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Donald Ross' profession

There is the famous golf course architect Donald Ross (golfer). We have him specified as a golfer in parentheses on the link for his page. (As you can see.) Though he had some success as a professional golfer he is clearly way more famous as a golf course architect (or "designer"). I would change this title myself but don't know how. Could someone change this?

Thanks,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 01:47, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm not 100% clear about the best approach here. I see we have a few articles with titles like: Dick Wilson (golf course architect) (5 by my reckoning). WP:TITLE gives our policy about article names. See WP:PRECISION and WP:TITLEDAB there. "Usually, titles should unambiguously define the topical scope of the article, but should be no more precise than that." On that basis it seems that the only choices are Donald Ross (golfer) or Donald Ross (architect), and the existing articles with names like Dick Wilson (golf course architect) should be changed to Dick Wilson (architect). Perhaps a WP:RM is required. Nigej (talk) 17:02, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

I don't agree with changing the disambiguator for a golf course architect to simply "architect", because the latter implies they designed buildings and other structures. I am comfortable with changing the article title for Donald Ross to Donald Ross (golf course architect) since that's what he's most known for, as Oogglywoogly has noted. PKT(alk) 21:42, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Given what I read in WP:TITLEDAB, I think we should change it to Donald Ross (architect). Including the phrase "golf course architect" is, in my opinion, way too long for a title. Users can easily click on the page to determine that Ross was an expert in golf course design.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 01:42, 3 September 2023 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

Another issue here is whether he is actually the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and should be plain "Donald Ross". A google search for "Donald Ross" produces links mostly to him. Based on page views [1] he perhaps//probably is the primary topic, in which case it might be better to pursue that line first. Nigej (talk) 07:36, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm thinking now that a WP:RM (at his talk page) is the only way forward here. Just need to decide what. Nigej (talk) 07:38, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Hi Nigej, You make a good point and I think you are right. Though he has a common name it looks like the golf course designer is the most famous Donald Ross and therefore there is no need for a qualifier. I am also fine with bringing this up on his talk page.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 17:45, 3 September 2023 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

Hello User: Nigej (and others),

I began a discussion on Ross' talk page here about changing his blue link. Please contribute if interested.

Thanks, Oogglywoogly (talk) 20:01, 5 September 2023 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

That's not going to work, since this sort of "move" can't be done by normal users. We need to follow a formal system as covered by WP:RM. We'd be proposing to move Donald Ross to Donald Ross (disambiguation) and Donald Ross (golfer) to Donald Ross. This is covered at Wikipedia:Requested_moves#Requesting_multiple_page_moves. I've added a nomination at his talk page. Nigej (talk) 05:20, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Hi Nigej, Thanks for creating the new post. I just responded. If other golf editors like User: Wjemather, User: Jimmymci234, and User: Tewapack are inclinded to responded please do so.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 19:46, 7 September 2023 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

Hi Nigej, I just saw Ross' talk page for the first time in a while. It looks like our effort to change the golf course designer's blue link to the standard Donald Ross has failed. However, I originally brought up this issue because I wanted to change his blue link from "golfer" to "architect." Could we try to do that?

Thanks, Oogglywoogly (talk) 04:37, 27 September 2023 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

Hi PK,

When you have time could you please let me know what you think about the immediately above statement. Even if you disagree it would be nice to get the ball rolling with editing Ross' link. It looks like the earlier proposal didn't go through.

Thanks,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 18:51, 27 September 2023 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

Hi Oogglywoogly - if you're asking if I'm OK with using 'architect' as the disambiguator instead of 'golfer' for Mr. Ross, I can concur with that. As I wrote before he's known as a golf course architect rather than a building architect (as we golfers all know) but I'm comfortable with the simpler option. I hope that answers your question - if I missed your point please clarify. Regards, PKT(alk) 19:17, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

We need to wait until the WP:RM is formally closed. Seems likely to be a "no". If it ends up that way I'd suggest another RM with a proposal to move to "(architect)" and see what comments we get. I think that even this move is "potentially controversial" and also another discussion would carry more weight than just moving it ourselves (which would be possible in this case). Nigej (talk) 05:55, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Thank you Nigej and PK for your responses. Ok, let's wait until a resolution has been made re: the current discussion. Assuming we get a rejection, let's create a new discussion to change the current blue link from "golfer" to "architect" (or some variation of "architect"). I have to say I'm a little in shock that even this proposal may be controversial as Ross is so obviously associated as a designer and not as a touring professional. Alas, we can have a full discussion of the matter with administrators and such to figure out the best solution.

Also, users User: Jimmymci234 and User: Wjemather are free to contribute to the discussion once it starts.

