Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/4/Archive 78

Archive 75

Archive 76

Archive 77

Archive 78

Remove Stratigraphic unit  5

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VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Physical sciences is at 1 article over quota. This is a sparse article on rocks that seems more suitable for V5. We already list Stratigraphy  4. starship.paint (RUN) 09:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
2. J947 ‡ ^edits 05:52, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
3. _pbp 03:24, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Interstellarity (talk) 00:27, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
5. Makkool (talk) 14:13, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Automotive engineering  5

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Much fewer interwikis than all the other engineering articles listed there (this has 20, the second lowest has 37, the highest has 101). We're over quota in total V4 and V4 Technology. starship.paint (RUN) 08:28, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 08:28, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Support per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 17:15, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:33, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Interstellarity (talk) 00:27, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
5. Makkool (talk) 14:13, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

• I wonder if Computer engineering  5 should be swapped in here? Aszx5000 (talk) 20:13, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

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Add History of Bangladesh  5 and History of the Democratic Republic of the Congo  5

Histories of two high population non-Western countries that would help reduce sysbias. Vileplume (talk) 23:09, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume (talk) 23:09, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Weak support Bangladesh. See my rationale in the Oppose section. feminist🩸 (talk) 06:07, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. Interstellarity (talk) 10:58, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose DRC. Both countries are relatively recent social constructs (DRC 1960; Bangladesh 1971). While Bangladesh is perhaps a middle power with significant exports of clothing, the DRC has little influence internationally. feminist🩸 (talk) 05:51, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

1. Any suggestions for compensating removals? (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 05:20, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Looking back at this, something like History of Kenya  5 is more vital than that of the DRC. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 21:39, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Remove Booting  5

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We are over quota in Level 4 and Booting  5 is nowhere near as important as other computer topics at this level. Given the rise of flash memory chips and instantaneous-booting, I am not sure that this is even a level 5 topic. Aszx5000 (talk) 09:38, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Aszx5000 (talk)
2. Support --Thi (talk) 13:15, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Interstellarity (talk) 00:24, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
4. As nom, but I still think this should be a VA, just at level 5. Mathwriter2718 (talk) 12:05, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
5. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 03:33, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Add Climbing  4

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I think Climbing  4 is at least Level 4. It is the head topic for the established Level 4 sub-topics of Mountaineering  4 and of Rock climbing  4, as well as other Level 5s (e.g. Sport climbing  5). It also includes the Olympic sport of climbing, which is Competition climbing, and should itself be at VA 5 (there are other climbing sub-topics which should also be VA 5). Climbing is equivalent to other Level 3 R&E topics such as Swimming  3. I think Climbing should ultimately be Level 3 but it must get to Level 4 first. Aszx5000 (talk) 16:10, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 16:10, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 14:53, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 14:36, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Interstellarity (talk) 19:09, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
5. I agree that this should probably be Level 3. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:30, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

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Remove Extensive farming  5

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VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Technology is at 44 articles over quota. This is a sparse article that does not appear important enough at this level. Compare with Intensive farming  4. starship.paint (RUN) 09:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Support per nom. --Thi (talk) 13:48, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:17, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Interstellarity (talk) 23:59, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
5. Makkool (talk) 14:13, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Non-binary gender  5

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I feel this is closer to level 3 than to level 5 since it is more common these days. I think level 4 is sufficient for this article. Interstellarity (talk) 16:50, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 16:50, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Sigh, sad oppose from someone who identifies with a nonbinary gender. I would add both Third gender  5 and LGBT first. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 23:31, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Closer to level 3? A sub-type of a level 5 article? No way; strong oppose. The Blue Rider 14:58, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
3. We added LGBT to level 4 (Cewbot is screwing up presently so it does not show) and I think LGBT is sufficient at level 4 over non-binary gender which is less common. starship.paint (RUN) 12:46, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

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Remove Jute  5

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VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Technology is at 44 articles over quota. This topic on a textile does not appear important enough at this level. starship.paint (RUN) 09:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:37, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 19:09, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
4. Interstellarity (talk) 23:58, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
5. Makkool (talk) 16:08, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Domestic short-haired cat

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The article was merged into Moggy  5, which has no interwikis. The content on "domestic short-haired cat" is less than 260 words. starship.paint (RUN) 02:31, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 02:31, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
2. Support domestic pet breeds are overrepresented at this level. Gizza (talk) 00:43, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk)
4. Without a doubt. Interstellarity (talk) 18:39, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
5. This could be removed boldly, as it's a redirect now. Makkool (talk) 14:13, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

• Can we WP:BOLDly swap with Moggy? Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 01:06, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
  • @OhnoitsvileplumeXD: - why should we? We don't list Mongrel  5 (21 interwikis) at V4. starship.paint (RUN) 15:35, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

    @Starship.paint: Domestic short hair cat apparently has 14 interwikis, and Moggy was the article it was merged into. Have we done the same with other articles in the past, or have we removed them? I do agree that this is only a V5 concept, though. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 01:53, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

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Add Breathing  4

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Just added to V5. We (and many other animals) all need to do this to stay alive. Humans can't go without it for 30 minutes. This should be more common than most of the proposals on this page. starship.paint (RUN) 15:11, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 15:11, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
2. 'Support Often gets mistaken for respiration, which is level 3 I believe. The different article about moving ones chest to intake air etc, is still probably lev 4 vital separate from respiration.  Carlwev  15:39, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom Mathwriter2718 (talk) 03:07, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
4. I agree. Basic function of life. Interstellarity (talk) 19:38, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
5. 'Support --Thi (talk) 07:45, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Nirvana (band)  4 and Sex Pistols  5 (Potential swap with The Velvet Underground  5

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Yes, the last thing we need is more rockers, but as you can see through this link, we don't have anyone from the alternative or punk scene. To me, this is a glaring omission, especially when it comes to alternative rock which has arguably been the main form of rock since it broke through. And no, the Velvet Underground does not count for either subgenre; alternative deserves to have someone whose music was made after the initial punk wave, while your average person is probably more likely to categorize VU as art/experimental rock than proto-punk.

