Wikipedia:WikiProject Figure Skating/Assessment/Yuna Kim

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Yuna Kim

Instructions for nominators and reviewers

Nominator(s): Figureskatingfan (talk)

Yuna Kim (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

I am nominating this article for A-Class review because the subject is important to figure skating and because I think it's ready to go through the very first A-Class review in the Figure Skating WikiProject. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:01, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Everyone, I would like to close this nomination, since no reviewers have touched it for several months. Perhaps we can try again later. Someone else will have to archive the closed nomination. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 19:09, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Comments by Henni147

Review part I (May 2024)

I'm happy to join this A-class review from Sunday onward. First notes: The table templates for world records, programs, and competitive highlights look good already. I will take a closer look at the infobox and detailed results section later. The external links section needs some brush-up, both the list of weblinks and navigation boxes. I will list the most important issues later. Kim's webpage is broken and a brief goggle yields nothing, so I removed it. Does anyone know if she still has a webpage at a different URL? I also removed some of the older/archived and redundant items. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:41, 23 May 2024 (UTC) I don't believe she has a website anymore, no. Artemisia (talk) 21:19, 24 May 2024 (UTC) My focus in this review will be on: the adaptation of the revamped Wiki figure skating style and terminology guide linking and text/image formatting sourcing and formatting of the references/inline citations copyright and license check (incl. images) I will also take a look at the content and writing, but I recommend to have another reviewer with deeper knowledge about Yuna's career as well as a copy-editor for articles written in British English (as English is only my third language and I am more familiar with American English). Henni147 (talk) 17:24, 15 May 2024 (UTC) Quick update: I want to finish the revamp of our project page and the assessment guidelines first before starting this review, so it may take another day. I hope that is okay. Henni147 (talk) 14:29, 19 May 2024 (UTC) Review start: Finally, I got the time to start my A-class review! First of all, I want to express my appreciation for your fantastic work! I crossread the article, and it is some really fine work. I decided to tackle the structure issue first because that may come with the most work to fix: Yuna Kim Figure skating career Competitive 2001–2014 Professional 2014–2019 Retired 8 June 2019 Important note on "retirement": As per WP:FS TERM, the term "retirement" should only be used for skaters who officially retired from both competitive and professional figure skating, and are no longer performing at skating events at all. If my information is correct, Kim's last skating performance was at the 2019 All That Skate, so the correct infobox entry should look as shown on the right. Please make sure to follow this terminology convention in the lead section and prose part of the article as well. I respectfully have to disagree with this. Kim has never stated that she has retired from professional skating; we should not use a retirement date we cannot verify. It's quite possible she could continue to participate in shows in the future. All of the sources state that she retired from competitive skating in 2014 – I believe that we should follow their lead. Artemisia (talk) 15:03, 21 May 2024 (UTC) I agree with Artemisia; there are no sources that support the assertion that Kim is done with professional skating. I'll keep the date open for now. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:17, 24 May 2024 (UTC) Section headings: Change "Competitive career" to "Competitive skating career" and "Show skating career" to "Professional skating career". Make sure that the "Competitive skating career" only covers events from the first skating competition onward, starting in 2001, and move everything else into the "Early life" section, which should focus on the skater's family background and how the skater got into figure skating. We actually discussed renaming the show skating career section previously. The issue is that she began participating in shows while she was still an amateur. But if you think a different name would be more fitting, I'm open to changing it. Artemisia (talk) 15:24, 21 May 2024 (UTC) That often happens now: ever since the rules have become more lax about amateur/professional status, skaters (and other athletes) have started their professional careers while still competing internationally. I agree with the heading changes, so done. I'm also done with the restructuring you suggested.Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:17, 24 May 2024 (UTC) Turn the "Coaches" section into a sub-section of the "Competitive skating career" or merge its content into the prose (recommended). The prose part of the article should not be disrupted by a statistics section that only contains a bulleted list. Moved "Coaches" section to the end of the "Competitive skating career". I disagree about changing the bulleted list into prose because the content is already in other sections and because it'd be boring to present it that way. Is there a policy that states your assertion about bulleted lists? To be honest, the only reason the list exists is because it was already there when I began working on it, although I added the refs. I'd be okay with removing it, since the info is redundant. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:17, 24 May 2024 (UTC) Merge the sections "Skating technique and training" and "Artistry" to "Skating technique and style". Note: NEVER use the term "artistry" or derivatives anywhere when talking about figure skating, with exception of crucial direct quotes, particularly because it is one of the most abused terms by figure skating media. Note that the ISU has never used it in any of their official documents themselves. Make sure to clearly break down and describe the skater's skills with the technically correct terms: (1) carriage and dancing skills, (2) choreography and composition skills, (3) skills in (technical) music interpretation (timing, rhythm, pitch changes ...), (4) projection, narration, and acting skills. This would also affect spinoff article Impact of Yuna Kim. @Figureskatingfan, what are your thoughts on this? Artemisia (talk) 15:51, 21 May 2024 (UTC) Done moving sections; main articles templates also changed. What you're saying about the term "artistry" is a valid point, one I've never thought of before. Ya learn something new everyday, right? Artemisia is right; making the changes you're suggesting regarding the technical terms. That's something to tackle later on, though, when we focus on those spinoffs. For now, we should leave the titles and content of those articles alone and leave the main article templates as is. I've changed every instance of the word "artistry" in a non-direct quote throughout the article. This point brings up another issue for me: when the sources don't analyze skating in those terms, isn't it OR to impose them in WP bios? I mean, we can do as much as we can when we paraphrase, but I think only to a point because it can easily delve into placing our opinions into articles. What do you think about that? Ah, something else to potentially add to the project MOS. ;) Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:17, 24 May 2024 (UTC) @Artemisialufkin @Artemisialufkin @Henni147 I'm rather late to the discussion (hadn't realized it had already begun). My comment is solely in regard to Impact of Yuna Kim. I have no problem with the term "Artistry" there. It is not the main article of Figure Skater Yuna Kim. In general, it makes perfect sense when we're talking about the impact of an athlete and their collaboration with a choreographer to be using the term "artistry". It's a term that's indeed used by media, has made its way to common parlance with the figure skating fandom, and for a cultural icon like, she's indeed contributed to Korean culture and arts, that has been discussed in at least one of the articles. Which reminds me, there was an exhibit where a major artist had painted one of her performances. I need to go find it and add that to the relevant article. Editor120918756 (talk) 09:19, 29 May 2024 (UTC) @Editor120918756, @Artemisialufkin The discussion about the term "artistry" in figure skating is interesting, but I don't think that it's something we can (and should) resolve here. Since the sources we're using in this bio uses the term, we should also use it here, regardless of our individual preferences. Ed, remember that we can't use a painting if it isn't free. I'd like to see it, though. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:39, 4 June 2024 (UTC) I recommend to bundle the three sections "Impact on figure skating", "Olympic ambassador", and "Media image and impact" as follows: Main section title "Legacy and impact" with the sub-sections: (.1) "Impact on figure skating", (.2) "Olympic ambassadorship", (.3) "Media image and impact". Done. Artemisia (talk) 15:41, 21 May 2024 (UTC) I recommend to turn "Personal life" into "Personal life and education" and move the related content from the "Early life" section here. This helps to have a better chronology of events at the beginning of the article and to better distinguish between public and private activities. Done. Artemisia (talk) 15:13, 21 May 2024 (UTC) Detailed results: During the FLC review of Hanyu's career achievements, we were instructed to remove all tables with results prior to the first international junior season. In this case, remove all domestic results in the 6.0 System. Done. Artemisia (talk) 14:51, 21 May 2024 (UTC) These are my first main perceptions. I will take a more detailed look on the other aspects tomorrow. Henni147 (talk) 20:16, 20 May 2024 (UTC) @Artemisialufkin: Thank you very much for the quick changes! I will go through them later one-by-one. Here are some more comments on the article structure: Yes, thanks so much! I appreciate it, since my schedule this week prevented me from addressing this review before today. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:17, 24 May 2024 (UTC) Table of contents: To keep the TOC at reasonable length, I recommend to add {{TOC limit|3}} after the lead section. I also suggest to skip some of the sub-headings if possible, especially in sections with only one sub-heading (it makes little sense in numeration to have 6.1 when there is no 6.2). You may take a look at the TOC of Hanyu's biography as an example. I've implemented the template. Artemisia (talk) 14:32, 22 May 2024 (UTC) Show skating career: I agree that this title may fit better in this special case, indeed. The reason why I suggested to use the division "(1) Early life (2) Competitive skating career (3) Professional skating career" is that there is no overlapping but clean transitions from one section to the next, avoiding time jumps and keeping the life/career summary in chronological order. But yes, it might be laborous to merge all the ice show-related content into the competitive skating career section. I don't mind to keep it like this for the time being. Detailed results: Since Yuna has never competed in the +5/-5 GOE System, you can skip that information from the section headings; "Senior level" and "Junior level" should be sufficient. On Hanyu's featured career achievements page, we also used "Junior level" only. Done. Artemisia (talk) 14:32, 22 May 2024 (UTC) That's it for today. I will tackle the other points of the review tomorrow afternoon. Henni147 (talk) 17:38, 21 May 2024 (UTC) Yuna Kim Figure skating career Competitive 2001–2014 Professional 2014–present Response to the "retirement" issue: If Kim has not officially announced her retirement from professional skating yet, we should skip the term "retirement" entirely from her article for the time being and use the format on the right for the infobox. Figure skating journalists labelling professional skaters as "retired" has been a very harmful practice for decades. Pro skaters have a hard time marketing their works because many people misinterpret "retirement" as complete retirement from figure skating and longer follow their careers by mistake. Since Wikipedia is one of the first websites that most people use for quick information about a public person, it is our responsibility to work in favor of the skaters and not make their lives harder. This may not be a big issue in the case of Kim, but we should be consistent in our practice. Note: I finally completed the work on our project page, so I will be able to fully tackle this A-class review from tomorrow onward. Henni147 (talk) 19:57, 23 May 2024 (UTC) Ah, I didn't see this until just now, after my comments and changes about retirement above. I like this idea; changed now. Again, good points; of course, this is one of the attempts to keep the sport elitist and Western, but that's a whole other issue. This attempt in sports in general is something that's in opposition to the values of Wikipedia, something I personally believe we should support as we write about skaters. We've already done that with the proposal change in referring to female skaters as "women" rather than "ladies", years before the sport made the change. Another way is putting up Kim's bio as our project's first A-class assessment. Ah, but I go off-topic. Take your time with continuing the review; I have other things to tackle, too. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:25, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

