Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Women in Red/Archive 122
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Hi folks!! I'm looking for help on this draft as well. The coi editor User:Linda Gerdner thinks its notable and it seems to be borderline. There is a claim to notability but I couldn't determine if it was valid. Perhaps somebody do something with it. scope_creepTalk 11:44, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
Sigh. And then folks wonder why some editors prefer not to work on BLPs. Penny Richards (talk) 23:34, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
Reminds me of the song "How Can I Miss You When You Won't Go Away?". WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 23:55, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
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News from the destub mines
Sometime this weekend, the Wikipedia:The 50,000 Destubbing Challenge will surpass 4000 destubs listed, and 8% of its goal total. Hooray! I know this, because this morning I completed my own destub challenge, which was also my 12th alphabet run -- 26 destubs, all women's bios, Annette to Zanzye. Destubbing can be so satisfying, highly recommended as a variation on the usual diversions. Penny Richards (talk) 19:11, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
Female animals, perhaps by name?
One of our most recent new members, Pandelver, has suggested under "Need for attention to female animals too" on my talk page that it might be useful to consider whether Women in Red should also embark on reducing the gender gap on animals.--Ipigott (talk) 11:22, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
- Would 'Animal Women in Red' or something else you suggest be a name for a task force which brings attention to the females of every other species who are notable for inclusion in Wikipedia as a global encyclopedia? Only a small handful are as yet part of popular consciousness though we know these by personal names which we humans have given them. Koko the ground breaking keyboarding gorilla, Chaser the female Bordie Collie whose over 1000 word human vocabulary for her own stuffed toys dwarfs the 75 words already considered high for dogs working for humans, or Laika the first Soviet space dog. These actually did, themselves, what made their human scientists and family famous. Laika died for it, her death right in her capsule was planned by mission control after they celebrated getting her out of Earth's atmosphere alive. A few more immediately came to mind, mentioned on Ipigott's talk page. Ipigott finds we have some horses listed by personal name on Wikipedia but little else.
- But we humans are only 1 in 2-8 million animal species as biologists guess.
- I ask what we should call the subproject of acknowledging 'women' of our sister taxa because here we're the Women in Red project, and 'Non-human Females in Red' is, today, clunkier. Humans have been such automatic aggrandizers, our modern society usually draws the distinction line between human 'people' with 'women' and 'animals' with 'females'. On the other hand, traditional societies who saw humans as peers of at least other highly sentient species, not as masters of slaves, call other species people and are comfortable about other species' 'women'. Furthermore, the endonym of any race or tribe usually derives from that socioelect's word for 'people' so we have spent millennia keeping the status of 'people' from other fellow humans just as long patriarchal millennia refused so many kinds of masteries to women, reserving them for men. And when we're not feeling too haughty only about prodigy individuals, I bet most Nobel physiology prizes were earned on the bodies of thousands of mother and daughter mice who were given women's names by their 'caretakers'. Yet UK legislation is recognizing sentience in cephalopods and decapods, octopuses and lobsters, and the thrust with species mentalities well above those is to speak of their intelligence, emotions, personalities, social signficances and individual accomplishments.
- Animal females (yes, 'animal women' is awkward today, too) have been noteworthy but overlooked in real life, besides plentifully inspiring in fiction, myth and religion, and we are still naming monuments and off-planet places predominantly after males, when using both human names and names of animals. It is quite possible that a century from now when biology really breaks the cellular confines of discrete species, the mainstream will treat femininity in other species and hybrids, including some we are likely to modify toward human forms of sentience, the same way we treat human femininity. US colloquial society has retired the political phrase 'affirmative action', while Hollywood has taken formal steps to include minorities including women in key film-making roles, as of these few years. In fact, there must be a huge repertoire of female animal stars in Hollywood productions, alone. Some of what's extraordinary about animal women and what they do is imbedded in existing articles as tertiary features, but their patterns in bigger pictures doesn't emerge without highlighting. How will we at Wikipedia bridge the gap for noteworthy animal women since we are the ones who write and compose their profiles?
- Here at Wikipedia, Women in Red is working to reach gender balance. If we recognize that females of other species have been responsible for so much of what's encyclopedically worthy in human achievement, without credit, and that some have been individually named by humans or are of individual notability themselves, it also helps the global audience which reads and uses Wikipedia normalize attention to human women. Outlines and what Ipigott imagines might be article series, I am sure the urges which brought you to Women in Red will suggests formats we can accomplish the equalizing redress.
