Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Contract bridge/Archive 2017

A potentially valuable resource for the early history of British bridge

Richard Fleet has written a history of the early days of bridge in England entitled "TOURNAMENT BRIDGE IN ENGLAND 1925-1945". It's freely available from the EBU website in PDF format here. As well as potentially being a source of information on the early careers of players such as Simon, Marx and Reese, its coverage of the challenge matches that Culbertson played against British teams could also be valuable.

Noted. I have a copy downloaded but have not had a chance to do more than skim the first few pages - looks very promising as a reference. I am on a Wiki holiday till March and will review more closely after then. Newwhist (talk) 15:17, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

I can vouch that Richard Fleet is a good historian as well as player. We've been nodding acquaintances for over 40 years, never more than that. If you need chapter&verse for anything he says, I'd suggest PMing him on Bridge Winners; his collection of 1930s British publications may be unequalled; it's certainly way better than mine. Narky Blert (talk) 23:42, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

New categories?

I propose two new Wikipedia:DUPCAT categories within Category:Contract bridge players, namely: Category:Bermuda Bowl players and Category:Venice Cup players. They could be easily (if incompletely) populated from existing articles. However, I've had a category renamed from pillar to post before now, so am raising this idea here to seek a WP:CONSENSUS as to whether (a) those categories are needed and (b) whether my suggested names are the right ones. Narky Blert (talk) 00:50, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Seems reasonable and I support provided that all identifiable entrants be listed and not just those with existing Wiki articles or only those who were winners or runners-up. I assume that there would be no red links - just unlinked names where the individual has no article. This would also be one more helpful means of identifying worthy candidates for main articles where non exists. Would the date(s) of entry and their final placing(s) be included? Assembling such a list would be a challenging task but, being an inclusionist, I have no concerns beyond the level of difficulty involved. With respect to the title of the proposed category, I am OK with it but some editors seem to want 'contract bridge' in place of just 'bridge' or 'players' (reference the recent renaming of all the categories of bridge players by nationality). Newwhist (talk) 13:46, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

It seems that you are thinking in terms of a list, whereas what Nanky Blert has proposed is a couple of categories. It's inherent in categories that only those who already have articles would appear in it. Of course there's no reason why there shouldn't be a list in addition to having categories. I think the categories could be useful. One question is whether they should be limited to the Bermuda Bowl and Venice Cup, or should include other world championships such as the so-called Olympiads and their successors the Mind Sport Games and the World Bridge Games. If we went the latter route, I'm not sure what a suitable but reasonably succinct name would be. JH (talk page) 16:32, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

You are correct - I was confusing category with list. The category concept is without question appropriate. It is unlikely that the concept should be limited to just the Bermuda Bowl and the Venice Cup but, at this time, I am not sure how to establish a criteria for inclusion/exclusion. Is the concept used for the events of any other sport? Newwhist (talk) 19:38, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

I imagine that biographies for players of most sports will have something similar to distinguish those who have played at international level. Cricket, with which I'm most familiar, has categories for England Test cricketers, Australia Test cricketers, etc. JH (talk page) 20:12, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

I was thinking only of creating categories for people with existing articles; therefore, no redlinks. I have a general distaste for lists, although they can provoke editors to write articles.

I agree that other "played in" categories could be useful too. As could "winners of" notable events. But, only for something notable. IMO Category:Vanderbilt Trophy players would clearly be silly, but e.g. Category:Vanderbilt Trophy winners would not.

As for other national or international categories which might be appropriate, I would suggest posting in this forum and seeking WP:CONSENSUS. I proposed those two categories because I'll need a lot of convincing that anyone who has played in the BB or VC is not notable. Narky Blert (talk) 23:33, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

I have gone ahead, and created Category:Bermuda Bowl players and Category:Venice Cup players. I have so far populated them only with those British, Mexican and Pakistani players who have articles - easy sets to do; but in sufficient numbers, I would hope, not to attract the attention of a WP:CFD cop. I would welcome comments, before adding those players from other countries who have existing articles.

I did not include NPCs. That is a topic which needs further discussion. (My vote, as of now, would be: don't include.)

Despite my earlier disparagement of lists: articles like List of Vanderbilt Trophy winners could be useful - with the proviso for this WikiProject, no redlinks! unless a redlink justifiably exists elsewhere. (Sharing a comment on an AfD I fell across earlier today - "This article has more redlinks than Lenin's watchchain".) Narky Blert (talk) 23:37, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

I have populated Category:Bermuda Bowl players and Category:Venice Cup players as best I can from existing English-language biographies. Unsurprisingly, that project revealed a shameful fact: 127 BB players have articles; 33 VC players have articles.

