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Fighting game

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Archive: fighting game - February - April 2009

Hi everyone, myself and user:bridies have worked pretty hard on this article over the past several months (starting in early October 2008). The hope has been to bring this article to GA quality, let alone FA one day. Hopefully something on par, if not better, than the article on 4X. We're looking for feedback on all the major GA criteria, at this point.

  1. Keep an eye out for spelling and grammatical errors.
  2. How's the lead?
  3. Are there any major factual errors or omissions? Does this give a thorough overview of the genre?
  4. We were also worried if we went into too much detail at times. Could use another opinion here. But if you do, it would help to offer an example of the kind of thing we can afford to cut.
  5. If you have any suggestions for images, feel free to point us in the right direction.

Thanks in advance. We hope to close the peer review quickly and then move onto a GA nomination. Randomran (talk) 17:52, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What about adding a picture of a high-profile fighting game, like Street Fighter 2 or Mortal Kombat? GamerPro64 (talk) 18:06, 21 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I actually wanted to use a picture from Street Fighter 2, but couldn't find a good one. The best thing I could find was File:Street Fighter II comparison.PNG, but then I think I'd get in trouble on the fair use rationale because it's "excessive". We'd probably be safer if we could chop out just one screen, instead of three. Anyone have photoshop, and want to upload this stuff to Wikipedia? Randomran (talk) 23:35, 21 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
How about a picture that's a screenshot from the Super Smash Bros. series? GamerPro64 (talk) 00:04, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Also, maybe you should take out the picture of Mortal Kombat and get another showing a fatality. GamerPro64 (talk) 17:06, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The pictures in the article have come a long way... I think we're on the safe side of fair use right now, and any more images might start to invite legitimate concerns about copyright infringement. Randomran (talk) 03:07, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Guyinblack25

Always a pleasure to see such an important article get some real attention. Here are the issues I saw.