- First I ask of your insight, what should we call an initiative like this.
- Then, how, with what Wikipedia tools would you like to honor women both in close kindred like Great Apes and in other sister species? Pandelver (talk) 12:37, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
- Strikes me as completely out of scope for WiR & something that should not be a sub-project of WiR. With the best will in the world, "animal women" is not a thing. Nor has any evidence been adduced that there is a gender disparity on WP with respect to individual animal articles which needs to be addressed. For sure, adding more individual animal articles is a good thing to do, where notability is met and reliable sources are available. Adding more female gendered organisms is also good, if that's your thing. I don't think the initiative helps WiR, and it's also closer to bringing WiR into disrepute than I care for. --Tagishsimon (talk) 14:15, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
- I agree with Tagishsimon. Women are people. Please don't broaden the project to "femaleness in red", that doesn't interest me at all. Penny Richards (talk) 15:50, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
- There might well be a case for writing more articles about female animals but I don't think there is any reason why that should be part of Women in Red. On the other hand, there may be a case for adding more articles to Category:Female characters in anime and manga. I don't think there is much evidence that female animals have been receiving substantially less attention than their males counterparts.--Ipigott (talk) 16:38, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
- I agree with Tagishsimon. Women are people. Please don't broaden the project to "femaleness in red", that doesn't interest me at all. Penny Richards (talk) 15:50, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
- Strikes me as completely out of scope for WiR & something that should not be a sub-project of WiR. With the best will in the world, "animal women" is not a thing. Nor has any evidence been adduced that there is a gender disparity on WP with respect to individual animal articles which needs to be addressed. For sure, adding more individual animal articles is a good thing to do, where notability is met and reliable sources are available. Adding more female gendered organisms is also good, if that's your thing. I don't think the initiative helps WiR, and it's also closer to bringing WiR into disrepute than I care for. --Tagishsimon (talk) 14:15, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
- Welcome to WiR @Pandelver. Cultural representations of femininity broadly writ is an interesting topic, but, for my money, this project is appropriately dedicated to increasing the percentage of biographies of women. You might find more enthusiasm for writing about animals someplace like WP:Animals or WP:WikiProject Animal Rights. I hope you’ll keep contributing to WiR too though! Innisfree987 (talk) 22:43, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
- Since Pandelver doesn't link to anything, it may be worth pointing out that the top of the tree for the animal biographical articles we have is Category:Individual animals. We seem to have well over a thousand, mostly horses and dogs etc, but for example 3 molluscs. Like most above, I don't feel a pressing need for more, nor does a quick sample seem to show much of a gender bias, except where it follows from eg the way horse-racing and other stud-type patterns of domestication work. For example, despite the advantage bulls have in participating in sport (whether they like it or not), Category:Individual bovines contains by my count 35 males & 18 females - better than the human ratio anyway. Nor do I think it is within scope for this project. Johnbod (talk) 05:02, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you, Johnbod, I have only cast the briefest glance at that Category list, though its topics seem on the light side for the most part. I am glad to become aware of it, especially if you think it's been filled enough to be top (or root is it?) of our English W's tree, as many category pages are thinly spotty, seems people have not put most articles into relevant categories except in sometimes eclectic streaks of attention, little marathons. Pandelver (talk) 16:10, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
I have a first case for a mild article creation, actually a slight import, on Sangduen "Lek" Chailert who has a short article so far on Simple English Wikipedia, and this is a bridge case into the topic I have asked you all about. Lek is a human female conservationist who is among the dozenish living people currently dubbed 'Elephant whisperers', in her case mainly with Asian elephants, with broad media attention in which she usually shares elephants' names, personalities, and sometimes special talents or histories, elephant societies being fundamentally matriarchal. So I would love your guidance please, Women in Red colleagues, with:
(1) Doing the import, as the article Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia does not give the knowhow of imports within the same language family at W, and I have not done a wholesale import myself before that I recall. One issue is the fine detail of referencing or the latest W quasibot technologies to import source article sources and in what ways to modify their details in the destination wiki, and the temporary or permanent use of 'see sources' in source article statements as the Copying article suggests as a working approach.
(2) Whenever I point out immanent work I've identified, I am NEVER proprietary as working editor, so if any of you feels the yen to accomplish this port before I make time to finish it, please always do so with full blessing, and moreso if you add what all editors including I have not or have not yet thought to meaningfully add. I expect articles to evolve, almost always grow over time, as knowledge and knowledge of knowledge and implications do.
