Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia Signpost/2020-04-26/Interview

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This is not regarding the Q&A, which is obviously an opinion piece of the subject at hand, but regarding the first paragraph, which should be neutrally worded and introducing the subject of the Q&A. This sentence is not worded in a neutral manner, "The good news is he survived, but unfortunately he failed the RfA." The word "unfortunately" is not needed, and presents a bias in that RFA's are mere rubber stamps. You should have just said that the RFA failed. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 19:09, 26 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sir Joseph: I have amended the the article accordingly. Regards, Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 19:23, 26 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Do not edit material published under a byline. If you want a change to the non-answer portions, ask the author (Puddleglum2.0) or the editor in chief (Smallbones). If you want a change to the answers, ask me. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:17, 26 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In general we don't make corrections, unless it's a simple copyedit near the publication time, after publication without checking with the editor-in-chief. When I first saw this, I thought it was ok ... but what if Guy took this as "it was not unfortunate that he failed the RfA." I doubt that was intended but he might have taken it that way now. So I'll leave in the "unfortunately". To the very first commenter, @Sir Joseph:, we allow ourselves polite comments like "unfortunately he did not pass the RfA" without considering ourselves mad POV pushers. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 21:59, 26 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I understand your point, but that is the whole point of an RFA, to get the support and oppose and then see where consensus takes you. You're a newspaper, you're supposed to report that the RFA didn't pass. This interview is his lookback at the process and his opinions on it. You are basically giving your newspaper's opinion that it was unfortunate that he didn't pass his RFA. That's all I said, that it was not a neutral statement, it has nothing to do with being mad POV pushers. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 22:08, 26 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You and I have a completely different view on the meaning of the word "unfortunately". In my opinion, if the worst editor in the world ran for RfA and was rightly shot down 1000 to 0, that would still be unfortunate -- unfortunate that a thousand people's time was wasted, unfortunate that the editor wasn't a better person, and unfortunate that someone with a better chance of winning did not run instead. Sir Joseph, I know that you hold a grudge against me because I once disagreed with you on a content dispute and the consensus of editors was in my favor. You got your opportunity to express your opinion of me in your RfA !vote. Coming here and picking a fight over the word "unfortunately" is, IMO, a form of grave dancing. I would strongly prefer to not have any further interaction with you. --Guy Macon (talk) 00:19, 27 April 2020 (UTC) I have ~~stricken~~ my comment and sincerely regret interacting with Sir Joseph in any way. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:29, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In your hypothetical case, then it would be "fortunately" the person didn't pass RFA. In the paragraph above, the sentence says that you unfortunately did not pass RFA, which is editorializing the RFA. (Also, you didn't just once disagree with me, you also hounded me and accused me of being a sockmaster, and I don't think that's the only reason people didn't want you as an admin. Finally if you don't want anything to do with me, simply don't respond to my posts, as you were supposed to do, with the unofficial IBAN you agreed to.) People are reading this Signpost, and they want the intro to be neutral, not everything is about you, the Q&A is, but the intro should be as neutral as possible and we should be encouraging people to express their opinions at RFA, whether it's support or oppose, and if we tell people that their oppose votes are the wrong votes, that is bad. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 01:03, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Fwiw, as someone who did not participate in the RfA, I read the "unfortunately" at the top to have an implied "for him" after it, so I didn't see it as an issue. But I could see how others might have interpreted it differently.

Regarding the more general question of editing after publication, I've noticed before that the Signpost has different standards than a normal area of Wikipedia. This seems appropriate since it is a newspaper, but since it is also unusual for Wikipedia, Smallbones, would you consider drafting an edit notice to go on all Signpost articles explaining what the policy is? {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 18:10, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

