Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Beer/Archive 8

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New Jersey beer

Hey guys, over at Talk:List_of_wineries,_breweries,_and_distilleries_in_New_Jersey#Red_links_for_non-notable_list_entries, a few folks from WP:WINE and other editors are talking about ways to deal with this list of mostly redlinks. One idea that popped up was that the beer industry in New Jersey, itself, is certainly notable enough to merit its own article even if many of the individual breweries themselves weren't. But we wanted to know what the beer experts thought and if one of you folks had the references available to make such an article. Any input on what WP:BEER thinks about these types of articles is also appreciated. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 18:04, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

We have this guideline: Wikipedia:Notability (breweries), which follows related guidelines and general consensus that information should first be placed in a parent article and when there is sufficient material for a standalone article, should be split out in summary style. See Size, Split, Merge, Notability and Not. The guideline suggests that local breweries are mentioned first in local articles per Local, UK Economy, Settlement Economy, and USA Economy, and when large enough should be split out per WP:Summary style. It is suggested that groupings of breweries can be dealt with in a regional article. These are titled Beer in Foo, - and the main article is at Beer and breweries by region. The USA parent article is Beer in the United States. There are some regional articles such as Beer in Alabama, so New Jersey beer falls within the structure already created, though should be renamed Beer in New Jersey. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 18:01, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

That is not a guideline, it is an essay, written solely by you. There is no consensus for imposing that. --Vclaw (talk) 19:09, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

There were extended discussions in various places, including the talkpage. That one person wrote up the conclusions doesn't mean that was the only person involved. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 21:20, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

You were invited to take part in the discussion, along with every other member of the Project. It was a while ago, so you've no doubt forgotten that. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 21:24, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Beer and food matching

I saved this new stub, and moved it from Beer pairing. Can some folks read and review this, please, and possibly find more sources? Bearian (talk) 23:22, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Pub infoboxes

Hey folks. I've just been made aware of Template:Infobox public house, which includes a space for "phone number", "fax", "serves food" & "wheelchair access". These are sounds awfully like advertising/travel directory information, both of which we don't include on WP. Would anyone complain about me taking those fields out? Worm^TT(talk) 12:04, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

What about beer garden? ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 13:21, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

That seemed more like a description of a pub to me. Wholly arbitrary, I'm sure. Worm^TT(talk) 13:22, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Agree with stripping out those data fields. The whole thing seems a template too far anyway as there's not much data in a pub article to require a template. The Hotel template was merged into Template:Infobox building following this discussion last year. Pub articles either don't need a template, or could use {{Infobox building}} or {{Infobox company}}, as appropriate, if there's a need to present a lot of statistics in an easily digestible form. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 13:30, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

I've just nominated it for deletion. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 23:37, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

AfD nominations for breweries

Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Food_and_drink

Bunch of small breweries up for deletion nomination. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 17:49, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the notice. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 22:13, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Lists of breweries

There is a discussion here Talk:List of breweries in San Diego County, California of possible interest to this project - about what breweries to include on the various "list of breweries in such-and-such place" type articles. --MelanieN (talk) 23:10, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Melanie - I'll take a look later. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 11:09, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Brewing in a Bag

What do you think? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 10:10, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Looks like a sentence in the homebrewing article rather than a full article. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 13:39, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Editing Coors Light Page

I will be editing the wiki page for Coors Light — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chadgale (talk • contribs) 01:44, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Food and Drink WikiProject template redundant?

I saw on the main page of this WikiProject that it is a child project of WikiProject Food and Drink. If the article is primarily of concern to beer (for example, a brewery), should the Food and Drink WikiProject template on the talk page be removed, or should it persist alongside the Beer WikiProject template? Would a bot just re-add the template? Does the F&D template get added to articles that already have child project templates on them? Wingman4l7 (talk) 03:47, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

These articles fall under the purview of both projects. So no, they are not redundant. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 11:04, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

A user may decide that an article would be of interest to a WikiProject and so give it the appropriate WikiProject tag. If there is concern that an article has not been appropriately tagged, so leading to possible talkpage clutter, the best place to raise it would be on the talkpage of the appropriate project. So if Beer belly has a WikiProject Beer tag, then the concern should be raised on WikiProject Beer; and if Pub crawl has a WikiProject Food and Drink tag, then the concern should be raised on WikiProject Food and Drink. And so on. In general, articles can be of interest to a number of projects, and beer is a topic that will have articles of interest to both the beer project and the food and drink project. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 13:46, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Pictures of beers by alcohol by volume

Please see Commons:Category:Beers by alcohol by volume, and help to populate it with subcategories and images. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 23:25, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

FYI: noticeboard discussion

An editor has requested that this WikiProject be notified of this beer-related discussion at the External Links Noticeboard regarding the web sites ratebeer.com and beeradvocate.com. Rivertorch (talk) 04:17, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. Responded. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 12:06, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Trommers Beer - Still Around in the 1970s

The 'Piels Beer' page says that the Trommers brewery was closed in 1955, however it was on sale in the 1970s... I liked the beer and it came in quirky bottles with a lot of excess glue.

