Talk:1992 United States men's Olympic basketball team

Roster format appropriate?

Just looking at this article makes me wonder if the roster format (which I think is the same used on NBA pages) is the one that should be used for Olympic teams. It just seems weird seeing "Nationality" as a column when it's a roster for a National team - by definition all of the players are American! Do we need to establish a unique US Olympic team roster format? The needs are different from NBA or College pages. If so, it should carry through to all Team USA pages. Rikster2 (talk) 14:13, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Personally, I'd like to remove all flags from the NBA rosters, for various reasons. But if that's not going to happen, then an Olympic roster format might be a good idea. Zagalejo^^^ 17:49, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Agree that Olympic roster format is a good idea.—Chris!_c/t 18:27, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Selection

Something on the controversy of leaving Isiah Thomas off of the team strikes me as appropriate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.44.139.216 (talk) 18:35, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Someone is messing with the page

Someone is actively editing this page and adding inaccurate information (adding Dirk Nowitzki and removing Christian Laettner etc). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.45.18.37 (talk) 13:14, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Reqested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Withdrawn request as nominator. —Bagumba (talk) 23:35, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

---

1992 United States men's Olympic basketball team → Dream Team (basketball) – Dream Team is the WP:COMMONNAME for this topic and should be used over the invented descriptive name. Although the name might be considered non-neutral, WP:POVTITLE allows such titles; in any event, few if any sources contest the legitimacy of this team's "dream" legacy. The name is commonly used in news sources and is even the title of a book.—Bagumba (talk) 17:43, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

They called the team at the next Olympics the Dream Team as well. I think this rename might be taking a specific title and changing it into an ambiguous one. That is also not taking into account that non-braketed disambiguators are preferred over bracketed ones. So the current name would also be preferable over one that has to use (basketball). -DJSasso (talk) 17:48, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

There are Dream Team II and Dream Team III incarnations. However, they should be disambiguated at the Dream Team disambiguation page level. As it is, 1992 United States men's Olympic basketball team already uses the term "Dream Team" 12 times, so either the article tile should change or it should not use something that is merely considered an informal nickname.—Bagumba (talk) 17:52, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Well there is also the issue of consistency of article naming, this article falls into the situation where all articles for olympic teams are titled this way. Changing its title would knock it out of consistency. Now I know consistency isn't always needed. But combined with the other reasons I don't really see a need to change this. -DJSasso (talk) 17:55, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

When I read an article, esp. if I wasnt familiar with the subject, I look to the article name to understand what most people call the subject. If I didn't know anything about this Dream Team, I would think its just a cute nickname that most news sources only mention in passing or colloquially. That is certainly not the case here, and having it not be the title would be misinforming readers. The consistent Wikipedia-produced name of "1992 United States men's Olympic basketball team" would still be a redirect, so the only issue is that it is not the title. Reader knowledge should trump administrative consistencies.—Bagumba (talk) 18:12, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

I guess its just a difference of opinion. As a reader I would find the current title more informative. Remember we write articles for people who know nothing of the subject. If you didn't know anything about the subject which would help you more. "Dream Team" or "1992 United States men's Olympic basketball team"? I think its quite clear that the second would help the reader more as Dream Team doesn't really suggest that the article is the 92 US basketball team...or even a basketball team at all. (although the disambig would help with the latter) -DJSasso (talk) 18:28, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

The first sentence of the lead tells the reader about the subject. The article name tells the name the subject is commonly referred to. In the absence of a viable common name, we fall back to an invented descriptive name such as "1992 United States men's Olympic basketball team". Redirects exist, so there is no issue that a reader will find their article regardless of the article's name. We could use more descriptive titles like 1980 Winter Olympics United States–Russia ice hockey match or Post-Thanksgiving Friday, but it is preferable to use their common name like Miracle on Ice or Black Friday (shopping) when they exist.—Bagumba (talk) 18:50, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Using the common name for most articles I would agree, but not when the common name is an ambiguous title. If this team were clearly the primary topic for Dream Team then I could see your point, but currently it isn't. And a name that is not ambiguous is always preferable over an ambiguous name. (and I would note the current name isn't an invented name. its the official name of the team.) -DJSasso (talk) 19:34, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

The official name of the team by USA Basketball is "USA Basketball Men's Senior National Team", and this incarnation played in the 1992 Olympics. "1992 United States men's Olympic basketball team" is a concise description, but I don't know of any organization that declares it as "official". I understand your points, even if I dont agree with your conclusion. It boils down to significance of common name "Dream Team" being in the title with a "{basketball)" disambiguator versus having a concise descriptive name.—Bagumba (talk) 20:11, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

I oppose the proposed move for the following reasons:

• Other Dream Teams exist inside and outside the others that have represented the US in Olympic basketball, thus the existence of the disambiguation page.
• WP:COMMONNAME is generally used for shortened, but still terminologically correct names of subject articles. It is generally not used for nicknames. Bill Clinton is an accepted shortening of the president's name. Caffeine is the accepted scientific name for that chemical compound.
• Prevalent use. Yes, "Dream Team" is a common nickname for the 1992 team. Is it omnipresent like Cher or Lady Gaga? No. No one ever calls those women "Cheryl Sarkisian" or "Stefani Germanotta", but some variant on "1992 USA men's basketball team" ("1992 basketball team", "1992 Olympic team", etc.) is used just as often as the Dream Team.

