Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Harry Crerar

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Gog the Mild (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 22:20, 3 October 2022 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

Harry Crerar

Instructions for nominators and reviewers

Nominator(s): Hawkeye7 (talk)

Continuing the series on the senior commanders of the 21st Army Group. Here is Canada's Harry Crerar Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:39, 8 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by CPA

There are MOS:SANDWICH issues here. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 22:05, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Y Moved pix around to avoid this. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:32, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Can you remove the first paragraph in the lead? It looks a bit awkard.
It is required (MOS:LEADSENTENCE) Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:00, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I wonder why the Awards in the infobox don't have any medal ribbon images of the medals he earned? I mean it looks odd that William D. Leahy has medal ribbon images in his Awards while Crerar does not? This also applies to Crerar's rank.
The ribbons were added to Leahy's article by Jmg38 (talk) on 4 July [1]; I don't normally use them. The rank and flag gets a bit tricky when applied to wartime Canada; the flag and rank badges are not the same as the ones used today. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:00, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Hi, CPA-5 and Hawkeye7. I would note that William D. Leahy is not an exact comparison. General Crerar's infobox is setup differently, not wrong, and is a fine example of a complete infobox military person, with terrific detail (I am impressed by the effective use of a Collapsible list on his long list of awards). I would point to Douglas MacArthur, itself a Featured article, as an example for a top overall general that does not include the ribbon images in the infobox. I have seen it done both with and without medal ribbons, but I note (and try to follow) that longer lists, like Crerar's and many other military people, generally do not have these. Again, just different, not wrong, between any large sample set of articles where infoboxes show medal ribbon images and a large sample set where the infoboxes go without. Jmg38 (talk) 23:12, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"three batteries of 18-pounders and one of the 4.5-inch howitzers" Convert to metric units?
Y I guess. Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:00, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"for employing the corps's Newton 6-inch mortars in a counter-mortar" Same as above.
Y Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:00, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"Crerar returned to Canada, where his CEF appointment" What's a CEF?
It's defined above in the first paragraph of "First World War" (Canadian Expeditionary Force)
"would build a good working relationship.[83][86][85]" Re-order the refs here.
Y Re-ordered. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:00, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"Tac HQ more than 5 miles (8.0 km) from Main HQ" Remove the nought here.
Y removed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:00, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"of the British Second Army, Lieutenant General Miles Dempsey had expressed doubts" Isn't it Lieutenant-General?
Y Yes. Corrected. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:00, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"The British government responded by appointing him a Companion of Honour on 3 July 1945.[112][113][111]" Re-order the refs here.
Y Re-ordered. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:00, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"and was mentioned in despatches four more times.[129][130][131][132]" Remove one citation here per WP:CITETRIM.
Four MIDs = four citations. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:00, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That's anything from me. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 12:20, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good to me. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 18:31, 10 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - pass

" "Story: Biography courtesy R.M.C. And links to his two brothers | Lives of the First World War"." - incomplete citation, formatting needs work
""Alastair John Crerar"." - unconvinced that this is RS and doesn't seem to mention part of what it's citing (the wounding)?

Beyond those two, which are a recent addition by a third party, I don't have much concerns over the sourcing. I spot-checked part of the citation to Granatstein 2020 and didn't issues. Hog Farm _Talk 02:48, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted both. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:36, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Harrias

