Talk:2025 FIFA Club World Cup

First edition

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

According to FIFA, this will be the first edition of a new tournament titled Mundial de Clubes FIFA. The FIFA World Cub was discontinued. Danoniinho (talk) 11:52, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

@Danoniinho Please cite those sources, since that's in direct contradiction of what's cited in the article. —C.Fred (talk) 11:55, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Here: https://www.fifa.com/fifaplus/en/tournaments/mens/mundial-de-clubes/usa-2025/articles/mundial-de-clubes-25-teams-dates-venue-groups-draw-matches-tickets

"New tournament will be played for the first time in 2025"

"FIFA's new prime club competition - Mundial de Clubes FIFA™ - will..." Danoniinho (talk) 12:05, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Maybe eventually the new name will catch on but for now, the CWC is still commonly used: "Juventus advances to 2025 Club World Cup from Italy after Napoli eliminated from Champions League".[1] BLAIXX 00:58, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

but despite this, FIFA says it is a new tournament, and not the 21st edition of the current tournament Danoniinho (talk) 21:11, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia considers more than just the primary source for content decisions. See WP:SECONDARY and WP:COMMONNAME for more info. BLAIXX 03:03, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Maybe not the best reference, but this is the official handle of Gianni Infantino,

https://www.instagram.com/p/C5gWehcoYg6/?img_index=1

"The new Mundial de Clubes FIFA, to be hosted by the 🇺🇸 United States in 2025, is already promising to be a historic tournament"

The quote in the post. As you scroll through, it is the first edition, and a new trophy will be announced. 103.129.206.241 (talk) 10:05, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

It is definitely the first edition of a new tournament. I don't know why they are trying to postpone something that is already certain to happen.

All FIFA news articles corroborate this.

https://www.fifa.com/fifaplus/en/tournaments/mens/mundial-de-clubes/usa-2025/articles/race-mundial-de-clubes-fifa-qualification-heats-up-around-globe Danoniinho (talk) 22:41, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

It's FIFA being FIFA, that is, ambiguous. On the Lusophone Wikipedia (and only there), a separate article pt:Mundial de Clubes FIFA has already been created. I think we should wait for an official position from the FIFA regarding this matter, which will consequently lead the football world (sports media, etc.) to treat the competition as either a different championship from the FIFA Club World Cup initiated in 2000, or as its mere continuation. Now, I think we should follow Wikipedia's recommendations [[[WP:SECONDARY]] and WP:COMMONNAME. Note that in the general media, the competition continues to be treated as the first edition of the expanded tournament, which suggests that there have been previous editions of the FIFA Club World Cup, but this is the first time the tournament has been expanded to include more clubs. XICO (talk) 18:12, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

FIFA isn't ambiguous. It. has time and again, in multipole statements as stated above as clearly called it a new competition with a new trophy, and not a continuation of the previous competition.

Also fifa is starting another new competition, the FIFA Intercontinental Cup, with a format similar to the old FIFA World Cup.

PLEASE CALL THIS A NEW COMPETITION NOW! 103.174.35.205 (talk) 07:03, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Please read Wikipedia:Official names, it has some information that will explain why this page hasn't been moved. In short, the official name is not always the Wikipedia title. BLAIXX 14:16, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Sorry it is wrong here. I am not going to give more sources examples, because there are many here already. But the point is that FIFA (the official entity that organizes the tournament) said that is the 1st edition of this tournament!

FIFA also named this tournament Mundial de Clubes FIFA differently from the old FIFA Club World Cup (from 2000 to 2023) that now changed its name to FIFA Intercontinental Cup.

Finally, talking about secondary sources and common name, there are many general media sources treating it as a NEW FIFA tournament. So keep the way it is right now is completely wrong! Fa30sp (talk) 14:00, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

The first edition under a new-expanded format. FIFA can change the trophy. Who cares? The tournament is the same. Island92 (talk) 17:34, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

The new tournament FIFA Intercontinental Cup is not connected to FIFA Club World Cup at all. Go here, click on Tournaments and you read FIFA Club World Cup 2025. Island92 (talk) 17:43, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

I think you didn't read anything. Read the information above that our mates posted with all links related and you will see that it is not just a "new-expanded format", it is a new tournament called Mundial de Clubes FIFA! Portuguese Wikipedia already adopted the correct definition as you can see here [2].

