Category talk:Northern Epirotes
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This page should be deleted
[edit]"Northern Epirus" is a recent political concept. This page has no foundation in reality as most of these people never identified themselves as "Northern Epirotes". The page should be deleted and most of these people be simply referred to as Greeks. I will wait for other opinions. Çerçok (talk) 22:36, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
- I think the template should be renamed into "Greeks in Albania", that would allow most of the stuff to remain in it. Northern Epirus indeed concerns a much smaller time frame. Otherwise, most of the figures mentioned will have to be removed, except for Dule, Bollano, Zografos and the like.Alltan (talk) 22:13, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
- Under this rationale Chameria category should be limited to the period that the Camlik kaza existed as a administrative unit. There was no official usage of the term earlier and nearly 90% of the content will be vanished.Alexikoua (talk) 19:48, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
- Comment Chameria is an ethnolinguistic region just like Zagori, Pogon, Himara etc. Chameria is not the Albanian equivalent of Northern Epirus. There is a Cham Albanian dialect, not a Northern Epirote dialect. There were families named Çami much before the era of nationalism started. On the other hand Northern Epirus is first mentioned after the era of nationalism had already started. The Albanian equivalent of Northern Epirus is the concept of "Albanian lands in Greece" ("trevat shqiptare në Greqi") which includes Chameria, Ioannina, Konitsa, Florina, Kastoria and in some cases Arta and Grevena too. That Albanian equivalent is present in schoolbooks, nationalist narratives etc.Alltan (talk) 20:31, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
- I would say I agree with everything if these weren't simple facts that are not subject to agreements or disagreements. The Albanian nationalist narratives have remained present in some schoolbooks and publications, while Greek nationalist narratives have also overwhelmed Wikipedia, to the point falsifying history. I believe there needs to be a vote on the deletion of this page. Çerçok (talk) 22:28, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
- Çerçok, feel free to nominate the page for deletion. "Northern Epirotes" is the same as having a category called "Greater Albanians" or "Iliridans" for Albanians in North Macedonia - it just doesn't make any sense. Either the category should be renamed to Greeks in Albania or it should be deleted entirely. Botushali (talk) 03:29, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- I feel you are completely wrong, Chams is the Albanian equivalent to Northern Epirotes, Greater Albanian is the Albanian equivalent for the Greater Idea, no Northern Epirus which is a historical region. Historical terms in their modern use can also include irredentist connotations, the concept of Chamuria/Northern Epirus should be dealt together in order to secure neutrality.Alexikoua (talk) 20:22, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- Nonsense. Its a nationalist irredentist term concocted in the 19th century to claim the area for Greece. It has a long history of being used as used such. Its last refuge is amongst nationalist Greeks and organisations like Golden Dawn and by some chauvinist individuals who keep it alive in online spaces. Hey, @Alexikoua:, on Chameria the Greek state used the term (as Tsamouria) itself for the area throughout the interwar period. Don't make dodgy claims for false cherry picked equivalences. This category violates WP:NPOV and is long overdue for its removal as its got WP:NATIONALIST all over it. To quote academic Lambros Baltsiotis (footnote 20.[1]) who keeps it short and simple: "Under the term Northern Epirus is recognized, in Greek irredentist, nationalistic bibliography and public discourse, the area of today’s Albania that includes Korçë, Gjirokastër and Himarë."Resnjari (talk) 22:37, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
- Please see WP:FALSEBALANCE. The notion of Northern Epirus is strictly a political concept because it's borders are literally defined by the amount of territory Albania owns in Epirus. If Albania for whatever reason ceded Dropull and Finiq, those territories would by definition stop being a part of Northern Epirus. Alltan (talk) 21:35, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- @Botushali I have not nominated any categories for deletion and I am not sure I now the correct way. Since you agree, maybe you can nominate it, and I will participate in the discussion. Çerçok (talk) 22:34, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- @Çerçok I am not sure whether or not to nominate it for deletion just yet - rather, I might propose it be renamed to "Greeks in Albania" if most people are in agreement. Either way, the current title needs to go - it's simply not the same as Chameria in multiple aspects. Botushali (talk) 03:38, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
- I agree with that. Çerçok (talk) 06:58, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
