Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues/Archive 40

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Bhutan

No place for trolling. Drmies (talk) 20:04, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

bhutan: https://kuenselonline.com/bhutan-premier-league-to-begin-from-august/ Consisting of 10 professional teams, BPL is the top domestic football league in the country competing for more than five months every season. this site has more articles confirming bpl teams are paid enough and all aspects to be called pro league since last 2 years at least, unlike outdated links used before. please move league to fully pro — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.81.30 (talk) 12:40, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

The source says "local sponsors from the tournament help the club owners to support their players" - indicating that clubs cannot afford to pay their players otherwise, and is therefore not truly professional. Giant Snowman 12:43, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

its never said that way so please only discuss facts. does it mean each club sponsors worldwide supporting them, indicate league isnt pro?! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.81.30 (talk) 12:49, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

That is literally a direct quote from the article you provided. Giant Snowman 12:54, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

"indicating that clubs cannot afford to pay their players otherwise, and is therefore not truly professional."

who said that? please respect if reliable sources call it pro to keep that way despite own conclusions! 🙏 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.81.30 (talk) 12:56, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

That is my interpretation of what the source says. Do you not understand how quotation marks work? You have not provided any comfort that the source is fully professional and should be included. Giant Snowman 15:02, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

I would like another source in addition to that one if possible. I'm not that familiar with football in Bhutan but what do they do for the 7 months of off-season? Are they definitely full-time footballers? Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 16:39, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

well it is discussion at least now. what they do is private thing but surely all registered players live from playing, at least at first 2 leagues.

from january would be afc cup (usually), from february-march either friendly tournaments at home or india, april-may second league, june-november premier league, add national team matches, youth categories, women league, futsal league most players join... so they are very occupied if it was asked. still link where federation and main portal confirmed fully pro transition finished, is all important so please respect facts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.81.30 (talk) 17:28, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Have you got any sources that confirm those statements? Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 18:57, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

- just look at social media of bhutan football federation (all youth, futsal, kings cup updates), or even here to compare 2 league schedules. further each club page posts their preparation activities, and after all doesnt have to prove as length doesnt define if someone tells its pro as their nationsl portal does. it just defines if they are trained enough, and even its fine since all mentioned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.81.30 (talk) 19:30, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

An important detail: of the eight Bhutan Premier League clubs who applied for an AFC Cup license, only five received one (AFC list). Keep in mind that the requirements to enter the AFC Cup are even less stringent than the ones to enter the AFC Champions League (which is for professional leagues). The point is: to participate in the AFC CL you need to be a professional league AND have a good enough coefficient. Therefore, a country's league being in the AFC Cup doesn't necessarily mean it's not pro (as it could just not be good enough to have a high coefficient), but in Bhutan's case about 40% of clubs can't satisfy the AFC Cup conditions, which to me indicates that it isn't even close to being fully-pro. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 18:17, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

secondly, afc cup entry again doesnt define either denies link ststement of 10 pro league teams, it only shows some couldnt run academies this season (covid), or just werent sure to take part due to travel issues. anyway in each single afc league i saw, not all teams get afc permit, in this case only champion does. it cant prove someone isnt pro team by that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.81.30 (talk) 19:30, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

It's not that they weren't sure, it's that all 8 officially applied, an the AFC only granted a license to 5. It's not like 5 applied out of 8, and 5 got it. All 8 applied. Also, what you say about the AFC regulations not having to be a defining feature in determining whether or not a league is professional may be true, but I would say that is the case for clubs applying for an AFC Champions League license. The idea of the AFC Cup is that it's a competition for countries that don't have professional leagues. For example, no Saudi, Japanese, Australian, Korean, etc. club can participate in the AFC Cup. The only cross-over is when there are clubs playing in the AFC Champions League play-off round, where other clubs of the same country also play in the AFC Cup. In this case, there needs to be more investigation (is only 1 club professional, or is the whole league professional but too low in the coefficient ranking?).

