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Requested move 2 June 2022 (3)

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved as proposed. There's unanimous consensus that the current title is not ideal in terms of our guidelines. Among the editors who discussed the matter explicitly, though, there's much less agreement on the auxiliary question of whether the year should be included. Supporters note that WP:NCE generally prefers titles that contain the "when", while opposers argue that a shorter title is unambiguous. This issue, which has been discussed recently at various other forums without a clear consensus, ultimately comes down to "a judgement call", so given the split in numbers I can't say that there's a clear consensus here either. In this sort of situation – where everyone supports a move but there's no agreement on which particular title is best – WP:NOGOODOPTIONS simply tells me to "pick the best title of the options available". In this case, I'll move the article to 2022 Tulsa hospital shooting, as proposed, simply because including the year is the default per WP:NCE. To be clear, "while consensus has rejected the former title...there is no consensus for the title actually chosen". Feel free to start a follow-up RM focusing specifically on whether to include the year, although a better option might be to obtain a global consensus by starting a well-advertised RfC on this issue. (closed by non-admin page mover) Extraordinary Writ (talk) 21:34, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Warren Clinic shooting → 2022 Tulsa hospital shooting – This name better summarizes the shooting in the title. This follows guidance from WP:NCEVENTS. It gives the name of the year (since at point of writing, WP:COMMMONNAME is unknown) city, and type of location where the shooting took place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sheehanpg93 (talk • contribs) 20:19, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