Everyone, who knows football a little bit, cares about it. The FIFA Intercontinental Cup, as you said, is a new tournament of course, but a continuation of the old FIFA Club World Cup. Also, the old FIFA Club World Cup is a continuation of the Intercontinental Cup and you can see it in the List of world champion football clubs.

I know that is kind of hard to understand, but I believe in you bro, I believe you are capable to do it! Fa30sp (talk) 18:13, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Your edit is a major change. You need consensus first. Please do not revert. Island92 (talk) 18:17, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

In any case, please wait further information, at least for the time being. Island92 (talk) 18:20, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Whether it is a new tournament or not, the English speaking FIFA website lists it as the FIFA Club World Cup 2025. So on the English speaking Wikipedia, it should be listed as that. The first edition topic has still not gathered a consensus. Until then, no mass edits should be happening. Chris1834 Talk 19:07, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

I completely understand that "1st edition" topic has still not gathered a consensus.

But I think my opinion or anyone else's opinion here doesn't matter, when we have FIFA and FIFA's president calling the tournament the NEW Mundial de Clubes FIFA on their official Instagrams, which is in English, as everyone can see here: https://www.instagram.com/p/C54MHGoIXDC/ Fa30sp (talk) 15:15, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

That is 8 weeks old. There entire website called it that originally on the English site. But as of June 1st, they have changed their entire site to reflect the FIFA Club World Cup 2025 name, as can be seen by all the updated links in the article. I was actually all for changing the article to the Mundial name and thought it should be changed but that was before they seemed to have reverted to the common English name officially. Chris1834 Talk 17:27, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

This is a perfect example of why the Wikipedia article title policies are the way they are. I hope this will be a good learning experience for those involved in the discussion! BLAIXX 17:56, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Bro the discussion is taking a different direction.

First of all, I just used that post from 8 weeks ago as an example. Let me give another one... June 2nd the last club qualified for Mundial de Clubes FIFA and they called "Mundial de Clubes FIFA" on FIFA and FIFA's president official profiles: https://www.instagram.com/p/C7tMDbYoA9L/

But the point I am discussing is regarding the continuity of a tournament and not the name of the article itself.

I am 100% in favor of keeping the name of the article as it is. If we translate Mundial de Clubes FIFA to English we will have "FIFA Club World Cup".

So what I'm saying is that this is obviously a new tournament, that's why FIFA and its president use the nomenclature NEW to refer to it and the name "FIFA Club World Cup" in another language "Mundial de Clubes FIFA", exactly to differentiate from the old one.

It is very simple to observe this, just see that the new FIFA Intercontinental Cup maintains almost the same format of the old FIFA Club World Cup (2000-23) and is very similar to a super cup (only with the champions of each continent participating)! Fa30sp (talk) 18:24, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Bro, this discussion ended today (on the date that marks exactly 1 year to the start of the tournament) with a post from FIFA and its president, through their official social media, stating:

"One year to go until the FIFA Club World Cup 2025™️! 🤩 32 teams from all six confederations will gather in the United States for the inaugural edition next year" (https://www.instagram.com/p/C8O3bNsKvmV/)

Now, a new discussion opens about the title of this article (which in my opinion should be kept) and the article from the old FIFA Club World Cup (which in my opinion should be changed). But that is another discussion and is more in the sense of a formality. The most important thing is that we now officially have a position from FIFA and its president, confirming that this is the 1st edition of the new FIFA Club World Cup! Fa30sp (talk) 18:52, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

No, and please wait. Something confirmed on instagram is nothing. Island92 (talk) 21:35, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

The first edition under a new-expanded format. That's it. @Chris1834:, @Blaixx:.--Island92 (talk) 21:41, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

You wrong bro, it is officially the first edition, the INAUGURAL edition as its saying and you are fighting against the reality!