First of all, I apologize for the long delay with this review. I had a very tough time with many hardships in my family, so I was forced to take a break from Wiki and other commitments.
I continue this review with the prose parts and use of images. The most important issues that need to be fixed are highlighted in red. Especially the comments in red boxes are must-do tasks that are mandatory for the promotion to A-class. Same goes for a brush-up of the lead section to the highest quality standard (FA-class), since it is the most-read part of the article together with the infobox. Comments in red and grey boxes should be checked for the full article. I can only give my support for A-class if the lead improvement and red tasks are fully completed.

Review part II: Lead section

Note: I've implemented most of the changes in the rewritten lead below, with minor differences, which I've described after each suggestion.

• FS terminology note: "is a South Korean retired competitive figure skater". Stressing "competitive" here gives the wrong impression that Yuna was not a professional figure skater. You either say "competitive and professional" or skip both.

As we've discussed before, the words "competitive" and "professional" are both unclear and misleading. Consequently, I think we should remove both. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:27, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Agree with skipping "competitive" here. That was my preferred change as well. Henni147 (talk) 15:20, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

• Link two-time [[World Figure Skating Championships|World]] champion in the first paragraph.
• I suggest to bundle consecutive years to time spans, especially "2003–2006" for the national championship titles to keep the content in parentheses more compact.
• I suggest to place the sentence about the non-podium finishes at the top of the second paragraph, since it's also about competition placements, resulting in a more logical order of information. Also de-link "podium", which is a commonly known term.
• "Kim is the first South Korean figure skater to medal at the [[Figure skating at the Olympic Games|Olympic Games]], World Championships, [[ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating]], and [[ISU Junior Grand Prix]]." In the case of records and firsts, it makes more sense to sort the competitions by notability, not in chronological order. Also de-link "World Figure Skating Championships" and shorten it to "World Championships", which is fully sufficient here.
• "first skater ever": remove "ever" to make the wording more neutral and professional in style.

Also removed the word "also". Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:27, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

• If you use the term "Super Slam", then also use and link "Golden Slam" for winning all major intl. senior competitions. Do not list up all competitions one-by-one here, it makes the paragraph very repetitive in wording.

I have to disagree with this. The term "Golden Slam" is original research. It's not used by any of the sources in the article, and in general, I've never seen it used outside of Wikipedia. Artemisia (talk) 14:49, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

@Artemisialufkin, @Henni147: Actually, ref78 refers to the Golden Slam, but only in its blurb and nowhere in the body of the source. I wasn't sure that this was the place to bring this up, but I've never liked the term. Artemisia is correct; I've never seen it anywhere outside of WP, except for that one obscure source, even if it is from the IOC. Personally, I think we shouldn't use it in WP articles and bios and delete the article about it. That's a WikiProject-wide discussion, though, but for this situation, I'd support removing the term from Kim's bio. I will go with what you two say about it, since you're this bio's reviewers. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 02:29, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I noticed that the ISU has used the term "Golden Slam" in some articles on their official website [see https://www.isu.org/search?q=Golden+Slam]. But I'm fine with skipping this semi-official term altogether. Henni147 (talk) 15:20, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

I looked at about half of the search results of "Golden Slam" on the ISU website. Two of the results use the term, but only in the titles of the reports/articles, not in the body's content. The other results show up on the right navigation bar, linking the top two results. That might support our position, that the term isn't a common one. Removed all references to the term here. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:53, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

• "She is the former record holder for ..." → "Kim is a former record holder in all three competition segments in women's singles under the ISU Judging System. She has broken world records 11 times and became the first woman to score above 150 points in the free skating and 200 points in the combined total score."

