Talk:Afghan peace process

Negotiations/Peace process

Besides meeting on February 25, 2019, nothing happened, that we can label as 'Afghan peace process' or 'Negotiations between the Taliban and the United States'. There is still war waging across Afghanistan, the Taliban is still attacking Afghan security forces. It's better to rename it as a page that overviews meeting on February 25, 2019 in Qatar. MarcusTraianus (talk) 19:56, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

Correct translation check?

From the article

The Taliban (Pashto: طالبان‬, romanized: ṭālibān, lit. 'Demanders'),

My understanding is that طالبان‬ is often translated as students or cadets, not demanders (q.v. Taliban) Rendall (talk) 22:13, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

Excuse me if I cant format this properly.

The root of Taliban is from Talb ( تطلب or ), Which translates to Want or need. Talib ( طالب ) referred to "One who wants", Taliban is a plural of that.

The reason Taliban is often Translated as "Students' is because its commonly used as a abbreviation of " Talib-ilm ( طالب علم )" ( One who wants knowledge ), "ilm" meaning knowledge. However from the beginning the Taliban have portrayed themselves as "Taliban - Islam". It was politically expedient for the regime In Pakistan to label them as Taliban-ilm and abbreviate their Origin a Students.

Yes its the word Taliban is often refered to students. But strictly in literal terms, for it to be Students It must be Talib-e-Ilm ( Or Plural Taliban-e-ilm ). The Afghan Taliban have always been Taliban-e-Islam.

Etymology in the actual Taliban article is sort of correct but it doesn't take into account the actual word طالب instead emphasizes on it being a plural.

• • • • — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FEA8:1E00:E5F:4841:44F7:ECCF:42BE (talk) 15:04, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

I see the argument you're making but do you have sources that provide this information? Every source I have seen translates Taliban as students. --Cerebellum (talk) 02:24, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

I am trying to locate an article where the Taliban have refered to themselves as Taliban, But it seems its been a while since they have done so. Nowadays they refer to themselves as Islamic Emirate Of Afghanistan. I expect to find something from mid to late 90s. might take a couple of days.

Thank you for that explanation!

Rendall (talk) 06:01, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Date format

Why does this article use the US date format (January 1, 2001)? Shouldn't it be uniform with the rest of Wikipedia (1 January 2001)? I'm a bit confused as the Wuhan Coronavirus articles all use the latter, without commas. And doesn't "By 17 December that year" breach even this article's consistency?--Adûnâi (talk) 02:45, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

I'd say you're right, it should be changed. --Cerebellum (talk) 02:25, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Taliban reportedly has “no intention” of honoring the U.S.-Taliban peace agreement, add?

The Taliban reportedly has “no intention” of honoring the U.S.-Taliban peace agreement, according to “persuasive intelligence” gathered by the U.S. Official briefed on the intelligence say the Taliban views the peace process as a way of securing the withdrawal of American “occupiers,” after which it will attack the U.S.-backed government in Afghanistan. Trump also acknowledged that the Taliban could “possibly” overrun the Afghan government after U.S. leaves the region, saying “Countries have to take care of themselves […] You can only hold someone’s hand for so long.” American troops, meanwhile, have started leaving Afghanistan.

• U.S. has persuasive intel Taliban do not intend to abide by terms of peace deal, officials say; "They have no intention of abiding by their agreement," one official said. Trump said Friday, "Countries have to take care of themselves." March 6, 2020
• US begins troop withdrawal from Afghanistan, official says March 9, 2020

X1\ (talk) 07:58, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

Negotiations section naming format

Previously the two sub-sections in the Negotiations section was called "Obama administration" and "Trump administration" respectively. I have changed these to years "2007-2016" and "Since 2017". The reason is because the Afghan peace process is a multi-party topic, so by naming it as US presidential administrations makes it seem too US-centric. In fact many of the paragraphs are about internal Afghan talks (without American involvement) so it wouldn't be entirely appropriate to name them under US administrations. --Weaveravel (talk) 16:15, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Merging/redirect to War in Afghanistan (2001-2021)

I now strongly support removing this article altogether. I helped significantly expand this article in 2020, while peace negotiations were still ongoing. However, the article has now become a lost cause, because:

• Doha Agreement (2020) has since been created, which takes a lot of the content on this article.
• All of the content here on this article already fits into either the Doha Agreement or the War in Afghanistan (2001-2021) article. There is already much "peace negotiations" content on the War article.
• The war has effectively ended in August 2021 and this "peace process" is void, which only makes it a footnote now and hence wouldn't require an article of itself. It is now effectively just a small "component" of the history of the 2001-2021 War. The Doha Agreement was the only official pact during this "peace process" and that already has an article of its own.
  • Hence it leaves little room for this article to be notable enough to exist on its own.