First of all, something confirmed on FIFA and FIFA's president official Instagrams is thousand times more valuable than if you wrote a final term on it!

Second, that's not only on Instagram, it is also on FIFA's website: https://www.fifa.com/en/tournaments/mens/club-world-cup/usa-2025/articles/mundial-de-clubes-25-teams-dates-venue-groups-draw-matches-tickets

I will quote just a few examples in this article on FIFA's website to help you:

"Find out all the information on the new club tournament with details of qualified teams, dates, competition format, hosts, tickets and more."

"New tournament will be played for the first time in 2025"

"The first edition of FIFA's new prime club competition will be played in the USA."

Read the article bro, find the true! Fa30sp (talk) 13:23, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

No, the first edition of FIFA's new prime club doesn't mean the first edition at all under the FIFA Club World Cup name. Island92 (talk) 13:44, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Read here. The new-look 32-team tournament is now just one year away means the new tournament under a new expanded-format, not a new tournament from scratch. Island92 (talk) 13:49, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

No bro, it doesn't mean "the new tournament under a new expanded-format".. that's your interpretation on it! It really means new-look 32-team tournament and that's it!

Read the article on their official website and you will see the way FIFA treats it with Q&A and its right here: https://www.fifa.com/en/tournaments/mens/club-world-cup/usa-2025/articles/mundial-de-clubes-25-teams-dates-venue-groups-draw-matches-tickets Fa30sp (talk) 15:24, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

I've read the article multiple times! Your major edit is wrong and you were told not to insist on it because you need consensus first. Issue has been brought to Wiki Project Football talk page for the time being. Please stop edit war. Island92 (talk) 15:44, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Bro my major edit is correct because I'm using FIFA's website as a source, that's just the organization that rules football in the world!

But no, Wikipedia's user Island 92 thinks this is not the 1st edition of the tournament and that FIFA's website is wrong! Because of it I will have to wait for him to consent, and only after that I will be able to edit to correct the article!

Joke of the year hahahahahahahahahahahaha Fa30sp (talk) 16:01, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a place where users should act like children. Island92 (talk) 16:19, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Exactly! Like not replying without adding any content to the debate! Or not undo other users edits that are based on official sources.

But good for you that you accepted FIFA and FIFA's president position about this talk page section debate (here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Football#2025_FIFA_Club_World_Cup) Fa30sp (talk) 16:28, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

No, I did not accept anything. You miss-interpreted it. Island92 (talk) 16:41, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

I just saw it.. so you still wrong and against FIFA and FIFA's president position!

You accept it or not doesn't change the fact hahahahahahahaha Fa30sp (talk) 16:45, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Analyzing FIFA's posts from the last days and also FIFA's website I definitely changed my opinion, since before that I was really undecided about how FIFA was really treating this tournament.

But, at least in my opinion (that's why I'm bringing it up for discussion), now FIFA already decided that 2025 will be the 1st edition of a new FIFA Club World Cup since they are now treating it as "the inaugural champion" and "the inaugural edition".

On FIFA's website: "The inaugural edition of the FIFA Club World Cup will signal the start of a new era in club football history with a brand-new trophy becoming synonymous with the diversity and quality of the global game as club football brings the world together in the United States." [3] Also: "Find out the information on the new club tournament" [4]

On FIFA's Instagram: "...by the inaugural champion" [5]

But, how we will treat the old tournaments?