- @Çerçok I am not sure whether or not to nominate it for deletion just yet - rather, I might propose it be renamed to "Greeks in Albania" if most people are in agreement. Either way, the current title needs to go - it's simply not the same as Chameria in multiple aspects. Botushali (talk) 03:38, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
- I feel you are completely wrong, Chams is the Albanian equivalent to Northern Epirotes, Greater Albanian is the Albanian equivalent for the Greater Idea, no Northern Epirus which is a historical region. Historical terms in their modern use can also include irredentist connotations, the concept of Chamuria/Northern Epirus should be dealt together in order to secure neutrality.Alexikoua (talk) 20:22, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- Comment Chameria is an ethnolinguistic region just like Zagori, Pogon, Himara etc. Chameria is not the Albanian equivalent of Northern Epirus. There is a Cham Albanian dialect, not a Northern Epirote dialect. There were families named Çami much before the era of nationalism started. On the other hand Northern Epirus is first mentioned after the era of nationalism had already started. The Albanian equivalent of Northern Epirus is the concept of "Albanian lands in Greece" ("trevat shqiptare në Greqi") which includes Chameria, Ioannina, Konitsa, Florina, Kastoria and in some cases Arta and Grevena too. That Albanian equivalent is present in schoolbooks, nationalist narratives etc.Alltan (talk) 20:31, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
- Under this rationale Chameria category should be limited to the period that the Camlik kaza existed as a administrative unit. There was no official usage of the term earlier and nearly 90% of the content will be vanished.Alexikoua (talk) 19:48, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose Northern Epirotes have a strong and distinctive identity, notwithstanding persistent Albanian attempts to erase it—as demonstrated on this very page. They are not merely "Epirotes", as they are distinguished by their often traumatic experience of life under Albanian rule in the modern era. Nor are they identical to "Greeks in Albania", since many have migrated to Greece and elsewhere but retain their identity as Northern Epirotes even beyond the first generation. In this respect, they are akin to other Greek subgroups from territories outside the Greek state, e.g. the Μικρασιάτες (Mikrasiátes) or Asia Minor Greeks, whose distinctive identity persists a century after their expulsion from Anatolia. Furthermore, many of those included in this category lived long before Albania had even been conceived as a nation-state. The attempts by Albanian editors here to dismiss the inevitable comparison to the Cham Albanians are risible at best; the term "Chameria" is hardly an innocuous "ethnolinguistic" term, given its strongly irredentist connotations in modern Albanian usage. •ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ• 18:50, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
- Editors are advised to read the past discussions before commenting. Northern Epirus is, and I quote the article:
is a term used mostly by Greeks to refer to those parts of the historical region of Epirus, in the western Balkans, which today are part of Albania.
. If Albania invaded and took over Filiates, Konitsa and Zagori, they would also become "Northern Epirus". A Pontic Greek is still a Pontic Greek no matter if the Pontus region is controlled by Russia, Turkey or Greece. A Griko would still be a Griko even if Calabria is a part of Italy, Spain or Independent. Same goes for Sfakians, Maniots, Cypriotes and the like. "Northern Epirote" is simply a political/nationalist term used by irredentist circles. - Also I will advise you to read WP:CIVIL. Statements such as: . The attempts by Albanian editors here to dismiss the inevitable comparison to the Cham Albanians are risible at best." can be seen as a personal attack. Discussion should continue without ethnonational labeling of other editors. Alltan (talk) 20:06, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
- I am fully aware of the Albanian perspective, and the keen desire of Albanian nationalists to erase the identity of the Northern Epirotes. Your claim that it is "simply a political/nationalist term used by irredentist circles" is patently false. It is by far the most common term used by Greeks of diverse political persuasions to describe the minority in question. Contrast that with "Chameria", which is invariably used in the context of Albanian irredentist claims against Greece. •ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ• 20:45, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
- How "common" it is does not negate the fact its an irredentist/nationalist concept. Chameria was in use by the official Greek government during the interwar period. Does that mean they viewed it as an Albanian territory occupied by Greece? No, because Chameria also exists in Albania. You should take a look at WP:FALSEBALANCE. P.s You should probably answer my arguments. Alltan (talk) 15:56, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
