Talk:2023 Belgorod Oblast incursions

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This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.

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Moved to 2023 Belgorod Oblast incursion, 22 May 2023, from 2023 Belgorod Oblast attack to 2023 Belgorod Oblast conflict, see discussion.
Not moved, 12 March 2024, see discussion.

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Text and/or other creative content from this version of Bilhorod People's Republic was merged into 2023 Belgorod Oblast incursions with this edit on 1 July 2023. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

New info

this page does not seem to add information as frequently as it should be would it be possible for me to edit this page so i can add information from the official Freedom of russia telegram unit Huumas (talk) 11:46, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

In Casualties and losses -> Russian government forces -> Paragraph number #2 the second part of the last sentence, talking about the losses of 138th brigade doesn't fully/properly reflect the cited source (reference #88). This wikipedia article states the following: "...soldiers from the 138th Brigade stated that they lost nearly 80% of their unit (~1600 soldiers) during the fighting."

The source states the following: "An unverified video has also circulated on Russian and Ukrainian social media channels, purportedly showing a Russian soldier from the 138th Brigade posted in the Belgorod region. In the video, the solider said his unit lost 80 percent of its personnel..."

I believe that this article should be edited to reflect the fact that these are the claims of a single soldier and that the video is unverified according to the cited source.

It shouldbe edited to say "... an unverified video of a soldier claiming to be from the 138th Brigade stated that his unit suffered 80% losses..." for example.

I also believe that (~1600 soldiers) should specifically not be mentioned as neither the cited source nor the video within the Newsweek article itself mention this number. A brigade could have 2000 soldiers, but it could also have 5000 soldiers, it could also be understrength and have 1000 soldiers thus without access to additional information and reliable sources that can confirm the exact or likely strength of the 138th Guards Motor Rifle brigade at the time the video was posted I think we should refrain from speculation.

We should also specifically say his unit as the soldier in the video never explicitly states that his brigade suffered 80% losses, he only says his unit. While he could be referring to his brigade, he could also be referring to his squad, platoon, company, etc.

Semyon K. Timoshenko (talk) 12:20, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 20:19, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

Requested move 12 March 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. – robertsky (talk) 14:28, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

2023 Belgorod Oblast incursions → ? – There was a new big raid into Russia like the May and June 2023 ones [1]. All such raids should be covered in this article, so it is necessary to change the title. I don't think 2023–2024 Belgorod Oblast incursions would be a good idea as there might be more in the future (the war isn't ending anytime soon) and Belgorod Oblast incursions (2023–present) following some articles' standard is not appropriate either in my opinion as the raids have been sporadic. An easy solution might be to simply remove the year and move the article to Belgorod Oblast incursions. We can also propose other options. From the top of my head, Incursions into Belgorod Oblast during the Russian invasion of Ukraine, Ukrainian incursions into Belgorod Oblast. I think a RM like this is necessary to discuss possible options and chose an appropriate title. Super Ψ Dro 18:27, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Would support a title along the lines of Incursions into Western Russia during the Russian invasion of Ukraine, as this new raid covers not just Belgorod but also Kursk Oblast. In addition the incursion into Bryansk during March of 2023 could be covered in such an article. The one I've given is wordy and it'd be better to shorten it, but it makes most sense to expand the scope to all of Western Russia, and drop the year - presidentofyes, the super aussa man 19:48, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

True, somehow I forgot that. I'd say not to capitalize "western" for the sake of simplicity and because we don't seem to have an article for a region called Western Russia (redirect to European Russia). Based on this I think the shortest possible option would be Ukrainian incursions into western Russia. Though the troops are Ukrainian only by command and not by boots in the ground, so if we want to beat around the bush, Ukrainian-led incursions into western Russia, Pro-Ukrainian incursions into western Russia (I don't like this one a lot) or Incursions into western Russia during the Russian invasion of Ukraine (indeed long). Super Ψ Dro 20:12, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Or, based on my original simple proposal, Incursions into western Russia (maybe too vague?). Super Ψ Dro 20:13, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think that is too vague, I would probably go with presidentofyes's option of Incursions into Western Russia during the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Sadustu Tau (talk) 13:55, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Western Russia incursions (2022-present) seems a good choice too Waleed Ukranian (talk) 05:10, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The current raid seems to be happening in Kursk Oblast too so we need a title covering more than just Belgorod. 2023-2024 Western Russia incursions works best since it keeps the name formatting of the already-used 2023-2024 Belgorod Oblast incursions. The scope may be too large since these incursions aren't happening from Narva for example. But I believe anyone looking at this article will know Estonia (or any other country bordering Russia apart from Ukraine) is not involved in the conflict.