For alternative, I'm just going to go with the most obvious candidate. Although R.E.M. were technically the one who demonstrated the commercial viability of alternative rock with Out of Time (they're also usually held to be one of the first alt rock band), most people consider Smells Like Teen Spirit  5 to be thing that truly pushed alternative into the mainstream. There's also the whole "voice of the generation" personality cult that surrounds Kurt Cobain  5.

For punk, I'm not going to lie; it is kind of weird to nominate a band that's usually held to only have one album. But these guys played a huge rule in both spearheading the British punk scene and in shaping punk fashion. They also possess a notoriety that none of the other punk rockers really have.

Support

1. Support both. Swap with VU if necessary. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:03, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Support addition of Nirvana. Relevant in contemporary culture. Swap with The Velvet Underground is also possible. --Thi (talk) 11:45, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Support swap of The Velvet Underground  5 for Nirvana (band)  4, as a clear improvement. Aszx5000 (talk) 16:15, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
4. Swap VU for Nirvana Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:33, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
5. Support removal λ NegativeMP1 02:45, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
6. Support Nirvana and swap 49p (talk) 19:56, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
7. Support swap for Nirvana. Kevinishere15 (talk) 22:01, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose both additions After thinking about this for a while, I fail to see how either of these are worthy of V4. There's too much rock representation here (and at V5, for that matter) to begin with, and even with the removals recently proposed I don't think either of these acts are worthy of V4 in terms of global impact to society as a whole. Nirvana's relevancy in modern culture can basically be summarized to T-shirts and one song. And while I don't deny that they both are certainly influential, I can't see them being impactful or widespread on a similar level as Queen (band) or Elvis Presley. I think V5 is a good spot for them. λ NegativeMP1 02:45, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Oppose Sex Pistols, we can probably use a better punk band. Ramones and the Clash are much better picks imo. 49p (talk) 19:56, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

1. @SailorGardevoir: V4 is drastically over quota, and this proposal even if fully enacted would bring the count up by one. Is there one more artist/band even outside of this genre that you would want to propose the removal of? λ NegativeMP1 02:25, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

   I've already made it clear that I'm content with swapping Joan Baez, Dolly Parton and/or Buddy Holly out for Run-DMC and Kanye West, but other than Baez no one has shown any interest in removing them. SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:16, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

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Add Run-DMC  4 and Kanye West  5 (potential swap with Joan Baez  5 and Dolly Parton  4/Buddy Holly  4)

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We got to have more rappers than just Tupac Shakur. Hip-hop just celebrated its 50th anniversary last year, and it’s one of the biggest genres in the world right now. It is certainly more popular than country or (European) folk, which we decided for each genre to list three of its musicians on here (four if you count Bob Dylan and to a much lesser extent Taylor Swift). I think we need at least two more hip-hop musicians on here.

Run-DMC is probably the easiest group we can promote. They are frequently called “the Beatles of hip-hop”, and for good reason. Besides being the first rappers to have their videos played on MTV and be featured on the cover of Rolling Stone, they are also the first hip-hop act to go gold, platinum, and multi-platinum. Not only that, they are arguably single-handily responsible for transforming hip-hop from old-school to new-school, with not just their music (rejecting the disco-driven party anthems in favor of hard-edge rhymes and drum machine-heavy beats) but even with the way they dress. (Before, rappers used to wear dramatic, flashy outfits when performing. Run-DMC eschewed that with, well, regular street clothes, including most famously Adidas shoes.)

Now, I would prefer if we just add these guys, but I understand if we need to swap someone out in order to include them. Baez is probably the least vital person in country and folk. For one, we have her former boyfriend, Bob Dylan. I know he’s listed under rock, but unlike Swift who has abandoned country completely, Dylan’s music by in large still has some folk elements to it. More importantly however, she is just largely not known as a songwriter. For folk musicians, especially contemporary ones, singing your own compositions is pretty big deal, and while she has written her own material, they are not on par with those of Woody Guthrie and Joni Mitchell.

I will admit that it took me quite a while to come up with another person to promote to Level 4. I ultimately decided to nominate Ye, but if someone thinks that there’s a better person to promote, feel free to speak up. West is usually held to be one of the hip hop musicians of all time. Maybe not as a rapper, but definitely as a producer. Six of his albums are on the latest version of Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Albums of All Time. Him beating 50 Cent on the album charts with his third album is usually held to bring end of gangsta rap-era of hip hop.

Again, I understand if we need to swap someone before we include him. Again, I don’t think country and folk needs that many people, and after Baez, Dolly Parton is probably the least vital. However, I am open to swapping West with Buddy Holly. We got plenty of rockers, and while his death is tragic, I don’t think his music or status as an icon is as revolutionary or as big as Nirvana.