This article also states that national team players will receive a monthly salary of Nu 30,000 ($USD 411,41), which is below the national average of 37,200. And this is for national team players, who are the top players of the country. To me, this implies that the average footballer in Bhutan earns even less than that. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 19:45, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

point is afc cup has most pro teams and few from non fully pro leagues. also money count doesnt prove anything exactly. team ranked near 200 like they, still can have fully pro league as main source i sent shows. please just add it on wiki as its purpose to have true info. all you said might only prove why they are low ranked or only 1 afc spot but totally should respect if define own league as pro. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.81.30 (talk) 21:22, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

What do you mean "money count doesnt prove anything exactly"? Money is probably the most important factor in determining if a league is fully-pro or not. See the definition of what a fully-pro league is:

"A fully professional league is one in which virtually all adult players are paid a salary that they can live on and do not need additional sources of income. This salary should be a living wage in the nation where the league is based, and preferably around or above the average or median national wage. The professionalism of the league should also extends to sufficient contact hours, and facilities, equipment, expenses and other support as necessary to allow full-time pursuit of the sport."

If the top paid players are paid less than the average salary of the nation, it can't be fully-pro. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 21:27, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

first, which law or fifa rule says so;

bpl players are all paid by clubs and national money is bonus, each club has sponsors and if they feel its enough to name it fully pro, job of wiki editor is to respect it. otherwise national portal interviewing federation staff lies??? another story if they can be better or earn more, then 1% of world teams would be fully pro. just accept links and edit truth, nothing else! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.81.30 (talk) 23:22, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

@Nehme1499: I don't think you can make the comparison between international play and domestic play. Domestic play is judged by professsionalism. International play isn't - American Samoa fielded a team of non-professional youths in a world record and I'm pretty sure most if not all of Iceland's squad for the 2016 Euro were not fully-professional. --SuperJew (talk) 08:24, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

The AFC Cup is a club competition, it's different from the AFC Asian Cup which is for NTs. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 13:54, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

@Nehme1499: Yes I'm aware of that. My comment was due to your saying earlier This article also states that national team players will receive a monthly salary of Nu 30,000 ($USD 411,41), which is below the national average of 37,200. And this is for national team players, who are the top players of the country. To me, this implies that the average footballer in Bhutan earns even less than that. I'm not going into the discussion of if the league is or isn't FPL (my feeling is that it isn't), but am saying that domestic teams and national teams is a different story. --SuperJew (talk) 16:13, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Bhutan's NT is pretty much only comprised of players in Bhutan's league. My point is: if the top players in the league earn less than the national average, the average/lower-end players will earn even less. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 16:43, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

ok so if looks like bhutan has right to consider own league fully pro, can users please add note and do the job from links, not investigating 🙏 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.77.49 (talk) 13:57, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

No; there is no evidence or consensus that this league is fully-professional or should be included. Giant Snowman 15:42, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

evidence is link from national portal and federation interview, they consider themselves professional! users have to respect that, even in discussion i wrote full year schedule and money argument was proven "enough to live from it". besides, links for l8sting not fully pro are outdated less reliable articles, one i gave is official. so move bpl from all lists as its proven wrong currently. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.77.49 (talk) 18:17, 27 January 2021 (UTC) @nehme... there are few players with abroad experience, and even more abroad players in bpl. furthermore national teams arent paid usually, its just federation gesture, no need to compare with average salary. last, they never said any club payment is too small...it can be enough to be ranked around 200 but still can be pro league. and if nobody can deny my arguments, soon will have to obey words of national portal and add pro league link. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.77.49 (talk) 18:23, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

I know I'm "butting in" the whole discussion here, but if I consider myself a professional footballer, that doesn't mean that the rest of the world consider me a professional footballer. Plus:

1. Almost all leagues have some few players who were considered fully pro at some point of their careers, but that doesn't mean that the league is fully pro. An actual example: Maicon Sisenando (a former Brazil international) is playing for an Italian Serie D club called Sona. Should Serie D be considered fully-pro? No;

2. It's not about "obeying" the words of the official websites, neither is the "job of a Wiki editor to obey it". It's about discussing whether the evidences prove that the league is fully pro. So far, from what I've gathered here, there is no evidence proving that the league is fully-pro, per link #1: "Moreover, local sponsors from the tournament help the club owners to support their players." To me, it's a clear indication that those clubs may not survive for the season without a sponsor;