I suppose it's my job to track this down now... I'm not a regular Wiki member. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fazookus (talk • contribs) 14:15, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

The Piels brand is owned by the Pabst Brewing Company, who have it contract brewed at Millers in Illinois. See RateBeer. It's worth joining that community and/or Beer Advocate, to chat about beer and get info on where to get hold of your favourite brews. Wikipedia is more about writing the encyclopedia. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 08:50, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

It was common in the 1960s and 1970s, when a brewery closed, for another brewery to buy the rights to the brand name and the trademarks, and to continue selling beer under that name. In the midwestern US, G. Heileman Brewing Company bought numerous brands in this manner, and they're certainly not the only ones who bought up brands in this manner. As such, it was common for a beer brand to live on for years, even decades, after the original brewery ceased operations. Whether the beer bore any resemblance to the original was another matter entirely. mwalimu59 (talk) 20:38, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Beer tasting

Hey all, I am in the process of starting a draft of an article for beer tasting at User:Sadads/Beer tasting. Come on down and help me expand the article with good sources so we can get an excellent DYK. For similar example articles see wine tasting and whisky tasting, Sadads (talk) 17:05, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

I wish you well with that. There are plenty of books on tasting beer - you could ask your local library to get you some. You could also see what is available on Google Books. And various general guides to beer tend to have a section on the flavour of beer, so there is plenty of material. Enough for you to steer away from blogs and rating sites like RateBeer and Beer Advocate, as they are considered questionable as reliable sources. Try this book as a starting point: Beer Tasting ToolKit by Jeff Alworth. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 22:39, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Moved article live, since it's been sitting in sanbox for a while, figure someone else can expand, if you are interested, Sadads (talk) 18:36, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Regional breweries article

I am thinking about writing an article (as opposed to a list) about the beer scene in San Diego County. I have seen encouragement for articles about regional aspects of beer, but I can't find details. How should such an article be titled? Is there a regional beer article you could point to that I could use as a model? Thanks for any help. --MelanieN (talk) 00:23, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

I am not aware of any real ideas about this, because I have not read through the historic discussions here. I would model it after the country articles linked from {{Beers of the world}} and title it "Beer in San Diego". CRwikiCA talk 02:28, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, that's very helpful! --MelanieN (talk) 03:27, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that's good advice. A paragraph in the Economy section of San Diego County, California, with a link to the new article would also be worthwhile. Let me know when you start - I'd like to help out on that. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 18:13, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice; I will value your input. There is already a bare-bones article called List of breweries in San Diego County, California. There is a mention about the beer scene at San Diego#Economy and a significant section at Culture of San Diego#Cuisine, but nothing yet at San Diego County, California; I will add some info there, that's a good suggestion. --MelanieN (talk) 22:23, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

I have started working on an article at User:MelanieN/sandbox. It has a long way to go but I would appreciate any input on the layout, what sections to include, etc. I couldn't find much consistency in format among the other "Beer in..." articles so I am pretty much making it up here. You could comment right there in my sandbox or on the talk page, or wherever seems logical to you. --MelanieN (talk) 05:15, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

OK. I'll watchlist your sandbox, and take a look later. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 09:04, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Finally posted it today. It's at Beer in San Diego County, California. Suggestions/improvements solicited. --MelanieN (talk) 17:56, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Beer brands

Hi BigJolly. I noted your question about beer brands on the Beer Project talkpage. We don't have an article on beer brands as such, though we do have List pages for some major brewery companies that have a range of beer brands, such as Heineken brands, and we have regional articles which may contain details of notable brands see {{Beers of the world}}. There is a category for beer brands: Category:Beer brands which contains those List articles, along with some individual articles on certain brands that do not fit into the sub-cats. Most beer brands are not sufficiently notable or encyclopedic for a stand alone article, so most beer brands are dealt with within a parent article on the brewery. For more advice see: WP:Beer brands. I hope this helps. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 09:18, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying that, User:SilkTork. I get that not every beer is notable enough for an article. That is the case with other types of alcohol too. But I noticed that beer did not have an article similar to List of vodkas, List of whisky brands, List of rum producers or the somewhat related List of cigarette brands. In my opinion, an article that contains a list of beer brands by their country of origin would be useful to have. We dont have a worldwide article on the topic, only region specific ones. While the Beer and breweries by region article, links to this information, there is no article that deals with it directly. BigJolly9 (talk) 14:36, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

