Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2013 September 11

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September 11

Mysteries of the American water heater

So, I'm looking at the water heater (the most usual style in the US, big storage tank with electric or gas heater) and the mode of piping installation baffles me. The tank itself has female screw threads for in and out; there are short male on both ends couplings that go into each; then, the female pipes that thread into those couplings end with like 6 inch stubs of copper pipe which are then soldered to the rest of the piping. This of course means you can't unscrew the fittings, to disconnect the pipes from the heater you need to either cut the pipe or desolder the connection. This system seems to be universal, in every house I look at, in all the instructions for installation that come with heaters, on the internet sites, etc.

Why? I understand not soldering directly to the tank to prevent overheating, but this setup with female threaded stub pipes requires that the pipe be screwed into the heater before soldering, unlike other couplings which have a ring which is tightened and holds the couplings on the two pipes together and can be opened and closed, so that the soldering can be done while the coupling is unscrewed, then assembled. So why this system? All over the system are these other couplings that are screwed together, they're all under the same pressure as the heater connections, it's not as if the heater connections are under special stress. It would be bad if the heater connections leaked, but it would be equally bad (if not worse, depending on location) if any of the other connections in the system leaked. Conversely, if there is a good reason why the heater needs to be soldered in, why the rigamarole of putting in a potentially leaky screw connection just to solder to the pipe? Why not build the thing with 6 inches of copper pipe protruding from the heater so you can solder directly?? Any plumbing theoreticians out there? Gzuckier (talk) 01:47, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

I’m no plumber, but my first thought was that a large, barrel-shaped object with bits of pipe sticking out would be harder to ship without damage than one without the extra pipe. It also occurs to me that the unit may not be built for casual servicing. DOR (HK) (talk) 05:36, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

There also has to be a dieletric union - and that may need to be somewhere away from the heater, at least so the inspector can see it. Rmhermen (talk) 14:08, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Could you replace the solder connections with a screww connection? And put in a small isolating valve while you're at it. Astronaut (talk) 15:49, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

I am a UK based plumbing and heating engineer and I am not familiar with US systems or indeed what you would would refer to as a water heater but as heating water causes it to expand, I would not recommend adding an isolating valve unless you know what you are doing. If you block an expansion pipe you are risking an explosion. All that aside, it sounds to me like the installer used end feed/capillary fittings, probably because they are cheaper, and you are going to have to cut the pipework to remove it. You can replace the fittings with compression fittings afterwards which can be unscrewed later if you wish. As I've said before, I don't have experience of US systems but I imagine that the heating is carried out indirectly via a heat exchanger. If this is the case, you will need to drain both sides of the system, as draining the tank might not remove the water from the pipe you are cutting into.--Ykraps (talk) 18:25, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Dumpster diving?

Note the guy just a little to the left of the center of the picture, standing at street level at the base of the central building. Is he dumpster diving? I'm tempted to put this image into Commons:Category:Dumpster diving, but not without input from others. I took the image ten days ago, but I didn't notice the dumpster or the guy until I uploaded it a few minutes ago. Nyttend (talk) 02:18, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Seems possible, but hardly conclusive. How do you know he didn't throw something away himself, then think "oh I hope my wallet wasn't in there" or something? I'm not saying that's the likeliest explanation but I don't know how you can rule it out. --Trovatore (talk) 02:24, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

If the guy's a distraction from the intended focus of the photo, he could be "painted out". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:39, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

I think it's a little dubious to be using a photo of someone without their permission and labelling them with a derogatory such as "dumpster diver" - and without clear reliably-sourced evidence. That's a pretty significant violation of WP:BLP - so I strongly discourage you from using the photo in that context. SteveBaker (talk) 02:41, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Absolutely. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:43, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

He could also be putting something in rather than taking something out, though it's hard to tell. In any case I concur with Steve's suggestion due to the vagueness of the picture. If the building is the interest here, you could (as mentioned above) just "edit him out" of the picture. Many free image editing programs can do this. --.Yellow1996.^(ЬMИED¡) 02:55, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