- I am fully aware of the Albanian perspective, and the keen desire of Albanian nationalists to erase the identity of the Northern Epirotes. Your claim that it is "simply a political/nationalist term used by irredentist circles" is patently false. It is by far the most common term used by Greeks of diverse political persuasions to describe the minority in question. Contrast that with "Chameria", which is invariably used in the context of Albanian irredentist claims against Greece. •ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ• 20:45, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
- Editors are advised to read the past discussions before commenting. Northern Epirus is, and I quote the article:
- Oppose The term Northern Epirotes is widely used in the cultural-historical context in Greek history. Ethnic Greeks lived in this region long before the establishment of the Albanian states. Claiming that N.E is an irredentist term while Chameria is not is the epitomy of wp:POV.Alexikoua (talk) 03:26, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
- Ethnic Greeks live there, not northern epirotes, an political made-up term. Çerçok (talk) 06:33, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
- Northern Epirotes do not exist. There are Himariotes, Dropullites, Phoenicians and Pogonians. There is no cultural context to "Northern Epirus". It's simply a term used to signal "a part of the region of Epirus which is occupied by Albania". That's all it is. And while Chameria has garnered irredentist connotations in some cases, it still has that backbone of a unique 3 century long history, culture, dialect, tradition. There is a an authentic Cham people. "Northern Epirus" on other hand is not that. Another example: If, say Italy occupied the region of Preveza, it would translate into "Southern Epirus". If North Macedonia took over the Ioannina prefecture, it would become "Eastern Epirus". And so on. It is entirely dictated by (irredentist) geopolitics. It has to go. Alltan (talk) 16:04, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
- Support changing to title from Northern Epirotes to Greeks in Albania. This is an invented category. Çerçok (talk) 06:46, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
- Comment: Most of those persons lived before the establishment of Albania, i.e. pre-1912. The most usual title is to use the Greek historical region, i.e. Northern Epirus. Under the same rationale "Cham Albanians" should change to "Albanian from Thesprotia".Alexikoua (talk) 00:23, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
- The problem with that is the fact the political state of Albania (1912) actually is older than the political concept of Northern Epirus (1914). It's chronologically impossible for a term which is supposed to describe a region under the occupation of a foreign state to predate that same state. Or did they metaphysically know in advance that those exact territories would not be part of Greece? Alltan (talk) 00:50, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
- The relative age of the respective political concepts is trivial, in my view. Otherwise, the "unique 3 century long history" of "Chameria" is comprehensively and thoroughly trumped by the unique three-millennia-long history of Epirus. While the specific term Northern Epirus may have been coined in response to the region's annexation by Albania, the locals have been calling themselves Epirotes for millennia. And, precisely because of their unique experience of Albanian rule, they have developed an equally unique identity that is distinguished from that of the Epirotes south of the border. Their distinctiveness is also reflected in their adoption of certain aspects of Albanian culture, including the Albanian language. They are not, and do not view themselves as, ordinary Greeks. This is first and foremost a matter of self-identification, and if they identify themselves as Northern Epirotes, that is (or should be) good enough for Wikipedia. •ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ• 15:52, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
- Feel free to create either an "Epirotes" category, or (if sources allow it) categories for Dropullites, Himariotes etc. Of course not all Himariotes or Dropullites are Greek, so it would have to be akin to the "Souliotes" category, which has both the original Albanian Souliotes as well as their Greek descendants (to a point). I will state again that the concept of a "Northern Epirote ethnographic region/culture/dialect" is not supported in mainstream academia. p.s Northern Epirus isn't even a geographic term. It includes Korytsa, a city in the region of Macedonia. So again, it is nothing but a political concept. Akin mostly to concepts such as Ilirida. I will go ahead and remove the category. For guys like Sachinis, Zografos etc we already have a properly fitting category: Category:Northern Epirus independence activists. Alltan (talk) 20:15, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
- There is no consensus to remove the category. Your assertion that "it is nothing but a political concept" is merely that, an assertion based on your own biases. And even if it were the case—it isn't, but that's irrelevant—there are plenty of purely political categories on Wikipedia, e.g. Category:Albanian nationalists. •ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ• 10:28, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