3. If "most of the players" join a futsal league in the off-season, they can't survive by just playing in the Bhutan Premier League;

4. Clubs posting their training schedules, travels and/or match programmes doesn't mean nothing, to be honest. I've seen a number of Brazilian teams in Campeonato Paulista Segunda Divisão (the fourth division of the Campeonato Paulista, a Brazilian state league) or a number of teams in the Northern Premier League (seventh/eighth division in England) post these types of contents. That means they are fully-pro teams, or the league is fully-pro? No;

Hope that helps. MYS 77 ^✉ 05:27, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

to last reply: 1 - off topic 2 - which world club can survive without a sponsor; and all related leagues are added by different links and someones belief, so in this case national portal is authority above previous articles. either respect or move completely, no double standards. 3 and 4 - its their will, surely not to "survive", and i was asked so added usual schedule. you have to accept team near rank 200 can have just enough for own league to be called pro and dont make up own indications. sponsors and how much or how long, how good etc is all indication while only direct evidence after 2017 semi pro (foreign website) links, is latest national portal federation interview calling them 10 pro teams in pro league. imagine top 100 tennis players etc, no law to determine how to earn or how much until someone thinks enough for a pro. lastly, its example of vandalism clearly showing that national portal and federation lie by all this hesitation. im ready to prove until justice is served! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.83.30 (talk) 13:26, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Mate, you're out of order, to be honest. "Ready to prove until justice is served"? "National portal is authority above previous articles"? I don't quite get what you mean by that, and if I did get what you mean, Bhutan's federation does not own Wikipedia to be the "authority above previous articles", nor we "have to accept" nothing, that's why we are discussing here.

To me it's pretty simple: you didn't bring any valid points to prove that this league is fully-pro, period. I provided you evidence based on your own arguments to say that this league is not fully-pro, and from what I've seen, another two users in this discussion think the same way as I do. You replied my point #1 as "off-topic" when you were the one who said: "there are few players with abroad experience, and even more abroad players in bpl". A bit nonsensical to say that was "off-topic" when I was merely explaining to you why this isn't a valid argument.

As for "which club can survive without a sponsor" (which I assume that was a question), well, Barcelona did for a number of seasons. Santos FC has no main sponsor for two or three years now, some other teams also don't have a main sponsor and survive for years. The article provided by you explicitly says that those clubs rely on the sponsors to pay their players.

You were asked to bring valid sources to prove that this league is fully-pro. Not only you did not present those sources, but you also brought other arguments that do not add or prove the point you want to make here. Where's the evidence that those players can make a living out of just playing in the league? Where's the evidence that those teams are professional enough to pay their players? Why these teams are not given an AFC Cup license if they are professional (according to you)? All of those questions were raised before, and the response so far is only proving that this league and those teams are not fully-pro so far. MYS 77 ^✉ 17:01, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

well very simple answer to all this; if national portal said from federation interview league is pro, users job is to register change, just as with older non pro articles. even if its small its enough to be a pro according to them, and afc doesnt prove anything. facts and indications are different just as users shouldnt be detectives. until new article explicitly says some team isnt pro, link where opposite is said has to be respected. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.83.30 (talk) 20:35, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Please read WP:PRIMARY. Also, just because an article uses the word "professional" it doesn't mean it's professional for Wikipedia. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 20:52, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

it is primary source from federation interview so wiki has to respect this fact, thats all about! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.83.30 (talk) 21:17, 28 January 2021 (UTC) make me wrong...claiming that federation lies is serious issue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.83.30 (talk) 21:19, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Exactly: we need secondary sources to confirm the federation (which you haven't provided us with). Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 21:21, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

If I create right now the "MYS National Federation", create a website for it and post there that the "MYS League" is the professional league of my federation, then the rest of the world have to consider the MYS league professional? No. The federation may not lie, but their concept of professional may be (and probably is) entirely different than Wikipedia's concept of professional. That's why a secondary source proving that the league is fully-pro is necessary. Please remind that the source have to cover all the points required to consider the league fully-pro, already brought to you earlier by @Nehme1499. MYS 77 ^✉ 22:55, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

come on...im getting this talk! there is no law nor fifa rule to determine "pro" or not. here wiki only has article links, and how would you ask player by player if they earn enough, or respect what federation staff said????!!!!! editors job is to use relevant links in articles, not make unreal investigations like this turns into. lastly, fifa and afc control their federation so surely would know if someone lies! 2 more authorities to respect.

