Jump to content

Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Boot Monument

Add links
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Donner60 (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 05:20, 13 September 2024 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

Boot Monument

[edit]

Instructions for nominators and reviewers

Nominator(s): Relativity (talk)

Boot Monument (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Toolbox

If you travel to Saratoga National Historic Park, you will probably come across this somewhat bizarre monument of a boot. Its honoree's name is never mentioned on it, and it would take some research to figure out that it's actually honoring Benedict Arnold. I am nominating this for A-class because I'd like to take this to FA and so I would need to see what further improvements need to be made to it to get it there. Thank you! ‍Relativity ⚡️ 00:47, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hawkeye

[edit]

This is all way outside my area of expertise. I presume that Benedict Arnold was rehabilitated long ago. Article looks more like a GA than an FA. Some comments:

  • Can be have a consistent date format? Three different ones are used. (Recommend using dmy and adding a {{use dmy dates}} template.)
    •  Done
  • "Arnold's betrayal to the British" implies that someone betrayed him.
    • Changed to "Arnold betrayed the Continental Army for the British Army"
  • Do we know what Arnold's actual, rank was? (Same for Clinton, Gates and Lincoln)
    • Yes, and  Done
  • Is there any reason why the town of West Point was worth twenty thousand quid?
    • According to Nathaniel Philbrick's Valiant Ambition, the Hudson River was a large and strategically important river. The fortifications at West Point were on an "S" bend at the river and whoever controlled West Point essentially controlled the Hudson River itself. Since capturing the Hudson River would mean a huge military success to the British if they could capture it, which meant capturing West Point, that meant it was worth a lot of money. Should I add that to the article, or something shorter, such as "for the capture of West Point, a fortification that was important to the control of the Hudson River"?
      The short version would be fine. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:07, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The lead says he "attempted to give crucial information about the fortification of West Point to the British" but the body says "offering Arnold £20,000 for the capture of West Point. Arnold met with British Major John André, who Arnold had solicited communication through, and André was later captured on his way back to New York with the plans for West Point being discovered"
    • Good catch, reworded in the lead to "He later attempted to help the British capture the fortification of West Point but was discovered and fled to the British army."
  • "solicited communication through" sounds awkward to me.
    • Reworded to "Arnold met with British Major John André so he could pass on information on how to best attack West Point,". Let me know what you think.
  • "College boys on a trip stole the toe and spur from the Boot Monument,[21][22] and they were only discovered when an anonymous informer informed the battlefield official that the toe was stolen by "a graduate of a New York State educational institution."[23] The monument underwent restoration after Adolph S. Ochs, publisher of The New York Times, financed it." Do we have dates for these events?
    • Unfortunately no. All of the newspapers used as citations are from around the same time but there is no actual specified date when this happened.
  • "The monument is made of white marble[2][43] and is four feet tall." Source required for the height. And add a conversion for those of us living in the twenty-first century instead of the eighteenth.
Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:55, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Hawkeye7: Thanks for the review and your time! I addressed most of your concerns, although I have one question about your fourth point. ‍Relativity ⚡️ 21:19, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good to me. Support. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:07, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Matarisvan

[edit]

Hi Relativity, some comments:

