Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2018 July 28
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July 28
[edit]Accentuation of maíz
[edit]Dear all, how many syllables are there in the Spanish word for corn? I'm aware that words ending in all consonants but "s" and "n" should be accentuated on the last syllable, but also know that weak vowels ("i" and "u") shouldn't be accentuated when next to the strong ones ("a", "e", "o").
Looking forward to your insight. 93.140.112.32 (talk) 13:25, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
- Without the accent, the "ai" would be read as a single syllable, a diphthong with stress on the strong vowel "a" and a non-syllabic "i". The accent makes sure the /i/ is read as the vowel of a separate (and stressed) syllable, /maˈiθ/ (that's /maˈis/ with seseo). See Spanish orthography. --Theurgist (talk) 13:45, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
- French does the same thing - maïs - but with the diaeresis to mark the double vowel sounds. Wymspen (talk) 16:56, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
Sidetrack discussion that has nothing to do with pronunciation Akld guy (talk) 05:43, 29 July 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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- Thank you both. I'd rate my Spanish as low advanced or advanced medium (perhaps brilliant and mediocre at the same time?!). Thought my understanding of two rules from the original question would have sufficed in understanding the reasoning behind this, but was baffled to learn of "acento tónico", "hiato" and alike. 93.140.112.32 (talk) 14:03, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
- Two. Mexican Spanish /maˈis/. We shouldn't give this with Castilian Spanish pronunciation. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 14:51, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
- Why's that, if you don't mind me asking? 93.140.112.32 (talk) 15:23, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
- Because maize is from Mexico maybe?·maunus · snunɐɯ· 15:25, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
- So what? maíz is the standard term for the thing even in Spain. Besides, /maˈiθ/ is a better diaphonemic transcription, because the Mexican pronunciation is derivable from it – you just have to replace the /θ/ with a /s/ – whereas /maˈis/ doesn't tell you whether or not to replace the /s/ with a /θ/ so as to get the Castilian pronunciation. --Theurgist (talk) 16:26, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
- "So what" because it's the equivalent of giving the pronunciation of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania in Scottish English. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 15:40, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
- I don't see those as equivalent. Not sure why you picked Scottish, so could be I've missed some aspect of your point.
- But in any case Pittsburgh is part of the United States, whereas corn is not part of Mexico. I expect they eat corn in Spain also, though I don't know enough about Spanish cuisine to name a particular dish. If we were to discuss the Spanish pronunciation in English Wikipedia (which I'm not sure why we would, outside the refdesk), it would make sense to give both pronunciations. --Trovatore (talk) 20:07, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
- "So what" because it's the equivalent of giving the pronunciation of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania in Scottish English. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 15:40, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
- So what? maíz is the standard term for the thing even in Spain. Besides, /maˈiθ/ is a better diaphonemic transcription, because the Mexican pronunciation is derivable from it – you just have to replace the /θ/ with a /s/ – whereas /maˈis/ doesn't tell you whether or not to replace the /s/ with a /θ/ so as to get the Castilian pronunciation. --Theurgist (talk) 16:26, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
- Because maize is from Mexico maybe?·maunus · snunɐɯ· 15:25, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
- Why's that, if you don't mind me asking? 93.140.112.32 (talk) 15:23, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
- off topic:
- In German, the term Mais is used, whatever the original etymology may be. In Austria we call it Kukuruz, which seems to be of S-Slavic, thence possibly Turkic origin. Probably a left-over from Ottoman attempts to expand into late medieval Europe, but I cannot find any proper references. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 17:13, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
and these two enquiries:
In Portuguese, as I remember, words which end in "i", "im", "is", "l", "ns", "r" or "z", or whose final syllable includes a vowel with a tilde over it, are stressed on the final syllable. Everything else is stressed on the penult, and a word which does not follow the rule has a stress accent (acute, circumflex or grave) over the stressed vowel. Hence, after the spelling reform, the word portuguez, for example, became português. The circumflex is frequently used before a following "m" or "n", for example cutâneo. Are there any other languages where the position of the stress is determined by which letter ends up the word?
