Talk:4th "Ali Demi" Battalion

A prominent historian Lampros Baltsiotis says

https://harriman.columbia.edu/files/harriman/content/Historical%20Dialogue%20on%20Cham%20Issues%20April%202014%20ISHR.pdf

That the numbers are just fiction.

He says: "This is also true for a part of the left wing discourse in Greece in regards to what actually happened there. The rational of this story is based on the existence of the 4th battalion of the 15th regiment of ELAS, which was named “Turco-Albanian partisans.”22 In fact many of the soldiers of this “mixed” as it was called battalion were Christians23 and some Muslims were not originating from Greece but from the Muslim Cham villages of Albania and other areas.24 Furthermore, it must be emphasized that this battalion was active for a very limited period and undertook part only in a couple of skirmishes.25 These tactics are aiming to weaken the “collaboration stigma.” "

So this article is about to weaken the "collaboration stigma" and nothing more. L. Baltsiotis in Greece is consider as Chams supporter from right parties in Greece.

--Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 16:43, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Your source does not cite a battalion called Ali Demi. Why is this added to this article then. Add something that at least uses the term Ali Demi as the article is about Ali Demi. Otherwise its wp:synthesis.Resnjari (talk) 16:59, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

I have all the sources from the regiments of ELAS, Ali Demi regiment had many names. The number name 4/15, the "Toyrkalvanoi" name, the name of the hero of Cham of Albania "Ali Demi". Plese read more carefully.--Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 18:14, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Also the first two lines of this article says for years 'The 4th "Ali Demi" Battalion (Albanian: Batallioni IV "Ali Demi", Greek: Δ' Τάγμα "Αλή Ντέμη") was a battalion under the 15th Regiment of Greek People's Liberation Army, founded during the Second World War.' and i am accused for synthesis!! --Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 18:44, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

I'm looking at page 5, i still see no Ali Demi battalion there.Resnjari (talk) 18:52, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Maybe you should read the first line of the article of wikipedia 4th "Ali Demi" Battalion. When your read this one line, tell me.--Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 19:03, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

I looked at the Baltsiotis source (and as much respect i have for Lambros) it does not mention a "Ali Demi" battalion. At the very least if it mentioned the battalion by name then we have a starting point to the conversation. Please consult the wikipedia policy on wp:synthesis.Resnjari (talk) 16:00, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

here is Balkans, and this is not a simple thing. We must prove again and again that the earth is not flat. Please sir, read http://www.albanianhistory.net/1946_Cham-Albanians/index.html The documents of Chams of 1946 'Chameria threw itself unreservedly into the war against the occupier, and formed the Fourth Battalion of the 15th Regiment of ELAS. ' What else do you want? --Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 19:21, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Please tell me when i can stop. http://www.cameriainstitute.org/Newsletter/5English_opt_opt.pdf n March of this year was also created the Greek-Albanian First mixed Formation. In Spring 1944, in Qeramica was also createdthe `Ali DEMI` IV batalion where there were more than 500 Cham fighters. This batalion entered inthe composition of XV Regiment of EAM (Greek National LiberationArmy). From Chams of Diaspora.

You want more? If you want please tell me. If you want ten more, i will give ten sources. --Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 19:35, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

ok i think i put enough to prove earth is not flat. So ali demi battalion is 4/15 of elas. Do you agree? If you want more, please tell me when to stop--Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 06:13, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

What's not stated in the article is that those few Cham units were former auxiliaries of the occupation Axis authorities.Alexikoua (talk) 11:19, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

Also there were 20 Chams members of Elas in 1943, that deserted and join afterwards axis forces. --Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 13:57, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

In regards to the Cham Institute source that is all interesting for a general read however its a newspaper published by the institute and it is not a peer reviewed publication. So use in wikipedia would not suffice.Resnjari (talk) 16:00, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Of course! We must welcome the opinions of every part according to WP rules and not try to find excuses to forbid what we dont like. Its high importance to add the Chams organisations presprective for 4/15 batallion of ELAS.--Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 17:52, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Philosofer of EAM Dimitris Glinos about Chams in 1942. In the famous political manifesto What is the National Liberation Front, and what does it want

https://www.imerodromos.gr/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/glinos_eam.pdf pages 22-23. In Greek. --Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 14:04, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

outrageous claim

'At the end of 1943, a group of Cham Albanians, led by Ali Demi, attacked a German garrison, in Vlora, Albania, killing 39 German troops[citation needed] and losing 12 members of the battalion, including Ali Demi himself.[5]'

It was a common practise for every guerilla army in every war, to exaggerate about the numbers of the enemy losses. Please provide something more accurate, as possimple from German archives (it is known that Germans had a bureaucratic system). This is what we do in Greek Wikipedia or else we dont provide numbers. Please check just the numbers. Please notice that most of the battles are consider major victories for guerilla army. (For the losses we dont write articles :D). It is somehow 1:1 even in victories.