Sincerely,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 02:46, 29 September 2023 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

On September 30, the discussion was closed with a "Not moved" consensus. User: Nigej, could you please start another discussion in an attempt to change the title of Ross' profession from "golfer" to "architect" (or some variation of that). Thanks, Oogglywoogly (talk) 03:44, 5 October 2023 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

Ludvig Åberg

Time to decide how much the Ludvig Åberg article should cover. Since he had a long amateur career and having a very promising professional career ahead of him it felt reasonable to be very detailed on his early life and amateur career. As his professional career continues it seems unneccassary to still describe every amateur invitation to professional tournaments in detail. I suggest a shortened early life and amateur career part. And should birth date really be repeated in early life section as it is mentioned in intro and info box? EEJB (talk) 12:46, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

I placed the tag on the amateur career section, so of course I agree – it does need substantial pruning. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 14:36, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

I will try, but I hope no one put it back, please. Thanks for cooperating. Regards, EEJB (talk) 06:56, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

ok now? Enough to remove the note? EEJB (talk) 08:27, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Generally these excesses seems to happen when there's a personal connection and they're trying to "hype" the achievements. John Axelsen comes to mind, which could do with a trim if someone's in the mood. Nigej (talk) 11:35, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Laura Davies

I've worked a lot trying to complete the Laura Davies article with LET wins, playoffs and yearly facts. Unfortunaly very difficult to find. The LET web site doesn't have much history. There is a LET Information centre site, but some tournaments are missing there.

If anyone can, please, a review and some fact checks will be appreciated. Regards, EEJB (talk) 12:12, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

U.S. Open coverage in Oz

Hello everyone - both List of U.S. Open (golf) broadcasters and U.S. Open (golf) there are statements that say "In Australia, from 2015 Fox Sports Australia is the exclusive broadcaster of the U.S. Open until 2018." Can somebody please source an update to this statement, with a reference? Cheers, PKT(alk) 16:53, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

OWGR winner's points updates

What's the best way to reflect the new multi-win bonus? [2] Would it just be to include a footnote for cases where it's used? pʰeːnuːmuː →‎ pʰiːnyːmyː → ‎ɸinimi → ‎fiɲimi 18:09, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Yeah prob most likely. Will be easier to assess when it comes to fruition. Jimmymci234 (talk) 18:18, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

I suspect it'll be quite common. I'd be inclined to just ignore it in the tour articles, but we could add a symbol to indicate that the winner got the bonus. Can't really see the need to give the actual number after the bonus. Nigej (talk) 18:24, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Western Province Open

I have recently made a lot of edits to the Western Province Open. On the original winners list it stated that Alf Padgham won the "Western Province golf championship." However, for the subsequent 19 seasons I could find no evidence of this tournament. I maintained Padgham's win on the table but suspect the 1930s event was an entirely different tournament. This idea seems to be affirmed by 1970 champion Bobby Walker who was from Scotland. In the report I have it states that he "became the first overseas player to win the Western Province open golf championship." (Padgham was also British.) Thoughts?

Oogglywoogly (talk) 17:39, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Nick Faldo

After reading the Nick Faldo article, I think there are too much intricate negative personal details, not suitable for an encyclopedia. There are also notes concerning potentially libelous material in the article. Opinons? What should be removed? Regards, EEJB (talk) 10:31, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

I regard the Nick Faldo#2008 Ryder Cup captaincy as very excessive, per WP:UNDUE. We don't normally go into anything like this detail about captaincy. And its clearly excessive when compared to the details we have about his playing appearances in the Ryder Cup, which are clearly much more important. Surely one paragraph somewhere is sufficient on his captaincy. Nigej (talk) 10:59, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree. In addition, there may be too much information about his marriages in his Personal life section. It seems to go into excessive detail about his divorces.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 17:41, 26 December 2023 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

Tom Morris Jr.

Currently Tom Morris Jr. is an article about a TV personality, while Tom Morris, Jr. redirects to Young Tom Morris. (Sr. both with and without the comma redirect to Old Tom Morris.) The yearly Open Championship articles refer to then as Jr. and Sr. rather than Young and Old; a user doing article cleanup just removed the commas from the names in those articles, resulting in numerous links to the TV personality.

I'm not sure what the best solution is here, but it seems like Tom Morris Jr. and Tom Morris, Jr. ought to link to the same place, even if that's a disambiguation. pʰeːnuːmuː →‎ pʰiːnyːmyː → ‎ɸinimi → ‎fiɲimi 21:23, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, a mess. See WP:JR/SR which allows both options but doesn't discuss the confusion if both are used for different people. Probably a WP:RM or similar is required. Nigej (talk) 09:36, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Multiple winners section

I have noticed for a lot of our tournament pages we have a Multiple winners section. For example, see the pages for the South African Open or Phoenix Open or St. Jude Classic. I think these sections are clearly extraneous as we already denote multiple winners in parentheses in the Winners table. Thoughts?

