (talk) 22:45, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Why so intent on keeping the screamo tag? Do you have any reason to believe that they're descended from more traditional screamo and emo, as opposed to simply being post-hardcore in the vein of Finch's more successful material? Anyway, I found a source from a group I've seen used before for the 'metalcore' claim. I don't consider this a top-notch reliable source, but it works. Feel free to challenge it, though. (Albert Mond (talk) 19:27, 15 November 2009 (UTC))

Honestly, seeing screamo used as one of Alesana's genre makes me cringe (so does emo, and I hope that doesn't get on here) after listening to real screamo like Sleepytime and CityofCaterpillar for so long, but

1. When you think about, this whole scene has a lot of traits that could make it "post-screamo", and 2. There are wayy to many sites calling Alesana screamo. I put up metalcore a few months ago, and it got challenged alot. good luck though, haha --30daysinAK (talk) 00:52, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

New section for genres

Since the last is getting rather unwieldy...Since all of the style designations are contentious, all need to be sourced. I don't think there is an issue with the reliability of Allmusic, but since two editors have contested it I haven't restored it. However, that leaves us with the post-hardcore designation unsourced. It must be before it is restored. Chubbles (talk) 20:49, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't think there's any argument about whether or not this group is post-hardcore, which is the reason it was previously unsourced. Check out Black Sabbath's article. One genre, no source. The same goes for tons of articles. When everyone agrees on a genre (and I'm assuming we can all agree on post-hardcore), there is, as far as I've seen, no actual need for a specific reference. But, I suppose since you've already added that, it can't hurt. (Albert Mond (talk) 00:22, 16 November 2009 (UTC))

lol I already found a source for post-hardcore, but I don't konw exactly how notable punknews is so i'm glad you said that

--30daysinAK (talk) 00:47, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

The trouble, of course, is that no one can agree on anything. Post-hardcore is an umbrella term, a notoriously mealy-mouthed and vague generalization, and like most post-s, it's a place for bands to scurry when they don't like whatever the press calls them (post-disco, post-punk, post-grunge, and so forth). I'd like to think we could all agree on Alesana being a rock band, and I'd like to think that would be uncontroversial enough a designation to add. But I know better than to put it there without a source, because if one of the regulars doesn't remove it, an anon will in a day or two. And so the circle goes 'round... Chubbles (talk) 01:15, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

And while we're all at it, we might as well have a good laugh at this: [17] Chubbles (talk) 01:18, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Good point on the umbrella term thing. It does seem like any post-hardcore thing which may not seem to be a distinct form (mathcore, emo, screamo, whatever else) gets lumped simply into 'post-hardcore.' We could all agree on Alesana being a rock band, however that wouldn't be specific enough at all. And, yes. That pretty much sums up Wiki. (Albert Mond (talk) 02:11, 16 November 2009 (UTC))

Okay, so why are we treating Punknews.org as a more reliable source than Allmusic? That makes no sense to me. Chubbles (talk) 21:16, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Depends on the case. A very notable number of Wiki editors consider AllMusic dubious when it comes to genres, so I guess it's sourced to PunkNews relating to that. (Albert Mond (talk) 21:46, 16 November 2009 (UTC))

Punknews's judgments are more reliable? It's basically a message board with reviews. Chubbles (talk) 21:51, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

I didn't actually say they were more reliable. I suppose they aren't, if you're correct. I do recall someone removed the AllMusic source from 'screamo,' so if we're determined to use a 'reliable' source other than that, this might work. (Albert Mond (talk) 22:33, 16 November 2009 (UTC))

Vandalism

There's a whole lot of it on this page lately. Semi-protect time? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 30daysinAK (talk • contribs) 22:46, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

It's not the most ever. But yeah. That'd be convenient. (Albert Mond (talk) 02:58, 25 January 2010 (UTC))

Straight Post-Hardcore

Alesana are not emo, screamo or metalcore, or anything else. They are just post-hardcore, but with many screams and emotional. They might have influences but that doesn't make them an another genre. Look at the albums' genres, if you can't estimate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.138.61.216 (talk) 14:03, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree, but the problem here is that reliable sources (reliable is a relative term) have called them these things, and it seems like Wiki's policies would make improving the accuracy here difficult. (Albert Mond (talk) 14:21, 26 March 2010 (UTC))

First of all, if you listened to some screamo music from the last 20 years up to now, you coudn't deny that screamo has altleast a small say in the "scenecore" genre, whatever you call it.