In my opinion, as FIFA already unified Intercontinental Cup (1960-2004) and FIFA Club World Cup (2000-2023) titles as world champions, also we already correctly treat as a continuation ("It ran from 1960 to 2004, when it was succeeded by the FIFA Club World Championship" - at Intercontinental Cup article) and now we have the new FIFA Intercontinental Cup, with almost the same format, I think the best thing to do is treat the last as a continuation, since all are Super cup like format and different tournaments from this FIFA Club World Cup (2025 onwards). SinisterUnion (talk) 18:08, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Now it doesn't mean anything. We need still to wait. The name FIFA Club World Cup is still there. Island92 (talk) 18:24, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

The name still there and will always be, unless they change it in the future and it doesn't matter at all. This would be the same thing saying Intercontinental Cup (1960-2004) is the same tournament as the new Intercontinental Cup (2024-), what is wrong too.

The fact is the article right now is clearly in disagreement with the highest football authority that treats it as "the inaugural champion" and "the inaugural edition".

Furthermore, it is also against important and renowned non-primary sources that already adapted themselves to FIFA's decision to call it the new FIFA Club World Cup and 2025 as its inaugural edition, as everyone can see here: [6] or [7], for example. SinisterUnion (talk) 03:08, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Can we please stick to having this conversation at WT:FOOTY for now instead of spreading it across multiple pages? Jay eyem (talk) 04:43, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Bringing the discussion to the right place... I will help summarizing the situation here too:

The international governing body of association football (FIFA) says 2025 is the inaugural edition and thats a fact. We can visit the tournament's official website to check, the tournament's guide on FIFA's official website, any article there (like the last one published) or any social media post from FIFA's official profiles (like this for example where it also says inaugural champion in the video).

Also, we have all important non-primary sources saying the same thing. 2025 FIFA Club World Cup is the inaugural edition of a new tournament, the same way FIFA says, as we can see at the last article published by ESPN a couple of days ago, just to give one example as I'm only summarizing here (for more examples read the full discussion, there a lot more there).

So, we have FIFA and all important non-primary sources saying the same thing, but we don't have consensus here. The valid arguments against this are that we should wait longer to see if FIFA will keep it that way.

Now, if we research we do find news from last year that this tournament was already being considered the inaugural one. But, what I really want to highlight here is that at least since June, FIFA has only been saying this tournament is the inaugural one, as we can see here, for example.

So, we already have (at least) 3 months of consolidation here, in my opinion more than enough to make a change. But I hope to hear more people's opinions and I fully respect them, whether they are in favor or against mine, this being my last comment in this discussion. Have a good one.

I applied for a ticket to watch the tournament and when registering my interest on FIFA's website, I came across the following message: "Join us at the first ever FIFA Club World Cup 2025™!" [8]

By the way, while talking to a friend who is a Borussia Dortmund fan, he corrected me when I said that at least since June FIFA has only been treating it as the inaugural edition of its tournament. No. This has been going on since at least March when Borussia Dortmund's participation in the tournament was announced by FIFA: "German team become the latest club to qualify for the first edition of the new global tournament". [9]

Finally, another piece of news published by FIFA on its social media yesterday. They published it on Instagram stories and also on Facebook. [10] Open quotes: "...gave them enough points to qualify for the new tournament in the USA". [11]

Once again, this is in line with what FIFA has been preaching, as I said before, at least since March. So, I can't agree more that it's bizarre not to make a change after almost 6 months of stabilization in the way FIFA treats this tournament, namely, as being the 1st edition. SinisterUnion (talk) 01:10, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

There has been a lengthy discussion of this issue at WT:FOOTY, and the result of this was that the discussion is now closed. No consensus for change was reached, with the view of a majority of editors to wait until much closer to when the tournament begins. The discussion has been closed. Therefore, this does not mean that @SinisterUnion: should resume posting these same arguments trying to enact change back at this talk page. Matilda Maniac (talk) 01:30, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

No. At WT:FOOTY we can clear read: "Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page." This means that I can resume posting the arguments here (actually, the right place to do it) to keep the discussion opened to everyone who wants to join it. Detail, with more and more people arguing in favor to change to 1st edition as we could see there. Let's stay grounded in reality, for the sake of Wikipedia and its reputation. SinisterUnion (talk) 02:19, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