Support

1. As nom. Swap with Joan Baez and Dolly Parton respectively if necessary. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:44, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Support Add Run DMC. I was an occaisional college radio station DJ/contributor in these days. They are the group that commercialized rap with their first three albums that went gold, platinum and multiplatinum. Those three albums paved the way for "Licensed to Ill" and then the floodgates for Rap music.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:08, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Support addition of Run-DMC with no other changes. Baez, Parton and Holly each independently warrant level 4. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 21:29, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Support additions and removal of Joan Baez. Hip-hop has been the world's most popular music genre for over a decade, while Baez has become a bit of a cultural totem, I'm afraid. An enduring figure, but her actual music (songs, albums) is rarely celebrated compared to other V4 pop artists. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 01:47, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Support both addition (Kanye is weak support, just due to recentism + other comparable acts), removal of Baez as well. Holly and Parton are too vital. 49p (talk) 06:45, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
6. Support Run DMC and removal of Baez. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:09, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
7. After a bit of thinking, I support the addition of Run DMC and removal of Joan Baez, but I maintain my oppose towards Kanye West. λ NegativeMP1 16:04, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
8. Support removal of Joan Baez. --Thi (talk) 08:05, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose addition of Kanye West as too recent. --Thi (talk) 14:05, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
2. I concur the comment below outside of voting that Eminem  5 is likely more worthy of V4 than Kanye West. λ NegativeMP1 20:34, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Oppose, bites off too much. Run-DMC maybe, but Kanye is better known for antics than rap. Debate over who is the most vital rapper is far above this. Disagree offhand with all proposed removals. Hyperbolick (talk) 22:04, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

   So you're content with just having 2Pac on here? Because right now he is the only rapper we have. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:55, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

The best selling hip hop artist is Eminem  5, who also ranks higher than Ye in the Billboard and Vibe's 50 Greatest Rappers of All Time. I think he is ahead of Ye. Run DMC is significant for different reasons though as early pioneers and it's harder to compare them with contemporary rappers. Gizza (talk) 23:56, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

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Add Bilbao  5

Spain looks a bit underrepresented with only five cities compared to Poland and Ukraine getting six each. Bilbao has a metro area of over a million, more than 50% larger than Zaragoza  4 and the largest city in Northern Spain, and particularly the Basque Country (autonomous community)  4. I'd also add Lille  5, but France is already well-represented. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 00:58, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 00:58, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Support --Thi (talk) 08:16, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Bilbao is not a level 4 city, would rather add the historical Salamanca  5. The Blue Rider 14:46, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

   If Bilbao is not V4-worthy, neither is Salamanca. Bilbao has 121 interwikis compared to Salamanca's 100 and over triple Salamanca's pageviews. Salamanca is also much smaller than the other European cities excluding Syracuse, Sicily  4. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 15:19, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

   Not sure why people love to use these metrics so much; Salamanca might not be a big city population wise but it has a strong historical, cultural and theoligical influence, contrary with Bilbao. The Blue Rider 15:35, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

Move Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab  4 to the Sunni section

Setting aside on whether we should place the Sufis in their own separate section, why is he not under the Sunni section? Wahhabism is very strictly a Sunni thing.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:03, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Support per nom. --Thi (talk) 12:43, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Drainage  4 and add Storm drain

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The former article was merged into the latter. IDBLWK (talk) 13:16, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. IDBLWK (talk) 13:31, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 20:58, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. There was no consensus for such merge, I will be reverting it. The Blue Rider 23:17, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Swap: add Gaza Strip  4, remove Gaza City  5

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The territory is more important than its primary settlement.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🩸 (talk) 17:02, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Support --Thi (talk) 18:14, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 06:22, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:30, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
5. I think that Gaza Strip  4 has overtaken in terms of notability and vitality. Aszx5000 (talk) 10:20, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

1. Neutral, leaning support per Carlwev. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:31, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

The city is thousands of years old, the territory only came into in the 1940s. Gaza Strip is of similar importance as West Bank should we include one without the other? Should we have both or neither? And why? Was discused 11 years ago when Gaza was added [1].  Carlwev  09:20, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

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Move Fertile Crescent  4 from History to Geography

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The fertile crescent in the Near East is more a region that's relevant in geography even today, rather than a historical concept that happened in the past. The article even talks about biodiversity and climate before its history. So I'm proposing moving it away from Ancient History to Regions and country subdivisions.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 00:07, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Itaipu Dam  4

VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Technology is at 44 articles over quota. This is the third largest hydroelectric dam in the world, which produces the second most hydroelectric energy, but it has been eclipsed in both regards by the Three Gorges Dam  4. starship.paint (RUN) 09:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Support per nom. --Thi (talk) 13:44, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. It got named as one of the seven modern wonders of the world. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:17, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

   @SailorGardevoir: - That was in 1995, in a publication that simultaneously named the 7 Wonders of the Future, which lists ... the Three Gorges Dam  4, which according to this publication will be outmuscling Itaipu by 50%. starship.paint (RUN) 08:41, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Landline  5

The opposite of Mobile phone  3. Has historical significance though not as common as it used to be. Interstellarity (talk) 23:13, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 23:13, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Telephone  3 and Mobile phone  3 are both VA3, and this used to be very important as the main type of phone before mobile phones, so it makes sense at VA4. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:21, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I would prefer to see History of the telephone  5 elevated to Level/4. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 08:03, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

   +1 This proposal makes more sense given that Landline will be dispatched to history. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:11, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

Remove Smilodon  4

Smilodon isn't really more taxonomically significant compared to other machairodontines like Machairodus which has an older taxonomic history and is the defining type genus. While it may be the most culturally significant one based on stereotypical machairodontine designs, there's not much strong indication that people are necessarily familiar with the specific genus. Level 5 should suit it fine. PrimalMustelid (talk) 17:02, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. per nom. PrimalMustelid (talk) 17:02, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. per all recorded pageviews, Smilodon is at over 1,467 per day, Machairodus is at 72 per day, and Machairodontinae is at 181 per day. Smilidon is close to Carnivora  4 at 1,527 per day and above Mustelidae  4 at 1,335 per day. starship.paint (RUN) 14:24, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

   We don't list all individual pages that amount to over 1,000 views a day to level 4, though. Smilodon has a weaker paleontological influence unlike say Mammuthus which not only is culturally iconic but has over 3 centuries of taxonomic importance that has been recognized by many paleontological historians. PrimalMustelid (talk) 14:32, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