The current redirect is sufficient. Ylee (talk) 19:45, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Re: "shortened, but still terminologically correct names": You italicized it, but it does not seem to be a direct quote from WP:COMMONNAME. Is your intent to put extra emphasis on your own interpretation? "terminologically correct names" taken literally implies that peanut should be renamed Arachis hypogaea when the lead says "the peanut is not a nut, but rather a legume." I dont believe that is the spirit of WP:COMMONNAME.—Bagumba (talk) 20:28, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

The name should be kept as is, because arguments can be made for teams in other sports to be referred to as the "Dream Team." NBA Fan44 (talk) 20:51, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

The request is to move to Dream Team (basketball) not Dream Team, which is already a disambiguation page.—Bagumba (talk) 21:19, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree with the use of a redirect and disagree with a page move. National teams follow a standardized pattern for naming. This acknowledges the likelihood of the search term while not interfering with standard naming conventions. Dream Team (basketball) is not really any more likely to be the search query than what is there now with the parenthesis included. matt91486 (talk) 21:44, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Basketball is not my sport but there is many "Golden generation" and I guess nobody really own the name "Dream Team", also nobody is really "The Queen", but rugby union teams really have a official nickname that the International Rugby Federation use --Feroang (talk) 01:27, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Michael Jordan

born febuary 1963 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.36.224.59 (talk) 14:44, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Some edits I made

I recently read Dream Team by Ian Thomsen, a highly respected NBA writer who had direct interviews with many of the Dream Teamers. Many of facts from that book conflict with what is written here.

1. I took out "Joe Dumars would have substituted for any injured players." because here's what Ian Thomsen says happened.

But had Daly come to a different conclusion, the call he was going to make was not to Isiah. “I know for a fact that Chuck wanted Dumars,” Jordan told me recently. (Remember that he and Daly played golf together almost every day.) “But Chuck just felt he couldn’t because of how badly Isiah wanted to be on the Dream Team. He just couldn’t do it. So he let John stay even with a broken leg.

Mccallum, Jack (2012-07-10). Dream Team: How Michael, Magic, Larry, Charles, and the Greatest Team of All Time Conquered the World and Changed the Game of Basketball Forever (Kindle Locations 2769-2772). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

While Joe Dumars was considering Dumars, MJ speculates he wouldn't have done it because of the insult to Isiah (on top of the original snub). Also Joe Dumars was only being considered as a replacement for the injured John Stockton (both being guards), not "any injured players".

The source cited for the original statement is Jan Hubbard a NBA columnist for Newsday. I believe Ian Thomsen is a stronger authority on this.

2. I took out "In a 2012 NBA TV documentary, Jordan said, "That was one of the stipulations put to me that Isiah wasn't part of the team."" because it's too confusing. It makes it sound like the committee was stipulating to Michael Jordan that Isiah wasn't going to be on the team which doesn't make sense since MJ didn't want Isiah on the team.

Also it's pretty much confirmed that Michael Jordan really was the reason Isiah was left off the team. I'll get multiple sources but for now I just have this.

Isiah Thomas was not a member of the Dream Team primarily because of two men, Michael Jordan and Chuck Daly. If we want to put a finer point on it, it was really one man— Jordan.

Mccallum, Jack (2012-07-10). Dream Team: How Michael, Magic, Larry, Charles, and the Greatest Team of All Time Conquered the World and Changed the Game of Basketball Forever (Kindle Locations 1340-1341). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

Rod Thorn, who as general manager of the Bulls in 1984 had drafted Jordan, was assigned the most important task: pulling the prize catch into the boat. Thorn called Jordan directly sometime during the summer, after the Bulls had won their first championship. (In fact, all of the invitations were extended directly to the athletes, not through agents; Granik, who as a league exec had fought numerous nasty battles with agents by that time, had insisted on that.) So let’s be clear right now about what Jordan said in that first phone call. “Rod, I don’t want to play if Isiah Thomas is on the team,” Jordan said. I wrote that in Sports Illustrated at the time, not because Jordan confirmed it, which he didn’t, but because at least two reliable sources did. At the time, Jordan more or less denied that he would stand in Isiah’s way. But he did confirm it to me in the summer of 2011. “I told Rod I don’t want to play if Isiah Thomas is on the team.” That’s what he said.