(3) Lek's article may serve as a mild first case of better inclusion of female elephants in consort with Lek's female human achievements and notability, including working out how to parse such influences to the correct extents, so Lek's bio is good starting material. Lek is herself mentioned in regular English W's article on Elephant Nature Park in sections of which that article is now treated as her partial bio, so melding and linking sections between the Park article and Lek's new bio on regular English, grown out of Simple English, is a cohesive task.
(4) Where at Women in Red do we keep and add to a list of identified articles to be created, such as a list of women needing bios, or candidates to be discussed, or subtopics of feminine notability to be created? Not just in the rolling archives of this talk page, surely? Is there a work-to-be-done repository, where the Lek article should be added and from which we may all see what else calls us individually to add? BIT LATER: Ah, would the area be the WiR Categories menu???
(5) My own work, especially writing projects and duties, does not avail me as a regular per-month volume contributor on behalf of Women in Red; what mostly transpires into W is working on articles collateral with my ongoing work outside W. One of the larger containers with which you may conceive me is as having a sociologist's perspective on what we all do. In which regard, as important as species recognition is in the real world for our great grandchildren, what impresses me as needed is a renaissance, perhaps through a Wiki Project, within the present W community to actually institute several ethos elements which we glossily purport. Yet which both evolved disputative culture and the revising editorial hierarchy in practice thoroughgoingly unravel. Because we are so subject to the common and ordinary real human world phenomenon, of many who get enthused about being supervisory editors in the same way that many relish being cops. A recognized personality orientation in the case of police. Swift handling of misinformation to the public is important. It may take presumptive action like wholesale reversions. Yet what is always important hand in hand is vetting its content to preserve what's so far worthwhile, without demoralizing line editors or recent volunteers. So what might be called for are the following (if you know of existing Wikipedia organizations or even philosophical factions, being as fruitfully full of these here as elsewhere, please let me know):
1) That Wikipedia's purpose and criteria are far more for its readers and their uses than for its proferring writers and compilers, and the different ways in which our material is used by reader sociolects and types within those is paramount, far above the salaciousness of 'edit wars' or 'ownership' in atavistic sense by individuals trying to guard bits or be zero-sum game instead of complementary
2) So that what is encouraged is much stronger collegiality, whose depth of mutual engagement in material is typically apparent because it incidentally produces real friendships, not only drinking-fountain acquaintances and alliances; it elevates the corpus of editors who boost each other in the delivery (and experience) of important work, conveyed through to readers and increasingly aware of what readers want that they are not yet getting.
3) Editors, especially up the hierarchical line, whose evident tenor is championing the satisfactions of knowledge, inspiring this attitude of getting the best, which is not just objectivity but the brilliance of knowledge we come together to present, eclipsing games in all directions of mere cops and robbers. Don't we really want Editors, those who shape what's written into greatness, contributing their editorial sense? Even without originality in our charter. The moreso therefore, those who build and care about what should be added as much as subtracted, who have vision for what's important in article's growth. At some point, of course, as with any organization, no matter how grass roots or partly decentralized, such tones are usually best fostered in unison with the most senior strategists who shape the organization overall.
4) Perhaps we may develop, including for Women in Red, guidance recommendations for what SHOULD be in an article, positively, such as about persons, living, fictitious and dead, what makes an article more complete to serve readers who do not dismiss it to use an article elsewhere as preferable to our W articles on a topic or person cluster, not as addenda to smashingly good treatment here. Becoming conscious, including through surveys and studies, of the living, changing pulse of both large and important special groups and individuals who are the readers, learners, citers, inventors, implementers, and future collaborators of articles here. And not to be a new formidable prescriptive wall but out of our pith as editors about what's pithy in valuable, sufficiently versatile articles for our real constituency, which is all the varied users, not overweening influence by any including casual mainstreams. Rather, guides to sections and contents and forms which are of greater usefulness to more.
I look forward both to adding to our shared pool, human for a while for now, with you, and personally, to those profound friendships which are beyond advocacies and shared habits and variant tastes, and which never need compromise but fully embrace those in each other as what makes us great people.
