Talk:4 Park Avenue

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 22:15, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

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4 Park Avenue, formerly the Vanderbilt Hotel

• ... that in 1922, the Vanderbilt Hotel was the subject of the first skywriting advertisement in the US? Source: National Business Aircraft Association (1946). Skyways for Business. Vol. 5. American Aviation Publications. p. 85.
  • ALT1: ... that in 1922, the Vanderbilt Hotel received 47,000 phone calls in three hours after a skywriter spelled out its phone number over Times Square? Source: "Repeats His 'Sky Writing'; Flier Again Attracts Crowds by "Smoke Casting" From Plane". The New York Times. November 30, 1922.
  • ALT2: ... that Alfred Gwynne Vanderbilt, developer of the Vanderbilt Hotel, had a two-story penthouse apartment there, which he occupied for only three years? Source: Gray, Christopher (March 9, 2003). "Streetscapes/The Former Vanderbilt Hotel, 34th Street and Park Avenue; It Was a Showcase for Terra Cotta. Much Remains". The New York Times.
  • ALT3: ... that Alfred Gwynne Vanderbilt had a two-story penthouse apartment atop his Vanderbilt Hotel, but he only lived there for three years? Source: Gray, Christopher (March 9, 2003). "Streetscapes/The Former Vanderbilt Hotel, 34th Street and Park Avenue; It Was a Showcase for Terra Cotta. Much Remains". The New York Times.
  • ALT4: ... that though the Vanderbilt Hotel had New York City's first women-only bar, it was converted to a men's bar after two weeks? Source: "Women Lose Hotel Bar; Didn't Patronize Dainty Oriental Room, So Mere Man Falls Heir to It". The New York Times.
  • ALT5: ... that a women-only bar at the Vanderbilt Hotel was converted to a men's bar after two weeks because few women used it? Source: "Women Lose Hotel Bar; Didn't Patronize Dainty Oriental Room, So Mere Man Falls Heir to It". The New York Times.
  • ALT6: ... that the basement of 4 Park Avenue once had a "vast double-height grotto of ceramic art", most of which is now a parking garage? Source: Gray, Christopher (April 4, 1993). "Streetscapes: The Della Robbia Bar; Does a Far-From-Pristine Remnant Rate Protection?". The New York Times.
  • ALT7: ... that the basement of 4 Park Avenue once had a "vast double-height grotto of ceramic art", less than one-fifth of which still exists? Source: Gray, Christopher (April 4, 1993). "Streetscapes: The Della Robbia Bar; Does a Far-From-Pristine Remnant Rate Protection?". The New York Times.
  • ALT8: ... that during a renovation of 4 Park Avenue, workers found a sealed room with women's clothes and shoes, which was not in the building's blueprints? Source: "Sealed Hotel Room Mystifies Builder; Crew Finds A Mystery". The New York Times. September 24, 1967.
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/KGTK

Created by Epicgenius (talk). Self-nominated at 13:35, 3 May 2022 (UTC).

• The article is new enough, long enough, referenced, neutral and no copyvio obvious. The hooks are sourced and interesting. AGF the offline source used in ALT0. All images used in the article are free. Just waiting for QPQ and other possible hooks. Corachow (talk) 20:15, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
  • @Corachow: Thanks for the review. I have done a QPQ and added two other hooks. Epicgenius (talk) 13:16, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
    • Good to go. Corachow (talk) 14:48, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:4 Park Avenue/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Mike Christie (talk · contribs) 13:03, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

I'll review this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:03, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Images are appropriately tagged; sources are reliable.

• "an ice machine capable of generating up to 80 short tons (71 long tons; 73 t)": needs a time period to be meaningful: per day? Per year?
• "Each salon had a reproduction of a classical oil painting": the salons are part of the guest rooms?
• "An electric bell in each room allowed patrons to call for room service when they did not want to be disturbed": I don't follow. If they don't want to be disturbed, why are they calling room service?
• You mention Caruso as a patron twice.

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:02, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Epicgenius, just checking you haven't forgotten about this one (and also 2 Park Avenue). Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:16, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Oops, sorry about that. Thanks for reviewing both of these. I actually addressed these issues but just forgot to respond:

• The 80 short tons is the maximum amount that can be produced at one time.

  The problem is that an amount of production doesn't mean anything without a time period; "at one time" doesn't really help, since the only thing I think that can mean is one day, and that's implausible (it would require producing almost a litre of ice per second). 80 short tons of water or ice is a cube about 14 feet on a side, so it might mean that the capacity of the machine was that big -- I could imagine that the ice machines had that much water storage capacity. Capacity makes sense without a time period, whereas production doesn't. Does that seem to be what the sources are saying? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:00, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

  Indeed, the sources say capacity (and this is what I was thinking of when I made that comment). I meant to say that the ice machine could produce and hold up to 80 tons at once (i.e. capacity), rather than produce up to 80 tons at any given moment (which would be quite impressive but far too large for a building of this size). Epicgenius (talk) 13:26, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

• The salons aren't part of the guest rooms, so I rephrased this.

  OK. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:00, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

• The electric bells were for patrons who didn't want to leave their rooms to get room service.

  "patrons who didn't want to leave their rooms" is even clearer than what you have in the article; how about using that wording? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:00, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

  Done. Epicgenius (talk) 13:26, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

• I do acknowledge that I mention Caruso as a patron twice (which is why I did not link his name the second time around). However, his name was mentioned the second time because "Caruso's death" is mentioned in the very next sentence. I have now removed the second mention.

  Looks like it's still there? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:00, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

  Oops, forgot to do that. Done now. Epicgenius (talk) 13:26, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

– Epicgenius (talk) 12:39, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Replies above. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:00, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Pass. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:58, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Spotchecks

Epicgenius, I found one issue in doing follow up spotchecks after the GA:

• FN 11 cites "Even before the renumbering, the Vanderbilt Hotel had marketed itself as being at "East 34th Street and Park Avenue" despite technically being on Fourth Avenue." The sentence before says "The segment from 32nd to 34th Streets, outside the current building, was renamed Park Avenue in 1923, at which time the building gained its current address of 4 Park Avenue." FN 11 seems to say that the renaming was in 1924 ("the Park Avenue name...has been in use for the last year" and a reference to "last year's action" of renaming) but also refers to a change back from "Park Avenue" to "Fourth Avenue". The vote is "subject to the Mayor's approval" -- I guess if the Mayor did not approve it then it never happened, so that would be OK.

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:49, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for following up Mike Christie. It seems that 1924 is indeed the correct date (December 1, 1924, to be precise). I've fixed it now with a source. – Epicgenius (talk) 13:32, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

That does address it, but don't we also need to do something about the statement in the new source that the name change was "declared illegal" and the headline that the judge "Orders Former Status"? With the comment in FN 11 that there was a vote to reverse it, and no source saying whether the mayor approved that vote, it's not clear whether the timeline given in the article for the name change is fully accurate. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:42, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

The situation is explained in more detail in Park Avenue#Later years. Basically, the Board of Aldermen reversed the vote, but the mayor vetoed this reversal. Eventually, the New York Court of Appeals, the highest-level court in New York state, voted to uphold the Park Avenue name in 1928 (after it had already been changed back in 1927 by a ruling from the New York Supreme Court). The controversy didn't really subside until 1930, but it did not matter much anyway, as the building was most often known as the Vanderbilt Hotel during this time. It wasn't until the 1960s that the "4 Park Avenue"/"6 Park Avenue" names came into wide usage. – Epicgenius (talk) 13:59, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Interesting; thanks for the explanation. Looks like the article is fine now; thanks. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:49, 7 October 2022 (UTC)