Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 November 8

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November 8

yes or no

Hello everybody, when someone asks me "Nobody?", I should answer "Yes, nobody." or "No, nobody." ? À la 雞 (talk) 03:27, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

• "Yes, nobody" means, you are correct; I said nobody. "No, nobody" reaffirms the fact that the answer is negative. Both answers are possible and grammatical. But if you really want to avoid any ambiguity, you might try, "Correct; nobody." This lets the speaker know that you are not disagreeing with his understanding. μηδείς (talk) 05:37, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Are you sure "Yes, nobody" is ambiguous? I suspect it is a definitely clear answer. Further, even "yes" alone is clear and unambiguous, at least in my opinion.

Btw, I could have better understood the OP's question, if they'd asked about someone who asks: "it's not, is it?", or "it is, isn't it?" HOOTmag (talk) 08:04, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

"Correct" works in more situations, and is therefore a good word to make a habit of using. In answer to "Nobody?", "Yes" works, "Nobody" works, and "Yes, nobody" works. All these are better than "right", because that word is directional as well, and if you use it habitually, it can flub you up when you are a navigator. "Go left?"   "Right".   Then he turns right.   "I said go left!"   "No, you said 'right'! Now where do we go?"   "Make a left and then another left".   "Two lefts?"   "Right."   The Transhumanist 08:42, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

When someone asks me "You have no idea?", I should answer "Yes, I have no idea." or "No, I have no idea."? À la 雞 (talk) 13:38, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Both are OK. You can also say "No, I have an idea." but you can't say "Yes, I have an idea." KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 14:26, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

??? What do you answer then to the question "You have no idea?", if you do have an idea? Akseli9 (talk) 15:20, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

??? "No, I have an idea"? Really? Akseli9 (talk) 15:20, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

"No, I do have an idea", or "No, I actually do have an idea" would make it unambiguous. Tevildo (talk) 16:49, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm sure what Akseli9 has meant is that, you cannot disagree with the statement "you have no idea", by your saying "no" (no matter what follows this "no"). In other words, Akseli9 claims that your saying "no" - actually approves of the statement "you have no idea"...

Akseli, am I right? Is that what you've meant? HOOTmag (talk) 17:20, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

I cannot be so affirmative, but at least I found it enough ambiguous (thus inefficient or misleading) to ask for a confirmation from others (thanks Tevildo). Akseli9 (talk) 20:33, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

I like to use the word "Indeed" in this context...either alone, or more redundantly: "Yes, indeed". SteveBaker (talk) 15:10, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Alternatively, "I have a cunning plan, Captain Blackadder". KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 16:14, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

When someone asks me "Don't you like it?", I must answer as "No, I don't like it", it's only the word not which is accorded with no? The word never is accorded with yes or no ? For example: Never? - Yes, never, right? À la 雞 (talk) 02:04, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

You are best off trying to access a native English speaker for this, since learning idiomatic English through the ref desks is not the best method for you, and is ultimately disruptive here, where we try to address limited questions and those that can be answered by references.

We have articles like yes-no question, but they are general in aspect. As for the specific question, "Don't you like it?" the idiomatic responses would either be, "Yes, I do" or "No, I don't." But if you need practice with this a tutor, a textbook, or a good ESL website would be best. μηδείς (talk) 02:29, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

On negative questions, I just drop the yes and no altogether and say it as it is: "Nobody." "I have no idea." "I don't like it." etc. --Lgriot (talk) 13:51, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Many languages are able to avoid this ambiguity by offering a word besides "yes" and "no" for the purpose of responding in the contrary to a negatively-worded question. See, for example, translations and a usage note at wikt:yes. StevenJ81 (talk) 19:06, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Welsh has no word for "yes" at all. Q: Ydych chi'n hoffi coffi (Do you like coffee?) A: Ydw (I do). Alansplodge (talk) 21:47, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

I guess it does have a word for "correct" (or "right"), doesn't it? HOOTmag (talk) 02:31, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

@KageTora: I try not to give out my personal details on the internet, but I'll make an exception in this case. I admit that my extended family are all very fond of word games. I have a punning clan. Shirt58 (talk) 09:22, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

@Shirt58:, Very droll KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 22:48, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

In Finnish, the normal way to say "yes" is to repeat the affirmative verb, and the normal way to say "no" is to repeat the negative verb. There is a word "kyllä" that almost means "yes", but you use it only in case you really need to say "yes indeed". Akseli9 (talk) 08:35, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

In Japanese, 'hai' affirms the question, and 'iie' negates it. Very difficult to get used to. For example, if someone says 'ikanai no?' ('Aren't you going?'), you would say 'hai', if you are not going and 'iie' if you are going. If someone says 'iku no' ('Are you going?'), you would say 'hai' if you are going, and 'iie' if you are not going. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 22:52, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