[ec with Yellow] I'm only asking about categorisation for Commons, and Commons fortunately doesn't have a BLP policy that's so easily abused; the closest is Commons:Commons:Photographs of identifiable people, which is irrelevant to photos of unidentifiable people in public places. Please simply discuss the image and possible interpretations, such as Trovatore is doing. The image is being used here, but only to illustrate the buildings around the guy; he's a minor enough figure that he doesn't warrant photo manipulation. Nyttend (talk) 02:56, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

The actual dumpster diving article already has a couple of reasonably good illustrations, and even if this one was acceptable I don't think it would add much information. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:02, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Well the thing here is we're not completely sure if he is dumpster diving. I'm going to stick with he's probably just putting something in there. For categorization I'd decide that based on the location of the scene/building/type of building etc. --.Yellow1996.^(ЬMИED¡) 03:23, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Um, I've never talked about adding it to the dumpster diving article; the only article in which it appears is National Register of Historic Places listings in Downtown and Downtown West St. Louis, because it's taken in the district that's #91 on the list. The scene is an urban apartment complex, but the building with the dumpster is an annex to a church that was constructed something like 75 to 100 years before the apartments around it. Nyttend (talk) 04:49, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

• Most people wouldn't lean on a dumpster to put something, but rather toss an item in and lean on it to remove an item. That being said, the image should be cropped if possible or replaced. μηδείς (talk) 05:00, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

The image itself isn't problematic - the guy is doing whatever he's doing and he's a minor part of the image. The photo is just fine and doesn't need to be photoshopped or cropped or whatever.

The problem is categorizing it as "Dumpster diving" - which means that you are making a public statement to the effect that "The person you are seeing in this photograph is taking things from the dumpster without permission." - which in many jurisdictions would be illegal (See Dumpster_diving#Legal_status).

The fact that you see him reaching deep down into the dumpster proves nothing. Maybe he's putting a glass bottle in there that he doesn't want to smash and make a lot of noise? Maybe he's the owner of the dumpster? Maybe he's a government dumpster inspector who's working undercover(!)? Maybe he's rescuing a kitten who fell into the dumpster? Who knows? Sure as hell we don't!

So, in effect, you'd be saying "This guy is a thief" when in truth, he could be putting something into the dumpster - or he could be the owner of the dumpster - or retrieving something he'd previously dropped into the dumpster by mistake.

It's simply not right, fair or reasonable to make that statement when you have zero proof. Even if WikiCommons allows it (I'm not 100% familiar with their guidelines) - you're opening yourself to legal issues of defamation of character. So just don't do it - it's unfair to the person in the picture and it's a really bad idea. It's not even helping the community at WikiCommons because it's a miscategorization of the image. You don't know that this guy is dumpster diving - you really, really don't. So someone searching for a photograph of someone dumpster diving might pick this up and use it incorrectly because you told them something that's not necessarily true.

Don't do it.

SteveBaker (talk) 13:01, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

So far as I am concerned, the man is not dumpster diving because his feet are on the ground, which negates the possibility of a dive. One has to keep some standards with these things. But having lived in some American urban areas, I think it is quite likely that he is trash picking, and in particular, that he is taking aluminum cans from the dumpster. I'm not saying that makes sense - so far as I've ever been able to tell, the number of cans retrieved by such people is small, mere sacks full as I think we see here, and worth less than two cents each, I think, though it may have gone up quite a bit since the dollar fell. But it was absolutely a routine thing to see, whether that made sense or not. I should add that, based on prior observations, the man's race is absolutely a factor, perhaps the most important factor, in my assumption that is what he is up to. Wnt (talk) 16:43, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Some of my confusion is perhaps clarified by [1]. Wnt (talk) 16:53, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Import tax calculation by engine displacement