No consensus for change was reached at the discussion on WT:FOOTY, with the view of a majority of editors to wait until much closer to when the tournament begins. This does not mean you can post the same arguments here again and again. You have made your point clearly, in this thread, including the detailed summary you made yesterday. You should now give it a rest for a while, and see whether there is commentary from others. There would be further opportunities to change, and more likelihood of reaching consensus for change, if you wait until much closer to when the tournament begins. Wikipedia's reputation is not suffering from inactivity that you happen to disagree with. Matilda Maniac (talk) 04:53, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

SinisterUnion please stop posting the same sources now here just because the other discussion was closed. No consensus for change. Island92 (talk) 09:10, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 September 2024

On the map, can you add the location for Inter&Co Stadium as well so that users can see where both Orlando stadiums are located? Also alphabetise the locations on the map. HalfOfAnOrange (talk) 16:00, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

I personally don't think that's practical because it would require a hyper-local level of detail. If you take a look at Google Maps (link: [12]), you'll see the two Orlando stadiums are essentially right down the street from each other—I asked it for directions from the Citrus Bowl to the soccer-specific stadium and it shows they're half a mile apart. There's simply no way to render a half-mile distinction in any meaningful way on a map showing the entire 48 contiguous states (as a practical matter, they're in the same place). The map shows where the host cities are. Regarding alphabetizing, I don't object to that idea in principle, although I note the article lists the venues in decreasing order of capacity and the map legend tracks the order they appear in the article, so I'm reluctant to pursue that change—I'd rather leave that issue for others to decide because I don't know whether there's a consensus regarding the order in which venues are listed. Because of that second comment, I haven't tagged the request as "answered." 1995hoo (talk) 16:27, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Not done for now: please submit one edit request for each change you want to be made. Bowler the Carmine | talk 05:03, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Club World Cup roster regulations

Is there a way we can include how the roster regulations will be handled by clubs? The FIFA Council just announced how clubs will be able to submit squad list and deal with contract expirations during the tournament.

Here is the info: https://www.fifa.com/en/news/articles/council-decisions-upcoming-competitions HalfOfAnOrange (talk) 19:35, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 October 2024

Inter Miami did not qualify through winning the Supporters Shield. They qualified just by being a part of the host country. Not related. Cable10291 (talk) 08:52, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Charliehdb (talk) 14:11, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

I think you have a case. FIFA is quite evasive with their wording in their release. BLAIXX 18:37, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 October 2024

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Inter Miami just qualified, we are almost in 2025 (tournament’s year) and FIFA still treating it as the 1st edition, we need to correct this mistake in the article, as we can see:

“Find out more about the Major League Soccer side and how they qualified for the first edition of the global club tournament in 2025.”[13]

“Inter Miami CF have become the penultimate club to seal a spot at the new FIFA Club World Cup 2025™ after winning the 2024 MLS Supporters’ Shield [14]

“FIFA announced today that Inter Miami CF has become the penultimate team to seal a spot at the new FIFA Club World Cup™ after winning the 2024 MLS Supporters’ Shield”[15] TF MxLoko (talk) 15:04, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 October 2024

Re-opening discussion since it was closed with a fake news: “the only sources referring to "1st" here are primary, see previous talk page sections”. However, the truth is that secondary sources were provided too, like Inter Miami website for exemple, and many others that I saw in the discussion already closed before.

Let’s stick to the reality and correct mistakes in this article. TF MxLoko (talk) 01:11, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Recently FIFA posted "being part of the exciting new tournament"[16][17], which, together with the various secondary sources already presented, corroborate the aforementioned edition to correct the article and treat the competition correctly as the 1st edition in 2025. TF MxLoko (talk) 14:31, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Chelsea’s second Champions League triumph would follow some nine years later, when their 1-0 victory over Premier League rivals Manchester City in 2021 sealed qualification for the INAUGURAL FIFA Club World Cup 2025™. FIFA Video ( INAUGURAL CHAMPION) [18]. Join us at the FIRST ever FIFA Club World Cup 2025™ [19]. FIFA Council: "competition’s official name will be Mundial de Clubes FIFA". The FIRST EDITION of which will be played in the United States in 2025. Gianni Infantino: "the FIRST EDITION a great event, a great tournament". [20] It is not the "21st" of the quadrennial world cup.[21][22] The official name Coupe Intercontinentale de la FIFA[23] is the evolution of the tournament created in 2000 (its continuation and replacement, the annual world cup) [24][25] 2804:23D4:C208:2501:AD8C:95DB:F289:2DC3 (talk) 15:37, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 October 2024