There are a lot of beer brands. In the UK alone there can be as much as 1,000 new beer brands produced each month. Most of these are short-lived. Globally, brands are launched to see how they will do, and then are removed or changed as consumer interest fades. It is a complex operation keeping up with that from the uncategorised list approach. On the Beer Project we have tried to organise matters, so it is possible to deal with beer brands on a more helpful level - at regional level, or at producer (brewery) level as indicated above. Even then, we don't mention every brand that a producer makes - just those brands which are notable. We had long discussions a few years ago and decided to do away with beer lists within brewery articles because beer ranges can be quite extensive and variable. Added to which there are many websites out there which already attempt to list beer brands, and are failing. RateBeer and Beer Advocate and others such as BeerMad. Some beer brands, such as Guinness Draught, Stella Artois, Pabst Blue Ribbon, etc, are globally notable, have been around a while, and have sufficient material on them in reliable sources to be suitable for stand alone article, but most brands are not like that. Most of the available material on brands tends to be purely promotional in nature, as companies will send out press releases to trade magazines and newspapers. See WP:PRODUCT for more advice. It is not the role of Wikipedia to promote companies' beer brands for them. We wait until independent, non-promotional, reliable sources have written about a brand in depth before creating an article on that brand. It would be extremely rare that a recent brand would get a standalone article, though if the launch was notable enough, it might get a mention in the parent (brewery or regional) article. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 09:18, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm not talking about making individual articles for each brand. Only a list that would contain atleast the most notable brands, most likely by country of origin. So for example, Budweiser would only be listed under United States or American beer, not under the other countries it is sold in. Although, if we used the format in the cigarette brands article, it might be possible to add that info too. The whisky (or other) articles I mentioned earlier, do not cover every single brand of whisky in the world either. If you click the main Edit Source for the page on the list of vodka and whisky articles, there's a note - " Please do not add entries without either a Wikipedia article or a reliable verifiable source, otherwise it will be removed." That would prevent, ideally anyway, editors from adding brands that are not notable.

WP:LSC discusses the list notability issue. Under that heading, there's WP:CSC which mentions:

• Every entry meets the notability criteria for its own non-redirect article in the English Wikipedia. Red-linked entries are acceptable if the entry is verifiably a member of the listed group, and it is reasonable to expect an article could be forthcoming in the future. This standard prevents Wikipedia from becoming an indiscriminate list, and prevents individual lists from being too large to be useful to readers. Many of the best lists on Wikipedia reflect this type of editorial judgment.
• Every entry in the list fails the notability criteria. These lists are created explicitly because most or all of the listed items do not warrant independent articles: for example, List of minor characters in Dilbert or List of paracetamol brand names.

Plus, WP:NNC states "The criteria applied to article content are not the same as those applied to article creation. The notability guidelines do not apply to article or list content (with the exception that some lists restrict inclusion to notable items or people)." I think we both agree that a list of beer brands is notable. If thats the case, we only need to figure which brands to include. BigJolly9 (talk) 11:56, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

We did many years ago have a simple list of brands, but it was unmanageable and unhelpful. We do, however, attempt to keep track of notable brands, either by having articles on them, or by including them in producer lists, such as Heineken brands, or in regional or brewery articles. We also have Beer and breweries by region which is a list of the regional articles, but we don't have an overall list that joins together the regional articles, the producer lists, and the individual notable brands. It may be worth considering such a list, though it shouldn't simply be a list of brands - it would need to be structured and organised, with a clear criteria so that users would know where to find things, and editors would know how to develop it, and what not to include. At the moment the only list of brands we have, as such, is carried by the category system: Category:Beer, and many readers don't use the category system, preferring a list page. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 22:13, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

I think most readers are unlikely to use the Category system. Its more of an editor feature. But we can use Category:Beer as the basis for a list of beer brands. For example Category:Australian beer brands can be used as the basis for the Australian beer section on the list. Can you clarify what you mean by "it shouldn't simply be a list of brands - it would need to be structured and organised"? Do you mean we should add basic info (launch date, abv/proof, locations brewed, locations sold etc ) about each beer? BigJolly9 (talk) 11:09, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

What I meant was it is not helpful to simply have a list of brand names - with or without basic info. We had that before, and it was unmanageable because of the sheer number of beer brands there are. What I meant, was that it should be structured and organised so that there is a purpose to the list other than merely listing brand names. So, the meta beer brand list would hold links to producer lists, such as Heineken brands, and regional articles, such as those in Beer and breweries by region, but be more user friendly than Category:Beer. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 18:02, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree with that. Having a structured list is definitely better. How do you think it should be organized? We could maybe put the country names, then producer/breweries in those countries (from the respective category) and their brands. I dont think we need to add as much info about each individual brand as Heineken brands, because that is actually an article, and not a list. Some information can be added, but since most of these brands have articles, it may not be necessary. BigJolly9 (talk) 14:34, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Advertising at Peroni Nastro Azzurro

Hello. Came across this fairly blatant bit of advertising, apparently by User:Peroni_Nastro_Azzurro. Have edited the page back to its previous form, a redirect to Peroni Brewery. --IxK85 (talk) 10:52, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Good catch. I've blocked the account. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 12:41, 7 December 2013 (UTC)