H.F.Meyer is the best source if he has wrote something. --Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 14:55, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Concerns re recent additions

@Αντικαθεστωτικός, Resnjari, and Alexikoua: While any attempt to improve the article with content additions is welcome, they need to keep balance as advised by WP:NPOV. The article should not look like it wants to persuade readers that Albanian communities were all Nazi collaborators. There is some work by Baltsiotis that elaborates on why a wider Cham-Greek collaboration was impossible. The text should be worked out here before it is added to the article. Ktrimi991 (talk) 15:28, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

the truth is not a neutral situation. In Greece many Greek leftists wrote articles to defend Cham of Greece. Noone of them could find something of them that was Chams of Greece against NAZI. This is the truth. Revert as many times you like, but you cant change the facts. I already write in Greek, because i understand that the situation here is very emotional and i respect it, so i dont want to feel that i insult anyone. Translate this article. It is from a well known Greek leftist anti-nationalist journalist, that he defend for decades all the minorities of Greece. Maybe he is well known in Albania. He didnt find anything about antifascist Chams of Greece. He says 20 Chams of Greece that took part in 1943 (he forgot to mention that they deserted to join in NAZI militia) And then he says that few Chams of Greece took part in 4/15 http://www.efsyn.gr/arthro/mia-anepithymiti-meionotita

--Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 15:48, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Those few Cham Albanians that were enlinsted in the 15th regiment were former auxiliary units under the command of M. and N. Dino per this source [[1]]. I wonder what's the disagreement about this cited addition. Reverting without stating what's the disagreement isn't a sound approach.Alexikoua (talk) 15:54, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

@Αντικαθεστωτικός, Resnjari, and Ktrimi991: I'm afraid that tag-team reverting isn't a constructive approach. Yet no excuse is presented for the removal of cited information.Alexikoua (talk) 16:17, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Its diappointing that you refer to such commentary. Wikipedia allows the option of having a watchlist and this article is on my watchlist. Take a breather, discuss the issue, as its what were here for in the wikicommunity.Resnjari (talk) 17:28, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Resnjari Ok but what is the excuse now to forbid these sources? Because i dont understand. Lambros Baltsiotis is most prominent scientist. Gotovos is a unirvesity academic. Why do you forbid the sources from university professors? It is very weird situation that opinions of academics are forbid in Wikipedia and the same moment you leave the opinions of a hoax maker like arben Llalla a self proclaimed "history professor"--Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 17:37, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Yes indeed and neither mention a "Ali Demi" battalion as the name of this page in. I looked and looked in both sources. Nowhere, not one mention of a Ali Demi unless i overlooked something. On the other article i have that open now and am addressing it.Resnjari (talk) 18:09, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Do not make assumptions about other editiors. Content disputes should be solved with good faith rather than personal attacks. The sentence on the claim re Albanian writers, it should be written sth like Many of the soldiers were Christians or Chams from Albania, and, according to Lambros Baltsiotis, there was a tactic of weakening the “collaboration stigma" from many Albanian writers. It is one writer criticizing many other writers. On the other sentence, what is the connection of the 15th regiment with this article? Ktrimi991 (talk) 18:13, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

On the claim re Albanian writers, it should be sth like According to Lambros Baltsiotis, there was a tactic of weakening the “collaboration stigma" from many Albanian writers. The communities to which the members of the battalion belonged are mentioned earlier on the article. Ktrimi991 (talk) 18:22, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

I'm still waiting for an explanation why Gotovos is not acceptable. Take your time. For future reference the Ali Demi battalion was part of the 15th regiment of ELAS and fits perfectly in this article.Alexikoua (talk) 18:39, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

I see Resnjari taught you a new expression today but do not use it where there is no room for its usage. Respond to my posts above or we are not going to discuss this content dispute any longer. Ktrimi991 (talk) 18:46, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

The Ali Dino battalion was part of the 15th regiment of ELAS as I've said and it's cited. Removing vital information such as this one can be easily considered as disruption. It would be usefull to read the article before jumping in and blindly reverting.Alexikoua (talk) 18:54, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

What does that edit summary mean "ignoring tolling comment"? What is "tolling"? Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:00, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

I've fully addressed your concerns about the 15t regiment where this battalion belonged. If there is something useful to ask then go on. Alexikoua (talk) 19:07, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Lets take the issues one by one. On the wording of the sentence re Albanian writers, do you agree with me? Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:12, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