I request that Inter Miami be included in a separate table from qualified teams titled "Invited Teams." According to USA Today, Inter Miami's official announcement, and MLS' and FIFA's official announcements, Inter Miami were "selected" to participate in the tournament in 2025 (Inter Miami CF Communications Department, 2024) (Deen, 2024) (FIFA, 2024) (MLSsoccer Staff, 2024). They did not "qualify" through continental competition or four year coefficient as the rest of the teams listed in the "qualified" table. They did not meet a criteria previously set by MLS, CONCACAF, or FIFA as the other qualified teams, but were invited by FIFA (Deen, 2024).

https://www.intermiamicf.com/news/fifa-announces-inter-miami-cf-as-host-member-association-club-for-fifa-club-world-cup-2025tm-following-2024-mls-supporters-shield-success https://www.mlssoccer.com/news/fifa-2025-club-world-cup-inter-miami-awarded-spot-alongside-seattle-sounders https://inside.fifa.com/about-fifa/organisation/media-releases/inter-miami-cf-joins-fifa-club-world-cup-2025-tm-line-up-mls-supporters-shield https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/soccer/2024/10/19/fifa-club-world-cup-2025-inter-miami-messi/75757646007/ 24.104.65.70 (talk) 01:19, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

No @24.104.65.70, the article is perfect this way. Inter Miami qualified as the host country representative after winning the 2024 MLS Supporters' Shield and this method was chosen by FIFA (which had the prerogative to establish how the host country's representative would qualify). Inter Miami is already separated from other CONCACAF clubs in that table, showing they qualified as host country's representative and not through the 4 CONCACAF slots. So, in this point the article is perfect how it is. TF MxLoko (talk) 14:12, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. S.A. Julio (talk) 20:44, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Inter Miami CF

Pinging @S.A. Julio:, @Matilda Maniac:, @Blaixx:. @PeeJay: in my opinion your edit is wrong. Inter Miami CF is invited as host. Host is United States, and their Federation is part of CONCACAF. In spite of being the host, Inter Miami CF Confederation is CONCACAF, which has been given one slot (to the host). Island92 (talk) 20:45, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

They are not representing CONCACAF, though. They didn't qualify through a CONCACAF competition, they qualified because they are representing the host nation. If you're counting the number of clubs from CONCACAF nations, yes, they would count towards that number, but the team representing the host nation is an entity unto itself and shouldn't be listed as a CONCACAF team. – PeeJay 21:03, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Ok, but each team qualified has its Confederation on the left. Why cannot this be the case for Inter Miami CF? CONCACAF is given an extra slot because the Host is representing United States. Island92 (talk) 21:14, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

The column says confederation, I don't think "Host (United States)" makes the most sense in this context. I would suggest continuing the format from past articles, such as 2023 FIFA Club World Cup#Qualified teams. S.A. Julio (talk) 04:49, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree. Island92 (talk) 09:05, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps we need to retitle the column if it doesn't cover everything below it. We shouldn't be referring to the host as a CONCACAF team just because that's what the column header says. – PeeJay 21:59, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Why that should be a problem? We have always used this kind of columns refering to team qualified in these tournaments... Island92 (talk) 22:31, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Because you’re using it as an excuse to incorrectly apply a confederation to Inter Miami. Personally, I don’t see a problem with using “Confederation” as the column header and still saying Inter Miami is representing the host nation. It’s not confusing, it just means for the purposes of a tournament like this, the host nation is a pseudo confederation. – PeeJay 09:14, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