So are we gonna move it? No one has objected, and 15 different editors support it. Are we gonna move it to 2022 Tulsa hospital shooting or just Tulsa hospital shooting? Grey13z (talk) 16:52, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You'll have to wait until the closer feels enough votes have come in. Love of Corey (talk) 01:29, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I definitely think that we shouldn't include the year, if you look more recent examples like Indianapolis FedEx shooting or Robb Elementary School shooting, they don't include the year, and the year should really only be put in for a situation like this if another shooting happens at a hospital in Tulsa, which is unlikely to happen again soon. Grey13z (talk) 12:29, 4 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
2022 Tulsa hospital shooting won't be any more recognisable than Tulsa hospital shooting. If you mention the Tulsa hospital shooting to people years in the future, they'll either remember it or won't. None of the people who don't remember it will when then remember it if you then say to them 2022 Tulsa hospital shooting. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 19:07, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
We don't write Wikipedia articles for people who remember events, that is not the purpose of an encyclopaedia. We write the articles to inform the readers about a topic or event. In ten years from now, at a glance what title is more informative to someone who may or may not have any background knowledge to the event? "Tulsa hospital shooting" informs that reader that there was a shooting at a hospital in Tulsa. "2022 Tulsa hospital shooting" informs that reader that there was a shooting at a hospital in Tulsa in the year 2022.
I know in the past you've mentioned Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting and Virginia Tech Shooting as examples of events that don't require the year to be instantly recognisable. It's true that Sandy Hook has entered into political discourse as a milestone event, it has a lasting legacy and is frequently brought up in the context of other school shootings in the US. This is also somewhat true for the Virginia Tech shooting, however because of how that article is named it requires a hatnote to distinguish it from the other shooting that happened on that campus a year earlier in 2006. However not all such shootings have the same long lasting notoriety. For every Sandy Hook, there is a less notable shooting like 2013 Santa Monica shooting, 2013 Hialeah shooting, 2010 Appomattox shootings, or 2003 Ennis shooting.
We won't know the lasting legacy of this shooting, or any of the other ones you and I have commented on recently for quite some time. We do not know if this event will become synonymous like Sandy Hook, or if it will be of little lasting legacy like the 2003 Ennis shooting. Until that becomes clear, we should err on the side of caution for all articles like this one, and follow the naming convention laid out at WP:NCEVENTS of When, Where, What. That does not prevent us from renaming the article one or five or ten year from now, when we will know the lasting historical legacy. But for now, we do not know it, and we should not attempt to guess it. Sideswipe9th (talk) 19:38, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The title only needs to be unambiguous & clearly identifiable. We shouldn't aim to give unnecessary info in titles; if we did, we'd add various other things, such as month, perpetrator, motive etc. Many people looking up attacks won't remember the year nor enter it when they search for it, so it's superfluous. They'll usually remember the location & method. The 2013 Hialeah shooting needs the year in its title to disambiguate it from the 2021 Hialeah shooting. The other examples you give don't need the year and it doesn't help readers. For example, most people won't remember when the Santa Monica shooting happened, so they won't use the year when searching for it. However, people looking it up will almost all remember that it was a shooting in Santa Monica. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 19:57, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The 2013 Hialeah shooting needs the year in its title to disambiguate it from the 2021 Hialeah shooting: Incorrect. The 2013 Hialeah shooting has had that name, since the article was created, in July 2013. And according to the page logs, that article has never been moved. That article is the perfect example of how to name an event, both in the immediate aftermath when there is no common name, as well as eight years later when another shooting happened in the same location.
We shouldn't aim to give unnecessary info in titles; if we did, we'd add various other things, such as month, perpetrator, motive etc. There are examples where it is necessary to add additional descriptors to an article title. For example; May 1995 tornado outbreak sequence, 7 July 2005 London Bombings, 21 July 2005 London Bombings. But it is also correct that concision is one of the five criteria we use when determining article names. However it is no more or less important than the other four criteria. The primary When, Where, What naming convention at WP:NCE addresses the balance of all five criteria, when an event lacks a common name.
most people won't remember when the Santa Monica shooting happened and people looking it up will almost all remember that it was a shooting in Santa Monica: We aren't writing articles only for people who remember when a specific incident happened. We are writing to inform people who may not have any background knowledge as to a specific event. While it may be obvious to you that there was only a single shooting in Santa Monica, we cannot and should not assume that it will be obvious to everyone. None of us know how a person is seeking out specific articles, we don't know if they're clicking blindly on Wikilinks, searching for specific terms, browsing by category, or browsing by template. We don't know if the reader is seeking out information on all mass shootings that happened in a given year, or all mass shootings that happened in a given locale. We cannot make the assumption that the only people reading about the Santa Monica shooting are only ever people who remember that it happened. Sideswipe9th (talk) 20:21, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Your conversation is for the WP:NCEVENTS, not here. Following those conventions, this is the best name. If you disagree with the naming conventions, that is a conversation to have there. I would also state that adding the year adds to the article, since there is a strong conversation surrounding mass shootings and gun control happening in the United States presently and having 2022 adds to the title, not subtracts. Sheehanpg93 (talk) 20:25, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Many editors routinely include the year in article titles because they see it in many & assume that it's routinely included. I didn't say that the month is never needed. In a significant minority of articles it's needed because there has been more than one of that event of that type in that place in that year, such as April 2022 Kabul mosque bombing & May 2022 Kabul mosque bombing. We don't include the month in the title unless it's necessary, nor should we the year. People who don't know an event took place aren't going to look it up, let alone the year it happened, so including the year in the title is of no use to anyone. Who could including the year in the title help? Links in articles, templates, categories etc. will work as well regardless of whether or not titles include years. Searches such as [year]/[place]/[type of venue]/[type of event]/[perpetrator] etc. will likewise show what they're looking for regardless. If you mention the Guildford pub bombings to people, they're either going to have heard of them or not. No-one is going to not know of them, but if you say the 1974 Guildford pub bombings, then they'll remember. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:19, 4 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but this event occurred less than a week ago, and no common name has emerged, unlike the Guilford Pub bombings. Like User:Sideswipe9th said, we are not writing articles for those who remember them. I have also stated that I agree that this is not the final name of the article. But right now, less than a week after the event, it is important to include the year. I also will repeat, that if you disagree, take that to the naming conventions. Sheehanpg93 (talk) 14:37, 4 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Many editors routinely include the year in article titles because they see it in many & assume that it's routinely included. No. Our naming conventions tell our editors to include the year in article titles. The relevant convention for this type of article is WP:NCEVENTS, which says If there is an established, common name for an event (such as the Great Depression, Cuban Missile Crisis or a "Bloody Sunday"), use that name. In the majority of cases, the title of the article should contain the following three descriptors: When the incident happened, Where the incident happened, What happened. Emphasis and wikilinks taken from that page. Routinely including the year is what the guidance tells us to do.
If anything, it is closer to the inverse of what you've said. Some editors, like yourself, routinely exclude the year in article titles because they've seen that it has been excluded in some and assume that it is routinely excluded. @Sheehanpg93: is correct though in saying that this is the wrong page to discuss the broader issues relating to this. I opened a discussion at Village pump policy about this almost two weeks ago, that I'd strongly encourage any editor here to contribute to relating to the broader issue of naming articles in this content area. Sideswipe9th (talk) 16:38, 4 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support per above. Honestly, I probably should have done that in the first place when making this. Although, I think the name should be the Tulsa Hospital shooting, because as of now, there's been no other hospital shootings in Tulsa. Nascar9919 (talk) 04:10, 4 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reply - This one. In fact, in the link you sent, it says "It has been proposed in this section that Warren Clinic shooting be renamed and moved to Tulsa Hospital shooting ... 2022 Tulsa Hospital shooting ...". --Jax 0677 (talk) 01:46, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That's a good point. Considering that the addition to the template happened during this discussion, some of the support comments aren't clear as to whether they're in favour of moving this to 2022 Tulsa hospital shooting or Tulsa hospital shooting. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 10:14, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Killer & surgeon were black