The lead
  • Why are "Fighting game" and "fighting game" both in bold? Generally, only alternate terms and spellings are bolded in the lead, not differences in case.
  • The first sentence sounds weird to me, though that may just be a difference in writing style. Either way, I don't really have any suggestions. :-\
  • Repetition of "In a fighting game". The first one is probably fine, though rewording wouldn't hurt. I'd definitely get rid of the second one because the first one already establishes that it's in the context of the genre.
  • Trim redundancy and add context.
    "In a fighting game, players control on-screen characters to face off against each other or against computer-controlled characters in close combat."
  • Same thing:
    In a fighting game, cCharacters tend to be of equal power and fight matches consisting of several rounds, that takinge place in some form ofan arena"
  • The first part of the second paragraph seems off to me. The first sentence is a run-on, and last part of it could be combined with the next sentence to trim and strengthen the section.
    "Heavyweight Champ (1976) was the first game to feature fist fighting and several, more evolved fighting games appeared throughout the 1980s, but t. The seminal Street Fighter II, (released by Capcom in 1991), was the progenitor of the genre's popularity, and. In the early to mid-1990s, subsequent to the release of Street Fighter II, the fighting game subsequently became was the pre-eminent genre for competitive video gaming in the early to mid-1990s."
    • "Several" here is kind of vague and doesn't seem like the best term to describe over a decade of releases. I'd get rid of it entirely.
    • It might be better to reword that first sentence to better convey that more and more games came out that added to the genre's complexity. Not sure what that would be though :-\
  • Tweak, just sounds better to me:
    "Fighting games were popularly played in arcades, where players could findplay against human opponents."
  • Maybe list another popular fighting series with MK, just for variety. Something that has been seen a similar amount of releases like King of Fighters or Tekken.
  • Tweak to improve flow and strengthen statement.
    "Towards the end of the 1990s, aArcades began to losinge their audience to increasingly powerful home consoles near the end of the 1990s."
    • A statement about how this effected the genre would give more context. Right now, a layman may not make this connection.
Definition
  • Maybe redundant, but since this is separate from the lead I'd give more context:
    "...where two, on-screen characters fight one-on-one."
  • This is a lengthy sentence that would benefit from being split.
    "These games typically feature special moves that are triggered by rapid sequences of carefully timed button presses and/or other inputs (such as joystick movements). andFighters are traditionally shown the fighters from a side-view, even as the genre has progressed from two-dimensional (2D) to 3Dthree-dimensional (3D) graphics."
    • "And/or" should generally be avoided in formal writing. "And" can mean that something is still an option in a list. It doesn't always have to mean the logical conjunction of both statements being true.
    • I would add in 2D to give more context to the "transition to 3D".
    • I would write out 2D and 3D to introduce the shortened terms. This will help give context to the less technically savvy.
  • The info about the weapons seems tacked on. Some info to transition the statement would improve the flow:
    "Fighting gGames typically involvinge unarmed combat, but games featuring one-on-one fighting using weapons rather than unarmed combat are also considered part of the genre."
  • More context:
    "This genre is distinct from beat 'em ups, another action genre involving combat, which are defined as..."
  • Who are "some" in "(though, to some, albeit obliquely)": critics, authors, journalists, etc? Some context would help here.
Game design
  • "Fighting games" and "They" will get very repetitive. Maybe mix in a few "The genre" and "It".
  • The first two sentences seem kind of redundant following the "Definition" section.
  • I think the statement about the foreground and back ground could be confusing to those that have never seen a system like that. Maybe some more details would help.
    "...although some games such as Fatal Fury: King of Fighters allow players to move between two parallel 2D planes (ainto the foreground or background)."
  • Trim redundancy and maybe give more context:
    "...different kinds of attacks and defenses maneuvers."
  • The sentence about learning effectiveness sounds weird to me, but I don't have any ideas how to improve it. :-\
  • The flow of the first paragraph seems off to me. I guess some extra info would help the sentences smoothly transition. Maybe a sentence to explain that in addition to offensive and defensive moves, moves can be classified as either basic or advanced moves. Some history could help give context too: many early fighting games only had basic moves and more advanced moves were added as technology progressed.
  • Minor grammar tweak:
    "...use of "special attacks" that employing complex..."
  • Unneeded comma:
    "...difficulty of execution, and the degree of risk."
  • Some more context would help:
    "...casual gamer, and require a player to have a combination of speed, timing, and a good memory."
    • Maybe switch out "speed" and "timing" for "fast reaction time".
  • An example of how taunting can be essential would help. Like increase damage, heal damage, distract, etc.
  • Excess use of "thus":
    "Thus, the main goal is to completely deplete the life bar of one's opponent, thus achieving a "knock-out".
  • This sentence starts out weird and can be confusing. Don't know if my suggestion is much of an improvement though:
    "Beginning with Midway's 1992's Mortal Kombat released in 1992, Midway's Mortal Kombatthe series introduced..."
  • Same "thus" as above:
    "...the fighting arena, thus awarding a "ring-out" to the victor."
  • Gaming jargon: "unlock" → "allow access"
  • It mentions how male characters are portrayed as hypersexualized, but there's nothing about how female characters generally wear revealing clothing and also have "extra-broad chests". Any sources on this?
  • Tweak/reword. Just sounds more professional to me:
    "...first fighting games that worked with this conceptto heavily integrate this concept."
  • The last paragraph in "Multiple characters and players" starts most of the sentences with "Games", Some games", etc. I'd switch some out for an alternative like "titles".
  • Trim and clarify:
    "Some games, such as ..., allow up to four players to compete at the same timesimultaneously."
    • Also, "some" doesn't give any definite number. Is there a better adjective to describe how many offer this: "a minority of games", "few games". Still ambiguous, but less so than "some".
  • I don't think the last sentence adequately conveys what you mean about lag. I'd tweak it some, though I'm not certain how.
    "...although the lag created by slow data transmission can be disruptive to the split-second timing involved in fighting games can make lag disruptive."
History- Early fighting games
  • Minor tweak:
    "The bBlack and white boxing game Heavyweight Champ..."