Added the words "segment in figure skating" after "free skating" to make it more clear. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:27, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

• FS TERMINOLOGY WARNING: The points that skaters receive for the short program, free skating, and combined total are called "scores", NOT "marks". A mark is only awarded by a single judge like +3 for an element or 8.00 for a component. Everything that is averaged across the full panel or calculated by the computer system is a score. This mistake needs to be fixed in the "Records and achievements" section as well.
• "She is also noted for her rivalry with three-time World champion Mao Asada from Japan, which headlined women's skating for two Olympic cycles until 2014." This addition explains and underlines the encyclopedic notability of their rivalry.

I would've thought the link was enough to establish notability, but I'm okay with this change. I used the more grammatically correct "who" and removed the redundant "also". Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:27, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

• I suggest to combine these sentences to one: "Known for her well-rounded skills, achievements, popularity, and impact on the sport, she is one of the most highly recognized athletes in South Korea and regarded as one of the greatest figure skaters in history, being commonly referred to as "Queen Yuna"." I also suggest to move this sentence either to the first paragraph after the first sentence or place it at the end of the third one after listing up all records, firsts, etc. It feels odd to place this information in the middle of various achievements.

I agree. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:27, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

• FS TERMINOLOGY WARNING: The term "artistry" is not an official term used by the ISU and should not be used in the lead section. In the prose part of the article, it is recommended to replace "artistry" by specific performing art skills, such as "choreography/composition skills", "carriage/dancing skills", "music interpretation", "acting skills" or "narration skills", in which the skater is notably strong (it hardly ever happens that a skater is skilled in all of them). "Artistry" is one of the most lightly used and abused terms by FS journalists. Hence, it is strongly recommended to only use it in direct quotes if at all.

I see that you removed the word from the lead, which I don't hate. ;) I think we've dealt sufficiently with the issue in the article's body. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:27, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

• FS terminology note: Replace "skating shows" by the official term "ice shows" and link to the respective article. I also suggest to add a prominent example with All That Skate.
• For better readability, I recommend to change the wording and linking to the ''[[Time (magazine)|Time]]'' magazine's annual list of the [[Time 100|World's 100 Most Influential People]] in 2010.

Update: here is the full adjusted lead, including all suggestions from above, which may give a bit more clarity:

Full lead section with all suggestions implemented

Yuna Kim (Korean: 김연아; born September 5, 1990), also credited in eastern name order as Kim Yuna or Kim Yeon-a, is a South Korean retired figure skater. Known for her well-rounded skills, achievements, popularity, and impact on the sport, she is one of the most highly recognized athletes in South Korea and regarded as one of the greatest figure skaters in history, being commonly referred to as "Queen Yuna". Kim started skating at five years old and competed in women's singles from 2001 to 2014. She is the 2010 Olympic champion, the 2014 Olympic silver medalist, a two-time World champion (2009, 2013) the 2009 Four Continents champion, a three-time Grand Prix Final champion (2006, 2007, 2009), the 2006 World Junior champion, the 2005 Junior Grand Prix Final champion, and a six-time South Korean national champion (2003–2006, 2013, 2014). Kim never finished off the podium in her competitive career, becoming the first South Korean figure skater to medal at the Olympic Games, World Championships, ISU Grand Prix, and ISU Junior Grand Prix. She is also the first female single skater to complete the Golden Slam (senior level) and the first skater across all disciplines to complete the Super Slam (senior and junior level), having won every major international competition in the course of her career. She is a former record holder in all three competition segments in women's singles under the ISU Judging System, having broken world records 11 times and becoming the first woman to score above 150 points in the free skating and 200 points in the combined total score. Kim is also noted for her rivalry with three-time World champion Mao Asada from Japan, which headlined women's skating for two Olympic cycles until the 2014 Winter Olympics in Sochi. After her retirement from competitive figure skating in 2014, Kim was instrumental in the successful bid to bring the 2018 Winter Olympics to her home country in Pyeongchang. She also had a successful professional skating career, producing and appearing in several ice shows like All That Skate. Due to her sponsorships, Kim was one of highest-paid athletes in South Korea, well into her retirement. She was included in the Time magazine's annual list of the World's 100 Most Influential People in 2010 and in several Forbes lists.

I must say: I think I don't hate, perhaps bordering on loving) the way you've rewritten your suggestions. One of my pet peeves about peer reviews on WP is how reviewers waste time (theirs and mine) making suggestions when they could just add them themselves. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 23:01, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Review part III: Prose parts of article body

• Early life:
  • I suggest to move the paragraph about Yuna's name to the top of the section, placing it before or after the date/place of birth. Its current position feels very out-of-context.
  • Style note: Make sure to use the {{lang}} template for text with Korean characters as shown in the draft below.
  • "... born to father Kim Hyeon-seok, a business owner, and mother Park Mi-hee." It's always helpful to clarify who is who.

I disagree with this suggestion. WP bios don't tend to mention nationalities, unless the subject's ethic origin is different. For example, you wouldn't say something like, "Christine [last name] was born in the U.S., she is American." However, you would say that I was born in the U.S. and that my ethnicity is Irish and German. (See 1st paragraph of Johnny Weir.

• • Is the name of the sister known? If yes, it may be added at first mention as well.

I also disagree with this. I don't think that her sister's name is known, but see WP:BLPNAME. I did break this policy in Weir's bio, but his brother is also a public figure and has appeared on TV shows with Johnny. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 04:34, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

If the sister was not introduced to the public or mentioned by mainstream media by name, then yes, I fully agree not to add it. Henni147 (talk) 15:20, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

• • "Kim began skating at the age of five, at a neighborhood rink with her sister." Move this sentence to the beginning of the section's last paragraph before talking about the coaches, and remove the line break between the first two paragraphs. This gives a more clear structure: "Name/birth - Parents/influences - Started skating/coaches".
  • Influences: I suggest to bundle them in one sentence "She named American figure skaters Michelle Kwan and Sasha Cohen as well as Brian Joubert, Stéphane Lambiel, and Tomáš Verner as her influences." I see little value in separating them by the year of mentioning.
  • FS terminology note: Unless very repetitive within a paragraph, it is recommended to add "Summer/Winter" for competitions at the Olympics. In this case, "2010 Vancouver Olympics" should be changed to "2010 Winter Olympics in Vancouver" and "1980 Olympics" to "1980 Winter Olympics".
  • "Her muscles and body structure are perfect for skating." I would definitely add this as a direct quote from the Time article to make clear that the word "perfect" was explicitely used by the coaches and is not a paraphrasation. Especially when it comes to sensitive topics like body shape, we need to be very careful with wording.
  • FS terminology note: At first mention, technical elements should be fully spelled out and linked, in this case "toe loop jump" instead of "toe loop". Casual readers may not know that the toe loop is a jump element. Since the Axel is mentioned in the same context, it is sufficient to write "triple Axel" only.
  • I also made some adjustments in wording, but it's too tiring to list them here one-by-one. If needed, I can mark the changes in the draft below.