No, it's logical understanding. Always adopted this practice. Island92 (talk) 10:16, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

If you think that's logical, then you don't understand logic. Just because something has always been done a certain way doesn't mean that way is correct. See is–ought problem. – PeeJay 11:17, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I know that, but apparently only you are opposing this feature to have a table different from the practice. For major tournaments the style has always been this. Inter Miami CF is representing host, part of CONCACAF. Island92 (talk) 12:19, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

That word "apparently" is doing a lot of heavy lifting. You're making incorrect assumptions about my motives. My intent here is to reflect reality as accurately as possible. Although Inter Miami is a club affiliated to CONCACAF, they have not qualified and referring to them as a CONCACAF qualifier is incorrect. By the way, I notice that you only pinged S.A. Julio, Matilda Maniac and Blaixx about this; what was your motive for selecting those three users in particular instead of notifying WT:FOOTY about this discussion? – PeeJay 16:29, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Because they have been the most active according to the history page. Also Qatar did not qualify for 2022 FIFA World Cup, but they are listed as part of AFC teams. So what's the most correct display? Island92 (talk) 18:15, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

It would be more correct to list Qatar separately from the AFC teams, especially since they played friendlies against UEFA teams in preparation for the tournament. – PeeJay 20:09, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Has never been the case, right? That's why there is a practice for these tables in major tournaments. Qatar is part of those AFC members (if you have qualified for the tournament via campaign or being just the host), as well as Inter Miami CF of CONCACAF, no? Island92 (talk) 21:03, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

What are you talking about? As I said, just because something has been done a certain way since the start, that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. – PeeJay 21:53, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Why not? Island92 (talk) 23:15, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Because you might not have considered a better way of doing things, obviously… – PeeJay 02:29, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Not necessarily, sometimes... However, just @Matilda Maniac: has to give the take according to who I pinged, let's say the response and what should be displayed in the table. Island92 (talk) 10:18, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

If you look at 2018 FIFA World Cup qualification, you can see that Russia is simply listed as host in the qualifying table, which is what we are discussing here (a qualifying table). Their confederation is not listed. However, the entire table is done differently, so maybe that is something to consider - unifying the look of the tables. I understand that it is a little different as Russia is the one and only option to host as they are the country and in the club competition, they are choosing one of many options so they have technically qualified as host by being the supporters shield champion. To carry on from the previous would mean Island92 would be correct but I get where PeeJay is coming from. I would recommend putting it through WT:FOOTY and discussing a consensus for all such articles: club, national team, or otherwise. Chris1834 Talk 13:55, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree with that. This as no different than 2022 FIFA World Cup#Teams either, where Qatar qualified as hosts, but are listed along with the other AFC teams. Miami's confederation is undoubtedly CONCACAF, it's just that their method of qualification is as hosts. BLAIXX 15:37, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

FIFA disagrees: North & Central America, Carribbean - 4 teams and Host country United States - 1 team: 2023 annual tournament is not a continuation of the quadrennial 1st edition of 2025[26] 2804:23D4:C208:2501:991B:C631:245E:2753 (talk) 11:34, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

We know that, but the Confederation for the host is in this case from CONCACAF anyway, being given one extra slot because representing USA, host of the tournament. Island92 (talk) 11:49, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, but host indicated by the country, without criteria established by the confederations(ex. Concacaf). first edition and new tournament is different from 21st edition 2804:23D4:C208:2501:991B:C631:245E:2753 (talk) 11:53, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Firstly, we have a table listing Confederations on the left. Inter Miami CF representing host is part of USA (CONCACAF). Secondly, this is only a new tournament under a new expanded format, not a new tournament overall. You are you? The blocked user Sinister Union, Fa30, who have gone on by supporting this theory? Island92 (talk) 12:17, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not. FIFA doesn't call it a "new format", except for the 2024 Intercontinental in relation to the 2023 annual tournament, but the first edition of a new tournament.2804:23D4:C208:2501:991B:C631:245E:2753 (talk) 12:38, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Remember not going off topic. The original is quite different. We discussing other thing, not if this is new or not. Island92 (talk) 12:56, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Regarding the host country, Concacaf has not established rules on this. Goodbye 2804:23D4:C208:2501:991B:C631:245E:2753 (talk) 13:04, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