    • This sentence just sounds off to me without a "The" at the beginning. I don't think omitting "the" breaks an grammar rules though.
  • This start of this sentence sounds off to me, but like the one above may just be a difference of opinion.
    "TAnother two otherof the earliesty fighting games were..."
    • Also, the comma between the two titles is not needed.
      "...from 1984, and Konami's..."
  • It seems odd describing Yie Ar Kung Fu and not Karate Champs. Was Yie Ar Kung Fu a more influential title?
  • Switch from passive voice to active voice:
    "Capcom studied bBoth Karate Champ and Yie Ar Kung Fu were studied by Capcom..."
  • "Street Fighter is mentioned three times over three consecutive sentences. I'd switch the second one to another word like "the game" or "it".
  • Unneeded comma and excess use of "and":
    "...controls, creating a sense of mystique, and inviting players to learn and master the game."
    • It looks like the first comma is used to expand the idea of "experimenting with the game controls". A second comma would signal one of two things to the reader.
      1. That only the section between the commas expands the idea of experimenting. I assume the entire section after the first comma is meant to do this.
      2. That the sentence is a list of methods to discover special moves. (discovered by VERBONE-ing, VERBTWO-ing, and VERBTHREE-ing)
    • Mastering something implies learning it. Leaving it off should be fine and alleviate the need for a second comma to distinguish between the two "and"s.
  • Minor trim (are there any other kind of developers mentioned in this article?):
    "DGame developers had..."
History- Rise and peak
  • Image caption- I would change "Super Arts" to the more generic "special moves"; less terminology for the general reader.
  • The first paragraph comes across weird to me. Can't quite put my finger on it though. I think the first sentence is out of place. Maybe move and combine it with the other sentence about the game's success.
    • "One kKey reasons is that it took advantage offor the game's sucess are Capcom's CPS arcade chipset, whichallowing the development team to produceed graphically detailed characters and stages, and. Another reason for the game's success was that Yoshiki Okamoto's team developed the most accurate joystick and button scanning routine thus far."
    • I think grouping those two things together will improve the flow. The first one came across as more a reason for the game's success, and didn't really explain how the graphics furthered the genre.
    • Maybe wikilink routine to subroutine? Don't know if this is the intended meaning though.
  • I don't know if I'm over-thinking things, but the sentence about the number of buttons doesn't really strike me as "engaging and even brilliant". But I don't really have an alternative so feel free to ignore that.
  • The sentence about Fatal Fury sounds misplaced. The previous sentence talked about how others tried to copy SFII. It makes sense to follow that statement with examples of copies, but Fatal Fury couldn't copy it if came out before it. If it benefited from SFII's success, then maybe that could be used to connect the two ideas.
    • Also, a more definite time frame would be more informative:
      "...was released justa few months before Street Fighter II."
  • I'd switch this around to improve readability:
    "But the game was never released outside of Japan, because Sega felt that unrestrained 3D fighting games were just not fun, the game was never released outside of Japan."
    • An alternative could be to start the sentence differently and remove the unneeded comma:
      "But tThe game, however, was never released outside of Japan, because Sega felt that unrestrained 3D fighting games were just not fun.
    • I'd also switch out "just not fun" for "unenjoyable". Sounds more professional and writing in a positive tone (avoiding the word "not" that negates other words) makes the sentence simpler.
Tweak to have the verb forms agree and improve readability:
"...spawning a special Champion Edition withthat improved game balance and allowinged players to use the four final boss characters."
  • Clarification: "The first American developer to learn from the template..." means no other American developer tried to make a similar fighting game. If this is inaccurate, then maybe change "learn" to "benefit" or "successfully learn".
  • Minor detail for more context.
    "...digitized characters sprites..."
  • Sounds off to me:
    "Meanwhile, the 1993 title Mortal Kombat II from 1993captivated American audiences, and is considered to be the series' best in the series in retrospect."
    • Repetitive use of a single word like "in" can trip up a reader.
  • I also just noticed that SFII appears in the article as Street Fighter II and Street Fighter 2. Only one should be used to avoid confusion.
History- Relative decline
  • EGM should be italicized in the article as it is a magazine title.
  • "Finally" sound unprofessional here. I'd remove it:
    "Capcom finally released Street Fighter 3..."
    • Similar to above, Street Fighter III versus Street Fighter 3. Also, this instance should be italicized.
  • Minor grammer tweak:
    "...capabilities of the Sega Saturn..."
  • Clarification- "...but dwindling sales led Sega to discontinue the console." Was it the dwindling sales of the Virtua Fighter 3 console release or the dwindling sales of the system?
  • Unneeded detail:
    "...was considered one of SNK's last great games (as well as the Dreamcast's),..."
  • An extra "and" turn this into a run-on sentence:
    "An early example of this type of fighting game was Marvel vs. Capcom, released in arcades in 1998 and, featuring Street Fighter characters and comic book superheroes."
    • Replace that "and" with a comma turns the release date info into a quick little insert (similar to using parenthesis). By framing that section as something that can be taken out it is not a run-on.
    • You could also switch the "featuring" to "that features". Don't know if it's necessary though.
History- Recent history
  • I did some minor grammar tweaks last night. Here are the other issues that stood out to me.
  • This is something I think I noticed elsewhere in the article. "...with sequels appearing over the next few years."
    • I would change "over the next few years" to "in the subsequent years" or "in the following years". I think it sounds more professional and gives better context to the past events.
  • The lengthy descriptions for some of the titles (Tatsunoko vs. Capcom and Mortal Kombat vs. DC Universe) seem out of place in the parenthesis. I understand why it's like that, but I think the content is too lengthy to frame it like that.
  • Tweak for sentence flow:
    "The 2002 title Melty Blood (2002) was developed by then amateur developer French-Bread and achieved cult success on the PC."
    • This may or may not even be an issue, but the sentence sounds off to me without firmly establishing the time frame. Mainly because it talks about French-Bread's "then" amateur status.
  • Minor tweak- less wordy:
    "It was later highly popular in arcades afterfollowing its was2005 released in 2005..."
  • Two pronouns seems excessive and may be confusing:
    "While generally they are genre is far less popular than theyit once wereas..."

