Talk:2023 Jacksonville shooting

Regarding renaming the page from "2023 Jacksonville shooting" to "Jacksonville Dollar General shooting"

I feel like there should've been a RM done in order to reach consensus regarding changing the original name; there's several other American mass shootings at retail locations that are formatted exactly like the original title, a couple examples include the 2021 Boulder shooting and the 2022 Buffalo shooting. In my opinion, the title should be changed back to its original, "2023 Jacksonville shooting", and if you, @Bremps, feel that it should be changed to "Jacksonville Dollar General shooting", open a RM for it to be changed to that instead. B3251 (talk) 02:04, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm fine with a move request. Unfortunately, with the prevalence of mass shootings in the US, it's easy to get the years mixed up. Sorting it by location (e.g. "Jacksonville Landing" and "Jacksonville Dollar General") makes it easier to sort out and distinguish, as opposed to date ("2019 Jacksonville" and "2023 Jacksonville"). Bremps... 02:10, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Page move reverted. WWGB (talk) 02:32, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Suspect apparently identified

Several local news stations are now reporting the identity of what is believed to be the suspect: 1, 2, 3. He is said to have come from Clay County for the shooting and to have first gone after a historically black university before moving onto the Dollar General after being stopped by campus security. VintageVernacular (talk) 05:25, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Name has not yet been released by officials. WWGB (talk) 06:00, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Yeah I would keep it out entirely unless confirmed. But keep an eye out for confirmation. VintageVernacular (talk) 06:03, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Suspect's name confirmed by Sheriff just now, added multiple sources to back up Ruth545 (talk) 17:50, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

News article citing written statements from shooter marking 5th anniversary of Jacksonville Landing shooting

According to a Voice of America news article titled, "White Shooter Kills 3 Black People in Florida Hate Crime as Washington Celebrates King's Dream". (Date & time on article: August 27, 2023 10:55 AM (Not sure time zone)) A paragraph states (in it's entirety), "The shooter sent written statements to federal law enforcement and at least one media outlet shortly before the attack with evidence suggesting the attack was intended to mark the fifth anniversary of the murder of two people during a video game tournament in Jacksonville by a shooter who also killed himself." The part of the paragraph that states (paraphrased), "...murder of two people during a video game tournament in Jacksonville..." is referencing Jacksonville Landing shooting.

SOURCE↙️: White Shooter Kills 3 Black People in Florida Hate Crime as Washington Celebrates King's Dream — Voice of America https://www.voanews.com/a/7242987.html; Sroth0616 (talk) 16:03, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Including Party Affiliation

I added party affiliation to the "Perpetrator" section, which can be independently verified in Florida's public voter records by searching the defendant's First+Last name with their DOB. The subject chose to self-identify their party while pre-registering in 2017.

Someone thought it was a controversial addition, and that it was irrelevant to the perpetrator's description, removing it asking to get consensus.

I think this provides general background on the subject, but members who self-identify as the subject's party might take personal offense.

Worth adding? Ruth545 (talk) 19:23, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Right after I removed this I searched around for policy on the matter. The only thing I came up with is WP:UNDUE. I have seen articles about crimes and criminals where certain details about them were discussed intensely as not important such as race, specific mental illness, etc. If his political leanings are mentioned in any of his manifestos, that should be mentioned, but otherwise not. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 19:29, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

I agree with you, this will only be relevant if it's mentioned in any of his social media, writings, or manifestos. Thanks for looking into the policy! Ruth545 (talk) 19:31, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Looking up a subject's voter records is WP:Original Research. If it's not mentioned in reliable third-party sources, it shouldn't be included in a Wikipedia article. Funcrunch (talk) 20:38, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

I had added it with a source article.

Regardless, is a link to a public database entry containing verifiable factual information really original reasearch: "This includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that reaches or implies a conclusion not stated by the sources."?

If I had posted the reference to the database link itself, I doubt it falls under the scope defined in the rules, right? Ruth545 (talk) 20:48, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

What was the source? Link it please VintageVernacular (talk) 02:02, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Support: There is a growing body of literature documenting right wing violence that notes the party affiliation. For example, the US currently has a growing domestic violence movement closely tied to the right wing, supported and promoted by the right wing, and in many cases directed and incited by the right. We also have leaders on the right calling for civil war. Since the 2021 Capitol insurrection, there have been at least 13 attacks connected to the right. This one appears to be part of that pattern. Viriditas (talk) 22:46, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Context

Part of the below was removed and It is important to show context. It is neccesary. Can this be discussed?