- 86.176.18.217 18:31, 7 February 2018
Looking at my copy of One Hundred Years of Solitude by Gabriel García Márquez, I see that the middle name has a stress accent over the "i". Our article on García II, first king of Portugal, has the accent but on pt:wp it doesn't (because that's what the rule says). The Portuguese equivalent of Márquez is Marques and again, in accordance with the rule, it has no accent. How does the Spanish rule differ from the Portuguese one?
- 81.151.129.230 16:11, 11 February 2018
- The rules are detailed at Spanish orthography#Stress and accentuation and Portuguese orthography#Diacritics.
- In both languages, the main function of the orthographic accents is to indicate a stressed syllable whose position disobeys certain patterns for stress placement within the word. Those patterns are based on the final letter of the word and on the position of the stressed syllable. Words that do obey the patterns generally don't have orthographic accents.
- These patterns don't count an accent-less "i" or "u" next to another vowel as forming a separate syllable in Spanish (so García requires the accent but Croacia doesn't), but they do in Portuguese (so Garcia doesn't need one but Croácia does). Márquez has the accent as it ends with a "z", while Marques doesn't have it as it ends with an "s". The bolded syllables are stressed, and note that the u's in Márquez and Marques are silent and so don't count at all.
- As far as vowels are concerned, Spanish makes use just of the acute accent, while Portuguese uses a more complex system of diacritical marks. In fact Spanish also has the letter ü, but it serves a function unrelated to the stress. --Theurgist (talk) 20:11, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
- The above discussion is all over the place. The question was: "how many syllables are there in the Spanish word for corn?" The answer is: maíz has two syllables, regardless of Spanish country. Maíz is two syllables in Spain and two syllables in Mexico. The weak vowels ("i" and "u") always form diphthongs when next to another vowel (ai, ei, oi, ui, ia, ie, io, iu); and a diphthong resides in a single syllable. However, if an acute accent is added to a weak vowel, it turns it into a strong vowel, and two strong vowels together are always considered to belong to two separate syllables: aí, eí, oí, uí, ía, íe, ío, íu). —Stephen (talk) 21:32, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
- See Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2017 June 7#When did the meaning of corn shift to maize in American English? and Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Science/2017 June 7#Original meaning of "corn" in corn flakes?.
- In Portuguese we may have three successive vowels, with an accent on the first (e.g. jóia, "jewel"). Can this happen in other languages? Often the accent marks the disappearance of a preceding consonant, e.g. baía, "bay", (missing h), juízes, "judges", (L. acc. sing. iudicem), raízes, "roots", (L. radicem). Most frequently the missing consonant is l: (saúde, "health", L. salutem, dor, "pain", L. dolorem, muitos, "many", L. acc. pl. multos). In French the missing consonant is often an s, e.g. août, "August", L. Augustus, maître, "master", L. magistrum. A missing g features in German - Mädchen, "maiden". Are there other examples? 86.131.233.223 (talk) 18:05, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
- The above discussion is all over the place. The question was: "how many syllables are there in the Spanish word for corn?" The answer is: maíz has two syllables, regardless of Spanish country. Maíz is two syllables in Spain and two syllables in Mexico. The weak vowels ("i" and "u") always form diphthongs when next to another vowel (ai, ei, oi, ui, ia, ie, io, iu); and a diphthong resides in a single syllable. However, if an acute accent is added to a weak vowel, it turns it into a strong vowel, and two strong vowels together are always considered to belong to two separate syllables: aí, eí, oí, uí, ía, íe, ío, íu). —Stephen (talk) 21:32, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
Reglos
[edit]In irgendeinem Gedicht gibs das Wort "reglos." Ist das nur immer «ohne sich zu bewegen» oder kann das auch «ohne zu regeln» oder noch was anderes bedeuten? Temerarius (talk) 18:20, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
Unwelcome interjection from the unqualified. Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 21:10, 28 July 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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reglos = regungslos, unbeweglich (Wahrig Deutsches Wörterbuch) (motionless or immovable)----Ehrenkater (talk) 20:38, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
By the way, you could also have looked here: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/reglos ----Ehrenkater (talk) 20:47, 28 July 2018 (UTC)