--WR 16:23, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

@Weaveravel: might a redirect to Doha Agreement (2020) be better, in the sense of more specific? Klbrain (talk) 19:03, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

@Klbrain: Yes, that would be a good choice. Are you in favor of moving it to that? As there are no objections, a move should be done by a third party. --WR 12:26, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes, still in favor of that merge to the alternative target (Doha Agreement (2020)). Klbrain (talk) 09:31, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

I was going to invite a third party but am going to be WP:BOLD instead and re-do the redirect. This is after discovering that the person who reverted the redirect previously is now blocked for disruptive editing, hence I see no genuinity in it. --WR 14:49, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Oppose redirect. Sorry, but peace processes are distinct sociological phenomena from, even though overlapping with, wars. The pre-redirect version from 02:44, 3 July 2022 is not great quality, but it does include sections Early outlook (2007–2010), Exploratory meetings and peace jirga (2010–2016), Afghanistan–Gulbuddin deal (2016), Afghan peace movement, which are not just the Doha Agreement. It's also not so clear that the Doha Agreement was really a peace deal, even though it did involve many of the usual elements, including negotiations and confidence building, so the Doha Agreement does count as one component of the overall peace process. So US–Taliban deal can validly be a sub-article of this overview article.

The war has effectively ended in August 2021 and this "peace process" is void: Wikipedia is not a news ticker. Whatever the quality and validity of the peace processes involved, the processes, as studied by peace and conflict studies researchers, are not a subset of the processes as seen from a military viewpoint. Sociological processes are not just about "results". The "results" are generally a product of years of people, groups of people and institutions organising, setting up rules, modifying and proposing norms and rules, re-organising personal networks and relationships and agreements and taking related actions. These processes are what Afghan peace process should cover. For example, the United States Institute of Peace is not perfectly neutral (given its funding), but it is a research institute which has published at least some material on this topic that is notable beyond the Doha Agreement itself. Boud (talk) 02:57, 13 July 2022 (UTC) The current state of the USIP Afghanistan peace efforts page states "But even after the collapse of the Islamic Republic and the re-establishment of the Islamic Emirate, peacebuilding efforts remain critical in Afghanistan. ... decades-long, elusive effort to achieve peace and stability ... Our goal is to encourage efforts to help Afghans establish inclusive political structures that bring an end to over four decades of violent conflict, ... Achieving a stable peace ... A sustainable peace will need to address ...". So reliable sources about peace processes say that there is not yet peace in Afghanistan and the processes for building that peace are still ongoing. These are researchers, not journalists, so their POV takes precedence over mainstream media headlines. Boud (talk) 03:36, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

I think the mistake here was redirecting it to Doha Agreement (2020) as was requested by User:Klbrain - when I previously redirected it I did it to War in Afghanistan (2001-2021) which was more plausible as the article isn't just about that agreement.

Anyway, there's a couple of things to take note here though. I've kept close watch to this topic and performed a major change in the War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) article when I completely rewrote the History section in 2021 to improve the quality to the standards found in Vietnam War. At the time the Afghanistan's History section was completely overloaded with subsections for each year and it was a mess. In doing so, I also decided to bring the key events from the peace process into this History section.

I don't think you've noticed then that there are many duplicates now. There is already a subsection named "Peace negotiations" that deals with the late 2000s time and another "Peace overtures (2018–2020)". My point is, almost all of this peace process article is already covered in either the War in Afghanistan article or the Doha Agreement. It's therefore why I believe this article fails WP:NOTABILITY to be its own article in this state. It doesn't have enough original content to be its own independent article. Also a side note that there exists an article named History of the War in Afghanistan (2001–2021), and any trivial details that remain here can simply be moved over there. --WR 11:32, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

There are many notable elements of the many decades of the peace process missing from US–Taliban deal and War in Afghanistan (2001–2021). I've restructured this article with a lot of this missing sourced information, aiming at minimising the redundancy with US–Taliban deal and War in Afghanistan (2001–2021), and I extended the scope to start from 1978, since there's not much point restricting the war to only the post-US invasion period. There's in fact a lot of material in the sources that I didn't use - I only included what seemed to me to be summaries of key points. Please double check and fix any errors. We still cover very little about the individual elements of the process, such as the APRP (which could potentially be split off). Boud (talk) 02:34, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

• Opposed per @Boud: 103.141.159.230 (talk) 07:39, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

TODO list

Currently missing or incomplete articles on specific structures of the Afghan peace process include:

• National Reconciliation – needs expansion (and possibly could be renamed to reduce ambiguity) – how many positive and negative effects resulted? the article currently says very little about what internal Afghan factors (national level, local level) and international level (US pumping arms to the Mujahideen) factors contributed to the negative and positive results; having a wider variety of good sources would help the article too;
• Afghanistan Peace and Reintegration Program – a more complete standalone article would use more sources and integrate the different points of views from different scholars and institutions about the APRP: what was it formally defined as? what did it turn out to be in practice? what are the different analyses claiming that is was successful or unsuccessful? in what sense did it claim to include or really include in practice different elements of peace mechanisms? the UNDP reference includes the budget, which could be mentioned;
• Action Plan for Peace, Reconciliation and Justice – was published by the AIHRC, with international support, and based on a survey of Afghans' views on transitional justice – what were the main elements of the action plan? what attempts were made to try to implement it? why did they fail? who/what people and groups and processes blocked the implementation?

After developing these articles, it should be possible to update the brief summaries of this article. Boud (talk) 21:52, 17 July 2022 (UTC)