Oogglywoogly (talk) 21:19, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

List of golf films

There is not a separate page and probably should be. Among sports (see List of sports films#Golf) golf seems one of the major sports without its own article. Anybody feel a personal call to create such a page, or fill it in once created? It could include fictional, documentary, and instructional entries. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:22, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Annika Sörenstam

Annika Sörenstam has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Schierbecker (talk) 04:02, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Hi,

All results are here

Source:

I placed the ref in the Professional wins section.

Ryder Cup controversy source also in place.

Regards, EEJB (talk) 11:40, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

References

French International Amateur Championship

I've just overhauled this article with info from the FFG. The problem I have is this...

In 1994, Greg Chalmers apparently won the French Open Amateur Stroke Play (an event reduced to 54 holes held at Golf National), but the FFG have the winner this year as Jesper Kjærbye. French WP (fr:Coupe Murat) has scores back to 1982 but no source.

Does anyone know if the Coupe Murat (held at Chantilly) and the French Open Amateur Stroke Play were separate tournaments for a period of time (or in some years), or is the event Chalmers won something else altogether (it seems to have has a national team component [3])? _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 17:01, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Hi,

By the way, Francis Oumet, winner in 1914, was American, wasn't he? His father was a French-Canadian immigrant, but FO was born in Massachusetts. Regards EEJB (talk) 17:21, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Indeed. Thanks for spotting that. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 17:25, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

David Graham

I,ve been trying to sharpen up the David Graham article. Still not very good. Strange that a HoFer had such a silly article with extreme details on his early career and just briefly description of his major wins and the wrong birthplace.

Well, one thing is still confusing: On the external sites World Golf Hall of Fame, PGA Tour, Texas Golf Hall of Fame, Sport Australia Hall of Fame, For the good of the Game and Golfweek 20150711 Graham gets credit for having won golf tournaments on six continents including South Africa and that should be the 1977 SA PGA Ch'ship. Graham says himself that he is proud of that and it's mentioned in the book "David Graham: From Ridicule to Acclaim" by Russell James, chapter 7.

I can't anywhere find a source confirming any South African win for Graham and he certainly not won the 1977 SA PGA, which John Bland did. Anyone knows something on this? Regards, EEJB (talk) 17:18, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

SA PGA Championship could be referring to the South Australian PGA Championship, but the 1977 event was won by David Galloway. So really not sure about that one. Jimmymci234 (talk) 17:27, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

For South America wins he has 1971 Caracas Open in (Ven), 1980 Heublein Open (Brazil) and 1970 World Cup in Argentina.Tewapack (talk) 17:39, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

If I'm counting down the leaderboard correctly, Graham finished in a tie for 20th place in the 1977 Lexington PGA Championship. Wouldn't be the first time HoFs have taken their info direct from the Player (pun intended) without verification and ended up being inaccurate. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 18:01, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

The 1978 PGA Tour Media Guide [4] doesn't mention it, although the 1977 Australian Open is mentioned. However it does get in the 1979 edition [5]. So could be in 1978, I suppose. Maybe a pro-am or something similar? Nigej (talk) 18:05, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately the PGAT have often accepted what the players report, without verification, so their media guides can be also unreliable. Yes, if I were to guess, I'd say it's probably a pro-am played in connection with the South African PGA in 1977. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 18:20, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

According to the book by Russell James the South Africa title was won "a month or two" before the 1977 Australian Open. That is the 1977-78 season. Probably a pro-am ahead of the S Afr PGA, in which Graham obviously took part. So let's leave it there until evidence is shown. Thank you! EEJB (talk) 20:14, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Yearly individual Players Championship articles

I see we have an article for the 2024 Players Championship, which begins tomorrow and has no detail in it. I was thinking though, do we still think that these individual tournament articles for the Players Champ are warranted? I get the sense that interest for this tournament is waning as time goes on (alongside with most of pro golf at this time in general). The tour have also lost a lot of backbone regarding their "5th major" claims given the strength of field. Obviously we don’t know exactly what the future holds, but personally I would be happy to do away with the individual articles (as we have done with the BMW PGA Championship). Interested to hear everybody’s thoughts. Jimmymci234 (talk) 13:09, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Since there are pages on all of The Players tournaments it is probably consistent to continue with the yearly articles. As an "almost major" the Players usually has had notable coverage in media so it seems the only way to demote it on Wikipedia would be if the sources disappear and the tournament's notability is downgraded by the PGA and public sentiment. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:21, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

I was intending to add the field but couldn't find a complete list of the entry requirements. It still has a special status in the OWGR system, with a guaranteed 80 points, otherwise it doesn't seem so special at the moment. Can't help feeling that the PGA Tour has shot itself in the foot by excluding the LIV golfers. Nigej (talk) 14:19, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