 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.83.30 (talk) 23:21, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Can you link to FIFA and AFC declaring that the Bhutanese league is pro? Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 23:31, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

point is they let federations declare themselves, and follow that in some articles (example of semi pro auckland city on fifa wc, or tahiti confederations cup...). so as never questioned about bhutan, editors here has to do same! older links when wasnt, and add this when it became fully pro by federation. its unbeatable fact and about time to respect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.83.30 (talk) 00:44, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Ok I've had enough fun, I'm out for this discussion. Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 01:34, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

There's some ludicrous nonsense being peddled here, as usual. First of all, the central contracts for national team players have no bearing whatsoever on the professionalism of the league. The fact that the league apparently relies on sponsors doesn't matter either (imagine where the English Premier League would be without the billions of Sky Group). Although I accept that Wikipedia 'fully professionalism' is obviously a nebulous concept – or madey-up guff, depending on your point of view – there are obviously some other matters to be taken into account. Paro FC reportedly has 23 full-time players from a first team squad of 27. If they were white/Western men that would probably be enough to garner them 'the benefit of the doubt' on here. ~85% full-time is much higher than average in the Scottish Championship and Eerste Divisie, to take two examples. But if they were women at the same level they'd undoubtedly get the thumbs down. Do Spiderone and Giant Snowman have any completely unqualified and unevidenced ruminations about the level of imagined media coverage? For some reason that all seems to be given credence on here. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 01:45, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

some great points 👆 furthermore these players mentioned apart full time in unofficial articles, are students which is kind of a job, again depending on free will and not accepting field performance. count any pro player with some degree and way they did it, nothing unusual. even story of national captain who is pilot, having his job minimised to attraction since 2015 fifa entry when i would say total transition to fully pro league boomed. lastly, any job or hobby players do from love while football is number 1 income source shouldnt be discussed here. in last few season can see teams like druk united, thimphu fc, p'ling united, who were not granted bpl permit exactly after some sponsors or players found hard maintain fully pro status, which just proves how sensitive league has become to such things! looks like very soon all users will accept and make changes from link i gave, as it could be done far easier. if someone doesnt know or mocks how to ask all players about made up money criteria, doesnt mean league hasnt right to be called pro anywhere including wiki. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.83.30 (talk) 03:22, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes, one of the stupidest things about Wikipedia's concept of "fully professionalism" is that it's falsely presented as a binary. In reality there are a million different shades of professionalism, often culturally relative. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 03:55, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

so can it f8nally be added to page that bpl is fully pro, these users couldnt prove anything opposite, how long more or any further instance, im ready — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.83.30 (talk) 13:47, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

No, you can't. You failed to prove that the league is fully-pro. As simple as that. And unless you prove it properly, the league will not be considered fully-pro. I'm also done, I'm tired to explain when the user clearly does not want to listen properly. MYS 77 ^✉ 13:54, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Plus, @Bring back Daz Sampson: you are bringing a completely different subject into account which doesn't have any relation with what we are evaluating here. Nobody is doing any type of prejudice, as you are implying. Now, back to facts: as you said about Paro FC: 23 out of 27, right? What about those other four? A league is fully-pro when the players' contract are all fully-pro, with rare exceptions (youth contracts and so on). As the IP user said before, players cannot make a living out of the league, because it doesn't cover the full season (or whole year), so they have to work in other fronts to basically survive, another point who goes against the professionalism. Plus, per the country's culture, Archery is the most popular sport, followed by basketball, then football, so I don't think that a lot of media coverage exists even in the country. And Sampson, can you please tell me in which considered fully-pro league in here, the under-17 football team plays in the first division?