That's all I have time for right now. I'll try to do more later. (Guyinblack25 talk 21:39, 12 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]

I actually need to change my citation formatting to match up with the templates. I'll do that at some point. bridies (talk) 20:02, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There's the first section of history. The FF article is doing much better now and doesn't require as much immediate attention. I'll try to finish up the rest of this review sometime soon. (Guyinblack25 talk 16:11, 9 April 2009 (UTC))[reply]
Thanks a million. I tried to address those issues. As you look through the rest of the history, feel free to think about what an appropriate level of detail is for this genre. I'm nervous that it's the longest genre article yet. But it's also the largest genre with the longest successful history too, so I can't say I'm sure what to do. Randomran (talk) 01:32, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There's some more. Sorry the review has taken so long. I hope to finish it very soon. (Guyinblack25 talk 22:23, 23 April 2009 (UTC))[reply]
It will be worth the wait. I added your latest round of suggestions. Thanks a million. Let me know when you finish up. Randomran (talk) 06:48, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
All done- I'll give it a quick sweep this weekend too. Sorry for the lengthy hiatus, and I hope it didn't hold things up too much. (Guyinblack25 talk 15:06, 24 April 2009 (UTC))[reply]
Thanks a lot! Check back in one more time to let me know you're done-done. Also, I take it you think the level of detail is fine, and the article covers what it needs to? Randomran (talk) 19:45, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Did my final sweep and caught a few things here and there.

  • "...Fatal Fury: King of Fighters allow players to move into the foreground or background."
    • I still think clarifying with "move between two parallel 2D planes" would help the reader better visualize the description.
  • "Mortal Kombat promoted its home version release on September 13, 1993, aka Mortal Monday..."
    • Generally promotion is handled by people or a company.
  • The references are formatted with a mix of cite X templates and just regular formatting. Consistent usage of one or the other would be better.
  • Like in Rhythm game, the years in parenthesis mixed with years in prose can be confusing to switch back and forth from. I'd try to integrate something like (19XX) as much as possible. Something like "(released by Capcom in 1991)" can probably be kept though. It's more inline with how parenthesis are suppose to be used (to break the flow of a sentence to mention some important info that may not fit elsewhere).

Other than that, the article looks great. You two did an amazing job, and it's a good read from start to finish. (Guyinblack25 talk 19:29, 29 April 2009 (UTC))[reply]

Forgot one. (Guyinblack25 talk 19:36, 29 April 2009 (UTC))[reply]
Thanks a lot for all your hard work. This is a big one! Randomran (talk) 03:33, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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