   Mammuthus has even fewer views (1,337 per day) than Smilodon. I interpret this that people are actually familiar with the specific genus Smilodon. Machairodus may have been discovered 15 years earlier but is basically culturally irrelevant today. I see both Mammuthus and Smilodon as viable representatives of Pleistocene megafauna. starship.paint (RUN) 14:57, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

   If we're talking about Neogene-Quaternary faunas, I can name plenty of genera that have been credited with more paleontological significance while having strong cultural influences, and I wouldn't place too much weight on Wikipedia pageviews. The issue with Smilodon here is that even if it is the most iconic machairodontine, it doesn't necessarily stray too far from other machairodontines, either; rather Smilodon and other machairodontines are represented as "saber-tooth cat" archetypes that do not closely align with any specific genus. This is unlike specific dinosaur genera that are clearly intended to be represented individually in fictional works. Or well, mammoths, which are clearly well-represented even if primarily known by the woolly mammoth. There's nothing wrong with it being a level 5 vital article at all, it's still on par with plenty of important genera like Palaeotherium, Coryphodon, Deinotherium, Hipparion, Mammut, Megaloceros, Megatherium, and such. PrimalMustelid (talk) 16:18, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

   The alternative is to replace Smilodon with the Machairodontinae as a compromise, but I'm not particularly confident over that idea. PrimalMustelid (talk) 16:21, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

   Clearly not on par for most of them. starship.paint (RUN) 03:06, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

2. Well, it only gets more views because it is a carnivore. Nevertheless, saber-toothed tigers are culturally and paleontologically relevant. The Blue Rider 16:49, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

   If we are willing to define the "saber-tooth cats" as a group as "vital," we can perhaps consider if we should swap out Smilodon with the Machairodontinae. PrimalMustelid (talk) 18:18, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Scam  5 to Crime

Scams involve over a trillion dollars each year, and are here to stay.

Support

1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:49, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
2. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:30, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 01:33, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose don't think it stands out compared to other types of fraud at this level. Gizza (talk) 23:23, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

• Is this sufficiently distinct from Fraud  4? Aszx5000 (talk) 17:19, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Remove Hoover Dam  4

VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Technology is at 44 articles over quota, so we've got to take action. This was big in its heyday in the 1930s, but seems to have been eclipsed in all regards today. Not sure if it would be listed if it was not American. starship.paint (RUN) 09:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom, American bias. The Itaipu Dam, also proposed for removal, is bigger and better and costlier. The role history and iconicness has to play here is IMO not massive – dams are listed primarily for technological reasons. J947 ‡ ^edits 05:58, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Major tourist attraction. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:21, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Regularly listed as the most iconic dam in history, E.g. here, here. Aszx5000 (talk) 17:25, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

   @Aszx5000: - your links do not back up most iconic dam in history, Guardian just says iconic and Interesting Engineering says one of the most iconic. starship.paint (RUN) 03:26, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

   Doesn't the Interesting Engineering say Hoover Dam in the USA is probably one of the most iconic of all dams in it header? thanks. Aszx5000 (talk) 08:26, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

   @Aszx5000: - it absolutely does say that, but that's a double qualifier, probably and one of the most, not the most iconic dam in history. It's like CNN saying Elizabeth II was probably one of the most photographed women in history, but me claiming Elizabeth was the most photographed woman in history. starship.paint (RUN) 15:21, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Add History of the telephone  5

Per Landline discussion. Interstellarity (talk) 12:04, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 12:04, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Move Tyre, Lebanon  4 from History to Geography

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Yes, Tyre is a historical city and appears in ancient history. It is one of the oldest continously inhabited cities, but it is continously inhabited, even today. We do list other ancient cities like Alexandria  4 and Syracuse, Sicily  4 in the Geography section, so I can't see why we shouldn't list Tyre there as well.

Support

1. per nom. Makkool (talk) 05:53, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom Mathwriter2718 (talk) 03:05, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
3. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 03:14, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
4. Iostn (talk) 22:47, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom. Nervelita :3🏳️‍⚧️ (talk) 09:56, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

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No television series listings?

Reading this list (specifically Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/4/Arts) made me notice that we list no examples of television series at V4. I feel that, if we list any video game related subjects here and around 33 films, there's probably room for a few TV series, even more so since Arts is technically 25 articles under its quota. Is there a specific reason why none are listed? λ NegativeMP1 23:09, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

We do have a few, under Society/Mass media. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 23:27, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Wasn't where I expected them to be, my bad. λ NegativeMP1 23:40, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

An unintuitive inconsistency, I'd rather have broadcast fiction under Arts too.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 06:35, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah I agree. With some of the listings, putting individual shows under that might make sense (ex. Sesame Street  4) but the vast majority as well as the category itself do not. Should we consider a wider discussion to move them over to Arts? Would also redistribute items from an over-quota area to an under-quota area. λ NegativeMP1 18:02, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Add Private transport  5

Should be on the same level as Public transport which is an important type of transit. Interstellarity (talk) 13:58, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 13:58, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. The concept itself isn't that important and that shows in the interwikis; Car  3 should already cover it. The Blue Rider 14:47, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

Add Tony Hawk  5 or Rodney Mullen  5

We don't include any people known for Skateboarding  4 in VA4, but we do have two for Speed skating  4 so I believe we should have at least one or two. The easiest suggestion is Tony Hawk or Rodney Mullen. Rodney Mullen is known as "the godfather of skateboarding." He created multiple skateboarding tricks, such as the flatground ollie, kickflip, heelflip, etc. (which are considered the basis of skateboarding) Tony Hawk is much more known for his work in the media. He performed the first ever "900," (where many people doubted the possibility of it happening) had a popular game series of his own name, and pioneered vertical skateboarding. Hawk is arguably the most known figure in skateboarding, but Mullen is possibly the most influential in skateboarding. I'm fine with adding either or both.