Vehicle: 2005 Infiniti FX45 Engine: 4.5L VK45DE V8 Displacement: 4,994 cc (304.8 cu in) Color: Black exterior with black leather interior Destination country: Turkey Origin port: Helen Delich Bentley Port of Baltimore Destination port: Istanbul

What exactly is your question here? Are you trying to figure out how much tax you'll have to pay to import this car into Turkey? If so, then we need more information - according to several websites I've looked at, the rules are different for Turkish citizens who are returning from overseas, the rules are different depending on whether this is the first car you've imported, or the second one. Another person commenting on this remarked: "You need to leave a lump of cash in a bank as a deposit and sort out residency and other things. (not sure if this rule applys to Turkish Nationals though)". SteveBaker (talk) 12:40, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Using images in other works.

Let's say I was making a film, and I wanted to put a picture on the wall in the background. Let's say that picture was A Bigger Splash by David Hockney, then I'm guessing I would need to get permission and clearance for this because it's a copyrighted work by a living artist and someone probably owns the rights to it. But let's say I wanted to use an image of an old woodcut like this from decades long past, by an artist who's dead? Would I be able to freely display it in the background of my film without pissing anyone off?46.208.107.50 (talk) 15:41, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Our Copyright article covers this. But if the picture is old enough to be out of copyright - then there is no problem. Almost everything around us has a copyright owned by someone - the wallpaper on the walls behind the painting, the design of the frame. Copyright law is a tricky thing but it doesn't provide blanket banning of use of such things. Under some circumstances, you might even be able to use the Hockney work. But that gets us into WP:IANAL territory...and we're not allowed to give you legal advice. SteveBaker (talk) 16:30, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Font used in Irish texts

Gaelic fonts

I might be wrong but, I've seen that certain things written in Irish use a characteristic font. Anyone knows the name for it?. Thanks Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 18:45, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

You probably mean Irish uncial. See uncial script and Gaelic type. μηδείς (talk) 18:54, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

yeah, but sometimes they use it in English texts simulating Irish language... I am trying to design some banner for a website I am working on and I need the name. Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 18:57, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Oh, you mean you want to know the name for the computer font? There are dozens of them. If that's what you want you are beter off reposting this at the computer desk. μηδείς (talk) 19:10, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Oooh, okis! Thanks. Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 19:12, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

You could always visit dafont.com and enter keywords like Irish, gaelic etc. into the search. I'm sure they have something suitable 63.95.64.254 (talk) 19:36, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

I would have suggested that - they have around 120 fonts in the "Celtic" section alone. But Miss Bono has repeatedly assured us that she only has Internet access for Wikipedia - so that's probably not a useful answer. SteveBaker (talk) 20:11, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

There are some font names shown on the image that I have added to the top of this thread - it was on the Gaelic type page. Alternatively, you could always write your own - here's how. Alansplodge (talk) 20:28, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Miss Bono has started a thread at the computer desk, so further responses should probably go there. μηδείς (talk) 20:33, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Tips for living without electricity or water utilities

Hi folks. I have another common homeowner question. Many people, due to any number of reasons such as irresponsiblity, lack of funds, or natural disasters, get the water and electricity disconnected to their houses. I was wondering if you all had any handy tips on living without power and water. I've done it a few times and haven't really found it that bad, as long as the weather is not too hot or cold. You can just make sure you have a few candles, hurricane lamps, or flashlights for nighttime, as well as a few gallons of bottled water and a large bowl for washing. It really limits what you can do for solo entertainment after dark at home, however. I've found myself just reading books by candelight or flashlight. For internet use, I just take my laptop to McDonald's or a coffeehouse like Starbucks that offers wi-fi. Does anyone else have any ideas on entertainment options after dark with no electricity? The lack of water for the toilets is not so much of a problem, as being a male I can simply urinate outside. Also, defacation is not a problem. My house has a series of large columns in the back porch, so I just grab onto a column, squat down (on the grassy side not the porch side), and take a dump right there. I bring a few paper towels pre-moistened with a little bottled water (mineral water works well) for wiping. Then the paper towels go in the compost heap. Actually, I have columns on my front porch as well, but I am hesitant to do this in the front of the house since my neighbors might get upset. I've actually lived without power or water for days at a time and never have found it that onerous. In many ways, it's like camping, and furthermore, civilized people lived like that for thousands of years until recently, so it can't be all that bad. Does anyone else know more about how to get by and enjoy life with no power or water? Thanks. Herzlicheboy (talk) 19:38, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure that what you're doing is very "sustainable" - your toilet provisions will get pretty bad (not to mention a rather serious health risk) if you did it for more than a few days. I agree that it's kinda like camping - and that's where your answers come from - and long-term latrine provisions require lots of trench digging. But pretty much everything that works while camping will work in a house without power or water.