It's a case of one author saying something about other authors. I'm ok with your wording.Alexikoua (talk) 19:22, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

I read Gotovos nowhere in the article does it say Ali Demi battalion. This article is titled Ali Demi battalion after all. Once again wp:synthesis.Resnjari (talk) 19:32, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

The Ali Demi battalion was part of the 15th regiment and Gotovos states that those Albanians enlisted in the 15th regiment were auxiliaries of the Dino brothers. I may understand that some editors may have difficulties to understand this fact but its not about synthesis.Alexikoua (talk) 21:25, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Hmmm clearly it is not a case of WP:SYNTHESIS. The scholar confirms that the Albanians of the regiment, belonged to Dino. My apologies if I missed something that could somehow turn it into SYNTH? --👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{(talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 21:52, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

From the context a typical reader can understand that a regiment is a wider unit which includes smaller ones: battalions etc. even the full name of this battalion was "15/4 Ali Demi", and 15 comes from the number of the regiment.Alexikoua (talk) 22:00, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

And it says Ali Demi where ?Resnjari (talk) 22:16, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Gotovos doesn't make exceptions for the 15th regiment. If this is battalion was in the 15th regiment then the information fits here.Alexikoua (talk) 22:27, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Well your basically saying that editors take your word for it that is it and yet Gotovos has no mention of the words Ali Demi battalion. Looks like wp:synthesis here more than anything else. The source should at least mention the battalion once by name in the article. Otherwise it becomes a situation of anything goes.Resnjari (talk) 23:34, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

A battalion is part of a regiment: it's clearly wp:OBVIOUS (no wonder the example here refers to a similar situation).Alexikoua (talk) 00:01, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

What is not obvious is that the source in question refers to Ali Demi. Your source makes no mention of such a battalion name, not once. Note the pagename of the article is 4th Ali Demi Battalion not some other waffle.Resnjari (talk) 00:14, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

The source refers to the unit that Ali Demi belonged i.e. fully relevant here and the thos "few Cham Albanians enlisted in this regiment were former auxillaries of M&N Dino". Quite easy to understand an obvious fact for a typical reader. wp:IDONTLIKE it is quite a disruptive pattern not to mention that wp:OBVIOUS states exactly that there is no need for the precise word i.e. an inteligent reader can see that this is quite a usefull piece of info. Alexikoua (talk) 06:43, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Why do you insist on Pelasgians to not add content because it is not very related with the topic, while here you insist to add content of the same nature? You can not have your cake and eat it. Re the 15 regiment, the quote (according to Google Translate) is not entirely the same thing as the text you added to the article. The quote says "Muslim Chams" and does not say "for the Axis collaborators". The quote says "previously serving as rebels at the military forces of Mazhur and Nuri Dino". Ktrimi991 (talk) 10:01, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

On Pelasgians? Sorry if this is an offtopic question but can I ask which content are you referring about? --👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{(talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 11:20, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

For some weird reason user Resnjari insists that this is a case of WP:SYNTH. Because of my past experience, I can predict this discussion going on forever and, worst case, without reaching any tangible results. To avoid this, I am suggesting that user Alexikoua initiates a RfC or taking the case to a Noticeboard. A thirt party opinion on wherer this is really a SYNTH, could be very welcome and very helpful. --👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{(talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 11:31, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

I assume that the claim about the Pelasgians simply means that there is no argument against inclusion for this part here. Ktrimi: precise translation is "auxilaries of Mazar and Nuri Dino" not rebels. Yep the specific quote doesn't say they were collaborators, but I can add another detailed quote from the same source.Alexikoua (talk) 12:41, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

No editor here can locate in the source that the source is referring to a Ali Demi battalion. Just find me where it says it and its all over and done with. Otherwise it is wp:synthesis with editors claiming something about a source when the source itself does not even name the very topic with editors just guessing that it might.Resnjari (talk) 14:07, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Everything that affected the men of the battalions (i.e. this article) of the 15th regiment can be added. The fact the this was a mixed battalion makes this piece of information vital for the reader per wp:OBVIOUS. No reason to hide the background of the Cham Albanians that enlisted in the battalions of the 15th regiment, Ali Demi included.Alexikoua (talk) 16:17, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

The source does not say Ali Demi Battalion. Your saying that it is this battalion yet the source does not name this battalion. Its wp:synthesis with a smack of wp:OR. I read the Greek source in full (some 3 times now to make sure i did not miss anything), no where was there a Ali Demi battalion cited.Resnjari (talk) 16:38, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