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The fact that the killer & the surgeon who'd operated on him were black has been added & removed from this article a few times. How relevant (if at all) is race to this shooting? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 10:14, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Only 2% of American orthopaedic surgeons are black, so Phillips’ race is important. Louis less so. WWGB (talk) 12:24, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Why is it relevant that a victim was in a job that was unusual for his race? The job is the same regardless of ethnicity, and there's no evidence of a racial motive. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:45, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It has absolutely no bearing on the motive or the context of the shooting. I don't see the relevancy. Love of Corey (talk) 23:11, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I do not see that Preston Phillips was killed because of race. 75.144.185.89 (talk) 16:38, 21 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The answer to this is always "do the sources say that race is important in this event?" Per WP:DUE, we should mention race iff the sources demonstrate it is relevant to the topic. EvergreenFir (talk) 16:46, 21 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Even so its culturally important as well as news worthy to indicate the incident wasnt racially motivated given it was a black-on-black incident. 2600:8804:6F0F:6D00:82E:7226:342C:8EBF (talk) 21:29, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Victims' names

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The surgeon was specifically targeted in revenge, so I can see the argument for including his name. The others weren't; they happened to be there & he doesn't appear to have had a grudge against any of them. In that respect, it's similar to someone carrying out a mass shooting a bar, shop, school, hotel etc. due to having a grudge against one member of staff. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:45, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Louis said he would kill anyone who “got in his way", so it’s likely the other dead tried to stop him or resist in some way, so I don’t think they are random killings like a school shooting. WWGB (talk) 23:44, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Tulsa hospital shooting or 2022 Tulsa hospital shooting

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The request for moving this page to 2022 Tulsa hospital shooting got lots of support, but many editors said that it should just be Tulsa hospital shooting instead of the 2022 at the start. I’d suggest replying to this discussion with whichever one you support, and for any further talks about which one to move to should be here. Grey13z (talk) 19:58, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 18 June 2022

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved (non-admin closure) >>> Extorc.talk 04:26, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

2022 Tulsa hospital shooting → Tulsa hospital shooting – WP:CONCISE Jax 0677 (talk) 15:14, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose: My opinion on this hasn't changed since the last RM. CONCISE is one of five criteria that all need to be balanced in article titles. The guidelines at WP:NCEVENTS show us how to name articles such as this one when we lack a common name from reliable sources, while also balancing all five of the criteria as lain out at WP:TITLE. After doing a quick source survey, as expected for an event that occurred 18 days ago we still do not have a common name. Also complicating matters is that, although we do not have an article on it, there was at least one other shooting at a Tulsa hospital in May 2021; KTUL source, KJRH source. There may be others, however my ability to search for the sources is hindered by many American news organisations blocking their websites to EU readers due to GDPR concerns. As such I would be somewhat wary about making this the definitive Tulsa hospital shooting article in lack of any common name demonstrated by our sources. Sideswipe9th (talk) 18:56, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose dates are needed and sadly not only hospital shooting ever in any big US city. In ictu oculi (talk) 21:07, 19 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - The suggested title is too vague. I'm pretty sure there have been other shootings at Tulsa hospitals before. Love of Corey (talk) 02:15, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Question as to violation of medical board rules

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Given that Oklahoma medical board rules and applicable statutory law explicitly mandate physcians to treat pain, it appears that this incident was arguably a direct result of violation of the medical board rules, though it seems completely ignored. Something, however, needs to be put in the article about this for WP:NPOV considerations. For now, I will insert the NPOV dispute tag, until we can figure out how to address this issue properly. 2600:8804:6F0F:6D00:82E:7226:342C:8EBF (talk) 21:16, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I found nothing in the text that suggests that he was not given treatment. The claim of violation appears to be unsupported, and the POV tag is thus not needed. Sjö (talk) 11:40, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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