@Nigej this may be of use [6] Jimmymci234 (talk) 16:43, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Not convinced its accurate. This [[7]] has a "Top 70 on Prior Year's FedExCup Points List through the Playoffs" category which seems to be new. Nigej (talk) 17:23, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

It's really a distinction without a difference, since all of the top 70 through the Playoffs will be well inside the top 125 after the fall. The handbook (pages 28–29) only lists the top 125 category. Inside the Field lists the top 70 category, and has the categories in quite a different order from the handbook, which is another unimportant distinction. pʰeːnuːmuː →‎ pʰiːnyːmyː → ‎ɸinimi → ‎fiɲimi 19:20, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

It's ok with yearly articles on The Players, but in my opinion historic senior majors, women's majors, senior women's majors and men's and women's amateur majors have higher priority. Regards, EEJB (talk) 17:03, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Team appearances for the GOATs?

Why are there not any team appearances sections in the Jack Nicklaus and Tiger Woods articles? Regards EEJB (talk) 18:49, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Someone decided to put them in List of career achievements by Jack Nicklaus and List of career achievements by Tiger Woods instead. There was an AfD recently at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of career achievements by Jack Nicklaus which may be of interest. Nigej (talk) 14:29, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you EEJB (talk) 16:57, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Notability

I am struggling a little bit with this draft for LPGA player Gurleen Kaur. She made the cut at the U.S. Open (although she finished 66th) which would qualify under WP:NGOLF, but I cannot find sources that I feel would constitute significant coverage. There are some references from her college and some local television coverage, but mainly just mentions and nothing in-depth. What would be the project's take on notability with this one as I don't want to move to mainspace if it is likely to get deleted? CNMall41 (talk) 19:57, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

It there isn't sufficient coverage to meet WP:GNG, then we shouldn't have an article. As a minimum, per WP:SPORTCRIT, anything in draft needs to have one GNG qualifying source before being moved to mainspace. Also, anything relating to non-elite level sport (including school/college) would need to be particularly outstanding to justify an article on that basis alone. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 12:53, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Got it. What I am saying is she does qualify under WP:NGOLF (presumably notable) based on her making the cut in the U.S. Open. I am wondering if the references used would be considered significant coverage from those who regularly work in the project. Don't want to waste anyone's time with a deletion discussion, cleanup, etc. Hope that clarifies. --CNMall41 (talk) 00:10, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

There is no longer a presumption of notability under NSPORT guidelines, only an indication the significant coverage is likely to exist. Also, NGOLF needs tightening as it's become clear that significant coverage does not actually exist for many players who make the cut in majors or play a small number of full season(s) on tour without making an impression. Personally, I'd say the references in the article are not enough – the two most detailed are not independent of the subject – so more is needed. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 11:55, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

two articles proposed for deletion

I recently nominated two articles for deletion. They are List of Swedish professional golfers and List of golf courses designed by Donald Ross. I believe both fail WP:LISTN.

We discussed the first page years ago but I never feel like we came to a strong conclusion about whether to keep it or not. If we could have a robust discussion on the deletion page that would be nice. I believe it is very similar (though not identical to) the List of Canadian winners on the PGA and LPGA Tours that I successfully proposed for deletion a couple years ago. (See the full discussion here: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Canadian winners on the PGA and LPGA Tours.) To me, the Swedish page is similarly awash in made-up cross-categorizations with no precedent in the media.

With Ross' page, in the References section they have some sources that reference the courses he designed. But I'm not sure if the sources are reliable. And in general, this just seems like another standalone list - an idea we're trying to get away from.

Any contributions are welcome.

Regards, Oogglywoogly (talk) 04:59, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Have reverted the Donald Ross notice, his undeniable contributions to golf course design and adequate sourcing define the page. And who is "we" in "an idea we're trying to get away from" concerning standalone lists? They are fine, encyclopedic, and educational. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:39, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Removed the Swedish notice as well. I don't see how it fails LISTN as that information is compiled in Sweden. SportingFlyer T·C 13:48, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Hello SportingFlyer,

To me, the List of Swedish professional golfers page this still strikes me as the same idea as the Canadian list that was successfully deleted. Also, the central sources are in the Swedish language and this is an English-language site. Shouldn't all references be in English for en.wikpedia.org?

Thanks,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 19:49, 2 July 2024 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

No, sources can be in any language. SportingFlyer T·C 19:55, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

2024 U.S. Senior Women's Open Championship

I tried to create the 2024 U.S. Senior Women's Open Championship article but realised that the red link is directed to the U.S. Senior Women's Open "summery" article. If anyone can delete this direction, I can create the 2024 article. The tournament is on its way at the moment. Regards, EEJB (talk) 20:33, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Simply go to https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2024_U.S._Senior_Women%27s_Open&redirect=no and replace the redirect with your text. Tewapack (talk) 21:05, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! EEJB (talk) 18:32, 3 August 2024 (UTC)