In informal Australian English, "yeah, nah" is a valid negative response to a question. "Yeah" acknowledging the initial question and "nah" disagreeing. Hack (talk) 17:45, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

It's not as simple as that, Hack. A lot's been written about the Aussie "yeah, nah" or "yeah, no". It can just as often be a positive response as a negative response. For ex, "You must be excited about becoming a member of the senior team" - Yeah, no, it's great. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:22, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

A spectrogram riddle

What sentence does the spectrogram here show? [1]

First there seems to be a diphthong, probably [ai]. Then there is a stop which is unvoiced but only weakly aspirated; [p] or [k]? Then a vowel which might be [i] or [ɪ] - but there is some movement of the formants. Then an [s] (or possibly a [z]). Then there is a short segment which looks like an [l]. This continues into what is presumably a diphthong - maybe nother [ai]? Then we get a stop - or conceivably just a pause. The formants before the stop might be forming a velar pinch so [k] is a possibility. But, again, there is no visible release burst so maybe it's just a pause. Then we have another [s] or [z]. At this point we get a sequence of what I think are five voiced segments. First, I guess, a vowel like [æ] - or maybe just a [ə]. Then something I'm totally unsure about. Is it a vowel or an [l] or an [r] or even a [v] or an [ð]? Then probably another front vowel or a [ə] and then a segment which seems to grow rather faint and might be a [v]. And finally yet another vowel close to [æ]. Afther this we have a distinct [s], then a voiceless stop and another distinct [s].

This is supposed to be "an ordinary English sentence containing no names" but what does it say? I can't really trace a convincing sentence through this. The first words might be "I kiss" or "I tease"? Presumably not "I piss". Then maybe "like"? And at the end a word like "wastes" or "nests" or something.

Background: I'm teaching a phonetics course and I'm not really qualified to do so! The regular professor got ill. Haukur (talk) 13:51, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

"I dislike some linguists."[2].--Shantavira|^{feed me} 14:59, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Thank you! That was extremely helpful. What really tripped me up here were the voiced plosives and the nasals. Thank you again. Haukur (talk) 15:11, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Trouble at t'Mill

OK - so when I hear the phrase "Trouble at t'Mill" (or "Trouble at Mill") - I immediately think of the Monty Python sketch HERE, pr the transcript HERE. However, it's pretty clear from the context that Monty Python's writers thought this was an oft-cliched line...but I can't figure out where it's from.

If I look up Trouble at Mill here on Wikipedia, I get redirected to an Aardman animation film that briefly had that as a working title...seems like a poor redirect for such an obscure fact about the movie...

Google searches don't turn up much of use other than it's an archaic Yorkshire term meaning "some kind of screwup happened" - but one forum poster said that: "From the 1890s to the 1940s at least, there was an entire subgenre of English Fiction referred to by this title, ranging from very cheap magazine stories to respectable middlebrow novels. Even the 1940/50s novelist Thomas Armstrong, writing of Northern manufacturing folk in dynasties of wool and cotton comes vaguely into this category.".

If that's true, then we surely should have an article about this "subgenre" of English literature (with references to Monty Python and the Aardman link) rather than the crappy link to a very obscure fact about an entirely unrelated movie.

Can anyone fill in more background? Maybe kick off a decent article? SteveBaker (talk) 15:01, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

I also found Inheritance (TV series) which claims to have made the phrase into a popular catch-phrase - which could easily be what MontyPython were parodying...but that's at odds with the idea of the "entire subgenre of English fiction" thing. SteveBaker (talk) 15:04, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

I found this user group which quotes the Oxford English Dictionary's earliest reference: "1967 J. WINTON H.M.S.Leviathan xx. 333 He replaced the receiver, and assumed a passable Yorkshire accent. 'Ah'm sorry, lass, but there's trouble down at t'mill... It looks as if we've got to go to sea in a hurry.'" However, several respondents to the same thread claim to be able to remember it being used in the 1950s, perhaps by music hall comedians. Alansplodge (talk) 15:38, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

That would rule out an entire subgenre of literature having that name. To me it sounds like something out of Dickens...but I'm sure OED would have found something that obvious. SteveBaker (talk) 15:47, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

I would have said that the Winton quote is dependant on his readers' prior knowledge of the phrase, but how you prove that, I don't know. Google hasn't found me anything earlier so far. Alansplodge (talk) 15:57, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

The 1965 book "The Road to Number 10" refers to "the novels of Thomas Armstrong—mostly trouble-at-mill Yorkshire sagas". --Canley (talk) 06:11, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

According to Urban dictionary (link): trouble at the mill: Archaic term originating in the industrial North of England. Similar in meaning to the shit hit the fan. The mill, a textile mill or factory. --NorwegianBlue ^talk 16:02, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