Secondly, it's not for us mere mortals to decide what Wikipedia classifies as. Only a Reliable Source can decide that. 30daysinAKK (talk) 17:47, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Speaking of metalcore, there's a user here who created a very unreliable source which is actually a BLOG on a magazine just to justify that this band is Metalcore. He keeps insisting that the band is playing on the genre. Speaking that Alesana is metalcore is absolutely ridiculous. And he also found a very unknown source as referrence to his argument. All I say is you can label Alesana as Post-Hardcore, Emo, Screamo or whatever you want it but not Metalcore. It's retarded (Darksluke23 (talk) 17:42, 13 April 2010 (UTC))

Most screamo fans I know would think labeling them as screamo is retarded. The "blog" source for metalcore is a journalistic one, unlike source no. 6 (utilized as a source for 'screamo'). (Albert Mond (talk) 10:17, 13 April 2010 (UTC))

That journalistic one you say is still very unreliable. I think we can be fair if we label this band as Post-Hardcore alone not with these Emo, Screamo stuff and esp. METALCORE. Since Alesana has also stated not to label them as those Emo, Screamo stuff on an interview which I forgot its link. --Darksluke23 (talk) 15:03, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

The source for metalcore that I included yesterday is reliable, i'm reverting it.

Those sites for post-hardcore aren't all that reliable either: the punknews review was written by someone who just created a profile on the website, and freebase copies the Wiki article.

Shawn's also said in interviews that post-hardcore is too old to describe Alesana, but i'm pretty sure it really doesn't matter what the band thinks they are. 65daysofstatic is called post-rock all the time, but they absolutely hate that title. --30daysinAKK (talk) 20:38, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

People, all I can say is Alesana is absolutely not metalcore. Yeah, alesana has plenty of screams and growls at times but the instrumental plays more like punk. And metal breakdowns? they don't have these. Or to simply define it, Metalcore is heavy and Alesana isn't.--Darksluke23 (talk) 11:15, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Which is heavier... BFMV's "Tears Don't Fall" or City of Caterpillar's "A Little Change Could go a Long Ways"? I honestly wouldn't even say Alesana's instrumentals are more punk. The music itself feels sort of like pop to me, and could be coming from a pop-punk or glam metal vein. While some metalcore bands heavily rely on breakdowns, I don't really think it seems to be a total necessity with the rise of 'melodic metalcore.'(Albert Mond (talk) 12:10, 20 April 2010 (UTC))

I have to say that Alesana has a pretty unique sound and seems to have influences of several influences and if you go to 3:15 and listen to it for a minute it shows you just how much variation they have, also emo has personal and confessional lyrics while the majority of Alesana's songs are allusitory (I don't think that's a word) in nature. (owndizzler)

I've edited the references in the genre section so that only the reliable sources (+ one i'm not too sure about) remain. Peace Treaty between metalcore, post-hardcore, y screamo? 30daysinAKK (talk) 21:32, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm a little late here, but screamo is a legetimate genre that Alesana does not fall into. In all actuality, there is very little screaming in the screamo genre. The Used is a.. Well, it's a poor example, but it's closer to screamo then most of the bands people know.

Also, Alesana is not emo. It is post-hardcore, with a touch of metalcore and pop-rock. Said so in an interview on youtube, and interviews don't lie >:l okay sometimes. I'm not gonna cite it, because I'm too lazy. Jazar94 (talk) 15:32, 3 March 2011 (UTC)