@Alexikoua Google Translate says "rebels". You can not use another quote to prove that "Nazi collaborators" belongs to that sentence. That Dino brothers were Nazi collaborators is obvious, but whether the Albanians of the 15th regiment helped them due to being Nazi collaborators or not can not be decided based on other sentences. That would be taking the entire stuff out of context. Re Pelasgians, there you said that sth not entirely related with the subject of the article should not be mentioned on the article. Why do not you want the same practice for this article? Work it out with Resnjari as you are messing everything. I am for adding content not entirely related to both articles. If you and Resnjari decide the otherwise, I will respect your agreement. Ktrimi991 (talk) 16:42, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

The formal name of the batallion was 4/15 not 'Ali Demi' batallion. In Greek sources i cant find anything about 'Ali Demi' Battalion, perhaps it was a name for Chams only. Ι cant understand what is the conflict again. --Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 17:10, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Is there some source out there that states the name of the battalion was officially known like this but it was also known like this etc? So like this its sourced and then avoids wp:synthesis and wp:OR problems and then sources with either name would be appropriate for usage provided they are credible scholarship.Resnjari (talk) 17:55, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

"επίστρατοι" [[2]] can be also translated as "reservists". As I see there is enough info which describes collaborator activity by the Dinos by Gotovos (not to mention also Kretsi & Manta): in p. 7, 9 and 28 (perpetrating massacres together with the 1st_Mountain_Division_(Wehrmacht)) and massacres of Albanians in Kosnipol area under a battalion named "Nuri Dino battalion"). Mazar was executed by the PRA inside Albania and Nuri fled to Turkey (p. 35). It's actually the epitomy of wp:OBVIOUS, essential info about the background of the men of this units.Alexikoua (talk) 20:20, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

That's a lot you got there to unpack there Alexikoua. You only placed a link to a google translation of a word in Greek. That still does nothing for your case. Your source in Gotovos does not say Ali Demi battalion and that word play there about this that or the other is once again wp:synthesis and with some wp:OR. At least offer links, page numbers etc so other editors know what your referring to. After all the article is about a battalion named Ali Demi. The sources should at least very least cite that. And as i said earlier if indeed this battalion is known by another name have a source that states this i.e so and so battalion/regiment/unit etc was called this and it was also known as this. Then other sources like Gotovos would make sense to use.Resnjari (talk) 20:50, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Actually that's quite a clear case of wp:OBVIOUS. Everything that affected the battalions of the 15th regiment is important for this article. An intelligent reader can understand that a regiment is a wider unit which includes battalions, i.e. for example Ali Demi belonged to the 15th rg.. No wonder the quote has been verbally taken from Gotovos since there is no need to rephrase the meaning.Alexikoua (talk) 22:22, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Nope, that wording you want to use has no basis. You can not take three of four different sentences of probably different contexts and mix them to produce a sentence for the article. You can not add bombastic words such as "Nazi" wherever you wish. Why are not you responding to my question re Pelasgians? Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:38, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

I fail to see the word "Nazi" in my addition, "collaborator" has another meaning (as Calthinus taught you in the past) and the case of Dinos collaboration is cited. You are welcome to participate in Pelasgians.Alexikoua (talk) 22:55, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

"Nazi" and "Axis collaborator" used with no reason are the same thing. Not sure what you mean with "as Calthinus taught you in the past" but I guess it is another case of you recycling other peoples' words. As you do insist on your own wording, without even trying to seek compromise, I am not going to continue this discussion. The matter for me is closed, you can seek solutions using options like RfC, third opinion and so on. Ktrimi991 (talk) 23:04, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Do not confuse different terms Nazi and Axis collaborator are clearly different (to bad you ignore what Calthinus told you about the Zervas case). The Dinos were "Axis collaborators" it's cited by multiple sources. Moreover, the Cham men of this battalion were reservists (reservists are not rebels by the way, which you also confuse).Alexikoua (talk) 23:46, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Please stick to the topic. As you don't even even try to achieve bipartisanship on wording etc let alone address concerns expressed by editors in a constructive way, i agree with @Ktrimi991 that in the end that this discussion is pointless. The Rfc etc are other avenues for you to pursue.Resnjari (talk) 00:38, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

The 15th regiment IS the topic of this article since this battalion belonged there. The fact that some of the men of this battalion were former collaborators is fully sourced and per wp:OBVIOUS should be part of the background section.Alexikoua (talk) 08:19, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

And where do your sources say Ali Demi battalion? Please point out the page, i read Greek.Resnjari (talk) 16:51, 7 November 2018 (UTC)