Warmly, in this New Year begun,
~ Pandelver
Stub about author Sally Green reverted to redirect
I noticed that author Sally Green did not have an article written on her and enthousiastically started collecting sources. I created a stub that was quickly marked with 'primary sources' and 'notability'. WIthin six days the article was reverted back to its redirect of her most notable work. I wanted to have a second opinion on this as I see male authors with the same problems that are not being turned into redirects. Do you think the revert was right? Martsniez (talk) 07:36, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- It seems to me it would be useful to expand on Green's achievements by drawing on the many critical assessments of her work, for example from The Guardian on Half Bad, The Times on The Smoke Thieves, The Financial Times on The Smoke Thieves, Heart Full of Books on Half Wild, Cups & Thoughts on The Smoke Thieves, etc.--Ipigott (talk) 08:54, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- Heart Full of Books and Cups & Thoughts are blogs so they would not contribute to notability. TSventon (talk) 12:54, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- I have reverted the draftify - we are missing the point that its a notable article and it can develop into one in main space. Best of luck @Martsniez: - the main thing that it was missing was a WIR template but I've fixed that. More than enough good sources. Victuallers (talk) 13:23, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- Heart Full of Books and Cups & Thoughts are blogs so they would not contribute to notability. TSventon (talk) 12:54, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you all for the helpful comments. As an irregular contributors I sometimes struggle when other more seasoned contributors argue notability and sources. It is helpful and encouraging that I can ask for some assistance and second opinions on these matters. Thanks also for the new direction of sources that I hadn't thought about yet. Martsniez (talk) 06:47, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- Happy to report back that by many great edits by various persons the article has gotten in great shape within a few days. Many thanks! Martsniez (talk) 17:05, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you all for the helpful comments. As an irregular contributors I sometimes struggle when other more seasoned contributors argue notability and sources. It is helpful and encouraging that I can ask for some assistance and second opinions on these matters. Thanks also for the new direction of sources that I hadn't thought about yet. Martsniez (talk) 06:47, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
Celebrating Wikipedia Day today!
Short notice, but I thought some of you might be interested in this: in 45 minutes (at the top of the hour), come join the m:SWAN call which, this time, is a one-hour around-the-world-celebration of Wikipedia Day. For privacy, you can keep your audio and/or video on or off. More info and Zoom link here: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Wikimedia_Affiliates_Network#January_2023_meeting Rosiestep (talk) 16:19, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you so much, Rosiestep, sorry to have missed that. Happy Wikipedia Day to you, and to all a Good Wikipedia! Pandelver (talk) 21:54, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
Who's Irish (or Irish beguiled)? And who knows valid etymology sources for personal names?
Part of this is a shout out for lil contributions to lil Pegeen, but that article also raises a longstanding question for some of us:
What sources, especially translingual, do you know for citing etymologies, given that Wiktionary is by now well populated but askance to forbidden, Douglas Harper's once solo effort has made Etymonline the closest second on the web, but far less fruitful, a fraction of Wiktionary, and the bits of etymology in the few good narrow dictionaries online by language hardly venture across language boundaries very far for global metrospeak in major languages especially, or for close kinships of neighboring tribes? Resources you can share for us to use extensively?
Today I put the first half dozen cites and also more instances into what I'd found the entirely uncited but rouge Irish woman's name Pegeen article. And had as yet even missed how Auntie Mame limelighted Pegeen into the 21st century.
Pegeen was stylish in English earlier last century; this article had already started by saying Pegeen is Anglicized Irish for "little Peig" or "little Margaret" but doesn't even explain, why Margaret? Some of us have already heard Margaret's from the Greek word for 'Pearl'. I don't know myself the particular descent from Pearl to Peg and Peggy perhaps? to the obvious use of that cute Celto Gaelic diminutive -een to form Pegeen. So the raw facts in the first line so far are true but don't illuminate readers yet, no tingles of understanding or artful appreciation. Nacreous etym's the evocative flow between people's cultures, creating these words with which we gleam our interflows on W, a no neh?
Please jump in there if you've the Irish gall to better blush Pegeen's cheeks, it's a small task, but relies on the big grace of knowing a Wiki-venerable online source or having an authoritative tome of English, Celto Gaelic, Greek or interlingua reference which captures this etym or a social history of the name's migration or permutation. And I've made an edit note by each of the first 2 literary/ arts fictive instances where the Pegeens from Playboy of the Western World and the 1920 film yearn for better subentries. Always welcome you working hand in hand, thanks. And perhaps you'll bring more outstandging women named Pegeen to light for everyone, I especially imagine if you can delve out those from Ireland and Scotland for sure, and perhaps cognates in Wales, Brittany and adopted into English, so even Aussies.
