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October 5

Polygenism

I can't remember who wrote that Homo sapiens derived from three different apes i.e. Europeans from chimpanzee, Africans from gorilla, and East Asians from orangutan. Thanks in advance.-- Carnby (talk) 07:23, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The biological racist Alexander Winchell 1824 - 1891 who vaguely states "The doctrine of evolution does not teach that any existing ape is in the direct line of man's ancestry, but that the simian line and the human line are united in remote generalized ancestors common to both groups".[1] is worth further searching in Preadamites Or, a Demonstration of the Existence of Men Before Adam (1888) . Philvoids (talk) 14:02, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In the US, Samuel George Morton and Louis Agassiz were early exponents of the idea, at least in regard to black Africans. In Europe, Carl Vogt promoted the concept, and the influential Ernst Haeckel also espoused it. Both were German, and evidently the idea persisted well into the 20th century in Germany, because around 1980-ish I bought a UK paperback newly published (by Sphere Books?), translated from a German original, that gave a 'popular' modern account of it (and was of course utter tosh, though amusing): unfortunately I no longer seem to have it (though I collect wacky pseudoscience books) ~~and can't remember the author or title~~.

[Edited to add] Strike that last, I've recalled (the name is, err, memorable) – it's The Beginning Was the End by Oscar Kiss Maerth, published in Germany in 1971 and in the UK 1973 (Sphere pb 1974, I suspect I bought a reprint). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.86.81 (talk) 16:49, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Are any of these three types of apes able to cross-breed? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:30, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It seems unlikely because of how long ago their lineages diverged: For comparison: chimps and bonobos about 2 million years ago, and can; humans and chimps/bonobos about 5–7 mya, and can't (different chromosome count, other primates 48, humans 46 owing to a post-divergence merger of two chromosomes); gorillas and h/c/b about 8 mya; orangutans and g/h/c/b about 17±2 mya. As far as I'm aware, humans, bonobos, chimps, gorillas or orangutans have never been observed to attempt a mutual intraspecies mating (orangs would never encounter the others in the wild), and it would obviously be unethical to attempt to "assist" such a thing except in vitro (good luck with getting funding). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.86.81 (talk) 19:36, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, it was tried by the Soviets, see Humanzee. Abductive (reasoning) 10:51, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the 46 vs 48 chrmosomes may not completely prohibit chimp-human interbreeding. A similar situation exists with horses and asses, but mules are still a thing. If human-chimp crosses are possible, the resulting "humanzee" would likely be sterile. But if you think chimp-gorilla breeding experiments would be unethical... hooo boy, those ain't got nuthin' on this. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 21:48, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hence, it seems highly unlikely that human descendants of these three species would somehow magically be able to interbreed, yet they can. Humans are a single species. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:43, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Although somewhat hybridised with Homo neanderthalis, Denisovans, and at least one other as-yet-unidentified archaic human (from genetic evidence).

There is some disagreement within anthropology as to whether these are or are not different species, or varieties of the same species (Professor Clive Finlayson, Director of the Gibralter National Museum thinks so, for one) and indeed which of the 30-odd differing definitions of 'species' is applicable. 94.6.86.81 (talk) 18:31, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Very true. The concept of "species" is highly questionable. For example are Przewalski's horse and domestic horse the same species, despite the fact they have a different number of chromosomes? In the Plant kingdom it is even worse. I suspect that many different species in the well-known genera Quercus and Sorbus are variation of the same species.-- Carnby (talk) 21:01, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is only the one human species. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:41, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is, now, of course: it even has a lower genetic diversity than all other primate species, and most other mammal species. The question is how many there were 50,000, or 200,000, or 500,000, or 1,500,000 years ago. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.86.81 (talk) 00:50, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No one doubts it. Except perhaps for some isolated African populations (i.e Khoisan and Pygmies) that could be considered perhaps subspecies, from a merely zoological standpoint. But no matter: a Senegalese, a Korean, and a Norwegian belong to the same species and subspecies.-- Carnby (talk) 09:24, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]