I agree with doing things this way, as per my comment above. I would've been fine with (since it's how I handle my reviews) you making copyedits in the article and then writing a detailed edit summary. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 04:47, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Early life section with all suggestions implemented

Kim was born on September 5, 1990, in Gyeonggi Province, South Korea, in the northern part of the country. The correct transliteration of her name is "Kim Yeon-a" (김연아). However, when Kim applied for a passport, the official misspelled her given name as "Yu-na" (유나) instead of "Yeon-a" (연아). Since her competitive days, she asked international media to refer to her as "Yuna Kim" instead of "Kim Yu-na". Kim was born to Korean father Kim Hyeon-seok, a business owner, and mother Park Mi-hee. She also has an older sister [named X]. Her mother, whom The Korea Times called "indisputably the No. 1 contributor to Kim's phenomenal success", took an active role in her daughter's skating career from the beginning, driving her to the ice rink each day, attending all of her practices, and acting as her coach, manager, spokesperson, and mentor. She played English cassette tapes in the car to help Kim improve her English skills. Kim's family often struggled to fund her skating expenses; when her father's business was not doing well enough to pay for her lessons, they put up their house as collateral for a bank loan. Kim's father chose to remain out of media attention, choosing to watch her skate on television along with her sister instead of accompanying Kim to international competitions. Both parents, however, attended the 2010 Winter Olympics in Vancouver. Kim credited both of them with her success as a figure skater. She also named American figure skaters Michelle Kwan and Sasha Cohen as well as Brian Joubert, Stéphane Lambiel, and Tomáš Verner as her influences. Kim began skating at the age of five at a local rink with her sister. Former ice dancer Ryu Jong-hyun coached Kim between the ages of seven and ten, and former single skater Shin Hea-sook, who competed for South Korea at the 1980 Winter Olympics, guided her between 10 and 12 years old. Kim later said that Ryu and Shin both helped her, from the start of her skating career, to become who she was both technically and spiritually. Ryu suggested to Kim's mother, who noticed early on that there was something special about her daughter's skating, that Kim may receive formal training in figure skating. In an interview from 2011, she gave credit to her coaches for noticing and developing her aptitude for skating, who also told her that "her muscles and body structure are perfect for skating". Kim herself added, "I was born with a good instrument, maybe more so than the talent". Ryu cited Kim's work ethic, especially her hard work, dedication, and commitment to practice for her success. She landed her first triple toe loop jump at the age of 10 and, except for the triple Axel, she was able to perform all types of triple jumps cleanly two years later. During her middle school years, her boots often did not fit her as she matured, suffering many injuries, including a period when she had to rest for a month after a pelvic-muscle injury. References

• Early career:
  • Change "She also won the 2003 Golden Bear" to "She also placed first at the 2003 Golden Bear" to reduce the number of sentences with "won" and make the wording less repetitive.

• 2004–05 season:
  • Since Mao Asada is nowhere mentioned in this section, I suggest to move or remove the image on the right.
  • "In the 2004–05 season, Kim competed ..." → "In the 2004–05 season, Kim attended her first international competition in the ISU Junior Grand Prix, having won a gold medal at the 2004 JGP Hungary. It was the first time for a Korean skater to win a Junior Grand Prix event."

I think it's better to continue using the word "competed" because, well, you could say this about me: "Christine attended her first U.S. Nationals in 2007 in Spokane, Washington." Yes, that's true, but I attended Nationals and Kim attended the Junior GP for very different reasons. The sentence with the word "having" is ambiguous and grammatically incorrect because it improperly uses a participial phrase. It implies that she competed at the GP because she won the gold medal in Hungary, which she did not. I'd like to keep those sentences as is, please. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 05:50, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with your points. Henni147 (talk) 15:20, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

• • "She earned an overall score ..." → "She placed first in both competition segments, the short program and the free skating, scoring a combined total of 148.55 points." It is recommended to use the official term "combined total" at first mention.

Followed suggestion, although I added the word "program" after "free skating" because "the free skating" is ungrammatical. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 05:50, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

"The free skating" is correct if it refers to the full competition segment, which is the case here. "Free skate program" makes no sense here because you cannot place first in a single program. Henni147 (talk) 15:20, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Oh now I see the point you were making. Placements in SP and FS are listed in every ISU results of every competition; for example, see here. [1] They're also reported on in this way by most news outlets. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 23:06, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

• • I suggest to replace the word "error" by "mistake", but it's not a must.

I'd like to keep "error", please, because in sports, one makes errors, but the rest of us normal humans make mistakes.

• • FS terminology note: Replace "triple-triple combination" by "combination of two triple jumps". Especially at first mention, it is important for casual readers to know that "combination" refers to jumps here, not spins or other types of elements.

Thanks for catching this. I've realized that I need to be more specific in describing elements (i.e., using the term "jumps" in this instance) and have tried to repair my mistakes (har-har), but I missed it here. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 05:50, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

• • "... because she was under the age of 15." → "because she didn't meet the required age minimum of 15 [years]."

Nice clarification. I added the word "old" at the end of the sentence to make it that much clearer. Watch your contractions! ;) Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 05:50, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

• • FS terminology note: "after her short program" → "after the short program". We are talking about the full competition segment here, not an individual program.
  • FS TERMINOLOGY WARNING: The element "triple combination jump" does not exist. It has to be "triple-triple jump combination", but it's better to specify here the type of triples, using either "[jump] combination of two triple toe loops" or spell out the exact name of the combination: "triple toe loop-triple toe loop [jump] combination".

Okay. I went with your first suggestion because the source doesn't specify the combination's exact name. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 05:50, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

• • FS terminology note: "Junior World Championships" is incorrect. It has to be "World Junior Championships".
  • Content note: Apparently, Yuna placed second three times that season, but it's nowhere mentioned in the section who defeated her. To make the content and wording less repetitive and more interesting to read, I recommend to name the skaters who finished ahead of her and focus on notable results like personal bests, season's bests, world records, large victory margins or unusually weak performances to Yuna's standards. Especially SP/FS scores should be mentioned sparsely.

This brings up a conundrum we editors face, and not just with figure skating articles. We follow the sources, right? When the sources cite SP and FS scores, it's because they consider it important enough to mention, so we should also cite them in our bios. The sources often mention her competitors, but they don't compare their scores with hers; if we did, that's using conjecture, something we shouldn't do. I agree that this way is often repetitive, but it follows what editors in other sports do. I mean, there's only so many times you can say, "Babe Ruth hit homeruns in this game."

Yes, this is a huge issue, indeed. Sports journalists can make very weird content choices at times, skipping so many important information. I got so mad about the amount of time that media wasted on the "Pooh-rain" instead of focussing on Hanyu's actual skating, but that's how it is. Henni147 (talk) 15:20, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree, but that's just so darn cute. One of my Facebook friends asked why people threw stuffed animals and gifts on the ice after a performance, and although I couldn't answer the question because I didn't know, I did post a YouTube clip of it happening and she was pretty impressed. Part of me wishes people in the U.S. went as nuts about skaters as they do in Asia. But that's a digression for another time. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 23:10, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

• 2005–06 season:
  • Section title: "Junior World champion" is incorrect. Change it either to "World Junior champion" (recommended) or use lowercase for "World".
  • FS terminology note: "Kim was first in the junior-level rankings" → which rankings? ISU World Standings or ISU Season's World Ranking or ISU Season's Best Ranking? This needs to be specified and linked to the respective article. Also, what does "For the 2005–06 season" mean? Was Yuna first at the start or end of the 2005–06 season? If it's the end of the season, then I suggest to move this information to the end of this sub-section.