For now, let me just quote About (The Signpost): "We welcome post-publication edits such as grammatical and spelling corrections to articles, subject to review by the Signpost team; we value our readers' efforts to correct simple mistakes and provide needed clarifications." That should be read in the context of us being a newspaper - we have a deadline and publish on a specific date, we then do not update articles, other than corrections and minor copyediting; we have bylined authors - it is not a joint communally written constantly updated article like a mainspace Wikipedia article. Rather, each Signpost article should be seen as a snapshot of a particular time, written by a particular person or team, with input from the overall Signpost collective. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 19:38, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I would disagree with the advice to editors considering RfA, as an editor who has almost exclusively edited in admin-adjacent and/or contentious areas and didn't get much flak for it at RfA. What may be more accurate is that participating at WP:FRINGEN is a powder keg for a future RfA, given that the nature of disputes there makes it both difficult to assume good faith (unlike a politically controversial topic like I/P where an editor can recognize that the other side simply has a different view), and editors on the wrong side often stick around and may not be considered persona-non-grata by the community (unlike UPEs) _signed,Rosguill ^talk 22:16, 26 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hope you're fully recovered Guy. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:12, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Let me give you a rundown of what it is like after you spend a couple of minutes with no heartbeat.

I came to in a hospital bed. Air was going in and out of my lungs, but I wasn't doing the breathing. The respirator tube going down my throat was. You know that feeling in your legs after a long-distance run? That's lactate buildup, and if you overdo it you are sore the next day. When your heart stops the lactate builds up everywhere and it doesn't stop increasing. So everything was sore. It even hurt to move my eyeballs (which you pretty much can't stop doing). Even my tongue was sore. My major muscles were so sore that I literally could not lift my arm and could barely lift a finger. And my chest muscles were too sore to do any breathing.

A physical therapist explained that my muscles should recover, and they did. after a day I was able to breathe without the tube. After two days I could lift my arm enough to get a sip of water without help. After four days I could roll on my side (you don't realize how much you miss that until you can't do it). As the days went by I was able to sit up with help, then stand for a few seconds, then a couple of steps using a walker, and so on. I was released when I could get out of bed and walk 20 or 30 feet between rests.

Now that I am home I am building up my stamina, walking farther each day. And I can now sit at my computer for 40 to 50 minutes (I get up and walk every 15). So I haven't fully recovered, but I am getting better every day.

The best part of all of this? All of the well wishes on my talk page. They really lifted my spirits. --Guy Macon (talk) 03:54, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't take part in the RfA for a number of reasons, but a heart attack - or anything life threatening - takes a massive precedent over what happens on this small corner of the web. I'm so glad you are ok, Guy, and have no further complications. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 09:48, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I did not take part in the RfA either; the only two I have participated in were FRAMGATE related. I voted Support for Floquenbeam and Fram because I favored a return to the status quo. That said, I think WP:PITCHFORKS should link to RfA. It is highly visible and attracts all sorts of people that express their opinions on how the website should be run. The unfortunate aspect of it is that I don't think there is a clear alternative process that would encourage civil discourse. Of course, civil discourse occurs during RfA as well. I wish that Admin status was really encouraged as 'not a big deal.' Where the 'big deal' aspect of Adminning comes into play is when consensus is determined. But, I digress.

I am happy that Guy Macon is recovering and not taking the failure of an RfA too seriously- life is too short to stress over a website. I wish him a full recovery and encourage kindness all around, especially with the challenging environment that all of us are experiencing today. Jip Orlando (talk) 15:57, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion of RfA as a whole has me wondering what the end-game for this is going to be... I can see at least two possible outcomes, both obviously terrible:

Administrators continue burning out faster than they are elected, until eventually en-WP becomes reliant on meta:SRP for a lack of local bureaucrats. CAT:AB is (on average) growing faster than it shrinks, in my estimation, so we already have a rather serious problem (for a smaller-scale example, RfD discussions are now semi-regularly relisted by involved admins because there aren't enough uninvolved admins to close out old discussions in a reasonable amount of time). This would just be the logical conclusion of doing nothing to solve it.
The WMF decides that the above outcome is unacceptable, and declares a new RfA process by fiat. The community hates this, but is unable to reach consensus about whether the WMF's process is actually better or worse than the existing process, so the WMF just waits out the resulting "no consensus" RFC, and wins by default.

Again, I dislike both outcomes, but I don't see all that many viable alternatives. At some point, something is going to have to give. --N Y Kevin 05:15, 27 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]