Mccallum, Jack (2012-07-10). Dream Team: How Michael, Magic, Larry, Charles, and the Greatest Team of All Time Conquered the World and Changed the Game of Basketball Forever (Kindle Locations 1350-1357). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Meme3234 (talk • contribs) 04:53, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

You mean Jack McCallum, right? Not Ian Thomsen. Zagalejo^^^ 05:29, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Jordan and Thomas

There was some confusion that it was mere speculation that Jordan might have had a hand in Thomas not being on the team. Over the years, this has come out to be a fact. There is a pretty succinct quote in the article from Jordan not to have Thomas on the team. It can probably be stated clearer, as I read McCallum's Dream Team book before, and I think even Bill Simmons is quote clear in his book, that Jordan was not going to have Thomas on the team. Later even Magic revealed he did not want Thomas on the team.—Bagumba (talk) 01:51, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Education Program: Cornell University/Online Communities

Course Page

As part of a class assignment Cjm274, ket47, gk252, and mjm627 will be making editing to this page. Our goal is to improve this article's rate to at least a B-Class.

Improvement/Expansion Plan

• Expand sections and go into more detail about certain facts
  • Example: I don't think it is clear why Christian Laettner was selected to the team over other NBA players. It would be helpful to expand on their decision to keep one roster spot open for a college player.
• General fact checking for sections that talk about the formation of the team and its legacy.
• Improvement of the statistical charts
  • the formatting of the chart is not consistent with that of the NBA's or Basketball Reference.
  • additional charts need to be added that show the players' stats in per 36min intervals and per 100 possession intervals. This is necessary to get a sense of how well the team was actually playing, because they played less minutes then they usually do in an NBA game.
• Add an additional section on controversy
  • This is probably a good place to put the Jordan/Isaiah Thomas details and Laettner over Shaq/Webber decision.
• Comparison with other USA men's Olympic basketball teams
  • Since the Dream Team is so freqently compared with the USA men's basketball team of later years, it is worth comparing the average margin of victory, scoring, opponent scoring, medals, and opponents field goal percentage.
• Fix references (dead links, referencing multiple times in reference list)
• Where are They Now? section
  • Patrick Ewing is looking to get into head coaching. After he was done playing he helped all-star center Dwight Howard become an offensive force. Christian Laettner wants to get back into coaching, after getting hit hard by the economic recession in 2008. Magic Johnson is an analyst for ESPN and is also the owner of the Los Angeles Dodgers. He is a successful businessman. Charles Barkley is a huge star on TV now. He works for TNT along side of many other former basketball players and it known for his comedic actions. Michael Jordan is doing just fine for himself. He is part owner and GM of the Charlotte Bobcats. He is known as the greatest to ever play the game. Chris Mullin is with ESPN's NBA team. John Stockton is watching his kids grow up into great athletes. He has six children. David Robinson formed Admiral Capital Group in 2007 and it is a private equity group with a goal of positive social impact. Larry Bird moved to the front office, he won executive of the year award in 2012, his last year as president of basketball operations. Karl Malone went back to Utah and opened a Toyota dealership. Scottie Pippen returned to the Bulls as a team ambassador in 2010. Clyde Drexler was on Dancing With the Stars in their fourth season. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ket47 (talk • contribs) 22:45, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

References

• NBA Dream Team: By the Numbers
• Jack McCallum's Dream Team
• NBA TV's "The Dream Team"

Images and Multimedia

• We will make sure that all images and multimedia used are protected under the fair use policy
• Medal Ceremony

Feel free to add anything we missed in our plan --Cjm274 (talk) 21:59, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

I’m glad this page is being edited, it really is missing a lot of information. It should should mention why great players, other than Ishiah Thomas, where left off the team (i.e Dominique Wilkins, Akeem Olajuwon, and Kevin Johnson). I also like your idea to about making a separate section about controversy, but make sure you mention Barley elbowing that Angolan player. By the way Magic is no longer an analyst for ESPN. I am not sure Patrick Ewing turned Dwight Howard into a "offensive force”, back it up with a source if you use that. 73.184.170.54 (talk) 19:02, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Hey folks. Very good plan. One suggestion is to go to other Wikipedia articles about olympic teams and see how they are structured, what sections they include. For example, look at the B-class article on the US Ice Hockey 1980 Olympic team or the GA-class article on the 2007 Texas Longhorns football team. Criteria for article quality can be found here. LeshedInstructor (talk) 19:19, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Glad to see this topic will be expanded. Regarding your plans for per36 and per100 statistics, there is no existing consensus in WikiProject Basketball or WikiProject NBA to have that level of detail in articles. I'd have a concern with it being too excessive for the casual reader per WP:NOTSTATSBOOK. Feel free to start a discussion at WikiProject Basketball if you want to pursue the stats additions. Cheers.—Bagumba (talk) 19:54, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion, we started a discussion at WikiProject Basketball. If we need to ask you anymore questions should we post it here, or would you rather it on your talk page? -Cjm274 (talk) 11:53, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia Project Progress: Sources

We will use the formatting from the FIBA archive for the statistical charts since it is clearer than what is correctly on the page. The accumulated statistics from the FIFBA archive will help us generate the per40 stats.

Jack McCallum's book the Dream Team goes into detail about why Isiah Thomas didn't make the team and the decision to add Laettner to the team over Shaq and Webber. He also has an article where he points out that Laettner was only on the team as a concession to the old system, when only college players where allowed on the team. We will also include information on FIBA's decison to allow pros in international competition.