Per MOS:CONTEXTLINK, remove the link from "General" in the first word of the article.
Y Never come across this one before. Removed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:40, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
And per MOS:NICKNAME, remove "Harry" from his name, as this is a common hypocorism.
Y Removed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:40, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"..which, although designated as the Canadian First Army, it contained.." Remove "it".
Y Deleted. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:40, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"Operation Veritable, the battle for the Rhineland in 1945 during which the First Canadian Army controlled nine British divisions, was his greatest battle." Define greatest here? If we mean biggest, it should be changed to that. If it means best or most significant, then that isn't something we can say using Wikipedia's editorial voice, as it is an opinion, and would need attribution.
Y The attribution would be in the body, but I have re-worded. (My normal practice is to use the article text before I expanded it as the lead, thereby preserving the work of other editors.) Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:40, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"Although largely unremembered today, J. L. Granatstein writes about Crerar.." I don't think we can use a quote from almost 30 years ago in the present tense.
Y Deleted the quote. Although there has been a lot of work in recent years by Canadian military historians, I doubt if it has made much impact on the average Canadian. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:40, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"..went into camp on the Salisbury Plain." No need for "the".
Y I'll defer to you on this one. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:40, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"..he left on furlough to England.." Wikilink furlough.
Y Linked. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:40, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"..where worked as a volunteer nurse at a hospital.." Missing a word.
Y Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:40, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"Crerar worked closely with his counterpart at Canadian Corps, British Major Alan Brooke.." I don't understand what you mean by "his counterpart" here. What role did Brooke have?
Y Brigade Major, Royal Artillery (BMRA). Re-worded to make this clearer, although it is more awkward I think. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:40, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"..aged just 19.." Remove "just", which is journalese and non-neutral language.
Y The minimum age at which you could be sent to the front was 19. so I think I had this in mind. Deleted. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:40, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
How is his brother's name spelt? When introducing his siblings, it is "Alastair", but later "Alistair John Crerar".
Y Typo. It is "Alistair". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:40, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"According to J. L. Granatstein, "the war intensified his already serious outlook on life."" It needs to be made clear this is referring to Harry, as the last subject mentioned was Alistair/Alastair.
Y Deleted. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:40, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"..for her surviving children (Matthew had died in the war)." Matthew? Malcolm?
Y Malcolm. Deleted. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:40, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"In January 1928, he became Professor of Tactics at the Royal Military College." Crerar or Simonds? I assume Crerar, but the last subject for "he" to refer to was Simonds.
Y Changed "he" to "Crerar". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:40, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"After the death of a newborn third child in May 1933.." For absolute clarity, consider "..the death of their newborn third child.."
Y Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:40, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"..was then at instructor at the college." The first "at" should be "an".
Y Corrected. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:40, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"..that he possessed an, "outstanding ability", an officer with, "all the attributes.." Add "and was" before "an officer".
Y Re-worded. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:40, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"..would mean dropping down major-general once more.." Missing "to" before "major-general".
Y Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:40, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"Crerar's handling of the I Canadian Corps during Exercise Spartan, a major training exercise which involved over 250,000 troops and over 72,000 vehicles, in March 1943,[60] and drew praise from McNaughton, General Sir Bernard Paget, the Commander-in-Chief, Home Forces, and Brooke, who was now a knight, a general and the Chief of the Imperial General Staff (CIGS)." For me, this sentence is trying to do far too much, resulting in too many commas and subordinate clauses. Can it either be split, simplified, or both?
Y Split sentence. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:40, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewed to end of Corps commander, more to follow. Harrias ^{(he/him) • talk} 21:00, 19 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Much of the first two paragraphs of Service in Italy seems more detailed than it needs to be in a biography of Crerar. It focusse more on the Canadian forces in Italy in general, and Simonds in particular, rather than Crerar. I think it could be shortened quite significantly.
The first paragraph explains his transfer to Italy; the second does talk about Simonds, but it focuses on the relationship between Simonds and Crerar, which is important later on. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:59, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"Mann was appointed the its chief of staff.." Remove a word.
Y Removed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:59, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
In fact, this whole list of people: "Mann was appointed the its chief of staff on 28 January 1944; Brigadier Alfred Ernest Walford was the Deputy Adjutant and Quartermaster General (DA&QMG), the chief administrative officer; and Colonel George Edwin (Ted) Beament, like Simonds a Kingston graduate who had served with Crerar in B Battery, was the colonel (general staff). Lieutenant-Colonel Peter Wright was GSO1 (Intelligence) and Lieutenant-Colonel C. Archibald the GSO1 (Operations). Brigadier A. T. MacLean was chief engineer, but was replaced by Brigadier Geoffrey Walsh in September." Is it really needed in a biography of Crerar?
These people all appear later on and ultimately they form his pall bearers. Says a bit about the make-up of First Canadian Army, and the way Crerar chose his staff. I decided to introduce them all together at this point rather than individually later on. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:59, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"This was disappointing, .." We need to say to who, otherwise it sounds like Wikipedia is expressing an opinion.
Y Crerar. Rewritten. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:59, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"..of the Great War." Change to either First World War or World War I.
Y Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:59, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"Crerar's finest hour" Attribute this quote inline.
Y Attributed inline. Another editor liked adding quotes from Granatstein but I removed several. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:59, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"..to be accorded this honour.[138] and was an.." Full-stop should be a comma, unless you want to split the sentences.
Y Changed full stop to comma. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:59, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That's all from me. A really interesting piece, as I've come to expect. I've quibbled about the level of details in a couple of places, but you generally get the balance right between giving enough context to understand his life with enough focus on him as a subject. Good work. Harrias ^{(he/him) • talk} 08:31, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support – just realised that I never formally put my support. Great work. Harrias ^{(he/him) • talk} 09:16, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Georgejdorner

Early years

No need to note Lillian's wedding to Adam Beck in para 1. Beck can be linked in para 3, when he is noted as a brother-in-law. Lillian is non-notable.

Was Marion Verschoyle Cronyn related to Lt. V. P. Cronyn, a pilot involved in the death of Werner Voss? (This is a curiosity question. It has no bearing on the review.)