This according to the rule, but each team qualified or representing something has got its respective Confederation on the left, according to the table we use here on Wikipedia. Regards. Island92 (talk) 13:11, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Criticism sub-section

As an aside from the current conversation, there probably ought to be a criticism sub-section on Miami's selection. There has been a decent amount written on that already, I just haven't found the time to actually write that sub-section into the article yet. Jay eyem (talk) 18:36, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Team names

@PeeJay: please do not modify how a team name should be displayed. Inter Miami CF for example is written like that on every Wikipedia page the team is involved in. Island92 (talk) 00:19, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

There's no need to write the full name in a map. Thanks. – PeeJay 00:38, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

@PeeJay: rather than reverting, please ask user @S.A. Julio: how a team name should be displayed. Seattle Sounders FC should be reported, Inter Miami CF and so on. It is their common name here. You need consensus for the change. It is not a case of being more flexible. Island92 (talk) 00:39, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm not interested in asking @S.A. Julio for their opinion, they are not the arbiter of what is "standard" around here. Your argument doesn't hold water. The map is small, therefore we can use shorter names. Also, Inter Miami and Seattle Sounders are referred to by shorter names all the time. Just look at MLSSoccer.com. The idea that we have to call them "Inter Miami CF" and "Seattle Sounders FC" all the time is ridiculous. – PeeJay 00:43, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

On a map ok. Island92 (talk) 00:46, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

The idea that we have to call them "Inter Miami CF" and "Seattle Sounders FC". That is a pre-established consensus I think. Always read like that for these teams. Island92 (talk) 00:49, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Everywhere Seattle Sounders and Inter Miami are involved they are reported with FC on Wikipedia. I don't know why. I think it is correct also here if that is the standard. Island92 (talk) 00:52, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

If you don't know why something is a certain way, you have no standing to claim that that standard should apply at all times. You haven't got a clue what you're talking about, you just follow blindly where other people have laid a path before you and make bold proclamations about what is "standard". – PeeJay 11:47, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Exactly, and if so far I've always read Inter Miami CF outsite this page, I think is correct to display Inter Miami also here. Island92 (talk) 16:38, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

That's demonstrably false. In their own article, Miami are referred to as "Inter Miami" 146 times and "Inter Miami CF" 138 times. Black Kite (talk) 12:06, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

It definitely depends on the team. In MLS the only ones I can think of where we make sure it is un-piped nearly every time are the "City FC" or "FC City" types e.g. Charlotte FC, FC Cincinnati, etc. The others are a bit more varied in their usage. I think with Seattle's particular case, it was often unpiped to distinguish itself from other previous iterations, but I may have that wrong. To my knowledge it has never made a difference for Inter Miami. Jay eyem (talk) 18:32, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Right, that's the way I see it mostly done in the media too, including in the work I do for the CBS Sports Golazo Network. – PeeJay 20:37, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

This has been discussed a number of times, it is standard for American club names to not be shortened (subsequent mentions in prose can be, though). See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 129#American teams and FC, SC, AFC, etc., Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 164#Frank Lampard, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/United States and Canada task force/Archive 1#Use of FC/SC suffix for club names#Use of FC/SC suffix for club names, etc. S.A. Julio (talk) 15:13, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

The first time they're mentioned in prose, yes. No one is arguing against that. – PeeJay 19:30, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, but I reverted more than once because Inter Miami without CF was reported into qualified teams table. This should not be the case for these kind of tables, as well as Brackets, Standing tables, and Football box collapsible. Island92 (talk) 22:49, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

@Syvä-äksy: there is a current consensus to display those teams with FC and so on. See links above of S.A. Julio. Island92 (talk) 21:40, 6 November 2024 (UTC)