I always assumed it was something out of D. H. Lawrence or Thomas Hardy or John Braine or some other gloom-meister of that ilk. Even John Osborne. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 02:34, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

• For those unfamiliar with a Yorkshire accent, see this sketch with Marty Feldman and some other guys and listen for expressions such as "a whole in t'roof". (They are not fully consistent with this, but you can catch it if you pay attention.) μηδείς (talk) 03:20, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

I guess you mean "The Four Yorkshiremen"; did you mean to include a link? —Tamfang (talk) 07:26, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Argh! Yes. And they say "t'mill" several times. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKHFZBUTA4k. μηδείς (talk) 14:57, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

That's a bit like using Dick Van Dyke as an example of a Cockney. In a modern Yorkshire dialect, the "t" for "the" (apparently called Definite article reduction) isn't really sounded in most cases, but replaced by a kind of glottal stop, called a laryngeal consonant according to this source; Overview of Definite Article Reduction. Alansplodge (talk) 16:28, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

I did take it for granted, @Alansplodge: that people would realize the accents were being put on--and Feldman's was 'orrific. I am curious, is the character who uses "thou" (mostly "art", actually) on Last of the Summer Wine supposed to be a Yorkshireman? If not, where is he from? μηδείς (talk) 01:17, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Thee and thou are (or were, until a generation or two ago) still used in Yorkshire and Lancashire. See Thou#Current usage Smurrayinchester 16:44, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Punch (magazine) (Volume 240 page 272) had "the pantomimes, the trouble-at-t'-mill novels" in 1961, and, in 1958, Elections: CORRESPONDENT HALIFAX, Oct. 2: "The shadowy outlines of bare moorland at the ends of the streets, gaunt mills, and steep cobbled streets of stone cottages are the traditional standbys of the " trouble at t' mill " school of regional novelists" so it was obviously a common phrase before the 1960s.

In 1885, Evelyn Whitaker used "Trouble at the Mill" as a chapter title in Our Little Ann. Dbfirs 09:27, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Well done Dbfirs; enough for an article yet? Alansplodge (talk) 16:30, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

There some info (added by me) at Wiktionary: wikt:trouble at mill Smurrayinchester 16:42, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Without having the time to plough through them all ,trouble at't mill,was a theme in many of Elizabeth Gaskell novels.Though the Python team used a Yorkshire accent,that contraction is also heard in Manchester accents.Googling the phrase finds lots of links pointing to her work.Hotclaws (talk) 15:04, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Meaning of a word used in King Lear

Posted on behalf of 184.147.131.85, as this page is, unfortunately, semi-protected for another five days. ---Sluzzelin talk 16:49, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

When Shakespeare wrote "Her voice was ever soft, gentle and low", what did he mean by "low"? Could it had had the two meanings it does now (low in volume, and also low in pitch) or would he have meant one or the other? Thank you. 184.147.131.85 (talk) 16:45, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, which uses this phrase as an example, it means "not loud", i.e. low in volume. - Lindert (talk) 17:08, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. Unless this was one of Shakespeare's cross-dressing characters, one would assume her to have a normal female voice, so not low in pitch. StuRat (talk) 07:55, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

I wouldn't assume that at all. In Shakespeare's time, the character would always have been played by a boy or teen. His voice might well have broken; the audience might well be hearing a speaker low in pitch. That's why I'm asking if "low in pitch" was a possible reading for the word in 1606. Appreciate the reference from Lindert. 184.147.131.85 (talk) 12:39, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

But why would Shakespeare specify that the actor, regardless of actual gender, should try to portray a male voice, unless the character was supposed to be male (or be pretending to be male) ? If you have males playing the roles of females, then you want it to be as realistic as possible, including a female voice. StuRat (talk) 21:29, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

And normal female voices certainly can be described as low in pitch as well as in volume. Ask any alto. Volume, however, clearly makes more sense in this context. - Nunh-huh 13:45, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

An interesting discussion, by Sibylle Baumbach, here. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:56, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Thank you!184.147.131.85 (talk) 19:41, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

• I'll simply point out that while people do refer to low tones, they normally say someone has a deep, voice, not a low voice, when talking of pitch. I find women with deep voices far more attractive, for example, than women with simply low voices.

I would think Sotto voce is the intention. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:41, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

We're not interested in what the modern usage of 'low' is. The question was what Shakespeare meant. FYI, Shakespeare lived several hundred years ago. Akld guy (talk) 21:24, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Shazam! ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:47, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Really?? What about his sister!? "Several hundred years", my arse. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:51, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Tfal in Arabic writing

Could you please show me how is Tfail"s, a Lebanese village's name is spelled in its original language, Arabic? Thank you for your help in advance. --Ksanyi (talk) 20:37, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

ط -ف -ي -ل) -- طفیل). --Omidinist (talk) 05:13, 9 November 2015 (UTC)