The stats for comparing the 1992 team with teams from later years will come mostly from the NBA and FIBA archives. We might have to explictly calculate things like average margin of victory, and opponents fg % because most of these archives only provide this information on a game by game basis.

We will use the NBA documentary "Dream Team" to help support some of the content already described on the page, like the Dream Team's lost in the scrimmage. It should also give us some clarification about the formation of the team, and some information about what the players are doing now.-Cjm274 (talk) 16:27, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Other sources

Edits made

Made some edits concerning Laettner making the team. Included some information about FIBA allowing professional in international competition. US basketball committee included Laettner on the team as a concession to previous all collegiate system. Previously the article just mention the Laettner and Shaw competing for the last roster spot. I cited the USAB archive, Jack McCallum article, and newspaper article from 1990. -Cjm274 (talk) 12:49, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Add "Controversy" section to better organize some of the controversial effects about the team. "Controversy" section section talks about Isiah Thomas being left off Team , committee's decison to pick Laettner over Shaq , and Barkley elbowing the Angolan player. -Cjm274 (talk) 12:15, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

I've tagged the section, as I think it's more neutral to not have a dedicated "Controversy" section. No problem with the content, per se, just its organization within the article. Refer also to Wikipedia:Criticism. For example, roster decisions can be integrated into 1992 United States men's Olympic basketball team#Forming the team. Game incidents, if truly notable, can be placed in recaps of individual games. See 2012 United States men's Olympic basketball team for example of game recaps in an Olympic team article.—Bagumba (talk) 04:32, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Took out Controversy section per Bagumba suggestion. Included Isiah Thomas being left off Team and, committee's decision to pick Laettner over Shaq in "Forming the Team" Section. Also put Barkley elbowing the Angolan player in the Olympic section. - Cjm274 (talk) 12:58, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Added this image to Olympic section.

File:Rsz 8430043486 d867a7008b o.jpg

Michael Jordan shooting with his eyes closed.

-Cjm274 (talk) 13:17, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Added a section about comparison with the 1996 USA Men's National Team. Compared average margin of victory, average points per game, average points against per game, and the medal that each team won. ket47 (talk) Kevin (talk) 22:12, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Added a new comparison page. The last one got taken down so this one seems to be more straightforward. Bagumba had some discrepancies with it so now it is more efficient. Kevin (talk) 01:48, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Comparison Section There was not a huge significant difference between the the two National teams being compared here. Charles Barkley, John Stockton, Karl Malone, and David Robinson are players that were on both the Dream Team and the 1996 Men's Olympic Team. Here are the stat differentials for the two teams: 1992 United States Men's National Team -Average margin of victory- 43.75 points -Average points per game- 117.25 points -Average points against per game- 73.5 points -Received the Gold Medal

1996 United States Men's National Team -Average margin of victory- 31.75 points -Average points per game- 117.25 points -Average points against per game- 73.75 points -Received the Gold Medal

As one can see the Dream Team was statistically better in every category mentioned above. Kevin (talk) 00:53, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Where are they now? section added Patrick Ewing is the associate head coach for the Charlotte Hornets. After he was done playing he helped all-star center Dwight Howard become into one of the league's best centers. Christian Laettner is the current assistant coach of a team in the NBA Development League. Magic Johnson purchased the Los Angeles Angels in 2012 and the Los Angeles Sparks in 2014. He is a successful black businessman succeeding in the world today. Charles Barkley is a huge star on TV now. He works for TNT along side of many other former basketball players and it known for his comedic actions. He stars on the show Inside the NBA. Michael Jordan is doing just fine for himself. He is part owner and GM of the Charlotte Bobcats. He is known as the greatest to ever play the game. Chris Mullin is with ESPN's NBA team. John Stockton is watching his kids grow up into great athletes. He has also been getting into coaching. Being an assistant coach to multiple teams at once. David Robinson formed Admiral Capital Group in 2007 and it is a private equity group with a goal of positive social impact. Larry Bird moved to the front office, he won executive of the year award in 2012, his last year as president of basketball operations. He is president of basketball operations for the Indiana Pacers. Karl Malone went back to Utah and opened a Toyota dealership. He still keeps in good shape as he trains his body routinely. Scottie Pippen returned to the Bulls as a team ambassador in 2010. Clyde Drexler was on Dancing With the Stars in their fourth season. He serves as a color commentator for the Rocket's home games. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ket47 (talk • contribs) 17:48, 30 September 2014 (UTC) Kevin (talk) 00:41, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

As the players' fame and post-playing career are weakly related to their Olympic experience, I think this information is best left to the individual team members' biographies.—Bagumba (talk) 06:42, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. Kevin (talk) 00:53, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Below is a new comparison page since the old one got taken down. Kevin (talk) 01:46, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

References

Comparison to Other USA National Teams

Comparing the Dream Team to other USA National Teams is something that people always love to do. The average wins produced per 48 minutes (WP48) of each National Team since 1992 are listed.