  • Provide a link or identifier for "The Shrine of the Memorial Museum"? If you received it via resource request, specify that in a hidden note?
  • That source was there before I started extensively editing this article. I tried to find it, but couldn't. Since there's another source there, I've removed it.
  • Here is a link for Leopold 1994: [1]. Consider adding?
  • plus Added, thanks for finding that. Hopefully, I've done it correctly.
  • Link to Lawrence Journal-World, The Lewiston Daily Sun and Boca Raton News as done for the other newspapers? Also I guess Ration is a typo, should be Raton?
  •  Done, and yes, that was a typo. I fixed that as well.
  • Provide a link for Duffus 1930 and MacIvor 1954?
  • For the MacIvor one, I found it off of the Wikipedia Library, and can't seem to find a way to add a link to it other than having a link go directly to the Wikipedia Library. Here's the permalink: [2]. I added an ISSN though for it. As for Duffus' source, I found the link, but there's an error page saying that there are technical difficulties with it showing up. I've added it for now, and I'll see if I can do anything else about that.
  • Link to Social Forces, McFarland, The New England Quarterly, University Press of New England, NYU Press, Regnery Publishing, The Journal of the Gilded Age and Progressive Era, Casemate Publishers? You've already linked to Random House so to be consistent you will have to link everywhere else. Otherwise you could consider removing the links for publishers altogether.
  • Add a date for Brumwell? The website provides one.
  •  Done
  • What is your policy on linking to authors? I can understand if you do not wish to in order to avoid SEAOFBLUE. If you do wish to, however, consider linking to Alexis Coe, Gary Alan Fine, Donald W. Linebaugh, Richard M. Ketchum, James Kirby Martin, Dave Richard Palmer, Nathaniel Philbrick, Willard Sterne Randall?
  •  Done Not a huge fan of the SEAOFBLUE, but I think that it's better this way.
  • To be consistent, you will have to decide to include the locations of publication or not. For most sources you have them, but for some you don't.
  •  Done

That's all from me, cheers Matarisvan (talk) 05:29, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Matarisvan: Thanks so much for the review. I think that I've addressed all of your concerns above. Cheers ‍Relativity ⚡️ 21:09, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Gog the Mild: I've addressed both reviews above. ‍Relativity ⚡️ 21:21, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Relativity, you should consider changing the references from ref tags to sfn tags, because that will be required at FAC. Also you should add the Wikipedia Library link for MacIvor 1954 which you have. Matarisvan (talk) 05:06, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Matarisvan: Both  Done ‍Relativity ⚡️ 19:08, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Happy to support for promotion to A Class. Matarisvan (talk) 01:14, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Gog the Mild

[edit]

Saving a place. Could you ping me once the review above has ended. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:11, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Gog the Mild: First off, thank you for taking the time to review this article. Just so you're aware, I am going to be unable to be active on Wikipedia for about two months, give or take a week or two, so if you add any comments starting tomorrow, it is very unlikely that I will be able to address them. My apologies for the inconvenience. Cheers ‍Rela[[User talk:The monument is made of white marble[2][43] and is 4 feet (1.2 m) tall.[44]tivity ⚡️]] 04:02, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
Oh, and I hope that the Scottish Highlands were nice! ‍Relativity ⚡️ 04:03, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Highlands were good, thanks. I hit a narrow weather window just right. If you are going to be off-Wiki for more than a couple of weeks it seems - donning my FAC coordinator hat - that this nomination is certain to be archived. It may be best to withdraw this nomination and renominate once you have the time to allocate to it. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:26, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thinking further, at ACR time is not that important. So I shall comment when I can and you respond when you can. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:42, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. I might be able to come here occasionally to respond to any comments. ‍Relativity ⚡️ 20:37, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "betrayed the Continental Army for the British Army." I think that needs to be either '... betrayed ... to ...' or '... deserted ... for ...'
  • "Arnold continued to grow more bitter towards". This has not previously been mentioned, so he can't continue to do it. Perhaps 'Arnold grew ever more bitter ...'?
  •  Done added "ever"
  • "had contributed to both Battles of Saratoga". Perhaps a link?
  •  Done
  • "Battle of Bemis Heights". Likewise.
  •  Done
  • "even after hostilities between him". Perhaps "hostilities" → 'disagreements'?
  •  Done
  • "and a court martial after being convicted of two minor charges of using his role as military commander of Philadelphia to make a profit." This reads that the court martial took place after his conviction on the minor charges. Is that correct?
  • Oops, that's not. Changed to "and a court martial which resulted in him being convicted of two minor charges of using his role as military commander of Philadelphia to make a profit"
  • "The toe of the Boot Monument was stolen by college boys on a trip". Is it known when?
  • Unfortunately no. All of the sources that were used in that little section date from 1927-1931, but a specific date is never mentioned.
  • "The monument underwent restoration". Again, when?
  • See above
  • "but he did regain his seniority." I doubt if many readers will understand this. Could it be rephrased a little more accessibly?
  • Reworded to "but he became more senior than the other officers that had been promoted before him.", hope that's okay.
  • "The monument is made of white marble and is 4 feet (1.2 m) tall." I suggest that this be moved to be the first sentence of the first paragraph of this section.
  •  Done

@Relativity: that's it from me.