I also made a couple of InterWiki links en route. I suspect that many other English articles have equivalents in other languages which they are not linked to. I didn't do a proper search, but Polish Wiki for one has a much better collection of bridge biographies than English Wiki: pl:Kategoria:Brydżyści (e.g. Dutch biographies: Polish 139, English 9; Italian biographies: Polish 89, English 13; Icelandic biographies: Polish 5 (the BB winners?), English none). OK they might not all be WikiNotable under English-Wiki rules, but I'd bet that a lot of them are. E.g. WBF Grand Masters pl:Sally Brock, pl:Heather Dhondy, pl:Nevena Senior, and world champion pl:Fiona Brown. Narky Blert (talk) 01:48, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

It looks to me as if user pl:Wikipedysta:Jsitarz deserves the credit for at least most of those articles in Polish Wiki. He or she seems to have made a massive effort in 2015. What's the Polish for "Barnstar"? Narky Blert (talk) 02:08, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

I was aware that the Polish Wikipedia has some good stuff, and making use of the material to add articles for some of the players you mention has been on my "to do" list since June last year, though sadly so far lethargy has triumphed. See the archive for this talk page for 2016, and the third bullet point of the topic "English Bridge, June 2016". JH (talk page) 08:27, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Notability of bridge players, revisited

I recently proposed that all BB and VC players are notable for that fact alone.

I now propose a broader rule which would encompass that, independent of any other rule about notability: anyone who has a WBF page is WikiNotable.

Categorisation of the events in which they were successful is another matter. I'm thinking no further than player biogs. Narky Blert (talk) 00:45, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

That seems sensible. This would be anyone included under their People Finder tool?Incidentally it's a very annoying site to browse. At the screen resolution I use, the pages overlap the right-hand edge of the screen, but a horizontal scroll bar isn't provided. Poor web design, where the designers seem too have assumed that everyone would be using the same resolution as them. JH (talk page) 08:46, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

RFC on sports notability

An RFC has recently been started regarding a potential change to the notability guidelines for sportspeople. Please join in the conversation. Thank you. Primefac (talk) 23:08, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

info needed on Albert "Dingy" Weiss

Help please! I've been working my way through the maintenance category Category:Date of birth missing, trying to get as many birthdates as possible and add whatever else I find during my research. I've done at least a dozen or so bridge players and I think I found birthdates for almost everyone until Albert Weiss, who unfortunately has a fairly common name.

So, the only info is that he was from Miami Beach, lifespan was 1900–1981 and his nickname was Dingy (which I've also seen spelled Dinghy). There were at least a half dozen people named Albert Weiss born in 1900 with at least three who died in 1981. An article in the 1930s mentioned he was from Chicago then (but still not specific enough). It also appears he invented something named the Weiss system but I couldn't find much about this, only an occasional reference to someone who had used it. I can't find anything resembling an obituary, and in fact, I don't think he died in 1981. I found a syndicated column by Oswaldy Jacob and Alan Sontag from March 1982: "Over-80 Player Still Going Strong" in which they write, "Today the best player over 80 is Albert "Dingy" Weiss of Miami." (screenshot here) I imagine that even if he died on December 31, 1981, by late February Jacob and Sontag would have heard it and would had time to halt the column if sent way in advance. By December 1987, he was mentioned again in another syndicated column, and mentioned in the past tense or as "the late" to indicate he had died. For my sources I'm mainly relying on archives at NYTimes and newspapers.com, as well as various records from databases (re birth, death, immigration, marriage, etc.). I don't have any access to bridge biographies, magazines or encyclopedias.

So anyway, I would really appreciate if anyone could track down more information, especially regarding an accurate date of death. Thanks so much! Also I'm just going through the maintenance category but not everybody with missing dates has been added - if there is anyone you need help finding, please let me know and I will try my best to help. —Мандичка^YO 😜 23:34, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

I'm afraid that I can't help with regard to Albert Weiss, but I'd like to thank you for all the excellent work you've been doing in finding birth dates. JH (talk page) 08:56, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Thanks JH! Hopefully someone will remember or uncover other details about him so we can pinpoint his details. —Мандичка^YO 😜 00:53, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

History of the Laws of Contract Bridge

I have created some material, currently here, which I would like to add to a Wikipedia article. It is all referenced to the Laws of Duplicate Bridge, and is about the scoring, nothing to do with the handling of irreguarities. What do editors believe would be the best place for it? I have considered Bridge scoring, Laws of Duplicate Bridge (which already has a History section), and History of contract bridge. Maproom (talk) 14:35, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for your contribution on this chronology. It is my opinion that the subject of this material is best placed in its own section in Bridge scoring. Newwhist (talk) 20:26, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

2/1 game forcing

Surprised so few people are participating in this deletion discussion, I'd have thought that was a pretty important article from the point of view of this Wikiproject. At WikiProject Chess we have an article alerts page, maybe this project needs something similar? MaxBrowne (talk) 17:23, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

The result was "keep". Newwhist (talk) 20:30, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Articles requiring attention

It seems to me that this well-intended section in the project page has no effect on the priority of editors and I propose to delete it. Any objections? Newwhist (talk) 16:11, 9 December 2017 (UTC)