Support

1. per nom49p (talk) 00:31, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Support Tony-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:13, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. The speed skaters are obscure figures, leagues below footballers we don't list and should be removed. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 01:30, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Oppose per above. --Thi (talk) 08:00, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Swap Dialysis (chemistry)  5 with Hemodialysis  5

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The article Dialysis (chemistry) is about a concept in chemistry, but it is listed in Biology and health sciences. I believe the intention has been to include dialysis as medical treatment, but the article for that is hemodialysis. I suggest we swap the articles, or at least add hemodialysis and move dialysis (chemistry) to Chemistry.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 20:14, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Sepak takraw  5

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Has never been contested in the Olympics and seems to be primarily contested in a handful of countries in Southeast Asia _pbp 15:35, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 15:35, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
2. Support --Thi (talk) 18:07, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. Nervelita :3🏳️‍⚧️ (talk) 09:41, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 16:37, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
5. Makkool (talk) 18:29, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Add Music genre  4

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Remains an inescapable concept in the way we talk about music.

Support

1. As nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 01:57, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
2. λ NegativeMP1 18:15, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Interstellarity (talk) 00:26, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nom. Nervelita :3🏳️‍⚧️ (talk) 09:28, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 19:15, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Price  4 to Business and economics

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Key economic concept that we interact with very commonly (just promoted to V5). 75 interwikis. starship.paint (RUN) 01:52, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:52, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 19:06, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Interstellarity (talk) 00:26, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nom. Nervelita :3🏳️‍⚧️ (talk) 09:26, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
5. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 08:55, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Orienteering  5

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VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Everyday life is at 23 articles over quota. This is a niche sport more suitable for V5, I believe. starship.paint (RUN) 09:21, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:21, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Of the three sports you suggested removing, orienteering seems to be the most niche by a good amount. Seems less vital to me than your typical V4. Mathwriter2718 (talk) 03:02, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk)
4. Makkool (talk) 17:59, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
5. Not in the Olympics 17:34, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
6. support as someone who actively participates in orienteering. I think all sports are overrepresented and over-emphasized in the vital articles.

Oppose

1. Oppose  Carlwev  12:49, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Oppose --Thi (talk) 13:51, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

@Carlwev:, @Thi: I'm curious: what's your rationale for this at VA4? _pbp 21:43, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

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Add Coup d’etat

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Related discussion: Wikipedia_talk:Vital_articles/Level/5/Society#Add_Coup_d’etat

I am nominating this here although it isn't quite level 5 yet and will very likely be so once the discussion closes. There was also support to add this article to level 4 in that discussion and I think starting this discussion now is probably sufficient. Interstellarity (talk) 22:36, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 22:36, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
2. As someone who stated it should be V4 over in the V5 discussion. λ NegativeMP1 16:06, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Support per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 12:32, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
4. Very important. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:42, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
5. Important, support per nomination. — BerryForPerpetuity (talk) 18:14, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

# Per WP:VANOSKIP, this should be added for Level 5 first, and then considered after. Aszx5000 (talk) 10:08, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

@Aszx5000: This article is now level 5, would you consider switching to support now that this article is level 5? Interstellarity (talk) 12:29, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Supported that now Interstellarity. thanks for that. Aszx5000 (talk) 12:32, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

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Add Behavior

I know we list Human behavior at L3, I think adding this article to level 4 would be helpful since it is important to cover the behavior of other organisms. Interstellarity (talk) 23:03, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 23:03, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Proposal: Allow only either additions or removals until we reach quota on level 4. After that, only swaps would be allowed.

There seems to be an issue with trying to reach quota. I was figuring that the way to solve this is to only allow additions if we are under quota and removals if we are over quota so that we can reach a reasonable compromise on what articles we can add and remove. Interstellarity (talk) 22:52, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

As a permanent rule, it is too unflexible and impractical, but at some point we can start a campaign to meet the quotas. --Thi (talk) 09:18, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Swap Andhra Pradesh  4 for Madhya Pradesh  5

This is an important state we don't list. It is higher in population and is similar in GDP to other states in India. Interstellarity (talk) 22:29, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 22:29, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
2. Support addition. On the topic of country subdivisions, there are open discussions about adding São Paulo or swapping with Minas Gerais, swapping British Columbia with Ohio (I can name at least half a dozen US states that aren't listed but deserve to be here more than BC), and your proposal to remove Northern Ireland and Wales (which has no chance of passing, but I'd still support a swap between Cardiff or Belfast and Bristol). Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:09, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Regarding the domestic short-haired cat

Does anyone know how to move interwikis? Someone just did a bold merge with both domestic short-haired cat and domestic long-haired cat to moggy, and now all the original interwikis for both pages are sitting at redirect pages. SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:26, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

I've merged items in Wikidata before, but I think in this case it should stay as it is until every language version does the same merge. We can't move all the interwikis to the same item as long as some Wikis have separate articles on short-haired and long-haired house cats. All we could do now is move all the interwikis that are about house cats in general to moggy. Makkool (talk) 17:17, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Swap Husband  4 and Wife  4 with Spouse  5

We don't list Brother  5 or Sister  5 when we list Sibling  4. I feel it would make sense to swap these two out. I might also consider removing either Parent  4 or both Father  4 and Mother  4. Interstellarity (talk) 21:28, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 21:28, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
2. Support --Thi (talk) 08:32, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Support per nom. J947 ‡ ^edits 22:19, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose most societies have stronger gender differences and there are vast differences is the role of husbands and wives. Spouse is just a boring legal term, which is why the articles is much shorter in length. There isn't much to talk about spouses which isn't in the marriage article itself. Gizza (talk) 00:41, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