Gog the Mild (talk) 20:44, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Gog the Mild: I think I've addressed all your concerns above. ‍Relativity ⚡️ 19:47, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All looks good. That just leaves "betrayed the Continental Army for the British Army." I think that needs to be either '... betrayed ... to ...' or '... deserted ... for ...' to be addressed. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:00, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relativity ? Gog the Mild (talk) 16:21, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Gog the Mild: Sorry for the wait; I've been really busy lately. I've fixed that. Thank you for taking the time to review this! ‍Relativity ⚡️ 01:09, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - pass

[edit]

Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:58, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can you confirmed the image review as passed. Otherwise, this appears ready for promotion. Thanks. Donner60 (talk) 01:28, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Tagging @Hawkeye7 for comments on whether the image review is a pass, who may not have noticed the comment above asking for confirmation. Matarisvan (talk) 19:20, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Passed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:42, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Tagging @Donner60, who may not have seen this, so that this assessment can be closed. Matarisvan (talk) 16:44, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - pass

[edit]

Hi Relativity, my comments. #17, #24, #26, #40, #41: all ok. Seems like the source review is a pass, now you need just one more support for promotion to A class. Also, I would really appreciate it if you could post your comments at a PR I just opened up, linked here. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 12:07, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Matarisvan: Thanks for the source review! I'll definitely check out the PR when I can, although I'm still out and about so it might take a week or so before I can add any comments. ‍Relativity ⚡️ 06:54, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]


Support by Pendright

[edit]

Start soon - Pendright (talk) 02:48, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

  • Erected in 1887 by John Watts de Peyster, it commemorates Major General Benedict Arnold's service at the Battles of Saratoga in the Continental Army, but does not mention him on the monument because Arnold later betrayed the Continental Army for the British Army.
  • Change Erected in to Erected during
  •  Done and also fixed that in the History section
  • Add while between Saratoga & in
  •  Done
  • Since the monument was sculptured before it was erected, why doesn't Bissell get equal billing with de Peyster? (de Peyster begins the paragraph and Bissell ends the paragraph)
  • I put Bissell at the end of the paragraph because a lot of the sources I cited never mentioned him, just the monument and De Peyster. Should I move Bissell to an earlier portion of the paragraph?
<>As the story teller, how important do you feel his contributulion was or is to the monument itself. Your call! Pendright (talk) 17:34, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Arnold continued to grow ever more bitter towards the Continental Army when he was passed over for promotion, lost his business, and was court-martialed for abusing his power as military commander of Philadelphia.
and he was court-martialed...
  •  Done

Background

  • American Major General Benedict Arnold had contributed to both Battles of Saratoga, although the extent of his contributions to the first battle, the Battle of Freeman's Farm, are disputed.[4][5]
Could you briefly share with readers the nature of the dispute(s)?
  • Added efn note, hope that's okay.
  • Gates did not make much mention of Arnold's contributions in his report of the aftermath of the battle,[10] which contributed to Arnold's bitterness, along with his combat wounds, business troubles, Congress having promoted some rival and younger generals ahead of him, and a court martial after being convicted of two minor charges of using his role as military commander of Philadelphia to make a profit.[11]
  • This sentence contains about 65 words -> consider breaking it up
  • I split the first part of that sentence from the rest
  • Add a hyphen to court martial
  •  Done
  • This, along with the fact that his wife, Peggy Shippen, came from a family of Loyalists, caused Arnold to start making communications with the British army, with Sir Henry Clinton finally offering Arnold £20,000 for the capture of West Point,[12] a fortification that was important to the control of the Hudson River.[13]
  • Drop the comma afterThis
  •  Done
  • Replace comma (,) with with a semiclon
  •  Not done Where?
<>May I ask why? Pendright (talk) 17:55, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
<>Withdraw comment and question - Pendright (talk) 16:18, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • £20,000 -> what was the equivalent in continental currency?
  • I tried to find out, but couldn't unfortunately.
  • Arnold fled to the British army, and remained as a general there until the war ended.[14][15]
  • Drop the comma after army or add he between and remained
  •  Done
  • Arnold fled to the British army, -> where?
  •  Done