The source is there, ref28, which doesn't say which ranking, just that she was ranked first by the time of the competition discussed, the GP Final. You're right, though, so I moved the ranking info to the end of the paragraph and removed that first phrase. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 05:50, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

• • "She lacked the corporate sponsorship to pay for her training and participation costs, so she experienced financial difficulties;" → "[However], she experienced financial difficulties due to lack of sponsorship, struggling to pay the costs for training and competitions;" This sentence structure improves the connection with the previous one.

Since I changed the previous sentence, is this change necessary anymore? Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 05:50, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Right. In this case, the change is not needed.

• • "competed at the 2005–06 Junior Grand Prix" → "participated in the 2005–06 Junior Grand Prix [series]". This change makes the wording of the paragraph less repetitive.
  • Link "2005–06 Junior Grand Prix Final" to 2005–06 Grand Prix of Figure Skating Final.

Review part IV: Layout and style

• IMAGE WARNING: Make sure to add an alternative text for all images as per MOS:ALT to make screenreaders and similar tools work properly. This is mandatory for articles to be promoted to FA/A/GA class. If the image caption sufficiently describes the content displayed in the image, set |alt=Refer to caption without a full stop. Here are two examples for correct usage:

  [[File:2008 World Championships Banquet21.jpg|thumb|upright|alt=Refer to caption|Kim with [[Mao Asada]] (right), 2008]]

[[File:Opening_ceremony_DVo-tC7U0AAPyz3.jpg|thumb|left|alt=Distant night shot of the Olympic cauldron at Pyeongchang Olympic Stadium|[[2018 Winter Olympics opening ceremony]], after Kim lit the Olympic cauldron]]
• IMAGE WARNING: Remove images with watermarks from the article as per WP:WATERMARK. One of them is in the section about the 2013–14 season.
• CAPTION WARNING: Make sure to be consistent with the format of image captions, using either full sentences with a full stop or sentence fragments without a full stop. The latter is recommended and also more used in this article.
  Example: "Kim performing her free skate to Les Misérables at the 2013 World Championships." ← remove the full stop here as it is not a full sentence (only a fragment)
• I suggest to add the parameter |upright for vertical images to make them less bulky. Example:
  [[File:2008 World Championships Banquet21.jpg|thumb|upright|alt=Refer to caption|Kim with [[Mao Asada]] (right), 2008]]
• Caption note: For images with multiple people, place "(left)", "(right)" or "(center)" after the respective person's name in the caption. Yuna herself does not need to be marked.
  Example for correct usage: "Yuna Kim, Mao Asada (left), and Joannie Rochette (right) at the 2010 Winter Olympics podium" (no full stop at the end)

That's it for now. I will continue the review later. Henni147 (talk) 09:33, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

@Henni147, I have now completed addressing your feedback. Waiting to hear about more. Thanks for your thoroughness! Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 03:00, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

@Henni147LOL, Henni, I just want to say you're amazingly methodical with your reviews! Editor120918756 (talk) 11:29, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you very much! Generally, I prefer not to do copy-edits in the article itself (English is only my third language and I don't want to mess up your good work). If you like my solution with the collapsed drafts, I can add them for the following sections as well.

I'm very pleased with the lead section now. Just two small comments:

• "first woman to score above 150 points in the free skating segment in figure skating and 200 points in the combined total score." → I would skip "in figure skating" here. The wording makes it sound as if only the free skating score was a figure skating score and the combined total wasn't. Since Kim is a former figure skater, it's natural that we are talking about figure skating scores here.
• "Kim is noted for her rivalry with three-time World champion Mao Asada from Japan, who headlined women's skating" → I would prefer to use "which" or "that" here. "Who" can be misunderstood in a way that only Asada headlined those two cycles, but it's the rivalry of the two that headlined this period.

The reviewed prose sections until the 2005–06 season look perfect now. Only thing that should be changed: Remove "program" after "free skating" in the 2004–05 section. The offical name of the full competition segment is "the free skating" or "the free skating segment". "The free skate program" only refers to a single program within that competition segment. We must be careful with correct terminology there.

I will check the remaining prose sections next week. The last days have been very tough with my father's stomach surgery. And I witnessed a man being hit full force by an arriving tube at my local subway station on Friday (turned out that it was a 33-year old shoplifter who tried to escape the police; I'm still a bit in shock). Henni147 (talk) 15:20, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes I agree, so thorough! My response to your language concerns: Pshaw! Non-native speakers of English say that kind of thing a lot, but the facts don't bear you out. I mean, you make just as many grammar errors as I, a native English speaker do, and you've been kind enough to point them out when you see them. And you should, and I should point them out in your writing when I see them, too. That's one of the things we do for each other as reviewers. I've already tried to include what's in your collapsed drafts, but feel free to add anything I've missed. I'm sorry about your recent traumas, but grateful that your father went ahead with his surgery and that you're generous with your time here. We all go through sh*t, including yours truly. I made the two changes you've requested. Thanks again. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 23:29, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Henni147, pinging you because we're still waiting for you to complete this assessment, as you promised. Hope all is well. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 20:38, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Comments by Apqaria

I am glad to join this project. While I am very familiar with Yuna's career, I want to focus in my review on the article's contents. I will try to go through it in detail starting this weekend to see how the info matches the references included in the article. Hope this will help even if a little for this project. Apqaria (talk) 23:10, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Review part I

