Talk:1991 Estonian independence referendum

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Elections and Referendums

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Elections and Referendums, an ongoing effort to improve the quality of, expand upon and create new articles relating to elections, electoral reform and other aspects of democratic decision-making. For more information, visit our project page.Elections and ReferendumsWikipedia:WikiProject Elections and ReferendumsTemplate:WikiProject Elections and ReferendumsElections and Referendums articles

Requested move 30 June 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved — Amakuru (talk) 11:22, 8 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Estonian independence referendum, 1991 → Estonian restoration of independence referendum, 1991 – Historically Baltic States restored their independence in 1991. The restoration was recognized by all the states which had had diplomatic relations with Baltic states before the WW2,^{Page 21} except Russia, whose political doctrine since has been to state that Baltic states joined Soviet Union on their free will and their independence was thus declared and not restored in 1991.[1] (see also Occupation of the Baltic states#Position of the Russian Federation) The title should follow the question put on the vote in the referendum, it was not only declaring independence but especially declaring restoration of the independence which are different concepts. Restoration of independence is a step more than just declaration of independence. It also ties the independence with the laws, obligations and politics which existed before the interruption of independence. Contemporary news sources call it just referendum, also noting restoration, renewal or other terms noting the connection with prewar states. Especially in US in accordance of the Stimson Doctrine. (Estonia and Latvia, taking another step toward secession from the Soviet Union, voted by margins of 3 to 1 for the re-establishment of their republics' independence in referendums Sunday. LA Times 1994)

Term independence referendum is not used google search comes back with irrelevant results. Klõps (talk) 17:10, 30 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Current title does exclude the possibility that the referendum was on restoring independence and numerous other independence referendums for countries that were previous independent use the same format, e.g. Latvia, Lithuania, Montenegro 1, Montenegro 2. "restoration of independence" is unnecessarily long and seems to be an unnecessary effort by Estonian editors to emphasise the point that it was restoration of independence as it is a political issue for them – however, this is made quite clear already in the article itself, where it is mentioned twice in the small amount of text that there is. Number 57 18:46, 30 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment The other referendums You list asked nothing about restoration. Latvians were asked Are you in favour of a democratic and independent Republic of Latvia, Montenegrin question was Are you for Montenegro to remain a part of a united Yugoslavia. Estonian referendum was specifically on the type of independence (Do you want the restoration of...) while the others You list were not. The title should reflect the question asked, not assumed or be deduced from it. Titles on this kind of articles are long and clunky for example United Kingdom European Union membership referendum, 2016. Klõps (talk) 19:11, 30 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  - The exact wording of the question doesn't mean the topic was not the same. All the European Union membership referendums follow the title "XXX European Union membership referendum" despite the fact that the question was different in different countries – in some countries voters were asked about European Union membership and in others about "accession" to the EU (e.g. Austria) – however, the articles on the latter do not use the word "accession" but stick to the standard formula. Number 57 19:14, 30 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    - Again You miss the point. Accession or joining or what ever, the point of the question is the same, but here the concept of the question is notably different. Klõps (talk) 06:07, 1 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
      - I'm afraid I haven't missed it – the concept of restoring independence is the same for all the countries I mentioned as they were previously independent as well. Number 5 7 08:42, 1 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
        WP:OSE You can't measure everything with the same ruler. In this case the legal continuity was in the referendum question, and is therefore notable to be included in the title. Moreover it is notable historically as in this case there were two fractions. One which supported the restoration and the other that supported declaration of new independence.The last paragraph. Peace. Klõps (talk) 13:00, 1 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
        I'm not sure why you're quoting WP:OSE as it doesn't really support your case – as the WP:OSE essay notes, it is a valid argument in many cases and actually specifically refers to article titles ("these comparisons are important as the encyclopedia should be consistent in the content that it provides or excludes... this applies to article titles as well"). Number 5 7 13:52, 1 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
        I can see that You lack the experience of Debate (the rule of going by the theme of the debate not picking out random words). OSE is Your claim of title consistency supported by but Latvia, but Montenegro etc. No contemporary sources call it by this title. Klõps (talk) 09:20, 3 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: per WP:CONCISE. An independence referendum is a independence referendum, there is really nothing to be gained by adding the words 'restoration of' to the title, the legality of the move under Estonian, USSR, and international law can be discussed in the article to explain the varying legal positions. Ebonelm (talk) 00:01, 2 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I understand this is a contentious issue for Estonian editors. However the current title seems to follow our general format ie Scottish independence referendum, 2014. AusLondonder (talk) 22:16, 2 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Don't want to argue. But just for comparison:

Should Scotland be an independent country?

Do you want the restoration of the national independence and sovereignty of the Republic of Estonia?

The precise wording of the question shows that it is not only about the independence but also the type of independence to end any debate on declaring a new independence. It is two in one referendum, that's the crucial difference the editor who made the original move hinted. Klõps (talk) 12:25, 3 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.