—- Part of the section regarding DeSantis rendered unnecessary. Visual Wikitext Florida Governor Ron DeSantis issued a statement, in which he referred to the shooter as a "scumbag" and a "coward" for killing himself instead of facing responsibility for his actions. In 2023, DeSantis signs multiple bills to defund Diversity spending in Florida Schools both in lower level and University level education. 80.62.116.114 (talk) 23:13, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure why the bit about bills is necessary. This (afaik) has not been related to the bills, and per WP:SYNTH: Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any source. ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 00:57, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Might've gotten removed because "signing bills" earlier this year doesn't fall under that section "Reactions". However, if you comb through the footage of DeSantis' speeches since the incident, there's likely a reporter that asked the same question you propose. If you quote DeSantis answering that reporter's question, I'm sure it won't get removed.

Hypothetical, the following isn't real: "When asked if his support for bills defunding FL schools that offer Diversity education, DeSantis said XYZ" Ruth545 (talk) 00:58, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

References

Terrorism?

So calling this a "terrorist attack" appears to be solely the work of The Black Wall Street Times, in an op ed piece. Hardly a strong case for the addition of this label to the article. WWGB (talk) 11:32, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

You seem unfamiliar with the entirety of American history. This is the very definition of modern domestic terrorism. Are you confusing the term with something else? Viriditas (talk) 11:38, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

My issue is the application of the label to this incident, not the "entirety of American history". WWGB (talk) 11:40, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

"Terrorism" in this context is shorthand for racial terrorism. Viriditas (talk) 11:41, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Verifiability is Wikipedia policy. Other than the BWST, who has called THIS incident a terrorist attack (or racial terrorism)? It might look like terrorism, but where are the reliable sources lining up to call it that? WWGB (talk) 11:51, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

It's in the very first paragraph of the NBC News article that you keep ignoring. "The killing of three Black people at a Dollar General store in Florida Saturday afternoon was the latest act of American gun violence motivated by racist ideology, a national scourge that federal officials have described as one of the most lethal forms of modern domestic terrorism."[1] According to the DHS, "racially or ethnically motivated violent extremism 'is the single greatest terrorism-related concern'" in the US. "Within that population, the people of most concern are those driven by their beliefs about the superiority of the white race...white supremacists pose the 'most consistent threat' of violence against religious, cultural and government targets."[2] Viriditas (talk) 12:02, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Surveillance photo appropriate as lead image?

Is it appropriate to have a surveillance photo of the shooter as the lead image of this article? I don't think this is necessary, nor in keeping with other Wikipedia articles on mass shootings. ETA: The photo was added in this edit. Funcrunch (talk) 00:33, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Could be replaced with an image of the scene or memorial service, if available, but it's not too unusual. Ex. the Parkland high school shooting, Robb Elementary School shooting and 2019 El Paso shooting use surveillance footage as the lead image (2 of the shooter, 1 of the police). ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 00:43, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

considering the fact that there are other mass shooting articles that also use a screenshot of surveillance footage in the infobox for generally the same reasons, I wouldn't say it's far-fetched if there's no free alternative to photos related to the shooting (such as a memorial service). B3251 (talk) 00:57, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

I would rather see a photo of emergency response teams treating the wounded on the scene than a photo of a man killing people. Viriditas (talk) 04:00, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

I certainly agree - but due to the only casualties being from deaths, those kinds of images may not be available in this particular shooting; I'm not fully sure, but just from looking for a couple of minutes all I could really find are just photos of police vehicles on the road. I'm all for using a different image, I'm just unsure if there is one out there related to the shooting right now such as an image of the scene/a memorial that is available for WP use. If there is one in the future that does become available, I'm all for changing the image. B3251 (talk) 05:44, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

A memorial image or photo of the store would be preferable if one becomes available. Funcrunch (talk) 14:41, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Hey there, I was just using Mapillary to add images for locations of mass shootings and I happened to find one for this article, so this is now  Done. Thanks, B3251 (talk) 00:41, 1 May 2024 (UTC)