- Consensus does not mean unanimity. You can accuse me of biases all you want (even though you were warned by admins not to do so), the fact of the matter is my "bias" aligns with modern Western scholarship, as well as the Northern Epirus article itself. Also I would like to point out a discussion similar to this: Template talk:Greeks in Albania, where it was agreed that it is a politcal/irredentist term, and that it should no be used in the template. Alltan (talk) 21:02, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
- It may not mean unanimity, but it certainly doesn't mean a group of editors colluding and edit-warring to impose a particular nationalist narrative. And yes, I've seen the discussion there and who voted for the move. All the usual suspects. ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ (talk) 16:15, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
- Consensus does not mean unanimity. You can accuse me of biases all you want (even though you were warned by admins not to do so), the fact of the matter is my "bias" aligns with modern Western scholarship, as well as the Northern Epirus article itself. Also I would like to point out a discussion similar to this: Template talk:Greeks in Albania, where it was agreed that it is a politcal/irredentist term, and that it should no be used in the template. Alltan (talk) 21:02, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
- There is no consensus to remove the category. Your assertion that "it is nothing but a political concept" is merely that, an assertion based on your own biases. And even if it were the case—it isn't, but that's irrelevant—there are plenty of purely political categories on Wikipedia, e.g. Category:Albanian nationalists. •ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ• 10:28, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
- Feel free to create either an "Epirotes" category, or (if sources allow it) categories for Dropullites, Himariotes etc. Of course not all Himariotes or Dropullites are Greek, so it would have to be akin to the "Souliotes" category, which has both the original Albanian Souliotes as well as their Greek descendants (to a point). I will state again that the concept of a "Northern Epirote ethnographic region/culture/dialect" is not supported in mainstream academia. p.s Northern Epirus isn't even a geographic term. It includes Korytsa, a city in the region of Macedonia. So again, it is nothing but a political concept. Akin mostly to concepts such as Ilirida. I will go ahead and remove the category. For guys like Sachinis, Zografos etc we already have a properly fitting category: Category:Northern Epirus independence activists. Alltan (talk) 20:15, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
- The relative age of the respective political concepts is trivial, in my view. Otherwise, the "unique 3 century long history" of "Chameria" is comprehensively and thoroughly trumped by the unique three-millennia-long history of Epirus. While the specific term Northern Epirus may have been coined in response to the region's annexation by Albania, the locals have been calling themselves Epirotes for millennia. And, precisely because of their unique experience of Albanian rule, they have developed an equally unique identity that is distinguished from that of the Epirotes south of the border. Their distinctiveness is also reflected in their adoption of certain aspects of Albanian culture, including the Albanian language. They are not, and do not view themselves as, ordinary Greeks. This is first and foremost a matter of self-identification, and if they identify themselves as Northern Epirotes, that is (or should be) good enough for Wikipedia. •ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ• 15:52, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
- The problem with that is the fact the political state of Albania (1912) actually is older than the political concept of Northern Epirus (1914). It's chronologically impossible for a term which is supposed to describe a region under the occupation of a foreign state to predate that same state. Or did they metaphysically know in advance that those exact territories would not be part of Greece? Alltan (talk) 00:50, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose Northern Epirotes have a strong and distinctive identity, notwithstanding persistent Albanian attempts to erase it—as demonstrated on this very page. They are not merely "Epirotes", as they are distinguished by their often traumatic experience of life under Albanian rule in the modern era. Nor are they identical to "Greeks in Albania", since many have migrated to Greece and elsewhere but retain their identity as Northern Epirotes even beyond the first generation. In this respect, they are akin to other Greek subgroups from territories outside the Greek state, e.g. the Μικρασιάτες (Mikrasiátes) or Asia Minor Greeks, whose distinctive identity persists a century after their expulsion from Anatolia. Furthermore, many of those included in this category lived long before Albania had even been conceived as a nation-state. The attempts by Albanian editors here to dismiss the inevitable comparison to the Cham Albanians are risible at best; the term "Chameria" is hardly an innocuous "ethnolinguistic" term, given its strongly irredentist connotations in modern Albanian usage. •ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ• 18:50, 20 August 2022 (UTC)