I have started my review and here are some points I found till now: For consistency, in the lead mention the years in which she won the Grand Prix Final like other championships Done. Artemisia (talk) 21:07, 2 June 2024 (UTC) The following paragraph in the lead has redundant information. I think it is enough to have the second sentence only She is the first female skater ever to win every major international competition, namely, the Olympic Games, the World Championships, the Four Continents Championships, and the Grand Prix Final. She is also the first figure skater ever to complete a Super Slam, having won every major senior and junior competition. They're slightly different achievements so I've left it for now. Artemisia (talk) 21:07, 2 June 2024 (UTC) Super Slam by definition is winning every major senior and junior international competition which includes the Olympic Games, the World Championships, the Four Continents Championships, and the Grand Prix Final so they are not different achievements. They are different achievements. The first says that she was the first female skater to win every major senior competition, while the second says that she was the first overall skater to win every major senior and junior competition. Artemisia (talk) 11:48, 3 June 2024 (UTC) I also think the link to the Super Slam should go directly to the Super Slam section (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Slam_(figure_skating)#Super_Slam) instead of the overall Grand Slam page Apqaria (talk) 22:43, 2 June 2024 (UTC) Done. Artemisia (talk) 11:48, 3 June 2024 (UTC) I saw different information about when Yuna started skating so not sure which should be used https://www.goldenskate.com/firsts-keep-coming-for-kim/ (age of six) https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/nation/2010/02/113_61510.html (age of six) https://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/2005/01/31/features/Grace-and-beauty-at-a-price/2524387.html (age of five) https://archive.ph/20120716074035/http://media.daum.net/breakingnews/sports/view.html?cateid=1031&newsid=20090518110807256&p=newsen (age of seven) The following sentence in the early life section also has redundant info since this was mentioned in the previous paragraph In 2010, Philip Hersh reported that when Kim was 7 years old, her family struggled to pay for her skating lessons. Removed. Artemisia (talk) 21:07, 2 June 2024 (UTC) I saw this reference used when mentioning info about Yuna's parents but I don't see why since it doesn't have much about that and I see the other reference accompanying it is enough to be used. https://web.archive.org/web/20110822030418/http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2089091,00.html I've left it in as it says her mother attended all her practices, which isn't explicitly stated in the other source. Artemisia (talk) 21:07, 2 June 2024 (UTC) This reference no longer exist, should be marked as dead https://www.ifsmagazine.com/yuna-kim-riding-a-golden-wave/ Done. Artemisia (talk) 21:07, 2 June 2024 (UTC) Apqaria (talk) 22:59, 26 May 2024 (UTC) @Apqaria I am pretty sure I'd asked this to @Artemisialufkin or someone else (on a different website) once, and they clarified these discrepancies come from the concept of "Korean age". Editor120918756 (talk) 09:14, 29 May 2024 (UTC) Yes, it's due to the Korean age system. She was five when she began skating. Artemisia (talk) 09:52, 29 May 2024 (UTC) @Artemisialufkin I can no longer crawl through Yuna's website on archive.org for whatever reason. I'd added the personal statements of her favorite jumps from there, but can no longer find the comment on the wiki page, but I guess the reference no longer exists anyway. Editor120918756 (talk) 09:59, 29 May 2024 (UTC) Thanks for the clarification Apqaria (talk) 22:31, 2 June 2024 (UTC) @Apqaria, @Artemisialufkin here are my feelings about "Korean age" : I think we should follow the source. Since it's unclear due to how Korean culture counts ages, we should add, "According to...", which I have done. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:47, 4 June 2024 (UTC) @Figureskatingfan Her age was actually confirmed by her website. I think it was in the article at some point but it must have been removed. Artemisia (talk) 17:10, 4 June 2024 (UTC) @Artemisialufkin, then we should add it as a source, done. The website is dead, so I don't think we should add it in her infobox or in the External sources section. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:33, 4 June 2024 (UTC) @Artemisialufkin oh here's the q&a about her favorite jumps again. https://web.archive.org/web/20141116094341/http://www.yunakim.com/new2012/eng/about/questions.php Why did we remove this from the wiki page? Editor120918756 (talk) 06:57, 5 June 2024 (UTC) More review points The following references should be marked as live https://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/2016/03/15/figure-skating/choreographer-wilson-regrets-transformative-kims-early-retirement/ https://www.goldenskate.com/2006-07-grand-prix-final-ladies-highlights/ https://www.goldenskate.com/kim-leads-with-record-score-at-worlds/ Done. Artemisia (talk) 11:48, 3 June 2024 (UTC) While reading the "2006–2007 season: Senior debut and World medal" section (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuna_Kim#2006%E2%80%932007_season:_Senior_debut_and_World_medal) I found the article goes too much into the performances and all elements in it and it is making the section quite lengthy and a bit too much of a read. I don't know if this is the case with other sections as well but I advise trying to revise that if possible focusing more on the results and the highlights of the performances only. I noticed that in the Detailed results section, the images are all shown first then the table. Please see the screenshot in the following link (https://imgur.com/a/ctHNXJg) I am also experiencing this problem. I think it may be an issue with the template. Henni147, do you have any solutions? Artemisia (talk) 11:48, 3 June 2024 (UTC) I see no problem with the images in the Detailed results section. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:50, 4 June 2024 (UTC) I think it depends on the device screen width used so it might be the reason you can't see it on your device compared to mine. Apqaria (talk) 22:36, 4 June 2024 (UTC) Apqaria (talk) 22:37, 2 June 2024 (UTC) Everyone, my apologies for how long it's taken me to address comments, and thanks to Apqaria for their assistance. I think that I can keep up now, so looking forward to more comments. We need to address the "very long" tag that was placed on the bio this week, although I'm not sure that this is the correct place, so I'm going to address it on the bio's talk page. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:56, 4 June 2024 (UTC) @Apqaria I agree that the 2006-07 section and some others need some trimming. Editor120918756 (talk) 17:26, 4 June 2024 (UTC) I respectfully disagree about the length. As I stated in the bio's talk page, its length is comparable to other major athletes' bio, which have just as much (if not more) detail about their careers and scores. Why is it a problem for figure skaters and not for other athletes, hmm? I'm open to ideas about creating new forked articles, though, if there were good suggestions about how to do it. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:53, 4 June 2024 (UTC) @Figureskatingfan I don't know about other athletes. I personally don't think we need to go into details for every competition though. Making sure there are enough details about worlds/olympics makes perfect sense, but I'm not sure how much value there is to every grand prix and grand prix final being expanded upon. We could condense those significantly, but that's just my opinion. Editor120918756 (talk) 07:00, 5 June 2024 (UTC) Again, I disagree. That amount of detail tells a story about the elements skaters use, their effectiveness, the progress (or lack thereof) of their programs, and their growth (or decline) as an athlete. Bios of other athletes in other sports go into the same kind of detail; I could give you lots of examples other than Babe Ruth. There's no complaint about the length of his bio on its talk page. Comprehensiveness is one of Wikipedia's values; there's no policy that states we need to account for mobile devices. One of the things this bio does is track Kim's injuries and using sources, implies that her training in Korea contributed to them and most likely held her back. If she had better training and more resources in Korea like Hanyu or Nathan Chen did, she might have accomplished more and remained in the sport longer. That's not said outright in her bio because there are no sources that explicitly state it, but a reader that spends time with a bio with that level of detail and comprehensiveness might get that. Yes, higher-level competitions like Worlds and the Olympics are important, but so are the other competitions. What about the skaters that never make it to the Olympics but are successful nonetheless? One of the weaknesses with figure skating articles and bios is that they lack comprehensiveness, which is one of the reasons so few of them are FAs and GAs. I believe that it's our responsibility to fill in the content gaps, even if it means long articles and bios. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:40, 5 June 2024 (UTC) Strong support to trim and/or split off content. The ideal size for an article to read and navigate comfortably, if you want readers to actually be engaged, is between 6000–9000 words. Once you get past those word counts, the more likely readers will just lose interest and walk away. There appears to be a misconception here that the length of an article (comprehensiveness) somehow equates to quality, and that simply is not true. Longer doesn’t necessarily mean more useful content, it just means more content. Per the Manual of Style, article content should be written succinctly; excessive verbosity is not always a good thing, an article that is too long to read and navigate comfortably is just that, too long to read and navigate comfortably. And at ~13,000 words, or more, readers more than likely are not going to stick around and read Yuna Kim. Isaidnoway (talk) 09:12, 6 June 2024 (UTC) @Figureskatingfan Editor120918756 (talk) 19:54, 6 June 2024 (UTC) @Editor120918756, @Apqaria: As much as I would like to, this isn't the place to resolve policy issues about the length of articles. I've stated my reasons why this bio is an exception, but you're not considering my arguments, which doesn't help towards obtaining the goal here of improving Kim's bio. I've said above that I'm willing to create some forked articles to decrease the word count and asked for suggestions, so I'll ask again. In the meantime, let's put a hold on this review until this issue is resolved. Thanks. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:25, 7 June 2024 (UTC) Here are some possible solutions: Splitting off the end sections to a list: "Records, achievements, and scores of Yuna Kim," which removes almost 2240 words and would bring the word count to this main bio to over 10,700 words. Yuna Kim Olympic seasons (like in Yuzuru Hanyu). BTW, Hanyu's bio is a little over 10,500 words. Yuna Kim Junior figure skating career: would remove about 850 words. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:02, 7 June 2024 (UTC) Excuse me, but I just now saw all the comments about the article length (which was not exactly my concern in my review comment) so I don't know why you feel I am not considering your arguments. Now replying to your concerns, if you read my review comment again I talked about my observation that the section I reviewed go in details of each elements in the program and that it would be better to focus more on the highlights and results (I even saw in other sections that comments about her costume were mentioned which again I think is too much details) So what I suggested is that instead of going in details in almost all the elements we can highlight the elements that was unique to that competition/performance like the ones that were done for the first time or set her apart from other competitors or had impact on the results. I never said to only mention Olympic seasons or not mention the injuries or skip mentioning some competitions! I think that what I mentioned doesn't contradict with what you want to achieve about comprehensiveness but actually the opposite because with that readers will focus on the info and elements highlighted instead of getting lost and bored reading about all the elements that they might not even be familiar with. And for more details on the performance and its other elements readers always have the option to check the references. And again I stated in my comment to "revise that if possible" since I don't know if the time will permit to do this right away but that could be considered even if not done right away. I personally don't see the need to split the competitive content into multiple pages since Yuna's competitive seasons are not that much to begin with and I actually think revising the sections and making them more compact and on point, I think the length will be affected greatly and may not need additional actions. Apqaria (talk) 00:23, 8 June 2024 (UTC) @Apqaria, my apologies for the miscommunication; I was directing my statement generally, not to you specifically. About elements details: one of the things that a lot of detail does is to allow readers to compare what elements a skater uses or doesn't use across competitions, and even across seasons. For example, Kim consistently had difficulty with her triple Lutz throughout much of her career. No one source states that, since reporters don't tend to discuss how a skater uses particular elements over seasons, so it needs to be in the content so that readers get that. Also, no reporter goes into an analysis of new elements; they just recite what elements she used in each competition and how well she performed them. Remember, we can't present our analysis or interpretations of programs; we can only present what the sources state. I'm not sure that following your suggestion about tightening up the content will do much to decrease the word count. Perhaps forking much of the content will help with the length, although as I've said before, other bios about other prominent athletes in other sports have the same amount of detail and are just as lengthy. I've looked at many of the longer athlete bios, and I've not yet seen any complaint about word count. Can anyone explain to me why it's important for figure skater bios? Is it a gender thing, or are we too concerned that figure skating isn't as popular as other sports like baseball? If it's the latter, perhaps we need to go into detail so that readers know that it's a technical and complicated sport, and that we treat it like the more popular ones. I'm not sure what you mean by "Yuna's competitive seasons are not that much to begin with". Are you talking about the possible new "Records, achievements, and scores of Yuna Kim" list? Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:07, 8 June 2024 (UTC) Again it is up to us to decide what are the important elements or info to keep. All I am saying is that this needs revision since IMO there is so much details now and as I said in my latest review comments it is not only about the elements. About the part "Yuna's competitive seasons are not that much to begin with", No I mean the Competitive skating career section overall. I don't think we need to have a special article about the Olympic seasons or junior career and separate the contents since I still do believe that the revision of content will affect the length. If you compare each season section with other skaters like "Mao Asada" for example the length of each section may actually be the double here in Yuna's article. What I suggest is that we start with the revision and then after that we see if such split need to be done based on the length we end up with. Apqaria (talk) 23:04, 8 June 2024 (UTC) We could ask @Artemisialufkin's opinion, because tbh I find myself in agreement with Apqaria. I've already stated my opinion before, so some additional voices would be good. Editor120918756 (talk) 09:26, 10 June 2024 (UTC) Considering three separate editors have raised concerns about the article length/level of detail, I think it's something we have to take into consideration. Personally, I do see areas that could be condensed. I'm not sure, for example, that we need to mention things like spin levels, which won't mean much to the average reader – we need to remember that we're writing for a lay audience. I also think Apqaria has a point (raised further down) about the overreliance on reporter opinions and speculation. Artemisia (talk) 16:00, 10 June 2024 (UTC) I agree about @Apqaria's point with the speculation from reporters, as well. I think we could review it a bit in the next few days. @Artemisialufkin I stand by my point that we could reduce the descriptions of GP/GPF. Not eliminate all of it, but reduce it. And we can keep the lengthier descriptions of worlds/olympics while removing the speculative tone where necessary. This is Yuna-specific. I'm genuinely not familiar with how it's gone for other athletes, and personally I feel that's unnecessary to look at. Editor120918756 (talk) 11:31, 11 June 2024 (UTC) I agree that the prose is entirely too wordy with far too much detail. As an uninvolved editor (I have only previously worked on the formatting of the tables on this article, but have never touched the prose), I have begun trimming some of it down. My apologies if this upsets anyone, but the sea of numbers and technical details/skating jargon makes much of the prose difficult to understand for a casual reader. Bgsu98 (Talk) 18:14, 11 June 2024 (UTC) More review points Before I mention my points, I am again mentioning that I am only focusing in my review on the content of the article not much about any policy or structure issues since I am not that experienced to be fully aware of those. Also please note that like I mentioned when I received the invitation to join this project, I may not be quick in my responses as my time is limited to times on weekends to do this review. Now, here are my points: In the 2007–08 season section, the first sentence (During the off-season during the 2007–08 season,) I find it confusing. I think it is enough to say "During the off-season" since the section itself is about the 2007–08 season also I see that the 2007–08 season page doesn't exist. The confusion is that even though the figure skating season runs from July to June, many sources consider the months before senior competitions begin as "the off-season," probably because that's what other sports do. There are lower-level competitions that take place during the summer that aren't televised or streamed, and that's the time when new programs are developed and training takes place. As a result, I changed the phrase to "At the beginning of..." Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:25, 11 June 2024 (UTC) In the 2007–08 season section, I don't see the need to mention one of her exhibition programs since the focus here is on the competitions and also it is not consistent to only mention this one while it is not her only exhibition program for the season and also such detail about exhibition programs wasn't mentioned in other seasons. Just following the sources. The line about Kim's exhibition program was included here because unfortunately, it was the only source that mentioned it. But I cut it, anyway. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:25, 11 June 2024 (UTC) In the 2008–2009 season section, I think it would be better to mention her program's music choices before going into the details of Skate America scores and performances. It would make a better flow of info for the reader. I also think the info about her costume is too much of an info. Moved the info about the free skate music up to after the info about the short program. Cut the costume info as per your suggestion, although (and I'm going on the record here), info about costume choice is just as important as music or choreography choices. We should do a project-wide informal poll about if figure skating should have uniforms like other sports. ;) Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:25, 11 June 2024 (UTC) The following articles should be marked as dead http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpchn08/CAT002RS.HTM http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/sports/2009/03/600_42177.html http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs_pb_00007232.htm http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs_cr_00007232.htm All done. The following article has restricted access now https://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/29/sports/othersports/29women.html Actually, all NYT refs should be marked as restrictive; done. This article should be marked as live http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/figureskating/news/story?id=4024682 Done. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:00, 11 June 2024 (UTC) Also a general observation which I noticed in the sections I reviewed this time, I think it is better to not over-quote reporters' impressions and speculations in the article in general. I think that will help the article remain neutral and have more compact content. Again this will help with the article length concerns. Examples of this are the following quotes but there are too many others: Rutherford speculated that if she had not faltered on her Axel, she might have scored a personal best. Kang speculated that the judges might have been overly strict in their scoring of Kim's program. Apqaria (talk) 00:29, 8 June 2024 (UTC) Everyone, I'm thinking about what to do to cut the word count. What do you think about removing Kim's scores, since they can be accessed in both the results table and in the sources? If acceptable, I'll go ahead and do it. More to come. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:28, 11 June 2024 (UTC) If I'm reading correctly, the current word count is 11,487. Bgsu98 (Talk) 19:05, 11 June 2024 (UTC) I'm fine with moving the Olympic sections to a new article, if it allows us to retain the length, and also expound upon the scandal (including the brief interlude we had with Sotnikova again in 2023). @Apqaria@Artemisialufkin@Bgsu98@Figureskatingfan Beyond that, I want the 2006-07 to be somewhat lengthy (I trimmed it to what I believe is appropriate), because it was pivotal in many ways for her. I am looking at ways to trim the rest. Editor120918756 (talk) 10:47, 12 June 2024 (UTC) Hi again, as per the above recommendations, I created a new forked article. (See Yuna Kim Olympic seasons; it's my intention to work more on it later.) The cuts made to this bio has brought it to 9,904 words, within the requested length. I've also removed the too long tag. I'm not entirely happy with it, but I think it satisfies all interested parties. I don't think any more trimming is warranted, though. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:35, 12 June 2024 (UTC) More review points Sorry that I couldn't do much review in the last couple of weeks but please find my latest comments Since now there is a separate article about Yuna's olympic seasons, I think we can merge both 2009–10 season section and 2010 Winter Olympics: Gold medal sub section under "2009–10 season" and make it more compact than it is now. The following article should be marked as dead http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2010/04/136_61499.html The following article has restricted access now https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/30/sports/30iht-skating30.html The link to the Yuna's Olympics seasons article in the 2013–2014 season section is wrong. It should lead instead to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuna_Kim_Olympic_seasons#2013%E2%80%932014_season:_Olympic_silver_medal and also the link to the olympics related should be https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_skating_at_the_2014_Winter_Olympics Apqaria (talk) 20:44, 1 July 2024 (UTC) @Apqaria, I believe merging the two sections like you're suggesting has already been done. Currently, "2009–10 season: Super Slam" is sub-section 2 and "2010 Winter Olympics: Gold medal" is sub-section 3. It's not clear that the second section is a sub-section of the first one, so perhaps we should re-arrange it this way: "2009–10 season" (sub-section 2) ==> "Super Slam" (sub-section 3) ==> "2010 Winter Olympics: Gold medal" (sub-section 3). Just fixed the above links, thanks for the catches. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:12, 1 July 2024 (UTC) Need for third reviewer Everyone, I realize that this review has been languishing because it doesn't have the required third reviewer. If anyone is watching this review and you've never worked on this bio, please consider stepping up. I've asked several reviewers, but no one has even responded. The next step is to go to other projects to request their assistance. Stay tuned; we may need to talk about if two reviewers is adequate to pass this article to A-class. I suppose we should've chosen an article or bio that so many of us have worked on. ;) Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:16, 1 July 2024 (UTC) Hi @Christine, Sorry I've not been on wikipedia for a bit. I'd asked @Henni147 if she knew anyone else, but I didn't get a response from her. Editor120918756 (talk) 10:29, 16 July 2024 (UTC) @Editor120918756 and everyone, this is beginning to be a problem. I mean, we're not in any hurry and assessments tend to languish, anyway, but it worries me a bit. I'm beginning to think that the summer holidays may be an issue. I've asked several people to review this bio; mostly, I've gotten no responses, with one person rejecting the request. I've also put an appeal on the Women Sports WikiProject talk page, but no responses yet. I'm not yet ready to give up, or at least to make other suggestions. I'd like to give it a little bit more time and ask a couple of editors who haven't contributed that much. Part of the problem is that I'm going through difficulties in my personal life these days, so everything is taking longer to accomplish. I thank you in advance for your flexibility and understanding. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 23:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC) @Figureskatingfan I've put your message onto Project Olympics and Project Korea, if you don't mind. Editor120918756 (talk) 06:15, 17 July 2024 (UTC) Not at all, those are good ideas, the more requests the better. Thanks, Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:45, 17 July 2024 (UTC) Hi all, so we got a response from a member of WikiProject Olympics, recommending that we come to a consensus about the quality of this article; see here. I think that we should follow their recommendation, so I'm requesting that the two reviewers User:Henni147 and User:Apqaria complete their assessment and then vote to either pass this article to A-class or not. Thanks and best, Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:03, 18 July 2024 (UTC) @Henni147 Editor120918756 (talk) 15:46, 28 July 2024 (UTC) @Figureskatingfan Do you have a way of contacting Henni? she's not responding to me at all. Editor120918756 (talk) 08:56, 31 August 2024 (UTC) @Editor120918756 I've been in email contact with Henni; she's had some major family issues and difficulties, but has just promised in an email she sent yesterday that she'd come back here to complete the review. Thanks to everyone for your patience and willingness to have this review languish for so long. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:52, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Final review points