• 1992 Dream Team: 0.317 average WP48
• 1996 Dream Team: 0.277 average WP48
• 2000 Dream Team: 0.189 average WP48
• 2004 Dream Team: 0.165 average WP48
• 2006 Dream Team: 0.200 average WP48
• 2007 Dream Team: 0.228 average WP48

This above list indicates that since the 1992 Dream Team, the quality of teams has decreased. The 2008 National team is the one that has been most comparable to the Dream Team of 1992. The WP48 on the 2008 team was 0.250. This is the best since 96'.

The 2000 USA Olympic Team was highlighted by Vince Carter and his infamous dunk of the 7 foot tall center on the France team. They went an undefeated 8-0 on the tournament, even though they won several close games. The "Redeem Team" of 2008 had one main goal: to make up for the awful 04' national team showing. The team was lead by Dwayne Wade, Lebron James, Kobe Bryant, and Carmelo Anthony.

The matchup between the 2012 USA team and the Dream Team is one that is highly controversial. Kobe Bryant came out with a statement that said "the 2012 team could beat the Dream Team". Charles Barkley had a priceless reaction. He said that Lebron, Durant, and Kobe are the only ones on the 2012 team that would even make the Dream Team. And then went on to say that they would win by double digits.

Kevin (talk) 01:46, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Good work, @Cjm274, @Ket47, @Gk252, and @Mjm627. Here are couple of suggestions for you to improve the article:

a) Contribution in the Team Formation is good.

b) You may want to figure out if some of the reverted texts can be relevant to this article. One way can be to extract some general information out of the whole data that can be considered as more general than individual.

c) Please summarize each of your contributions while making the changes.

d) You can try to work on some other places you committed to make contributions to.

IshtiaqueAhmedCornell (talk) 04:16, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

I just went through and made some grammatical corrections and improvements. If anyone has any suggestions for further language improvements, let me know and I can re-work things to make them more readable and concise. Mjm627 (talk) 04:23, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Statistics comparison

So I made a chart that compares some of the major statistical averages between the 1992 Olympics Men's Basketball Team and all of the teams leading up to the latest olympic summer games (2012). I also added a drop-down legend that notes the abbreviations I used. I garnered all of the statistics in the chart from the FIBA webiste. I think I got the most important statistics, but et me know if you would like me to add or change any. Gk252 (talk) 06:22, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

We need to be careful about presenting statistics. Per WP:NOTSTATSBOOK, "articles should contain sufficient explanatory text to put statistics within the article in their proper context for a general reader." Unless reliable sources exist that make these comparisons, presenting them in a stats table is excessive and original research is involved in their selection.—Bagumba (talk) 07:23, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

I added a explantation before the statistics & also added medal for each time. All the stats have come from the FIBA archive, and I think a comparison of the olympic teams is extremely relevant to the article. The Dream Team is compared endlessly to ever men's Olympic basketball team post 1992. This is pretty clear if you read the Legacy section of the article. If you want additional sources to support the compounded stats then we can look around. -Cjm274 (talk) 12:11, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

I believe this section of comparison is highly needed. With all of the hype around basketball lately and Lebron, the Dream Team needs to be emphasized as one of the best National Teams ever. The text added before the chart further explains what is going on here. Kevin (talk) 15:14, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

@Cjm274 @Ket47: Per WP:SECONDARY, "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and primary sources." Statistics are considered primary sources. There's no disputing that the Dream Team is generally considered the greatest US basketball team, and some have said it is the greatest sports team ever. However, that point should be expanded based on the opinions of writers from secondary sources. Some statistics can be appropriate, for example scoring average and point differential, if they have been given greater weight in secondary sources. What we need to be careful of is original research by editors that use statistics to prove a point in a way that has not been previously published, or is a minority opinion. There are enough secondary sources that say the Dream Team was great without requiring Wikipedia editors to hand-pick their own chosen stats from a stats database.

For an example of secondary sources used to compare teams, see 2012_United_States_men's_Olympic_basketball_team#Dream_Team_comparisons for a more detailed comparison of the 2012 team to the Dream Team. A lot of the details are not in this 1992 article, as they are minority opinions that should not obscure that there is not much debate over how great the Dream Team is generally considered.—Bagumba (talk) 17:42, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Peer Edit Feedback

In the "Olympics" section, there are a lot of confusing/poorly worded sentences, such as " team trained for the Olympics in Monaco for six days, practicing two hours a day and playing exhibition games against other national teams, and also enjoying the nude beaches, Monte Carlo's casinos,[11] and dining with royalty.", "During the team's first Olympic game against Angola with the US up 38-7, Charles Barkley elbows Herlander Coimbra and is unapologetic after the game, claiming he was hit first. Barkley was called for an intentional foul, were Coimbra's free throw was the only point scored by Angola on the U.S.'s 46-1 run.", and "The closest of the eight matches was Team USA's 117–85 victory in the gold medal game, a rematch against Croatia,[33] participating as an independent nation in the Olympics for the first time since its separation from the former Yugoslavia; the Dream Team was briefly behind 25–23 in the first half,[28] but by the end of the game Stockton agreed to a Croatian player's plea to not shoot."