For entertainment after dark, without any electricity (I guess using batteries is "cheating" because you'll get through enough of them that it might just be cheaper to pay your electric bill!) - you could certainly get one of those clockwork radios and a wind-up or pump-action flashlight. That covers you for quite a bit of entertainment. If you get bored with reading, you can get puzzle books - or take up some kind of study that entails you doing 'brain work' of some kind. Making things by hand is another good one - whittling wood, weaving, there are a million things people did before modern electronics. Take up a musical instrument - you can easily learn to play most of them in the dark. SteveBaker (talk) 20:08, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

This is not a forum. We don't give personal tips about our own knowledge of how to get get by and enjoy life. You are soliciting opinion and original research. Feel free to solicit, and editors can provide references in regard to factual matters. μηδείς (talk) 20:31, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Here's a page that offers several tips for living without power or water [2]. SemanticMantis (talk) 21:23, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

It is worth noting that a search will pull a well-nigh infinite number of stories about homes "condemned" on account of "human waste". In an urban environment, mishandling of waste is indeed a public health hazard that does need to be taken seriously, but there is also a very strong imperative on the part of city planners to seek out and destroy the poor within their territory before they can drive down tax revenues and increase costs. In the end, every city will either be an enclave reserved for the rich or go the way of Detroit. Anyway, even in the old days people knew to dig a latrine, pit toilet, build an outhouse etc. ... except building one now is almost surely a code violation. Requirements for building a sand mound seem to become more stringent every year, to the point of being a sizable chunk of the total cost of a new home in many areas, and thereby, as a gate against the poor, one of the most fundamental parts of a city's social organization. Wnt (talk) 21:43, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Municipal water is pretty cheap where I live, and I would keep the water service and forgoe electricity if I couldn't afford to pay enough to keep up both services. The problem would come in the 4 months or so where the temperature goes far below freezing where I live, since the modern gas furnace (one more utility) won't run without electricity. ISome states do not allow the electric and gas utilities to disconnect for nonpayment in the winter, so timing is everything if one is a deadbeat. Letting the house get cold and wearing layers would probably keep me alive, if uncomfortable through the winter, but the pipes would freeze and burst unless I left water running or drained the system in the winter. A $150(US) solar panel and controller from a company such as Harbor Freight can run a couple of small fluorescent or LED lights and a 12 volt radio for several hours each evening, and recharge computers and celphones. It should be coupled with a $100 deep cycle battery. An old gas-fired hot water radiator and boiler in a previous house would actually work in a thermosiphon mode with no electricity. A roaring fire in the fireplace is inefficient and the wood is expensive unless you have a source of free firewood. Kerosene heaters are expensive to run and may have carbon monoxide issues. My grandparents got along fine with water from the well, firewood for heat, and an outhouse for sanitation. Numerous ancestors lived into their 80's and 90's with no electricity or running water. In a city, outhouses are likely not permitted, but I know of rural areas in the US where the authorities have no problem with them. Edison (talk) 02:40, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Burning firewood in a typical urban fireplace may not help. The majority of the heat rises up the chimney and pulls air to replace it through cracks in outside doors, windows and other venting systems - this produces nasty drafts and can actually result in heat that's accumulated in the house during the day being replaced by cold air at night - producing a net decrease in temperature everywhere except right in front of the fire where radiant heat is produced. You can buy heat exchangers that pump air from the room through a series of steel tubes that form the base of the fireplace and produce a stream of hot air back into the room to counteract this effect - but those things require electricity - and may actually be damaged if you don't run them continuously whenever the fire is lit. There was a Mythbusters episode that demonstrated this cooling effect of an open fireplace very elegantly. An old-fashioned cast-iron wood-burning stove is a much better choice...and has the advantage that you can more easily cook food on it and heat water for a hot water bottle too. SteveBaker (talk) 14:09, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