I am finally done with my review. Sorry that it took longer than I anticipated but please find below my final comments

• These articles should be marked as live
  • https://sports.news.naver.com/news.nhn?oid=003&aid=0000474378
  • https://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/2018/08/21/figure-skating/choreography-legend-david-wilson-man-demand/
  • https://www.reuters.com/article/us-olympics-korea-reaction/pyeongchang-pick-themselves-up-after-2014-loss-idUSSP27080820070705/
  • https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/sports/2010/05/600_66079.html
  • https://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/ct-xpm-2011-07-06-chi-vote-for-2018-winter-games-over-in-one-round-20110706-story.html
  • http://www.espn.com/olympics/winter/2014/figureskating/story/_/id/10490435/2014-sochi-olympics-russian-adelina-sotnikova-wins-gold-yu-na-kim-2nd-gracie-gold-4th/

• The link to Super Slam in the Records and achievements section should go directly to the Super Slam section ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Slam_(figure_skating)#Super_Slam ) instead of the overall Grand Slam page

Apqaria (talk) 17:05, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

All done. Um, I have a question 'cause I'm just curious. Why did you have me change the URL status of those links? It's my understanding that when a link is live (i.e., when it's not dead), you don't have to include that its status is live. Like I said, just curious. Now it looks like we're waiting for Henni to chime in to finish her review. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 05:19, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

If you add archive URL, you have to specify the status of the link. Otherwise if you clicked on the reference it leads to the archive version not the original one. Apqaria (talk) 01:18, 22 July 2024 (UTC)