Go Brách, cairde! Pandelver (talk) 22:23, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- I'm sorry to say I don't find your changes to Pegeen to be an improvement. The article is about the name. The reader is not informed by lengthy cast lists, nor prolix plot summaries concerning characters having that name, not least when there are self-standing articles on the book/film/whatever in which such information properly should be sited. Section headings should be sentence case. I note, too, your very long posts on this board; generally boards such as this work better with concision. --Tagishsimon (talk) 22:48, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- Ah, dear Tagishsimon, we are variously born together to work different facets, especially completing each other with those which have not consciously become productive work. I look forward to your adding to Pegeen what you recognize will make Pegeen more complete, Slainte. Pandelver (talk) 23:06, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- Well yes, but also, mainly, no. Articles should contain information about the subject of the article. Articles should not contain off-topic information. That's generally the way encyclopedias work. If you don't wish to take this concept seriously, I will happily revert your additions. --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:10, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- Indeed, so I am taking this fully seriously. Pandelver (talk) 23:17, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- Tagishsimon, are you extending me the fullhearted collegiality with which we shall relish, through difference of perspective, building together? So we may both put all lesser quirks, sarcasms or such, aside, in good forthright collaboration? Pandelver (talk) 23:20, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- Do please consider that the paradigm of hyperlinks so fundamental to Wikipedia and most else online today, the way we use and think, is the emphasis on interrelation, which is a seachange in topic and off-topic from previous centuries. Then I shall refrain from more ideas because nothing is ever an attack, it is always an invitation, and you must surely step into the space with your extended hand before it's proper for me to further lift my already lifted one to you, my peer. Pandelver (talk) 23:24, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- Well yes, but also, mainly, no. Articles should contain information about the subject of the article. Articles should not contain off-topic information. That's generally the way encyclopedias work. If you don't wish to take this concept seriously, I will happily revert your additions. --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:10, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- I cast out here for others' contributions because so far I have just put in more of what others had started. What you find prolix, when some of us are staring at a list of unobvious items as we learn, will find laconic in giving just the first gist from which we decide what to explore on other pages, without which the first page is not yet a useful guide. So come, Tagishsimon, what may you suggest as new content which will make this rather petite topic in any case a stellar petite article, not a bland one inciting no really compelling interest, promising not even intellectual excitement? Shoot, I'm all ears, then we succeed in this thread of threads. Shoot, please! Pandelver (talk) 23:16, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
Help with drafts?
Would anyone be willing to look at two drafts of bios of Indigenous women artists that were just recently (and IMO incorrectly) rejected? They are Draft:Marlana Thompson, which I've tried to bolster, and Draft:Vicki Lee Soboleff. Thank you for any insights into this situation. Carolina-parakeet-42 (talk) 16:53, 14 January 2023 (UTC)Carolina-parakeet42
- @Carolina-parakeet-42: Draft:Marlana Thompson is a clear and unambiguous WP:NARTIST pass by virtue of her work in major museums. Draft:Vicki Lee Soboleff, in my view, is also an NARTIST pass, with work known to be in two major museums, and the recipient of a named award. Both appear to have been declined on, essentially, WP:GNG grounds, which is entirely wrong where NARTIST is met. They are both well-written and well-referenced articles which WP should be glad to have.
- I have promoted one to mainspace, and will promote the other in a minute or two. There's always a risk that a deletionist may take one or both to Articles for Deletion; I hope that doesn't happen, but it's worth at least anticipating it. If so, obvs, they're likely to receive 'keep' !votes from this quarter.