It would be good to include some quotes from people who saw the U.S. team as bullies, to make the article less biased. It would also be good to include a citation for the sentence that says "Pippen and Jordan aggressively sought the opportunity to guard Toni Kukoč of Croatia. He had just signed a contract with the Bulls for more money than Pippen, who believed that the team's negotiation with the Croatian had delayed his own contract. Tiring of hearing about Kukoč's talent, Pippen and Jordan agreed to, as Jordan later said, "not ... let this guy do anything against us." He told Johnson before the first Croatia game "I'm serious tonight", causing Johnson to reply "Uh oh."
KieranKinnare (talk) 18:35, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

I reviewed Early Scrimmages, Tournament of the Americas, and Legacy

My critiques are in early scrimmages the sentence structure is choppy especially the first few I advice rewording and adding detail. The Tournament of Americas could use more information like what it is and reasons behind it. Also the dream team gets brought up with no explanation on what it is or their significance. I would add more detail in this section and just keep in mind if someone was not very cultured in basketball how would they read it. The Legacy section was good but it might be a good idea to do a comparison to other outstanding basketball teams in history and demonstrate more clearly how special this team was. Message me if you would like more advice or have any questions about what I am talking about. The Da Crook (talk) 18:31, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

We did have a section comparing the Dream Team to other USA olympic national teams. I believe that this fulfilled in showing how dominate the Dream Team was. Kevin (talk) 14:33, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

The sentence regarding corporate sponsors in the "selections" section is unclear. There's a missing closing parenthesis, and it could use rewording. I think the section on Isiah Thomas could use a link to the Detroit Piston "Bad Boys", which was a prominent storyline in the NBA at the time and is very relevant in describing Thomas' soured reputation. Also, check Magic's comment regarding Thomas' rejection from the team - i assume it should read "...Isiah killed his own chances..."? I know it's been discussed elsewhere, but I believe a separate section on "controversy" is certainly appropriate. Modern accounts of the team seem to stress it as a major aspect of the narrative. Avibavi (talk) 18:41, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

I just went through and made some of the grammatical edits that were suggested. Thanks for the feedback and let me know if you see anything else we missed. Mjm627 (talk) 03:27, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

References

WP48

This recent edit added WP48 comparisons to the article. First of all, there is no explanation provided to the reader of the meaning of WP48. Is it consistently calculated, or are there varying versions? Does it need to be be attributed? If the stats are proprietary, is representing the entire list a copyright violation? As this is not a mainstream stat, and if this is to stay, there is no stats for the 2012 team.

I also have a concern that dedicating a section on this stat, since it's us is not widespread, might give it undue weight. As there are enough mainstream media sources that believe the 1992 team is the best, I believe the point can be conveyed without complex stats like WP48 or non-reliable sources like chatsports.com needing to be used. There's also a whole book by respected writer Jack McCallum that seems like could be leveraged more.—Bagumba (talk) 05:51, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Given the silence, I will delete this text.—Bagumba (talk) 03:45, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

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Monte Carlo scrimmage teams

About the Monte Carlo scrimmage section I just edited, it has become legendary and videos about it abound on YouTube. (this version has Jordan himself reminiscing). I just checked several versions to become sure: Chuck Daly divided the team into "East" (Jordan, Pippen, Barkley, Mullin, Ewing, Bird) and 'West" (Magic, Drexler, Robinson, Malone, Stockton) halves. In the footage, the colors blue and white sometimes switch teams, but the teams themselves do not change. Magic says on camera the West "let Jordan have the college kid" but Laettner does appear, very shortly, on the West team. Larry Bird is shown lying on the floor, to ease his back problems, dressed in East colors. Just for the record. Ibaman (talk) 00:23, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

@Ibaman: Thanks for starting this discussion. I'm not sure that the YouTube clip from the NBA TV footage is reliable enough to support your change of the rosters from what Jack McCallum wrote in the existing citation. On McCallum's website, he later wrote in 2017: "An excellent documentary on NBA TV, which first appeared in 2012 ... showed a snippet of the game but only added to the confusion because it mixed in clips from other Dream Team scrimmages.[1] McCallum was actually at the scrimmages, and has very detailed play-by-play in the SI source, as opposed to the NBA TV video snippets which McCallum says are not from the specific scimmage he referred to. If need be, we can mention the NBA TV footage and how McCallum says it is misleading. While I'm more inclined to just list McCallum's original rosters only, I am amendable to either an explanatory footnote or something written inline about NBA TV conflicts. I would not support listing the rosters as seen only on the NBA TV footage. Let me know your thoughts.—Bagumba (talk) 15:27, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Well, Jordan lists verbally his team (omitting Barkley). Magic says clearly Drexler and Malone were on his side and Barkley was not (watch him remembering of yelling at Clyde and Karl to "get him back"). On this video, Magic himself lists both teams, at 2:43. However, after I felt sure to remove the "disputed" tag, I came to notice both Magic and Jordan claim Chris Mullin on his own side, therefore I have reinstated the tag. Ibaman (talk) updated 18:26, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

I saw that you reverted back to McCallum's version of the roster. I made another edit which adds an explanatory note about the fixed footage by NBA TV, add added an ESPN source that uses McCallum's version of the roster.—Bagumba (talk) 10:14, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

Recent editing by JimKaatFan

I would like to know why a more detailed version of the background section that explained what exactly was going on in the world of international basketball in the late 1980s was removed and replaced with a short summary. Wouldn't the readers want more details?

