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Battles involving "Russia" post-1917

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Hi @Mellk: This is a good question. I had been wondering about that myself, and I hadn't yet come up with a solution. There wasn't really a "Russian Empire" anymore after the October Revolution, and it might not be correct to call the remnants who reorganised themselves as the so-called White movement "Russian Empire" or "Imperials" anymore. Should we perhaps set up a category tree for Category:Battles involving the Russian State (1918–1920), as a subcategory of Category:Russian State (1918–1920)? The Russian State (1918–1920) was the most encompassing of all post-1917 "White Russian" polities, it probably applies to most battles of the Civil War involving White formations and units. A year ago, I came up with a similar solution for Category:Battles involving Soviet Russia (1917–1922) and Category:Wars involving Soviet Russia (1917–1922), and that seems to work pretty well to bridge the gap between the founding of the RSFSR on 7 November 1917 and the USSR on 30 December 1922. What do you think? NLeeuw (talk) 15:34, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure, like the Russian Soviet Republic there were other state formations that were at different times included or not included under the Russian State. Until 1918 this was the Russian Republic and it does not really make sense to me to separate them. For World War I the categories are left as Russian because it does not make sense to separate Russian Empire and Russian Republic. The same can be said for the various separatist/pro-independence states during the civil war. We also have to be careful not to overcategorize. Mellk (talk) 15:49, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that it will be complicated to do, more complicated than with the RSFSR. But it would also be strange to categorise these Civil War battles as involving "Russia", which would imply the Russian Federation, which wouldn't emerge until 1991. You know what? I'll try to make a list of battles that would involve the Russian State (1918–1920) as such, and see if that would be enough for a category. I'll make separate lists of battles involving White forces which were non-Russian State forces. That should give us some insight into how viable this would be, or if it would create an overcategorised mess. NLeeuw (talk) 15:57, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Personally I would not create such categories and not categorize such pages. Category:Battles of the Russian Civil War by country for example does not make sense IMO since we have a Soviet Russia subcategory but the other countries do not distinguish between different factions and state formations. For Finland example there were Finnish Reds versus Finnish Whites who each proclaimed their own states. Same goes for the wars by country categories. Finnish Civil War includes Category:Wars involving Finland? I don't think that would make sense? I would rather just include such pages under Category:Battles of the Russian Civil War or any other subcat of this (without trying to throw countries in the mix). Fundamentally for Russia it is just Bolsheviks and allies against Whites and allies. Mellk (talk) 16:16, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also, Soviet Russia is not the name of a country. The Bolsheviks overthrew the provisional government of the Russian Republic but did not change this name, so there was no new state here, only a new government. The name Russian Soviet Republic was later adopted in early 1918. Mellk (talk) 15:58, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, strictly speaking it was the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic (RSFSR) from July 1918 onwards, but that would create very long catnames, so we decided upon Category:Battles involving Soviet Russia (1917–1922). Similarly, we could go for pragmatic names for "White Russia", such as Category:Battles involving White Russia, Category:Battles involving the White Army, or something like that.
Armed Forces of South Russia has a pretty concise list of its engagements in the infobox:
Hypothetically, Category:Battles involving the Armed Forces of South Russia would thus give us a category with 18 items. I think that would be doable. It would also possible to make it a subcategory of a Category:Battles involving the White Army, which could also contain other subcategories by other Category:Military units and formations of White Russia (Russian Civil War). NLeeuw (talk) 16:18, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, rather than trying to do former countries I think it would make more sense to include armies instead and have this as a subcat as I mentioned in my last comment. Mellk (talk) 16:21, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. It was the various military formations and units who were doing the fighting, not so much the "Russian State", certainly not for the entire period of the Civil War. But I'm not sure whether every unit deserves its own category. E.g. it's a good point that "Finland" was for a time divided the Finnish Civil War (27 January 1918–15 May 1918), so which side really represents "Finland"? The Red Guards (Finland) were involved in at least 4 wars: Russian Revolution of 1905, Finnish Civil War, Estonian War of Independence, and Heimosodat (Kinship Wars). Maybe not enough for a "wars involving" category, but probably enough for a "battles involving" category. NLeeuw (talk) 16:30, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Good idea. Not to mention that these states were only partially recognized or unrecognized and sometimes were in union/existed as an autonomy within others at different times. There are just far too many short-lived states. Mellk (talk) 16:47, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll just start with Category:Battles involving the Armed Forces of South Russia for now then. Category:Battles of the Russian Civil War involving the Czechoslovak Legion has of the Russian Civil War in the catname, which is fair because it also fought in WW1 before it, but for the AFSR that would be redundant. (Technically the last three battles were part of the Ukrainian War of Independence, but that is in turn widely considered to be part of the Russian Civil War, so no need to put of the Russian Civil War in the catname here). NLeeuw (talk) 16:52, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
OK, sounds good to me. Of course, we can also add other parent categories if they are not already included in the Russian Civil War category for other new categories. Mellk (talk) 16:59, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How does this look, Category:Battles involving the Armed Forces of South Russia?