- @SFnativeAKM: You have enough edits that you can move your drafts to mainspace (or write in mainspace from the word go. I recommend you avoid the Articles for Creation route, because that service is busy and often makes poor decisions. If you need any assistance in this respect, this board is a good place to come to. --Tagishsimon (talk) 18:06, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- Both could do with categories, and obvs any other wikilove anyone feels like bestowing on them
- --Tagishsimon (talk) 18:12, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you so much! I'll try to contribute to these tomorrow. Carolina-parakeet-42 (talk) 19:25, 14 January 2023 (UTC)Carolina-parakeet-42
- tbh, SFnativeAKM, new editor on a Smithsonian editathon, has been given the full stereotype very worst reception WP offers: two very good articles declined at AfC and a scary COI notice left on their talk page. Welcome to the project indeed :( --Tagishsimon (talk) 21:01, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- Okay, I've done everything I can for Vicki Lee Soboleff. I think it's looking a lot better and more solid now, SFnativeAKM, Carolina-parakeet-42. SilverserenC 19:58, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you! Yes, it looks great. SFnativeAKM (talk) 01:32, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
- @SFnativeAKM I've added a redirect from Vicki Soboleff (good idea anyway, and this exact form is used in one of the sources), and created a surname page at Soboleff as there are three people to include (if she'd been the only name-holder I'd have made a redirect). These bits of navigation help make an article accessible. PamD 16:25, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
- And I've also created redirects from Marlana Thompson Baker and Marlana Baker, and added her to Thompson (surname). And added the date of birth of both to the lead - it was in the infobox in each case, but a standard opening sentence for a biography includes dates when known. PamD 16:32, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
- @SFnativeAKM I've added a redirect from Vicki Soboleff (good idea anyway, and this exact form is used in one of the sources), and created a surname page at Soboleff as there are three people to include (if she'd been the only name-holder I'd have made a redirect). These bits of navigation help make an article accessible. PamD 16:25, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you! Yes, it looks great. SFnativeAKM (talk) 01:32, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
- Okay, I've done everything I can for Vicki Lee Soboleff. I think it's looking a lot better and more solid now, SFnativeAKM, Carolina-parakeet-42. SilverserenC 19:58, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
Does the Daily Mail ban affect Wikipedia's coverage of women?
It is currently being argued at the Reliable Sources Noticeboard that the Daily Mail article "Fifty years ago, SHIRLEY CONRAN launched Femail with this racy cover. Today, we recreate it for a special edition as she rejoices how women got to wear the trousers!" published in November 2018, cannot be used as a source because it doesn't qualify as the Mail talking about itself, and is thus subject to the general ruling that anything written in the Mail by anyone for any purpose, is to be treated as if it is a deliberate fabrication for the purpose of making money. Fair enough. Perhaps it is, and I guess nobody can prove Shirley isn't complicit in that fraud. As absurd as it sounds, that is the logical basis for this all encompassing ban, the prospect of deliberate fraud, not easily corrected mistakes. But I was struck by the oft seen supporting argument that by definition, anything that can only be sourced to the Mail, is de facto unimportant to Wikipedia. I wondered how this sits with members of this project. Since in my experience, for reasons well understood here I imagine, you don't have to go too far into the depth of articles like this before you reach a point where you're reading material which would be unambiguously valuable to the goals of this Project (writing women's stories), but which have been ignored by so called reliable sources. I don't know what can be done about it, short of finding a way to have Shirley independently (and it has to be independently) repeat these words in a source deemed acceptable, which may not be practical at all, given her age and the general jealousy the rest of the media has toward the hugely popular Mail, unwilling as they are to admit it is more than just a right wing rabble rouser, as pieces like this show, both in the past and the present. I hope this doesn't discourage people, but if you're thinking that there is any way or means to get the majority of Wikipedia editors to reflect on the unintended (or should the be intended?) consequences of what was a fairly lightweight and clearly prejudiced examination of the alleged issues, certainly when asking for proof that the Mail specifically has a deliberate fraud problem, one far beyond what can and has been seen at other newspapers, even the gold standard ones, you would be mistaken. If so, it does rather strike me as perhaps the biggest single example of a Wikipedia rule deliberately and permanently enshrining a gender gap as an immutable quality of Wikipedia. Thoughts welcome. DefJamKlapp (talk) 11:45, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
- The prohibition of the Daily Hate as a reliable source arises out of the observation that it is not a reliable source; it makes stuff up to suit its agenda. That Shirley Conran started Femail is mentioned in her article. Trying to leverage the gender gap to support lifting the ban on this rank publication is quite a take. Please be assured that banning the DM has not materially adversely affected gender gap work, and also be assured that that ban is very very far away from "the biggest single example of a Wikipedia rule deliberately and permanently enshrining a gender gap as an immutable quality of Wikipedia". --Tagishsimon (talk) 11:56, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
- DefJamKlapp: Thanks for bringing this up. For a start, I know that some of the most active Women in Red contributors are 100% in favour of maintaining the ban on the Daily Mail. I therefore don't see much chance of making any changes. I'm not so sure myself that the Mail is any worse than several other British dailies which are all keen to increase sales by coming up with stories which cannot be authenticated. Perhaps the main problem with the Mail for many editors is that it tends to take a firmly conservative view of the world while the socialist views in other papers appear to be more acceptable however far-fetched they are. As I am not a supporter of any particular political party, I would therefore prefer to see a more nuanced approach to any ban on a Britsh newspaper which is so widely read. In this particular case, some of our more enterprising editors may be able to find independent sources in support of Femail. I must say that we are usually able to find solutions in our interest to present important information.