JimKaatFan's edits

The information that was removed:

The Olympic Games were originally intended only for amateur players. As a result, the United States could only use college players and had to build a national team from scratch every four years, as all American players turned pro after the Games and thus were no longer available for selection. On the other hand, the Communist countries (mainly the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia) used full-time professionals who were given phantom jobs to circumvent the amateur rules. Unlike the Americans, the Soviets fielded experienced veterans who played together for years. This culminated in the 1988 Summer Olympics, where the Americans lost to the USSR and settled for bronze, tied for the worst finish with the 2004 Summer Olympics. FIBA, international basketball's governing body, believed that the rules were unfair and changed them, allowing USA Basketball to field teams with National Basketball Association players, over Soviet votes against the proposal. FIBA Secretary General Borislav Stanković advocated for this for years.

81.9.126.76 (talk) 17:44, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

There's a lot of original research in that version that is not mentioned by the sources you used. "The Olympic Games were originally intended only for amateur players" - actually, professional players from other leagues that weren't the NBA were always allowed to play. "all American players turned pro after the Games" -that's not even true, let alone sourced. There's more, but basically, that version was a mess. Did you write it? JimKaatFan (talk) 20:33, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Although it is true, that many US players turned pro right after the Olympics, you can challenge that part because it's indeed unreferenced. What I disagree with is removing the entire paragraph and replacing it with a pathetically short summary. It looks like you're specifically trying to avoid mentioning the USSR and Yugoslavia and the fact that their teams were far more seasoned than American teams. 81.9.126.76 (talk) 21:35, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

I'll ask you flat-out: are you somehow connected to sportswriter Bill Bender? JimKaatFan (talk) 14:18, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

No, and I highly recommend explaining why you want to rewrite history. 89.113.98.96 (talk) 14:59, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

References

Anonymous IP changes from 2 days ago are sourced to an article that was written... yesterday?

I find this extremely odd, a little too odd to be coincidence. Here is an edit by an anon IP that says "Communist countries (mainly the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia) used full-time professionals who were given phantom jobs to circumvent the amateur rules." This was not only unsourced, but flat-out inaccurate, as it wasn't only Communist countries that used professionals; any non-NBA pros could play in the Olympics, long before 1992. That's well-sourced. The editor appears to be conflating the USSR hockey team situation with basketball.
Here's what really strange - when told that this was unsourced, a new article magically appeared yesterday, Inside the 'Dream Team', that almost word-for-word matches what the anon IP wants to insert into this article. It's rife with inaccuracies. Not only does it make the same misstatement about the Soviet and Yugoslav players, but it also states that "in response" to the 1988 bronze "USA basketball worked with NBA commissioner David Stern to allow professional players to play." It was actually FIBA that changed the rule to allow NBA players, and USA Basketball actually voted against that change! (also well-sourced). Again, this article is dated 5/6/2020. It is hard to imagine that the writer of the article is not somehow connected to this IP editor, isn't it? JimKaatFan (talk) 14:17, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Instead of explaining your removals of sourced information, you keep deflecting and accusing me of preposterous things. Better tell why you think that the USSR and their use of pros from their professional league (which is even here described as professional) and Borislav Stankovic's contributions should not be mentioned. 89.113.98.96 (talk) 14:58, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

I don't think anything about it at all. I just think Wikipedia should stick to reliable sources. JimKaatFan (talk) 15:34, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Is Scottie Pippen 6'7" or 6'8"?

This article lists him as 6'7". His own article lists him as 6'8". There are reliable sources that use both numbers, although 6'8" does appear to be more common. Any thoughts on this? Should stay consistent. I noticed this when a recent edit changed it and another edit reverted that change. JimKaatFan (talk) 14:11, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

USA Basketball has him at 6'7" in 1992 Whether we use that or another, we should cite the source. For example, Template:2019 United States FIBA Basketball World Cup team roster lists a reference.—Bagumba (talk) 16:12, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

I only changed it back because there was no rationale for the change given in any edit summary. Arbitrarily changing heights of famous people is a common source of problems, and I'm fine if he really IS 6'8", so long as someone actually provides a source or a rationale for the change. I do note that Basketball Reference, a commonly used source for sports articles, lists him as 6-8. ESPN.com doesn't list a height, but NBA.com does, and calls him 6-8. Given that, I'll switch this one back. --Jayron32 16:25, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

@Jayron32: FYI, the main factor in the past with the NBA is that they never standarized among clubs whether the measurements were with or without shoes on. Height_in_sports#Basketball goes into other reasons why heights might be over- or under-repeported. The league supposedly cracked down this past season.—Bagumba (talk) 16:34, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

All that may or may not be true. I just want to make sure that we have reliable sources for our information. --Jayron32 13:00, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

