Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia Signpost/2012-12-31/From the editor
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Yes! Civility for all in 2013! GoingBatty (talk) 05:38, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
- There's actually a reason that isn't linked here. The current civility 'policy' is broken; I think everyone can see that. I'm just hoping that even though the policy is broken and no one can agree on a way to fix it (assuming there is a way), editors will take it upon themselves to improve the amount of civil, productive, interaction. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 05:48, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
- Amen to that, brother. Amen. TomStar81 (Talk) 07:20, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
- Hi Ed! Sorry for being naive, but I'm interested in knowing what you think is broken? The way WP:CIVIL is written? Editors choosing not to follow it? Lack of enforcement? Something else? Thanks! GoingBatty (talk) 01:24, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
Sociologically speaking, civility is a fundamental problem with any project like Wikipedia because it is based on a culture of honor (vs. a culture of law). This sounds odd given all the "laws" (rules) we have, but the reason is there is no good structure in place to enforce the rules of civility - there are no police to call, we are mostly left to defend ourselves, which by definition is a culture of honor. This creates the Gladiatorial atmosphere (less romantic: a poor kid from the projects who shoots someone over a pair of sneakers). It might be possible to fix but I suspect a large body of editors would resist a police contingent that enforces civility rules. Cultures of honor, once established, are notoriously difficult to change into cultures of law because many people resist it since don't trust the enforcers whom they see as impinging on their freedoms. -- Green Cardamom (talk) 09:06, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
- Or, stated more bluntly, Wikipedia is like the Confederate States of America. Many of its soldiers actually thought it was about protecting their freedoms, brainwashed by the prevailing culture of honor. Time to replace the outdated model of Wikipedia administration we have now with a new one that's not stuck in the 19th century. Wer900 • talk 17:28, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
Hear! Hear! --Surturz (talk) 09:59, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
- What exactly are you "Hear Hearing"? Green's statement seems like rather depressing analysis of the current state of affairs. Are you "Hear Hearing" that it should change or stay the same? Kaldari (talk) 10:43, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
- I'm applauding the editorial. Indenting was wrong, which I've now fixed. --Surturz (talk) 12:55, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
- One of the problems is the culture of anonymity that the Internet has bred on forums, blogs, and collaborative sites. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 11:33, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
- Or it just has become an accepted culture that people haven't felt empowered to challenge. That something is a truth does not make it either relevant or necessary to be spoken. We lifted the quality of the standards of our articles, and we can certainly also lift the standard of behaviour, contributions and respect. Aim high, not low. Don't tolerate it and call it out for what it is, "bullying", rude and unnecessary. — billinghurst sDrewth 11:56, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
- Anonymity is not at fault. Whenever any Wikimedia "Office Action" is received by any community, these are hardly anonymous, but they are as rude as anything I have encountered in many years of wiki-work. If our "mothership" can do nothing more than sweet PR talk (with loads of bullshit bingo possibilities) or rude orders, there's no wonder the rest of the project is not that different. --FA2010 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 12:53, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks for this, Ed. Needs to be said, and read. The Interior (Talk) 13:32, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
- The idea that civility problems are getting worse needs a big fat {{fact}} tag. It shows a lack of historical perspective, as far as I can see. Jimbo was talking about stamping out incivility in 2007 (yes really), at a time when the community was hardly ready to accept that. My feeling is that it took three or four years for the penny to drop. There were green shoots of community renewal in 2011, in my view. There are certainly some immature attitudes still around to incivility. It seems to me to be less used for disruptive purposes than in the past, but still to be used just to be rude. It was the disruptive use of incivility in the past that made it hard to sanction ("I'm uncivil but I'm a tribune of the people"). With some dishonourable exceptions, I think this argument, at last, is no longer washing. Charles Matthews (talk) 16:54, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
- I think one of the main issues with civility in the past year or so is that it's had a chilling effect on certain areas of Wikipedia. For example, I know plenty of editors who no longer participate at RfA or FAC due to incivility issues. Kaldari (talk) 22:56, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
- And to be fair, I did give a nod to the past when I said "This is far from a new trend ..." :-) Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 00:33, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
- And another "big fat {{fact}} tag" is needed on the statement that this issue is "perhaps most visible in the featured article process". Not so, whatsoever. What has been true is that rampant socking at FAC and FAR has led to a decline in the quality of reviews, and has affected nominations at Todays' featured article requests, but to my knowledge, socking and civility are not necessarily related, and the civility problem is most certainly not worse on the FA pages then it is in the cesspits of Wikipedia such as ANI. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:04, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