I don't think the evidence brought up here is enough to grant a fully-pro status to the league, period. The league clearly has some amateur spots (U17 side playing in the first division, teams who can't have an AFC Cup license)... Funny how all the other facts are pointless to the IP user when they are contrary to what he believes, and when Sampson came up with some points that endorse his "facts", they are "some great points". This was my last input, I promise. MYS 77 ^✉ 14:35, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

one sentence was "federation could have different concept", so how better to prove by links from their own staff, here is complete scandal few users d9nt listen... which law are you if fifa and afc accept their status but s9me anonymous username abusing world leading info portal disagrees... this must have consequences, you failed to prove federation lies !!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.83.30 (talk) 14:38, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

National team players who earn less than a gardener, and those who aren't earn even lesser. The article clearly states:

He admitted that younger players approach him for advice, and they have a very high level of interest in the game and want to dedicate their lives to it. But they are under pressure from their parents to complete their education and get jobs, as football is not seen as a sport where a stable income can be earned.

To me, it's a clear indication that footballers cannot make a proper and stable living in the country by just playing in the league. MYS 77 ^✉ 14:47, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

(youth contracts and so on). These 4

As the IP user said before, players cannot make a living out of the league, because it doesn't cover the full season (or whole year), so they have to work in other fronts to basically survive, another point who goes against the professionalism.

I wrote full schedule, it does cover enough and all current players dont need other jobs...such shameless lie but wont go as you imagine!

Plus, per the country's culture, Archery is the most popular sport, followed by basketball, then football, so I don't think that a lot of media coverage exists even in the country.

Open mycujoo or clubs fb pages, also bbs tv, compare page likes...archery was tradition but now clearly most followed is football, another shameless lie!

And Sampson, can you please tell me in which considered fully-pro league in here, the under-17 football team plays in the first division?

thats just bcos there arent more teams in 2nd division (they qualify for 1st sometimes), again no proof clubs arent pro neither these u17 guys arent aiming for pro, besides they dont got afc spot so just fill the number (india and philippines use similar method).

ANY MORE LIES YOU LEFT??? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.83.30 (talk) 14:48, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm done here, I won't be receiving personal attacks by an user who isn't even signing his posts, just saying things from his head. Articles clearly state that players quit football because they can't make a living in the country, but no, IP user is right. I won't be going on to this subject anymore, but unless you bring some proper evidence to prove the league is fully-pro, the league won't be added. Period. MYS 77 ^✉ 14:52, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

about cg article: YOUNGER players (students), view of PARENTS, in 2019... my link in 2020 since few clubs werent granted BFF permit, exactly to keep league fully pro! any other indication..... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.83.30 (talk) 14:53, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

@MYS: last post is great, from march national players + league sponsors by the league start, are firm evidence this season hass completed fully pro transition. please add it on league list! 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.83.30 (talk) 15:17, 29 January 2021 (UTC) (you actually wrote few lies before so accept facts. i wrote to admin and will see procedure to shortly end discussion, implement changes.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.83.30 (talk) 15:37, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

The last link was a clear indication why the league should not be considered professional. Players literally quit football because they couldn't make a living out of it. Plus, relying in the national federation to pay a bonus salary to the national team players is another clear indication that the players are not able to earn enough from the league. Please stop adding content in the main page, when there's no consensus over the subject. MYS 77 ^✉ 20:14, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

again good point but easy explanation...from march to august when season started, and federation staff told they became pro, prove me it was lie or how much someone earned; also prove me few teams not being fully pro taken out by federation means others arent; — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.83.30 (talk) 20:21, 29 January 2021 (UTC) laugh and hide is not appropriate if out of facts, the moment someone finds source against mine in upcoming time, revert it but current facts are such.

Mate, it's simple: I'm not the one asking (in your case, it's more like "forcing") for the league to be accepted here. You are the one who should raise articles, links, reports, something other than your excuses to prove that the league is fully-professional. Wikipedia already have a previous veredict, where the league is not fully-pro.

So far, your attitude and your replies are only convincing me that you don't actually have proof to provide. Bring them here, explain them, then we'll analyze it. MYS 77 ^✉ 20:24, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Brilliant points raised by MYS77 which have not been countered at all. It's very clear this league isn't an FPL. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 21:15, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

I agree. Giant Snowman 08:19, 30 January 2021 (UTC)