   @DaGizza: Interesting you oppose this nomination. I would also like to point that we list Parent as well as Father and Mother. Would you consider supporting removing Parent if that were nominated? I would feel inclined that you would oppose removing father and mother, so I'm interested in your thoughts on whether you support the removal of parent. Interstellarity (talk) 01:01, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

2. Oppose, I do think Gizza has a point that around the world, the roles/concept of Husband and Wife are still at Level 4 in importance, so they should remain for now. Perhaps we should add Spouse in the same way/fmt that we have Parent and Father/Mother? They seem like an equivalent situation. Aszx5000 (talk) 10:03, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

Remove Cousin  4

I don't think it makes sense to list cousin when we don't list Uncle  5 or Aunt  5. Interstellarity (talk) 00:58, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 00:58, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

   Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 09:39, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

• Thinking about this again, I think we should add Uncle  5 and Aunt  5. These are some of the most important relationships/concepts in any human's life, no matter where they are in the world. They should be at Level 4 (there is plenty of stuff in Level 4 that would rank well behind these two concepts in importance to a given human). Aszx5000 (talk) 10:53, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Move Google  4, YouTube  4, Facebook  4, and Wikipedia  4 to Technology

Seems to be the right place for them. They are there at level 5. Interstellarity (talk) 16:20, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

I feel that these are more companies/businesses than a "technology" (i.e. like Internet  3). Aszx5000 (talk) 14:06, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Agree. They are listed in technology only because on level 5 they are considered as "web sites" rather than "companies". It seems we can't achieve a satisfying solution and we'll have to list some of them at Society and social sciences and some of them at Technology on level 5. Makkool (talk) 12:47, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Add Uncle, Aunt, and Niece and nephew

These terms are important relatives of the family. They are a big part of many families. Interstellarity (talk) 21:19, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 21:19, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Add Son and Daughter

The opposite of Father and Mother, these should be listed since these are part of almost every family. Interstellarity (talk) 21:21, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 21:21, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Add Anarchy

We list anarchism, but not this article. Interstellarity (talk) 22:04, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 22:04, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Conditional oppose. I will note that of the major forms of governance, Anarchy  5 comes alongside Democracy  3, Oligarchy  4 and Autocracy  5. At their current levels, I can't support anarchy being moved up to VA4 while autocracy remains at VA5. I'm saying this as someone working on improving the anarchy article. If autocracy is also moved to VA4, I'll consider supporting. --Grnrchst (talk) 12:04, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

Add Autocracy

Per suggestion in Anarchy discussion. Interstellarity (talk) 19:48, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 19:48, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Add Barbarian  5

Recently added at VA5, worth discussion here I reckon.

Support

1. Support as nom. J947 ‡ ^edits 02:50, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Interstellarity (talk) 00:38, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

• @J947: - can you propose to remove something? We are already over quota. I firmly believe that nominators and supporters should do the work to keep us within the quota, instead of having other editors have to put in the effort to find more articles to remove. starship.paint (RUN) 07:52, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Regarding Valmiki  4

Why isn't he under writers? SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:34, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

• @SailorGardevoir: - just go ahead and shift him. starship.paint (RUN) 07:46, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  Are you sure? I just want to know what's the rationale of him being under Hindu figures and not writers. SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:20, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  @SailorGardevoir: the first author in all history to bring himself into his own composition. starship.paint (RUN) 12:19, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  Yeah, I'm just going to make this topic a move discussion. Other than moving people who are placed in the wrong time period, I'm not comfortable messing with the level 4 and higher pages. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:43, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Move Valmiki to writers

OK, this is now officially a move discussion. Other than the Ramayana  4 being an important Hindu text, there doesn't seem to be any rationale for why he's under religious figures and not writers.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:43, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:19, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Propose quota change: Technology +20, Biological and health sciences -20

Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/4/Biology and health sciences is at 1481/1500. I propose to lower the quota to 1480. Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/4/Technology is at 744/700. I propose to increase the quota to 720. I've looked through the whole list and I am not sure what else to remove from Technology, if you oppose this, please help remove something. starship.paint (RUN) 09:14, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:14, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Biology also needs a quota reduction at V5 to a much greater extent. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 12:14, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Makes sense. Aszx5000 (talk) 13:46, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Makkool (talk) 06:48, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

• Should we also reduce ~20 quota each for Arts and Philosophy and increase quota for Everyday Life and Society? Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 12:30, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
  • @OhnoitsvileplumeXD: - I haven’t comprehensively looked through both everyday life and society to conclude that everything there is indeed (on the surface) vital. Everyday life will be easier to do since it’s half the size of society. Essentially, we could possibly trim more from those categories. starship.paint (RUN) 01:17, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Add Scandal

Just added to L5, might be worthy of L4. Interstellarity (talk) 20:00, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 20:00, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Add Giza pyramid complex

We list Great Pyramid of Giza at level 3, so I think it makes sense to list this at level 4. Interstellarity (talk) 12:04, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 12:04, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Hoben7599 (talk) 15:20, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Both Great Pyramid of Giza and Great Sphinx of Giza are listed at this level. Case for pyramid and other specific structures at level 3 is not very strong. --Thi (talk) 16:10, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

Swap Northeast India for Assam

Other than the US, where we list its major regions, this is the only region of India that we list. Assam contains the majority of this region's population so we could consider a swap considering that I think Assam is worthy of level 4 on its own. Interstellarity (talk) 23:11, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 23:11, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Notice of level 4 VA discussion

There is an ongoing discussion to swap out Safavid dynasty  4 for Safavid Iran on the Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/5/History and geography page that pertains to this talk page as well. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 01:34, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Add Memoir