I also ran into Category:Battles of the Russian Civil War involving Ukraine, which is often unhelpful, as it is unclear who is supposed to represent "Ukraine" (just like "Russia" or "Finland" at this time). It usually is the Category:Ukrainian People's Republic (UNR) or Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic (URSR), but it could also be one of its soviet Ukraine republic predecessors, or the Category:West Ukrainian People's Republic with its Category:Ukrainian Galician Army.... I suppose we should follow the AFSR example here, and not create a separate category until we can populate it with at least 10 items. This is probably doable for the UNR and URSR, but we'll see... NLeeuw (talk) 17:23, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Looks like a good approach. I think Category:Battles of the Russian Civil War by country would be fine to include Germany etc. (we probably do not need to distinguish German Empire and Weimar Republic etc) but it does not really work for Finland, Ukraine etc. We should continue with belligerent parties/formations in those cases if there is enough to populate them. Thanks. Mellk (talk) 17:31, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Glad we agree. I'll see what I can do, and will note any issues I run into here for discussion. NLeeuw (talk) 17:37, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, I've gotten a lot further. The AFSR cat now has 26 items, and probably more on the way. I've included operations of the Don Army in it as well. But some White Army formations were certainly not part of it, but separate. These include:
The Russian Army (1919) article seems to try to have an overarching scope for all White formations, but it is largely WP:UNSOURCED and seems WP:OR. Nominally, Kolchak may have been in control, but in practice, these formations seem to have operated autonomously, in separate fronts of the war, with their own leaders and ideological tendencies.
I've temporarily put all ambiguous articles in Category:White movement for now, to await further diffusion. I see that ruwiki has a ru:Категория:Сражения Белого движения (Category:Battles of the White Movement), which is convenient, but I also think it is a bit too arbitrary and OR. The White movement was not a unified whole, but a catch-all of anti-Bolshevik anti-separatist groupings, sometimes infighting. We would be wise to only categorise by identifiable military formations instead of making things up.
I've also added a lot more to Category:Battles involving Soviet Russia (1917–1922). There seem to be very few battles in which a Ukrainian soviet republic is involved independently of the RSFSR; it usually works as a mere satellite. By contrast, the West Ukrainian People's Republic (WUPR) and Ukrainian People's Republic (UPR) seem to fight completely separate wars, one against Poland and Austria, the other mostly against the Bolsheviks and Whites. I've got just under 10 battles for the WUPR so far, so that cat will have to wait. I can't just put them under Category:Battles involving the Ukrainian People's Republic, that would be ahistorical.
We should take a careful look at Category:Battles of World War I involving Russia, as all battles after the February Revolution and especially October Revolution take up an ambiguous place here. If we find enough, there may be room for a Category:Battles involving the Russian Republic, but I haven't got many yet. NLeeuw (talk) 23:19, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, we probably shouldn't lump all of them under the White movement category. We can include the White movement category as a parent category instead if applicable. In regards to Category:Battles of World War I involving Russia, I do not think there is enough to populate a new category for Russian Republic. The Kerensky offensive is definitely notable but, technically speaking, this would still fall under the Russian Empire as the status of the monarchy was not resolved yet until later in the year when the Russian Republic was proclaimed. Unfortunately it looks like there is a mistake in some of those articles conflating the provisional government with the republic. Mellk (talk) 05:12, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah I was worried that might be the case. Could we group them all together as Russian Provisional Government though? That would cover 6 March to 7 November 1917. But that would still leave a gap. The Russian Republic lasted from 1 September 1917 until 19 January 1918, so we would have to exclude Kerensky–Krasnov uprising, Junker mutiny and Capture of Trabzon (1918) from RPG; that is only RR. That means we could fill a Category:Battles involving the Russian Provisional Government with 12 items so far. NLeeuw (talk) 07:00, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Mellk I've done a lot of information gathering below, which hopefully helps clear a lot of things up. I'm afraid we will barely be able to fill another category with at least 10 items involving a specific White provisional government or military formation or unit. The loyalty and hierarchy of and between various groups and people and organisations was a huge mess. E.g. we could claim the Bermontians were nominally loyal to Kolchak, but in practice they fought for the German Empire, which Kolchak still wanted to fight against.
I'm tempted to lump them all together anyway, under the general denominator Category:Battles involving White Army formations, and make Category:Battles involving the Armed Forces of South Russia a subcategory of it. But wouldn't that be WP:OR / WP:ARBITRARYCAT? And should we count the Provisional Russian Government and Russian Republic under that as well, or only all post-19 Jan 1918 "White Army" stuff? What do you think? NLeeuw (talk) 12:23, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The provisional government is just the interim government, not the state. It overlaps with both Russian Empire and Russian Republic, so this does not make sense to me. For a general White Army formations category, I think it depends on sources. If they can be considered as such by RS (without changing allegiances) then we can include them there. Those that can not be safely considered as such, then we should not put them there. But I think for most of the formations, whether they belonged to the Whites or Reds is defining. Mellk (talk) 11:56, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. I'll see if I can find RS for the formations involved that call them "White Army/Armies". It's a bit of a catch-all term, but sometimes it may have to do. E.g. Capture of Kiev by the White Army is a bit ambiguous and generalised. Strictly speaking, it was the AFSR, but replacing "the White Army" by the Armed Forces of South Russia will make for a very long title, and just South Russia will probably raise lots of questions for readers. But by my knowledge, no other White Army formation ever captured Kiev, so the risk of confusion is minimal. NLeeuw (talk) 14:31, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Would it be okay with you to create a Category:Battles involving the Volunteer Army? I think we've got enough items for that. After January 1919, it may overlap with the AFSR; we could decide to just let them overlap, or to limit this new category to pre-January 1919 battles? NLeeuw (talk) 19:43, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I think that works. I don't have a strong opinion on whether to limit this to pre-1919. I guess it depends on if any articles continue to mention Volunteer Army separately but it looks like it they just mention South Russia/Russian State overall e.g. Advance on Moscow (1919) and Orel–Kursk operation. Also I appreciate the breakdown below, thanks. Mellk (talk) 19:58, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Alright  Done. Not sure if I'm entirely happy with it; there is a lot of overlap with AFSR as expected, but also the "What links here" tool really helped finding more battles. I'm done for the day, perhaps I'll continue tomorrow. NLeeuw (talk) 20:53, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Battles involving White Army formations and polities