History

  • John Watts de Peyster, a former major general for the New York State Militia during the American Civil War,[16] writer of several military histories about the Battle of Saratoga, and a vice president of the SMA,[2] wanted to commemorate Arnold's contribution to the Continental Army's victory over the British[1] and was unsatisfied with the Saratoga Battle Monument, where the niche where a statue of Arnold should have gone would remain empty.[17]
  • A 71 word sentence -> consider breaking it up
  •  Done
  • of the New York State Militia
  •  Done
  • a writer of...
  •  Done
  • Reaibility of the last clause? If it is essential to the meaning of the sentence then delete the comma before the frst where
  •  Done Deleted comma
  • De Peyster considered Arnold a traitor, but still recognized his contributions at Saratoga.
Drop the comma after traitor or add he between but & still
  •  Done rm comma
  • He wanted to "honor some of Arnold's deeds without honoring the man"[1] but thought that simply a slab of granite to commemorate Arnold "would not do."[2]
If the above is meant as " " marks then it will need attribution. If it is meant as emphasis it will look like so.
  •  Done It is intended as quotation marks (" ") so I added in-text attribution.
  • He commissioned George Edwin Bissell,[2][3] who had designed other statues that Peyster had erected,[1] to sculpt a marker in white marble.[2]
Should it be de Peyster?
  • Yes, thank you  Done
  • The toe of the Boot Monument was stolen by college boys on a trip[21][22] and they were only discovered when an anonymous informer (described as "a graduate of a New York State educational institution") told the battlefield official that the toe was stolen.[23]
on a trip -> This term has more than a single meanings - what does it mean here?
  • An outing, excursion, or visit. Changed to "visit"
  • The monument was originally located at the top of the hill at the Breymann Redoubt site, but was later moved after further research as to where Arnold injured his leg, which was the more southern end of the main redoubt line.[26]
Add it between but & was
  •  Done
  • The time at which this happened is disputed with some sources saying 1975,[3][27] while others say 1972.
Drop the comma after while
  • I presume you meant the comma after 1975, so I dropped the comma there.
<>Yes, my apology! Pendright (talk) 18:02, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • However, the monument was still at the Breymann Redoubt before the time of its move, and is still at the southern end of the redoubt.[1][28][29]
Drop the comma after move or add it between and & is
  •  Done Dropped comma

Appearance

  • It features a howitzer barrel, with a left-footed horseman's riding boot[4][33][34] and a two-star epaulette for a major general on top of the barrel.[36][37]
Drop the comma after barrel
  •  Done
  • One error in the inscription was that Arnold did not earn the rank of Major General after, and because of, Saratoga, but he became more senior than the other officers that had been promoted before him.[1]
  • was that or is that?
  • "is" that, fixed

This is it for now, except to say: The article, in my view, is unique in American history and it's interesting and well done. It strikes me; however, that while the monument and Arnold would not seem severable, there is little in the article itself telling readers the most basic things about him. Pendright (talk) 22:58, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Pendright: I think I've addressed all your concerns above. Thank you for taking the time to add your comments! If I dedicate too much to Benedict Arnold in the article, it'll go WP:OFFTOPIC and if anyone wants to know more about Arnold, they can read his article. Thank you again ‍Relativity ⚡️ 18:59, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Relativity: I hope you'll reconsider. In any case, I've left you some responses to yours. Pendright (talk) 19:35, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Supporting - Pendright (talk) 16:18, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Pendright: Thank you for taking the time to review this article! As for the comment about £20,000 in continental currency, I'll try to find out when I get enough time to do so since I haven't had much time to dedicate to Wikipedia lately. ‍Relativity ⚡️ 01:11, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Relativity: Good luck! Pendright (talk) 03:36, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history/Assessment/Boot_Monument&oldid=1245469525"