- I saw a quote on MetaFilter by someone who was (obviously) not a Wikipedia contributor, "There is nothing more grim and humorless than a hard core Wikipedia editor". Normally I'd defend it but didn't know what to say without looking grim and humorless. BTW Charles I agree things are better now. I also agree Featured
EgoArticle Candidate seems to create a lot of problems. -- Green Cardamom (talk) 06:13, 3 January 2013 (UTC)- "This quote being so grim and humorless, you have to be a really hard core one. Oh wait..." :-) Xentyr (talk) 10:26, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
- Time to bring in a 'no dickheads' policy IMO. Nick-D (talk) 06:33, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
- We've had rules against this forever, see WP:Don't be intentionally obnoxious. It's time for admins and arbs to enforce them. Smallbones(smalltalk) 01:01, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, I agree. The problem is that there's a large body of editors who are prepared to excuse away gross incivility and make the lives of admins who try to enforce basic standards miserable (eg, the bizarre argument several editors were putting forward a while ago that there were circumstances in which calling a stranger a 'cunt' during a mild disagreement was perfectly OK). Nick-D (talk) 07:52, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
- Well, if you object to the UK use of "cunt" and wish to raise standards, you could block yourself for your "no dickheads" vulgarity. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 10:45, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, I agree. The problem is that there's a large body of editors who are prepared to excuse away gross incivility and make the lives of admins who try to enforce basic standards miserable (eg, the bizarre argument several editors were putting forward a while ago that there were circumstances in which calling a stranger a 'cunt' during a mild disagreement was perfectly OK). Nick-D (talk) 07:52, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
- The statements about cancer were made to refute a disruptive editor's claim that men could not grow breasts. Like progesterone, oestrogen is often present in men with testicular cancer, and it is one of the hormones screened in surveillance of survivors of testicular cancer. Without cancer, men do have tits, which can lactate. Transexualism is increasingly common in the US.
- Perhaps a mea culpa would aid Ed in writing a persuasive article. What has he learned since telling an editor who just called a woman a bitch to not stoop to her level? Kiefer.Wolfowitz 18:31, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
- Your comment did not in help any discussion in any way, nor would it. Also, it's interesting that you bring that up, given that I was hoping to reduce drama and tension by quickly removing the word. Obviously that did not work. As for the rest of the post, you have ignored the numerous apologies I made after that, including by email to Bishonen. I made many a mea culpa over that post. Have you, over that comment and numerous others? Happy 2013; let's make this as better place to work in this new year. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 00:33, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
- My comment provided correction to a factual error. Negative reinforcement (differential reward) is important for learning and sustaining intelligence, individually and in organizations.
- Your comment did not in help any discussion in any way, nor would it. Also, it's interesting that you bring that up, given that I was hoping to reduce drama and tension by quickly removing the word. Obviously that did not work. As for the rest of the post, you have ignored the numerous apologies I made after that, including by email to Bishonen. I made many a mea culpa over that post. Have you, over that comment and numerous others? Happy 2013; let's make this as better place to work in this new year. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 00:33, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
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- May I suggest that people on this page take a deep breath and cool off? It's the silly season turning into the nasty season, ironically demonstrating one of the points of the article. This debate is going nowhere. Tony (talk) 14:25, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
Hatted upon Ed's tweaks. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:53, 4 January 2013 (UTC) |
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- (edit conflict) The FA process was not 'hatcheted' in any sense of the word, and I would say that the FA process was 'disrupted' if it resulted in reviewers leaving. Still, I have made some tweaks to the language, so that we can move past these issues. Have a good evening! Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 22:18, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
- Excellent editorial! Great work Ed. Mark Arsten (talk) 21:21, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
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That's a good start, Ed; I've asked Kiefer on his talk to drop the Aruba thing from here forward, and perhaps we can all do more of same. Best, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:15, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
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- Respect, bros! The Wikimedia movement needs policies, but we just have to keep civil with the rest of the community to solve things. Have fun! --NaBUru38 (talk) 18:40, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
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