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Dates in New Style unless otherwise stated.

The Russian Army (1917) was the formal successor of the Imperial Russian Army. It served the Provisional Russian Government (March–September 1917); the Russian Republic (September 1917 – January 1918); and the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic (January–March 1918). The Caucasus Front (Russian Republic) from April 1917 to March 1918 served the Provisional Govt and Russian Republic.

Battles involving the Russian Provisional Government / Russian Republic under Kerensky, and later White polities:

Russian Provisional Government & Russian Empire

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6 March 1917 – 31 August 1917

  1. February Revolution
  2. Battle of the Crna Bend (1917)
  3. Kerensky offensive (June 1917 offensive)
  4. July Days
  5. Polubotkivtsi uprising 17 July
  6. Battle of Krechowce 24 July 1917
  7. Battle of Mărăști 22 July – 1 August 1917
  8. Third Battle of Oituz 8–22 August 1917

Russian Provisional Government & Russian Republic

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1 September 1917 – 7 November 1917

  1. Caucasus campaign involvement by the Caucasus Front (Russian Republic) April 1917 – March 1918
  2. Battle of Mărășești 6 August – 3 September 1917
  3. Kornilov affair 10–13 September 1917
  4. Operation Albion 12–20 October 1917
  5. Battle of Moon Sound 16 October – 3 November 1917
  6. October Revolution 7 November 1917
  7. Storming of the Winter Palace 7 November 1917

Russian Republic only

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8 November 1917 – 19 January 1918