An important type of book alongside Biography. Interstellarity (talk) 22:48, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 22:48, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Move Dentures  4 from Biology and health sciences to Technology/Medical technology

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Dentures are an example of a medical device. We have every other medical device listed in the medical technology section except this.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 20:10, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Support --Thi (talk) 21:15, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
3. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 02:24, 5 October 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Jusdafax (talk) 19:58, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
5.  Carlwev  04:05, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Softball  4

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VA4 Everyday life is currently at 18 articles over quota. This seems to be another niche sport more suitable for V5.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 17:26, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
2. Support --Thi (talk) 20:56, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Softball isn't a niche sport tf. It's been contested in the Olympics. If everyday life is over quota, there are better removes _pbp 18:33, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
2. Per PBP. The opinion of this being a "niche sport" over many other sports or everyday life lists here is absurd. λ NegativeMP1 05:08, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
3. Played in over 100 countries and in the Olympics as well. starship.paint (RUN) 11:28, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
4. Even if it was only played in the US, it's such a core part of the American cultural fabric that I believe it would still merit VA4 (similar to how American football  4 is basically only played seriously in the US and is still VA4). But as everyone above mentioned, it is a fairly international sport and has been represented in the Olympics on and off (it will be back in 2028). Aurangzebra (talk) 23:57, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

@Makkool: @Thi: Could you explain your support more in detail, and could you also explain why softball in particular is a "niche sport" and not some of the other sports that are listed at VA4 are not? _pbp 22:25, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Baseball is not popular in all countries. I doubt the varition of a particular game is significant. --Thi (talk) 08:38, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

My opinion is the same as Thi's. It's a variant of another sport, and it doesn't have wide international popularity. Makkool (talk) 11:34, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

In the sports section, we also have Kabaddi, netball, sepak takraw, roller skating, jiu-jitsu (both regular and Brazilian), capoeria, kickboxing, Muay Thai, arm wrestling, ten-pin bowling, bullfighting, two types of cue sports, rodeo, and squash, none of which have ever been in the Olympics and several of which have their popularity confined to a single country or small handful of countries. Why is softball being singled out, when it's been contested in the Olympics and those haven't? We also have ten different permutations of track and field. And what about some of the more arcane terminologies elsewhere in the everyday life section? _pbp 14:09, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Many of those have grounds for removal, feel free to propose them too! I wasn't singling out softball, starship.paint has suggested several other sports to be removed. Even if this doesn't get enough support, we're gonna have a sufficient group of sports to cut. Makkool (talk) 15:57, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

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Add Stevie Wonder  4

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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No matter what your criteria is for VA4 inclusion, Stevie Wonder has them all covered:

- You care about innovation and contributions to the field? Stevie Wonder drove R&B into the album era and was the first to successfully use albums to craft a cohesive statement as opposed to a hodgepodge of singles. He is also considered a pioneer in soul, funk, and R&B and has been an influence for a countless number of musicians. His albums during his classic period determined "the shape of pop music for the next decade" according to the Rolling Stone Record Guide.

- You care about awards and achievements? He has won 25 Grammys (the most of any solo male artist ever). He is also the tied-record holder for most Best Album of the Year wins and the only artist ever to win the award with three consecutive releases. He has been inducted into the Rhythm and Blues Music Hall of Fame, Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and Songwriters Hall of Fame.

- You care about critical acclaim? He is the 7th greatest vocalist according to the Rolling Stones' 200 Greatest Singers of All Time and the 15th greatest artist of all time according to the Rolling Stones' 100 Greatest Artists of All Time (every single person ahead of him on the latter list is VA4). His three 'classic period' albums are in the top 60 of the Rolling Stones' 500 Greatest Albums of All Time and Songs in the Key of Life is at #4 (he also has another album in the top 300). He has 5 songs in the Rolling Stones' 500 Greatest Songs of All Time including Superstition (song) which is at #12. He is also Top-importance at both WikiProject Musicians and WikiProject R&B and Soul Music.

- You care about global popularity/legacy/influence? He is a household name and he is included on the list of best-selling music artists of all time with 30 top-10 hits, 10 #1 hits, and 20 R&B #1 hits. Elton John once said that only four musicians will stand the test of time centuries from now: Louis Armstrong  3, Duke Ellington  4, Ray Charles  4, and Stevie Wonder. He's even had social impact; he was a key figure in getting Martin Luther King Day established as a federal holiday in the US and he was heavily involved in civil rights and desegregation busing efforts.

I don't know who I would choose to replace him. I feel like Marvin Gaye  4, Aretha Franklin  4, and Ray Charles  4 deserve to be on here (though I will say that Stevie Wonder probably deserves to be on here more than some of these articles). I think The Supremes  4 have the weakest claim to VA4 in that category but I hesitate to remove them because I still think they are VA4-worthy. Ideally we can slot Stevie Wonder in here without removing anyone but if we must, we can also look at other musical categories. Aurangzebra (talk) 06:54, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 06:54, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
2. I'm actually surprised he wasn't listed already. He's easily more worthy of this level than several other artists or bands. I would normally be hesitant to support a proposal to add someone without a swap, but he's a perfect fit for this level. It would also seem that People is technically under quota (by 6), so I don't see any problem with adding him right now. λ NegativeMP1 01:51, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

   I looked into it after I proposed it and it seems like he was on here but was removed [2]. There wasn't really any reasoning beyond the fact that the proposer thought he was on the same level as Elton John who they had just removed and the fact they didn't believe he was in the top 150 musical artists of all time. The former is untrue considering the fact that Elton John himself considers Stevie Wonder one of the four greatest musicians of all time (and he doesn't include himself on that list) and the rankings/stats I bring up above seem to suggest that the latter is untrue as well. Aurangzebra (talk) 03:53, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