If you get a rainwater harvesting barrel, see [3], you can use water from that to flush your toilet. This would obviate the risks of using the outdoors (health and legal). And, as mentioned above, a fire place is quite inefficient, but a wood burner [4] is quite decent at providing heat, you could look into obtaining one of these- in my area, it's relatively cheap to get wood for the cold times, or at least it's cheaper than the gas bill would be.Phoenixia1177 (talk) 06:35, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Don't urinate outside. If somebody sees you and calls the cops, in the US you can be put on the sexual offenders list for "exposing yourself", which will follow you for life. Instead, pee in a jar and dump it outside. I would go elsewhere to defecate, like a gas station, etc. (and just to be extra nice, actually use their toilet). StuRat (talk) 07:26, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Do you guys not use the term "bathroom" for such a place? Or it that confined to houses, where there is at least some possibility a bath will be found in the room? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:37, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

In the US, "bathroom" tends to mean a room with a toilet in it (WC to you). Strangely, it need not include either a bath or shower, in which case it's called a "half-bath". An outdoor area for relieving oneself wouldn't properly be called a "bathroom", but you could call it that by analogy, just as you could call your tent the "bedroom", if you wanted to. StuRat (talk) 03:27, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

As for temperature control, you will find that parts of your house are hotter or colder at different times of the day. Each side will be hottest when the sunlight is on it or a few hours after, due to thermal lag. In addition, heat rises, so the upper floors will be hotter. So, by moving around you are more likely to find a comfortable temp at any given point. You can also open windows to cool it down at night, provided it's not humid or raining out. StuRat (talk) 07:53, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Blue Jays World Series

There is always some hand-wringing here in Canada ever year that goes by without a Canadian team winning the Stanley Cup. When the Toronto Blue Jays won their consecutive World Series in the early '90s, was there any similar reaction in the US about their National Pastime being won by a "foreign" entity? Or did they not care at all aside from the usual disappointment that their given home team didn't win? Mingmingla (talk) 23:19, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

It was noted, of course, that they were the first non-US team to win the Series. But I don't recall any particular angst about it. Maybe that would have changed if it had become a habit. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:55, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Hard to see it as really parallel. The NHL has (last I checked) 80% of its teams in the US. Why, someone might get confused about which nation the "National" part of the name refers to. On the other hand, MLB has exactly one team (formerly two) outside US borders. Even if the Blue Jays were to hit a hot stretch, they'd never be a threat to the national identity of the sport or the organization. --Trovatore (talk) 00:00, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

• Well there had to be a reason we hung your flag upside down. Hot Stop talk-contribs 01:15, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Hard for them southerners to get antsy when Rob Butler was the only Canuck on the team (according to his article). Clarityfiend (talk) 01:20, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Their pitching ace, Jimmy Key, was from Alabama. Of additional interest to a Canada-based team winning the series was the first black manager to lead a team to the championship. Cito Gaston was likewise born just a bit south of the US-Canada border, in Texas. In reality, MLB is an international enterprise, drawing players from all over the world, or at least the parts of the world where baseball is big: the far east, and Latin America. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:09, 12 September 2013 (UTC)