Sole source of "death threats" claim was Charles Barkley

I feel like the "death threats" bit has way too much space dedicated to it. Mr. Barkley, always a colorful character willing to entertain interviewers, made one offhand comment claiming the Dream Team was receiving death threats, and we include a giant paragraph-size quote about it. Yet, after researching everything I could find, it seems Sir Charles is the only source of this tidbit. No one else, ever, claimed that the team received death threats. I'm suggesting this section be trimmed a little to reflect this reality. JimKaatFan (talk) 06:11, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

I don't think the direct quote from him is needed: Per MOS:QUOTE: It is generally recommended that content be written in Wikipedia editors' own words. Consider paraphrasing quotations into plain and concise text when appropriate ...—Bagumba (talk) 06:42, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Yeah I agree. Also, I'm aware of WP:CLAIM, but in this case, since he's literally the only person who ever claimed there were death threats, would it be appropriate to use that word when summarizing his comments? I also have other sourcing that details the various reasons the Dream Team stayed in a hotel so that his explanation won't be the only one explaining the housing situation. JimKaatFan (talk) 06:52, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

We shouldn't add doubt unless sources question him or he's a minority opinion. Even then, it's better to just make it clear which is the majority view.—Bagumba (talk) 07:04, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 July 2021

Please change:

 Jordan declined Daly's suggestion that he serve as the public face of the team, and Bird and Johnson were selected as co-captains.

to...

 Jordan declined head coach Chuck Daly's suggestion that he serve as the public face of the team, and Bird and Johnson were selected as co-captains.

I recommend this change because this is the first mention of Daly in the article, so a link to Daly's page should also be added in that sentence. Filia Pirate (talk) 15:47, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

 Done—Bagumba (talk) 16:22, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 13 July 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) -- Calidum 17:00, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

---

• 1992 United States men's Olympic basketball team → Dream Team
• Dream Team → Dream Team (disambiguation)

– Requested move due to WP:COMMONNAME and historical significance. The 1992 USA basketball team is widely known as the "Dream Team", and though there are many other items listed on the dab page, none of those have the historical significance or prominence as the 1992 basketball team. I see that concerns were raised in the earlier move request from 2012 that "xxxx United States men's Olympic basketball team" is a naming convention, but I believe an exception can be made for this historically significant team. Natg 19 (talk) 19:43, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Courtesy ping to @Bagumba, Djsasso, Ylee, NBA Fan44, Matt91486, and Feroang: who commented on the last move request. Natg 19 (talk) 19:52, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose. As you noted, there is a naming convention for Olympic sports teams, and disregarding it here does not making anything clearer for our readers. See WP:CRITERIA, WP:PRECISION. I'm also not convinced that "Dream Team" is a runaway primary topic, given the long list of possible uses at the dab page. Note that Dream Team (basketball) already redirects to 1992 United States men's Olympic basketball team; this primary redirect should suffice. 162 etc. (talk) 21:00, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose -- I think that there's not a compelling reason to move away from the naming convention here. I would potentially support making Dream Team automatically redirect to the current name, and then a hattip at the top saying that Dream Team redirects here, and for other uses see Dream Team (disambiguation). But I don't feel too strongly about it, as it is the first link at the Dream Team page as is. matt91486 (talk) 22:07, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
• Comment For reference, earlier move request was at #Reqested_move.—Bagumba (talk) 01:35, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose the term 'dream team' is commonly used to refer to good teams. Using the phrase without qualification doesn't commonly refer to this team—blindlynx (talk) 13:59, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose For starters there's at least three US Olympic basketball teams this can apply to, and that's before you look at the rest of the dab page. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 16:53, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose due to ambiguity and consistency with similar articles. Crossover1370 (talk | contribs) 18:59, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Assists

For some reason, the little box in the upper righthand corner says that Scottie Pippen led the team in assists with 5.9 assists per game. This is wrong for two reasons. First: Pippen had 6.1 assists per game. Second: Magic Johnson had 9 assists per game. I tried to fix this, but I couldn't because it is locked to non-registered users. Could someone please "assist" me with this? 222.153.107.106 (talk) 09:54, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Stats

A Note from a non-user As a non-user, I just happened to notice that there is a math error in the table on stats in the Olympics. If you compute a PPG based on the reported FG made, 3P made, and FT made, it is higher than the table computes for PPG. However, if you compute an erroneous PPG by using only 1 points for a made 3P shot, you get the number shown for PPG. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.224.24.232 (talk) 13:36, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Do you have a specific example of a player that needs fixing? I'd also suggest using reliable sources for the stats, and not rely on computations. Note that FG made also includes 3 pters, so maybe that's why it seems like it only counts for 1 point?—Bagumba (talk) 14:04, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Update the International Impact

The article mentions the number of international players on opening day rosters in 1991-92 as compared to 2011-12. This should be updated to reflect the 2023-24 numbers, where there were 125 international players from 40 countries on opening day rosters. It further illustrates how global the game has become. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.119.97.35 (talk) 01:32, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

References