- While I'm here, I must say I am not at all happy with the current changes to presentation which I have struggled with for months if not years on the French wiki. The only way I was able to reply to this item was to work on an edit of the full talk page. If anyone else is experiencing difficulties, I suggest you report them to Wikipedia talk:Vector 2022.--Ipigott (talk) 16:50, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
- Ah yes, the UK; famous for its - checks notes - socialist media. --Tagishsimon (talk) 17:55, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
- @Tagishsimon: You're going to make me quote that bit from Yes, Prime Minister, aren't you? (Sorry.) --Ser Amantio di NicolaoChe dicono a Signa?Lo dicono a Signa. 18:01, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
- :) --Tagishsimon (talk) 18:06, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
- The central problem, of course, has nothing to do with the DM but rather that the OP is permanently banned from all Wikimedia projects. I'd recommend nuking the section per DENY, to be honest. JavaHurricane 01:07, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
- :) --Tagishsimon (talk) 18:06, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
- @Tagishsimon: You're going to make me quote that bit from Yes, Prime Minister, aren't you? (Sorry.) --Ser Amantio di NicolaoChe dicono a Signa?Lo dicono a Signa. 18:01, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
- Ah yes, the UK; famous for its - checks notes - socialist media. --Tagishsimon (talk) 17:55, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
Sandy Irani
Sandy Irani is a professor and former chair of computer science at UC Irvine, on leave as associate director of the Simons Institute for the Theory of Computing [3]. She is the daughter of Michigan computer science professor Keki B. Irani [4], a student of Richard M. Karp [5], a trustee of the Sage Hill School [6], a well-cited researcher on online algorithms and quantum computing [7], a recipient of the 2019 IEEE TCMF Distinguished Service Award for her leadership of the SafeTOC initiative for combating harassment at theoretical computer science conferences [8], and a newly elected ACM Fellow [9]. I normally try to make sure articles exist for all women ACM Fellows (and am in the process of checking existence for this year's batch) but in this case I have too much of a conflict of interest: she is a friend and close colleague. Maybe someone else would be interested? —David Eppstein (talk) 01:33, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
- She was quoted briefly in a 1998 LA Times piece on women in computing. Quoted at some length by MIT News (which I believe she is independent of), source also verifies "specializes in quantum computation". Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 07:44, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
Wikidata to Gender Rescue on Wikipedia (WiGeData )
I've just come across a funding proposal on meta - Wikidata to Gender Rescue on Wikipedia (WiGeData ) - wherein, to my admittedly quite jaundiced eye, a group of academics is intent on some form of wheel reinvention, perhaps with added spokes & such. Notable by its absence in the proposal is any pointer to past work - e.g. Humaniki & its priors; just clear blue sky and WiGeData. Perhaps we're doomed to do this, eternally, every three or four years. Anyway. Some of you here may well wish to support it; who knows. I think the MO is they need support via that page to get their grant. --Tagishsimon (talk) 01:24, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks, Tagishsimon, for notifying us of the formal grant application. This item was discussed on our talk page in late November under "Research proposal on Gender and Wikidata" where I expressed a few reservations.--Ipigott (talk) 07:25, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
- So it was, here. Missed that. --Tagishsimon (talk) 08:03, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
- Here's the link to last November - I'm making a note of these on the Meta page, to point funding reviewers to our concerns, and the fact that although some were addressed, not all were. Lajmmoore (talk) 08:04, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
Is up for deletion. Was Australian ambassador to Spain as well as Chile. FloridaArmy (talk) 19:07, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
Feminism and Folklore 2023
Hi WIRED team, we are going to organise Feminism and Folklore 2023 here on English Wiki, writing contest will start on 1 February. I would like to invite all you to sign up and participate to write/improve articles. I would also like to request the project maintainers to send a mass message to inform our WIRED members about the writing contest. Warm Regards, ZI Jony (Talk) 20:13, 20 January 2023 (UTC)