There are niche alternatives that describe the geographic area such as 2023-2024 Central Black Earth Region incursions but I'm not aware of any media whatsoever using this terminology. Adding this would no doubt be WP:OR HetmanTheResearcher (talk) 05:54, 13 March 2024 (UTC) Struck per WP:RUSUKR and WP:ARBECR. – Hilst [talk] 11:11, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I support 2023-2024 Western Russia incursions. Including "Ukraine" or "Ukrainian" right in the title isn't appropriate. Ukraine may be cooperating with these groups, but unless RS report that these raids are all directly led by Kyiv, we should assume that these anti-government groups are somewhat autonomous. Cortador (talk) 15:01, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. The current name is correct. The current scope is correct. The subject is formulated correctly. This article is about the May and June 2023 Belgorod Oblast raids that happened in quick sequence. It is not about the new raid.—Alalch E. 00:28, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support for Belgorod Oblast incursions, Western Russia incursions, 2023–2024 Belgorod Oblast incursions or similar names. The article's scope was well-defined before this discussion, and the scope included more attacks than just the May and June 2023 Belgorod Oblast raids. As one can read in the article, rebels launched several other attacks in 2023. Thus, the new raid is just the latest case of an ongoing campaign along the border. Applodion (talk) 17:19, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per nom. PoisonHK _{Sapiens dominabitur astris} 10:41, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Strictly speaking, the raids are ongoing. Thus, the current name is factually incorrect. Applodion (talk) 19:27, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - the merger discussion below shows a consensus for keeping these 2023 raids in a separate article from the 2024 incursions, so a name change is not needed. We have Attacks in Russia during the Russian invasion of Ukraine as an overview article. – Asarlaí ^(talk) 13:50, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Merger Proposal

I propose merging the content from 2024 Western Russia incursion to this article as this just so happens to be one of those incurious into that particular Oblast, though the Kursk Oblast is also involved this time. Perhaps some discussion here could clear things out as to whether a separate article is needed for this incursion or not. IanDBeacon (talk) 00:34, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Super Ψ Dro 08:32, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Sadustu Tau (talk) 13:54, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wait Right now, the scope of this article wouldn't cover the 2024 Western Russia incursion, as that deals with Belgorod and Kursk Oblasts, whereas this article only deals with Belgorod Oblast. That being said, discussion is underway to move the 2023-2024 Belgorod Oblast incursions article, and if it gets moved to something not limited to one Oblast, it would make sense to merge. Gödel2200 (talk) 14:37, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose this is a separate battle from the ones that took place last year. Many months have gone by without any combat on the ground in Belgorod.XavierGreen (talk) 14:40, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wait. I agree with Gödel2200 in terms of the scope of the article; additionally, the new incursion has not yet had time to amount to a great deal. If it does in the coming days and weeks, it will make more sense to recreate a separate article at that time, while if it doesn't, it will make more sense to keep it merged. DeemDeem52 (talk) 15:32, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose This is a seperate battle, and this is the largest incursion into Belgorod and Kursk since then. Lukt64 (talk) 17:15, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Because this battle includes engagements in both the Belgorod and Kursk Oblasts. The incursions in 2023 were only in Belgorod. Salfanto (talk) 17:17, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Keeping all the incursions in a single article will create an overly ambitious and bloated scope. Keeping the 2023 and 2024 incursions separate will better account for the evolving situation in the region. Scu ba (talk) 00:54, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Wendylove (talk) 05:04, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wait. I suggest waiting at least until March 18 to understand the scale of the operations of Ukrainian groups. If they cannot capture at least some significant territory by March 18, then I would advocate a merger. If they can gain a foothold by March 18, then I will oppose the merger. PLATEL (talk) 08:24, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose:
I believe the scope of the incursion is greater than the ones that occured last year and believe that it should get its own article Durranistan (talk) 10:18, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per XavierGreen etc. 🌺 Cremastra (talk) 15:34, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Time matters, not just the place. There is a similarity, there is a connection, but there is no cohesiveness in covering these two topics together. These are separate events with a significant time gap in between. Adding that content here would be adding non-topical content. Articles need to stay on-topic.—Alalch E. 00:25, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose nearly a year apart, under completely different conditions. Different (somewhat) locations, too. Juxlos (talk) 02:53, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. This article is getting a life of its own, has another special context, namely the 2024 Russian presidential election, and is also happening in Kursk. Borgenland (talk) 04:32, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose- initially I would've supported this article being re-scoped to fit in all incursions into Western Russia, but with the new incursion now taking on characteristics (both on the ground and in news coverage) of a more sustained operation that has also crossed into Kursk Oblast, it makes more sense to keep them separate - presidentofyes, the super aussa man 19:21, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose weakly - originally I supported the merge (without posting here yet), but like others have stated, it now looks like something big enough to be distinct from the original 2023 incursion(s). The weak oppose would become stronger if this incursion ends up covering more territory than the original incursion. Very generally, you could say the first incursion was "because of the upcoming summer 2023 counteroffensive attempt" while this incursion is "because of the Putin election", where the underlying reasons for the incursions are distinct. Zowayix001 (talk) 23:02, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, since, as Borgenland said, the article 2024 western Russia incursion has "a life of its own". SleepTrain456 (talk) 23:15, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Official Ukrainian involvement.

Ukraine needs to be listed as a belligerent. It is silly to include units like the Polish Volunteer Corps, which is recognised on wiki as a Ukrainian unit as a belligerent, but not Ukraine itself. Liger404 (talk) 11:34, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]