  1. Kerensky–Krasnov uprising 8–13 November 1917
  2. Junker mutiny 11 November 1917
  3. Semyonov's Rebellion November–December 1917 Grigory Mikhaylovich Semyonov
  4. Donbas-Don operation 8 January – 25 February 1918 (Volunteer Army & Don Host)
  5. Battle of Galați 12–22 January 1918

20 January 1918 – 22 September 1918

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Various White Army formations and provisional governments with unclear loyalities and hierarchies

Various battles with unclear participants

  1. Romanian military intervention in Bessarabia 19 January – 8 March 1918: ? (Russian Army (1917) > RSFSR?)
  2. Operation Faustschlag 18 February – 3 March 1918: ? (Russian Army (1917) > RSFSR?)
  3. Ice March 22 February – 13 May 1918: Volunteer Army
  4. Steppe March 25 February – 18 May 1918: Don Army
  5. Capture of Trabzon (1918) 24–25 February 1918: ? (Russian Army (1917) > RSFSR?)
  6. Iași–Don March 11 March – 7 May 1918: Volunteer Army
  7. Mughan clashes March 1918 to August 1919: Provisional Military Dictatorship of Mughan (allied with Denikin/Volunteer Army/AFSR)
  8. 8–13 April 1918 ru:Штурм Екатеринодара (март 1918) Storming of Yekaterinodar Volunteer Army (Kornilov killed)
  9. Kuban Offensive 22 June – November 1918: Volunteer Army
  10. Sochi conflict 29 June 1918 – 24 May 1919: Volunteer Army until 8 Jan 1919, then AFSR
  11. Battle of Tsaritsyn July 1918 – January 1920: Don Republic, Kuban Republic, Volunteer Army until 8 Jan 1919, then AFSR
  12. Battle of Kurdamir 7–10 July 1918: Lazar Bicherakhov forces
  13. Battle of Baku 26 August 1918 – 14 September 1918: Lazar Bicherakhov forces
  14. Battle of Binagadi 26 August 1918 – 1 September 1918: Lazar Bicherakhov forces
  15. VUSO Arkhangelsk Coup 2 August 1918 by Nikolai Tchaikovsky and Georgi Chaplin of Supreme Administration of the Northern Region (VUSO)
  16. VPSO Arkhangelsk Coup 6 September 1918 by Georgi Chaplin (Provisional Government of the Northern Region, VPSO) against Nikolai Tchaikovsky (VUSO); in October 1918 VPSO recognised PA-RG

Russian State (1918–1920)

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23 September 1918 – 7 February 1920

Governments of the Russian State

Military formations loyal to the PA-RG / Kolchak

Battles

  1. Kolchak Coup 18 November 1918
  2. British campaign in the Baltic (1918–1919): 28 November 1918 – 4 November 1919
  3. Spring offensive of the White Army: 4 March – 29 April 1919
  4. Eastern Front counteroffensive: 28 April – July 1919
  5. Petrograd campaign: ru:Наступление Северного корпуса Advance of the Northern Corps 13 May – 26 August 1919 Northwestern Army (Russia)
  6. Petrograd campaign: Battle of Petrograd 28 September – 14 November 1919 (ru:Оборона Петрограда Defence of Petrograd 13 May – 14 November 1919) Northwestern Army (Russia)
  7. Lithuanian Wars of Independence#War against the Bermontians 26 July – 15 December 1919 West Russian Volunteer Army (Bermontians)
  8. Latvian War of Independence#Bermondt offensive October–December 1919 West Russian Volunteer Army (Bermontians)
  9. Battle of Jelgava (1919): 15–21 November 1919 West Russian Volunteer Army (Bermontians)
  10. Great Siberian Ice March: 14 November 1919 – March 1920
  11. Chita Operations 10 April – 31 October 1920 Far Eastern Army
South Russia (1919–1920) & Armed Forces of South Russia
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8 January 1919 – 22 November 1920, nominally part of the Russian State of Kolchak

Category:Battles involving the Armed Forces of South Russia
Army of Wrangel 28 March 1920 – 16 November 1920 (successor to the Volunteer Army and some other White Army units)

Provisional Priamurye Government / White Rebel Army

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1921–1923, successor to Eastern Okraina / Far Eastern Army led by Grigory Mikhaylovich Semyonov

NLeeuw (talk) 00:09, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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