Lieutenant Verschoyle Phillip Cronyn and Marion Verschoyle Cronyn were first cousins. He was the son of Hume Cronyn (politician) and she was the daughter of Benjamin Barton Cronyn. Both were therefore grandchildren of Verschoyle Cronyn (1833-1920). Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:46, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

- Thanks for scratching my curiosity itch.Georgejdorner (talk) 22:44, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

First World War

Para 1: Are the battery manning levels actual bodies in ranks, or just theoretical?

Tables of Organisation and Equipment. Would have been close to right in 1914. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:54, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

How about a comment about ranks being filled to manning levels, and then giving the manning levels?Georgejdorner (talk) 02:53, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Para 2: I doubt that anyone refers to 110mm howitzers and 8.2kg guns. Do these conversions make sense?

None whatsover. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:54, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Then why include meaningless conversions? Indeed, why not name the guns, as in [dreadnought 110mm gun], or whatever?Georgejdorner (talk) 02:53, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Because it came up once before, with people demanding meaningless conversions. I've removed them, and we'll see how it goes. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:30, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Well, if they do it this time, I'll tell them they are full of prunes.Georgejdorner (talk) 22:59, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Para 3: Reporting his bride by nickname is reminiscent of his adopting a pet. Here's where Lillian's name should be used.

In any formal situation, she would have been Mrs Harry Crerar. Otherwise, she was always called Verse. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:54, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If Ms Crerar is best known as Verse, in the sense Wop May is not denoted by his formal name, then I can see using her nickname. However, to keep from seeming misogynistic, there should be some explanatory phrase such as, '...best known as..."

Sure. Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:31, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Para 4: Shouldn't Mentions in Despatches be listed in the info box?

Yes. Added.Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:54, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Corps Commander

Last para: Dieppe casualties total 5,313 for 5,000 Canadians involved. Even if every Canadian became a casualty, the numbers do not match. Para 7: Shouldn't his brothers be mentioned in the info box?

Only if they were notable (ie have their own articles)

Fair enough.Georgejdorner (talk) 02:53, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

On second thought, should the brother-in-law be listed?Georgejdorner (talk) 00:48, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Listed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:37, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Between the Wars

Last para: Again, I question the use of the nickname Verse for Lillian.

I have re-checked the sources, and they all use this name. It seems that she was always known as Verse. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:18, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

See above,Georgejdorner (talk) 02:53, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think it reasonable to posit that if the form of her name is the same as it would be if she was notable enough for her own article, it's OK.Georgejdorner (talk) 00:53, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hey George and Hawkeye How's the progress going on? Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 13:33, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Canadian Military HQs, etc. Para 2: The significance of the Statute of Westminster and Visiting Forces Act is not clear.Georgejdorner (talk) 23:06, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Added some more explanation. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:37, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That clarifies matters nicely.Georgejdorner (talk) 01:24, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Para 4: Second sentence so convoluted I do not understand it. How about a rewrite? Maybe into two or three sentences?Georgejdorner (talk) 01:01, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Rewritten. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:37, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Nicely done.Georgejdorner (talk) 01:24, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Last para: Why was the Battle of Hong Kong disastrous?Georgejdorner (talk) 01:01, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is explained. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:37, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Need a break.Georgejdorner (talk) 01:19, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have read and reread the remainder of the article. Amazingly, I can find no additional faults. Probably because I was the latest reviewer.Georgejdorner (talk) 01:15, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Overall: The only unresolved item is the actual casualties suffered at Dieppe.Georgejdorner (talk) 01:29, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've double-checked the figures and they are correct. I think the confusion may result from double-counting; accordingly, I resisted the urge to simplify, and expanded this bit, although it's drifting off-topic a bit, because others may be puzzled. Added a more comprehensive source while I was at it. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:42, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You might sharpen up that these casualty categories overlap, resulting in unintended overcounts. The new figures are appreciated.Georgejdorner (talk) 21:05, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Image check: pass

Infobox image needs a US tag
Y Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 10:49, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think the monument image needs a FoP template for the sculpture
Y Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 10:49, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
File:British-p011074.jpg: I haven't been able to verify the statement made by the uploader that the source website (it looks dead) states "all rights released" in respect of the image.
It is on archive at [2]
File:Farewell Sign Holland 1945.jpg: Not clear to me how the uploader can be the copyright holder and have the authority to release it when the photograph was taken by a Canadian soldier.
It appears that his son is the uploader. See User contributions for Rfwatkins Hawkeye7 (discuss) 10:49, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
File:CrerarReturnsToOttawa1945.jpg needs a US tag
Y Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 10:49, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Overall, I think this is well and appropriately illustrated. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 09:31, 15 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Passing for image check. Zawed (talk) 08:03, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.