3. Absolutely. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 11:51, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
4. Also surprised he’s not listed already. Jusdafax (talk) 19:56, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom. Although I'd like to hear the arguments against Elton John being VA-4 as well, does he just not have the same level of critical acclaim? CopiousAmountofCannons (talk) 17:39, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
6. Easy choice, someone needs to explain to me why Elton John isn't V4. Idiosincrático (talk) 10:49, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

   Though I feel less strongly about Elton John than I do Stevie Wonder, I would support a VA4 proposal for Elton John. Aurangzebra (talk) 23:00, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add The Clash

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Very clear that the sex pistols addition isn't getting added, and certainly V4 is getting overflowed. But we list punk rock at V4, yet don't include any bands. We also list electronic music at V4 and have 2 artists that are electronic (namely, Brian Eno  4 and Kraftwerk  4). So it seems fair to have at least one punk artist listed. The Clash is probably the safest bet to put at VA4 for punk rock, other than maybe Ramones or Patti Smith. They were arguably commercially successful, and London Calling  5 is extremely praised. Top importance on the wikiproject for rock music.

Support

1. 49p (talk) 17:00, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. _pbp 18:46, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
2. Hmmm, as much as I like The Clash, I would say that Green Day  5 is more influential within and outside of punk rock. The Blue Rider 14:35, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
3. Ehhh... we have a lot of rock bands at V4 and I'm not sure if these guys meet the mark V4 stands for even as representation for punk. I don't deny their influence, they are definitely important and I do agree that we should have a punk-related group at V4, but at this level we still need to consider their impact on a global scale, and I think the only punk group that might meet that mark is Green Day. But I could probably be convinced otherwise. λ NegativeMP1 05:14, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

1. I am aware they are not punk, but from heavy metal or rock in general, we have removed Metallica, U2 and Bruce Springsteen among others. My instincts say The Clash are not more vital than them.  Carlwev  15:27, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Metallica should be readded. I don't believe we have any representation of Heavy metal music  4, a very popular genre, at this level. They are a globally popular (literally, they've even played in Antarctic) and influential band on similar levels as Nirvana (band)  4, which we just added (though I still somewhat disagree with that addition). λ NegativeMP1 05:14, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

1. Don't want to dogpile the opposes but I don't believe any punk rock artists have made the cut for VA4. However, I will say that if we do decide a punk band should be included in VA4, The Clash would 100% be the best addition (followed by the Ramones then the Sex Pistols imo). Aurangzebra (talk) 23:53, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Biathlon  4

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VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Everyday life is at 23 articles over quota. This is a niche sport more suitable for V5, I believe. starship.paint (RUN) 09:21, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:21, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Nervelita :3🏳️‍⚧️ (talk) 09:29, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 19:07, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Unlike some of the other sports nominated, it IS contested in the Olympics _pbp 03:21, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
2. --Thi (talk) 22:40, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 13:14, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
4. Idiosincrático (talk) 20:12, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

1. Ole Einar Bjørndalen  4 is a biathlete listed as level 4 vital sports figure. Should he be removed as well, if we lose biathlon? Makkool (talk) 17:59, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

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African capitals: swap Gaborone  4 and Windhoek  4 out for Bangui  4 and Nouakchott  4

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Gaborone  4 and Windhoek  4 are significantly smaller cities in smaller countries than Bangui  4 and Nouakchott  4. The current listing is a result of bias against CAR and Mauritania, less generally visible African countries in English media than Botswana and Namibia.

Support

1. Support as nom. J947 ‡ ^edits 00:59, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
2. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 01:04, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
3. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 14:26, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:09, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Support additions Interstellarity (talk) 20:40, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose removals. The Blue Rider 19:48, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Oppose removals Interstellarity (talk) 20:40, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Mixed

Discussion

• Not too sure, Botswana and Namibia are more economically powerful. The Blue Rider 06:05, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

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Fix 'The Pupa' with 'Pupa'

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The Pupa page does not exist, this is supposed to refer to 'pupa'. HoleyFrijoles (talk) 21:24, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Dialysis (chemistry)  5

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VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Technology is at 44 articles over quota, so we've got to take action. The addition of this dialysis article could have been a mistake, perhaps the intended target was Kidney dialysis  5. Either way this should be removed. starship.paint (RUN) 09:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Interstellarity (talk) 00:37, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 20:11, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
4. Lorax (talk) 00:45, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
5. Idiosincrático (talk) 04:42, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

• If anyone were to click the "5" button, you'll see that this is listed under Medical technology. There's obviously been a mistake... starship.paint (RUN) 15:23, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
  • @Makkool: - this proposal was for remove, but you added it? starship.paint (talk / cont) 02:26, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
    • Mistake copying a sentence while closing this. It's removed. Makkool (talk) 15:42, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Midwestern United States, Southern United States, and Western United States

Other than my nomination of Northeast India above, there is no other country where we list the specific regions within the country. While I can understand the significance of the regions in some respects, listing individual states like Ohio (which is nominated above with a swap for BC, Canada), Georgia, North Carolina, and Michigan would be a better representation of the diversity of the United States. Interstellarity (talk) 23:15, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 23:15, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose Southern United States, neutral on the other two. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 01:31, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
2. We have subdivisions of a lot of countries, either formal or informal ones _pbp 15:25, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

May I also add Virginia is a better VA4 candidate than North Carolina...founded earlier (Jamestown), birthplace of lots of historic people (Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Wilson, Robert E. Lee), importance in the American Civil War, larger in population until very recently. _pbp 16:36, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, I might make a swap proposal at some point in the future. λ NegativeMP1 16:55, 8 August 2024 (UTC)